My last total pay with the Waffen-SS as a colonel was approximately six hundred and fifty to seven hundred marks per month.
Q. What would have been your pay if you had joined the Wehrmacht at the beginning of the war?
A. I had already stated that at the beginning of the war I would have joined the army as a captain in the reserve. In the course of the years, if I would have been paid as a man who was doing front-line duty, I would have received the same amount as I did in the Waffen-SS.
Q. Did you participate in any Aryanization?
A. No, I had nothing to do with those things.
Q. Did you have any powers to impose punishments, and that in a military or civilian respect?
A. During my membership in the Waffen-SS I had the power to inflict punishment only once, and that right was that of a company commander. That was doing my membership in the Waffen-SS division, as the man in charge of the food office. Apart from that, during the entire time of my membership in the SS I had no powers to inflict punishment, and as chief of an office in the WVHA I could not punish anybody either. I didn't have any powers or the authority to arrest a civilian. I had no authority whatsoever to do so. I only had the authority that every officer in the Wehrmacht had.
Q. Did you participate in the excesses of the 9th of November, 1938?
A. No. During my entire membership in the SS, and also prior to that, I never participated in excesses against Jews or people who had different political ideas than I did. On that famous Sunday, or rather on the 9th to the 10th of November, 1938, I was in Nurnberg. I only heard about the excesses early in the morning when I arrived to my office. I was not on duty. The administrative officers were never forced to be on duty.
In connection with these excesses I can recall one case very well. An administrative officer in Nurnberg, that is an SS-administrative officer, on that particular night had entered a Jewish apartment. He was reported, and he was interrogated by the leader of that particular division, and I was present during that interrogation. He was immediately placed before a regular court, and according to my recollection he was sentenced to three to four years imprisonment.
Q. What sources of information were at your disposal as an SS-leader?
A. In my position as Chief of Office A-1, I only received orders and accepted those which dealt with my field of tasks. Apart from that I know all the general orders which appeared in the current publications of the Waffen-SS and of the army, for instance, the Verordnungblatt of the Waffen-SS, Regulations Gazette of the Waffen-SS, and the Army Gazette, the General Army Information, and similar gazettes. Secret matters were only brought to the knowledge of those officers who had something to do with them, and they were strictly obligated to keep them secret. Apart from that I only had two sources of information at my disposal, namely newspapers and radio. As far as listening to enemy radios and enemy broadcasts was concerned, we were forbidden to do so under punishment. If anyone would have turned me, an SSleader, in and stated that I had listened to an enemy broadcasting station, I probably would have been punished more severely than any other German.
Q. During your activity, did any orders become known to you, the execution of which can be considered to be a crime against humanity and war crimes?
A. No, during my entire activity in the SS I never heard of any such orders.
Q. What was your training, or of what did your training consist as an SS-leader?
A. Well, as far as the actual SS schools are concerned, we hardly received any as administrative leaders. We had so much work to do that we hardly participated in any such courses.
During my activity with the General-SS I can only recall one course, and that was, I believe, in 1938 here near Nurnberg, and that course actually consisted of nothing more than a tale of the ancient history of the Germans, and also of a visit of old ruins in this area. In the WaffenSS and during the war we had no courses whatsoever, nor did we receive any training.
Q. Do you know anything about the preparations for the war, or did anything strike you?
A. No. In the General-SS we only engaged in sports, small-caliber shooting, and shooting with pistols.
Q. What about the invasion of Austria and Czechoslovakia?
A. We also only found out in the morning through the radio. Furthermore, I would like to add that the Reich Party Rally in 1939? where I had to see to it that the SS people had their food and their billets, worked out normally until the 30th of September 1939.
Q. You mean the 30th of August, don't you?
A. Yes, I mean the 30th of August. I am sorry. I made a mistake. We had all the food supplies stored here in Nurnberg. All the preparatory detachments had already arrived so that none of us could expect that there would be a war.
