Q That is sufficient, witness. Is it correct that the tunnels in which these factories were built already existed in a certain part, and that they belonged, to the Economic Research Office of the German Reich?
A Yes.
Q In other words, these tunnels were built up already?
A Yes.
Q How many kilometers was the distance between Dora and Nordhausen?
A I don't quite understand your question. Do you mean of how many from the factory?
Q Yes, from the factory?
A The camp of Dora was one kilometer apart from the entrance to the tunnels.
Q How can you explain the fact that according to your statement you made before it took four hours to march there?
A In my statement I answered it was not the Camp of Dora but one of the subsidiary camps, which was actually a safe distance from the working place, but I did not talk about the Camp of Dora.
Q The automatic heating system was built during the course of the year of 1944?
A Yes.
Q Then one has to draw a conclusion, that the administration inspite of all of the difficulties made plans to facilitate the life of these inmates in the camp?
A I have to answer this question, perfectly speaking, yes, because of the direction of the factory, this actually contributed quite a lot to the amelioration of conditions in the camp.
Q The working time usually elapsed between eleven to twelve hours, wasn't that correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that also the German workers in the German Armament factory had to work from ten to twelve hours a day, and sometimes even more?
A Yes.
Q I shall come now to the point which has something to do with the food in the camp. The civilian population in our occupational zone has in this period received one-hundred fifty grams of meat per week in this period. Do you have the impression - -
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, I think it is quite proper for defense counsel to interrogate the witness about the amount of food that the prisoners were fed at Dora, and he can exhaust that subject to any extent he desires, but I must rise to object to any comparison which he now intends to present as to food rationed out to Germans in the occupied zone now, whether under control of American Government or the German Government, it is quite immaterial and irrelevant.
THE PRESIDENT: I can not anticipate that is what he is going to ask. Perhaps he won't.
MR. McHANEY: That is what I understand his question to be. He was now stating the question, "Do you know that the German people are issued one-hundred fifty grams of meat."
THE PRESIDENT: I think that offers a comparison. I think that would be proper for an inquiry. You are alleging in the indictment a condition, that is, you are alleging a hardship that existed in a concentration camp among inmates that should meet some standard of hardship, and we need a standard from which it can be judged. I think the inquiry may be pursued.
MR. McHANEY: Very well, Your Honor, we will see how it develops.
BY DR. SIEDL:
Q Now witness, on the basis of your recollection, can you tell me how much meat the inmates received there per week, that is, approximately?
AAt the upmost, fifty grams.
Q How much fat did they receive per week?
A The inmates received according to my recollection approximately one-hundred twenty grams of fat.
Q One-hundred grams of fat per week?
A Yes.
Q How much bread do you say they received per week?
A They received one-third of bread; in other words, approximately 330 grs. per day.
Q In other words, that is more than four pounds, considerably more than four pounds?
THE PRESIDENT: What was the answer?
DR. SEIDL: He nodded, Your Honor.
Q Now, witness, I am sure you wanted to answer that question with "Yes", did you not?
A Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You din