I would like to point out one more case here at the present moment, that after the campaign in France I was ordered back to Nurnberg, I believe that was in July, 1940, in order to organize a Reichs Party Rally for 1940. I was in Nurnberg for a approximately four to five weeks in that particular detachment, or rather on that task, and it was only after five weeks the preparations were discontinued and we were told that Hitler's proposal for peace to his enemies had not been accepted.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Did anything change in your official capacity or activity after the annexation of the inspectorate of the concentration camps as Amtsgruppe D into the WVHA?
A There was no change in the administration. The inspectorate of the concentration camps was taken over with its own administration and this administration worked on just as it had before. I had similar work to do with the administrative officers of the concentration camps; namely, insofar as army administration matters were concerned which were a part of my field of task.
Q How was it with the forms of the concentration camps; you mentioned those yesterday.
A I have already stressed yesterday that all the forms of the concentration camps actually were in contradiction with all the other forms of the Waffen-SS. They were printed in their own publishing houses in the concentration camps, and never became known to us.
Q Were you in any connection whatsoever with the economic enterprises of the SS?
A No. I had nothing to do with the Sector W. It did not deal with the budget of the Waffen-SS, and, therefore, I couldn't give you any information whatsoever about that Sector. I only knew the organizational charts and its sub-divisions. However, I never dealt with that matter.
Q How was it with the deportation of the civilian inhabitants from the occupied territories?
A I never dealt with that matter.
Q Confiscation of property abroad?
A I had nothing to do with that either, nor did I have any right to do so.
Q And with the Prisoners of War?
A I had nothing to do with them either.
Q Were you in any connection with the labor assignment of inmates?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A I knew that the inmates in the concentration camps were being used for labor; it was known to me that as far as labor allocation was concerned--certain monetary amounts were transferred to the Reich due to the labor. And that was the nucleus of the Reich Finance Ministry. I was interested in it insofar that the funds that were coming in to the bank were transferred to the Reich. I did not have any influence whatsoever on the amounts, that the inmates were getting any part of their pay, if the inmates themselves received anything at all from all that money, I did not know. Nor did I know anything at all, and nor did I have any influence as to how the inmates were used when working.
Q Didn't you participate in the reorganization of the wagescales for inmates? You saw a document here containing a file note of your co-defendant Baier, according to which your participation had been planned.
A I know that file note from the documents. It says that Pohl wanted to have my assistance while reorganizing the wage-scale. However, I never joined him because shortly afterwards I received the order to participate in the simplification of the administration of the organization TODT; and I can only understand the whole case to be that Pohl wanted to consult me. I had experience in the conditions of the workers who were being used in the Reich enterprises. There was quite a book about it, the so-called TOA, the wage-scales for workers. And I assume that some of these regulations were to be taken over into this new camp regulation book. However, I would like to stress again that I never participated. Who worked out this new regulation, I couldn't tell you.
Q Did you know of the medical and biological experiments of the concentration camps, or the so-called Euthanasia program? Did you know of them at the time?
A No.
Q Witness, I shall now proceed to a few documents which were Court No. II, Case No. 4.introduced by the Prosecution, and which refer to you.
I have one question to ask you about the chart on the wall here; that is the question which I already asked the defendant Frank, which, however, I would like to have clarified by you also. You are mentioned there as Chief of Office A-2 from 1943 to 1945. How is that?
A I have already stated during my examination yesterday that the chief of Amt A-2 was only transferred at Easter of '44 in order to save personnel in that office. After the transfer of Eckert, the Planning Office remained vacant, and from that moment on I supervised along with my other tasks, Amt A-2. If the chart had been shown to me before, I would have drawn your attention to that mistake. However, I only just saw this chart here in this Tribunal when it was introduced in evidence.
Q Did you become a deputy of the defendant Fanslau when in the summer of 1944 he was charged with supervising the affairs as Chief of Amtsgruppe A?
A Yes; I was a deputy according to my position. However, I never was appointed as deputy. At the time due to my activity with the OT, the organization TODT, I was absent from Berlin about twothirds of the time. It practically worked out in such a manner that when Fanslau was absent some other leader--either I or the chief of Amt A-3 had to be present. Apart from that, the activity had been restricted in such a way in the offices A-1, 2, and 3, and furthermore A-4 was no longer in Berlin--that there was not very much deputizing to be done.
Q What was the title which you used when signing for the General SS after Frank had been transferred to the Police?
A The name of it used to be Reich Treasury Administrator of the SS. That name, in the autumn of 1943 was changed to Administrative Chief of the General SS. In other words, in contradiction to the Waffen-SS, when Frank was transferred to the Police, I became deputy in his place in the Administration of the General-SS, and was thus sub Court No. II, Case No. 4.ordinated directly to Pohl.
I signed as such, namely, Administrative Chief of the General-SS in deputizing: I.V. (in Vertretung.)
Q The defendant Sommer in his affidavit, which is is Document Book No. 1, and which was introduced as Exhibit No. 13, Document 1578; on page 64 of the English Document Book and on page 78 of the German text has stated in that affidavit that the income for the use of inmates was transferred through the WVHA to the Reich. Is that correct?
A No; that is not correct. I assume that the defendant Sommer made a mistake here because he probably does not know the budgetary regulations. All income of the Reich had to be immediately transferred by the treasury which received it. In other words, if the treasury of the concentration camp Oranienburg had received an amount of 2,000,000 RM for inmate labor, then that amount had to be transferred immediately and directly to the Reich Main Treasury. The WVHA did not participate in that.
Q In Document Book No. 21, you will find Exhibit 41, Document 504, on page 75 of the German and on page 70 of the English Document Books. There you will find a report by Pohl to Himmler concerning the budgetary negotiations which had been carried out with the economic leader of Germany in 1942. What can you tell us about it?
A These negotiations with the Reich Minister of Finance were the only action in which Office A-1, as a budgetary office, actually appeared. This is the chart for the planning offices during peacetime. Furthermore, it can be seen from this document quite clearly that the Waffen-SS during the war had an open budget because no negotiations were carried out about any fixed amounts during these budgetary negotiations. Furthermore, it was the only and the last budgetary negotiation with the Reich Minister of Finance during the war. Later on, there were no more budgetary conferences. The peacetime planning offices had no influence on anything during the war because during the war they did not work according to peacetime standards, but Court No. II, Case No. 4.only according to war planning agencies.
Those things were not subject to the approval by the Reich Finance Minister. Every main office chief himself could set up this thing and approve it. The SS Operational Main Office was competent for the SS.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q In Document Book No. 3, you will find as Exhibit 75, Document NO-2327 on page 121 of the German and page 109 of the English Document Book, the affidavit of Pister. In this affidavit, Pister states that you had participated in the regular conferences with the concentration camp commandants. Is that correct?
A No, Pister must have made a mistake here, or otherwise it is a lie. At no time did I participate in a conference of the commanders, nor did I participate in any conference of Amtsgruppe D. I was never ordered to do so. In other words, I was never called upon to do so, and, furthermore, I had no business there. Furthermore, I only knew Pister from sight and I believe I only saw him once or twice in my life.
Q Is it possible that Pister confused the official conferences here with some sort of a comradely or social meeting?
A I assume that Pister got those two things confused and that he probably was thinking about that social dinner which Pohl mentioned during his examination when I met Pister.
Q During this dinner did you speak about the treatment of concentration camp inmates and about the conditions in the camps?
A No. No, we were glad we were off duty and that then we didn't have to talk shop. Apart from that, during special meetings all the commanders of the individual office groups were sitting together.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH (ATTORNEY FOR HANS LOERNER): Your Honor, I shall introduce an affidavit by Pister, together with my document book, which will confirm this defendant's statement.
Q Witness, in Document Book No. 4, Exhibit 86, we have Document 517. It is on page 46 of the German and 34 of the English text. There is a file note in it by the defendant Baier and that file note is about some camp regulation of the inmates and it says there, "Furthermore Oberfuehrer Loerner is also to be included in this." When this camp regulation was set up, did you participate in it and did Court No. II, Case No. 4.it deal with the wages of the inmates which we have previously discussed?
A During my previous answer concerning labor assignment, I thought of this document. It's the same matter and I have stated what the reasons are for my assumption that Pohl wanted to consult me. However, this never did happen.
Q Exhibit 78, that is Document NO-2117 on page 4 of the German and on page 3 of the English Document Book No. 4 is a letter dated the 2nd of September, 1942, to the Reich Auditing Court of the German Reich and it deals with the repayment of an amount amounting to 300,000 Reichsmarks to the Police Treasury in Danzig for the Labor Camp of Stutthof. This letter is signed by you. What does it deal with and what do you wish to tell us about it?
A I shall have to go into detail about this. As can be seen from various documents already in the years of 1940 and 1941, by the Amt. A-II, the Office Budget and Construction, conferences were carried out that the Labor Camp at Stutthof should be changed into a concentration camp. At that time I did not participate. I never was a member of the Office of Budget and Construction. After the establishment of the WVHA, a report from the Auditing Court in that matter, was transferred to Office A-IV. It was not a matter which was dealt with by Office A-IV, because it referred to funds for the Police. In that report of the Auditing Court, the repayment of an amount of 300,000 Marks was being asked for -- I believe, to be exact, it was 299,000 Marks and something--which the Police Treasury in Danzig had furnished between the 1st of October, 1939 and the 1st of April, 1940, for the labor camp at Stutthof for the Higher Police Leaders in Danzig. All the labor camps were under the supervision of these Higher SS and Police Leaders. Since this was a budgetary matter, at the time I had a conference with the Chief of Office A-IV, the Defendant Vogt, in Potsdam. I can recall that conference very well, due to the reason that during the conversation, an air raid took place, which lasted for Court No. II, Case No. 4.quite a while and we had to spend half an hour in the air raid shelter of the Auditing Court.
After that conference I was ordered by the Auditing Court to make a detailed report of the budgetary situation. I did that in the letter which was just quoted as a document. After it could be seen from this entire procedure that the Ministry of the Interior had already approved the amount to be finally stricken, we had to refuse from the budgetary regulations to repay the amount. That idea is conveyed by the document. I have to add something to this, namely, due to the fact that this cannot be seen from the procedure after the change of Stutthof into a State concentration camp, the DWB, that is, the German Economic Enterprises, were apparently ordered by Pohl to buy an estate, which I believe was near Stutthof, and was to be used as a settlement by the local Sector. I didn't know all the connections. However, in order to avoid in any case that an office should issue Reich funds, that is even to the DWB or the General SS, in this particular case, to the local Sector, I ordered, after having had a conference with Pohl -- and also I informed the Auditing Court -that after the purchase of the estate had been completed, the amount of 300,000 Marks would have to be paid back by the DWB to the Reich. I told that at the time to the Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Volk; if this purchase of the estate was carried out before the end of the war or not, I do not know. I imagine that Dr. Volk is the man who could give you information on that.
Q What did you know about the Ahnenerbe agency?
A The Ahnenerbe was an office in the main staff, the personal staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS. We regarded this office as a hobby of the Reichsfuehrer which dealt with ancestry research and excavations, etc. Where the Ahnenerbe received its funds, I didn't know. Certain planning offices were paid by the Reich Treasury of the Party. I didn't know the Chief of the Ahnenerbe.
Q In Document Book No. 9 you will find Exhibit 234, Document 098, which is on page 47 of the German and 44 of the English Docu Court No. II, Case No. 4.ment Book.
On page 3 of that report about the Ahnenerbe -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What Document Book?
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Document Book No. 9, Your Honor.
Q It is on page 3 of the German original. This report, which is signed by Sievers, states the following: "The funds for the institute-and with that he means the newly established-institute-for Military Scientific Research in the Ahnenerbe as ordered by the Reichsfuehrer-SS and discussed between Standartenfuehrer Loerner and myself in detail, will be paid from funds of the Waffen-SS." Can you recall this matter, and what are the various connections?
A Yes, I can recall this matter very well. As can be seen from one of the documents introduced by the prosecution, the Reichsfuehrer had ordered that the Military Research or Scientific Research Institute should be established in the Ahnenerbe and furthermore, that the funds for that should be drawn from the funds of the Waffen-SS.
because Ahnenerbe didn't have any funds or any right to funds or disposition over funds in the Waffen SS. The Chief of Sievers spoke to Pohl about it at the time. Pohl apparently sent him to me. However, the actual idea was to determine what office would have to pay the expenses which would result. That was an office of the Personal Staff. I told Sievers at the time that the treasury of the Personal Staff would have to pay the expenses, and that order is possibly contained in a document in one of your document books. I should also like to point out at this time that was not a fund of the Waffen SS, as the prosecution states in the indictment, but that these are simply funds and normal funds of the Waffen SS.
Q. You just spoke of an order of Himmler's, in some other document which was introduced by the prosecution. In Document Book Number VII I have the exhibits 202 and 204, NO-422 and NO-266, on pages 39 and 41 of the German Document Book. Now, at the present moment I don't know the pages of the English Document Book. I'm sorry. Are those the two orders which you just mentioned?
A. Yes. One of the orders, which is Exhibit Number 202, is the order by the Reichsfuehrer which was sent to Pohl for informational purposes.
Q. What can be seen from this?
A. That the Reichsfuehrer had ordered that the Military Institute for Scientific Research was to be established and that the Waffen SS should place the funds at their disposal. The second document, Exhibit 204, is my letter addressed to the treasury of the Personal Staff. It says here, and I quote: "As far as expenses occur for this institute, they are to be paid from the funds of the Waffen SS by the treasury of the Personal Staff of the Waffen SS, and personal expenses under Article 217-A, and certain factual expenses with Chapter 217-B."
Q. Did Sievers when conferring with you discuss the experiments that were carried out in his institute?
A. No. He didn't have any reason to do so. First of all, I met Sievers there for the first time and secondly the Reichsfuehrer had ordered that the funds were to be paid by the Waffen SS, so that the order actually already existed. All we had to find out now was which treasury had to put the funds at their disposal. Aside from that, all these experiments were secret matters which Sievers could not discuss. Furthermore, Sievers was in too high a position to lower himself and speak to me about such things because he had his orders from the Reichsfuehrer. In any case, before I read the documents here, I had no knowledge whatsoever that experiments were being carried out on concentration camp inmates in the concentration camps.
Q. What was your idea about this Institute for Military and Scientific Research? What did you think they were doing there?
A. The name Military Scientific Research could comprise almost anything. It could have been new weapons; it could have been a new explosive powder. It could have been a new system of food--any of the things which had something to do with the war. The name itself doesn't mean a thing.
EXAMINATION
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, you knew that it had some connection with Ahnenerbe, did you not?
A. Your Honor, I only knew that the Institute for military scientific research had been established in the Ahnenerbe by order of the Reichsfuehrer.
Q. You knew that it was related to the Ahnenerbe and didn't have anything to do with explosive powder or anything of that kind?
A. It could be that the Reichsfuehrer had ordered scientists who were working in the Ahnenerbe to work there for some purpose or another. I didn't know who was working in the Ahnenerbe.
Q. You knew what the Ahnenerbe was, did you not?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You knew that the Institute for Military Scientific Research was being established by Himmler within the framework of the Ahnenerbe?
A. Yes, indeed, Your Honor.
Q. Didn't you connect the two things at all in your mind?
A. Well, Your Honor, after Sievers had stated that he also had to pay wages, I had to assume that for this Military Scientific Research Institute he would receive new personnel and that new personnel could have been working in all sorts of fields in which they had been trained.
Q. That doesn't answer my question. In your mind did there arise any connection between the Ahnenerbe and the Institute for Scientific and Military Research?
A. Your Honor, why the Reichsfuehrer had selected the Ahnenerbe for that purpose, I couldn't know. I didn't know that, because the Ahnenerbe on the basis of its former activity was not destined to carry out those things. However, since the Reichsfuehrer had ordered it and he had also ordered that the expenses should be borne by the Waffen SS, the budgetary matter had already been taken care of.
Q. Did you know what the Ahnenerbe was?
A. Yes, I have already stated that, Your Honor.
Q. What was it?
A. That was an office where as far as we knew scientists were working before, scientists who dealt with all the prehistoric matters. That is to say, they carried out excavations and similar things. If other things were also carried out by the Ahnenerbe I didn't know because I had nothing to do with the Ahnenerbe. I didn't know Sievers at all.
Q. Was it your idea that all the Ahnenerbe was concerned with was excavating old ruins?
A. Well, before, yes. That's all we knew about it, you see, because I didn't know anything at all about the Ahnenerbe itself. All All I knew was what I knew from hearsay about the Ahnenerbe because they didn't receive any funds from me, nor did they receive funds from the Waffen-SS.
Q. Now, tell me again just what you thought the Ahnenerbe was engaged in and what they were doing.
A. I believed that before this Military Scientific Research Institute was established the Ahnenerbe dealt only with prehistoric research in Germany. That could be seen from the name itself. Ahnenerbe stands for Pre-Historic Society. It was also possible that the Reichsfuehrer wanted to give the Ahnenerbe a new task because its old assignment had no purpose whatsoever during the war. Therefore, in my opinion, that office was superfluous and could be used for new tasks.
Q. You talked to Sievers before this letter was written, did you?
A. Yes, indeed, Your Honor.
Q. Now, what did Sievers say? What did you talk about with him?
A. Today, after four or five years, I can't recall the exact things we said. However, it couldn't possibly have dealt with anything but purely budgetary matters; and for that reason, because he didn't know where to get his money, because after the Commanderin Chief of the SS Himmler had ordered that the expenses had to be born by the Waffen SS, there was no reason whatsoever for me to doubt the expenses somehow.
Q. Your answer is, that you and Sievers talked only about budget matters?
A. Yes, only about the administrative things, and the budget matters, because Sievers was not an expert in the administration.
Q. And Sievers did not explain to you what the Ahnenerbe was doing?
A. No, he did not. As far as I can recall he just told me that the Reichsfuehrer had ordered the establishment of this Institute, and that he needed personnel, and that he had expenses, and he wanted to know what treasury would give him money, what treasury would have to receive his bills for payment.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, you did not seriously believe that during the war for survivorship that this organization would be devoting its time to the excavation of old ruins, did you?
A. Your Honor, those things only referred to peacetime. I have already told Mr. President that I had to assume that the activity of the Ahnenerbe could not be carried out during the war anymore.
Q. Then you knew that it was submitted to some other activity during the war?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Well, weren't you interested in finding out what that activity might be?
A. No, Your Honor. I would have had very much to do if I wanted to know everything about all of the offices which received money from the Waffen-SS, if I wanted to know everything they were doing. It was neither my activity nor had I been ordered to do so, to know such things.
Q. You might not have to know every detail, but it seems to me that there would be an actualy desire on your part to ascertain to what purpose the money was being put for any particular operation?
A. Your Honor, the Reichsfuehrer had ordered that these funds were to be paid by the Waffen-SS, and, therefore, I had no reason whatsoever to doubt that these funds were being used for orderly purposes.
I did not inquire specifically what the money was being used for.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q. Witness, in order to clarify that matter, you have already stated that institute for Military Scientific Research was part of the Ahnenerbe, as Sievers told you, and there is no doubt today that by the name of "Military Scientific Research" you assumed, of course, that it dealt with research work for war purposes?
A. Yes, that was my statement.
Q. Well, what research work exactly was being carried out, you didn't ask and you were not told about it?
A. No.
Q. Witness, now something else about the budget. In Document Book No. 12 you will find Exhibit No. 331, Document No. NO-2128. It on page 12 of the English Document Book. This document also deals with the budget, amongst other things. The document was signed by Pohl. What can you see from all of that?
A. From that document it can be seen very clearly that the SS Economic experts were fully responsible for all of their expenses. They did not need any special permission for that, and they drew their funds from their own field treasuries. It can also be seen from this document very clearly that the Waffen-SS had an unlimited budget during the war.
Q. Witness, I shall refer to the opening speech by the prosecution. The Prosecution in its opening speech stated on page 58, that in June 1943 the various industrial enterprises obtained a loan of eight million Reichsmark which was paid from the so-called Reinhardt fund. Did you know about it, and what do you wish to say about it?
A. I would like to state the following. First of all, I didn't know of any Reinhardt fund, and, secondly, I was not informed by Frank about the loan to the Economic Enterprises.
Amt A-I had not participated in that loan, or in connection with that loan. I believe that the Prosecution refers to one of the documents which deals with the repayment of the loan to the savings association.
Q. By that do you mean Exhibit No. 448, that is Document Book 17 on page 33 of the German and page 32 in the English Document Book and Document No. NO-554?
A. Yes, that is the document which I meant.
Q. What does it deal with?
A. It deals with the repayment of a loan to the German Red Cross, which had been given to the Economy already, before the war, and where the savings association had been interpolated. Why the savings association had been interpolated at that time I don't know, because the savings association was only subordinated to me, in 1942. With regard to the document itself, I shall quote briefly, "By order of SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Frank, the following loans are repaid effective the 31st of May 1943." Then the loans are listed. It bears the date of 7 June 1943. Please have the interest for April and May paid by the enterprises concerned directly. The repayment is to be carried out, according to the order of Obergruppenfuehrer Frank, in order to eliminate the loan to the Red Cross," and the letter is signed by the DWB, Dr. Wenner. From that letter it could not be seen that these funds came from the New Reich loan, nor did one see they came from the Reinhardt Fund, nor did I see anything from this letter. The amounts was sent directly to the savings association, and later on transferred by the Red Cross by the savings association. The savings association did not make any profit on the interest, because the loan of the Redcross had also had to pay interest. I shall refer again to the fact that the reason why the loan went through the savings association is unknown to me, and it was not known to me at the time, either.
Q. Witness, you stated that you knew nothing about the Reinhardt Action. Didn't you know anything about the utilization of the Jewish property which was confiscated during that action?
A. Office A-I did not participate at all in the entire Reinhardt Action. I was not connected with it; neither Pohl, nor Frank , nor Vogt informed me in any way about the case. Even when Eckert left, Amt A-II, no documents whatsoever were given to me. Hauptsturmfuehrer Melmer, who has been mentioned here so many times, was never subordinated to me. In the course of the entire matter about the utilization of Jewish property Amt A-I was not concerned; it only received one document in that respect, and it was introduced subsequently.
Q. I show you a document here. That is Exhibit No. 545, which was introduced by the Prosecution subsequently.
A. I believe that I don't really have to read this letter in detail, and to discuss it, because it was already dealt with when the defendand Pohl was interrogated. This refers to a letter, A-II-3, "Reinh,", apparently "Reinhardt," dated 9 December 1943, and A-I did not receive that letter, you are referring to. Why this letter was sent to Office A-I for informational purposes I can only explain from paragraph I where the agencies are stated, which are competent for the Jewish property, and, these were the Reich Agencies. Whether I received knowledge of this letter, I don't know but I believe that this was in July 1944 when I was frequently absent from Berlin, and, there is a possibility that letter was handled by the experts, as it dealt with correspondence which actually did not have anything to do with Amt A-1.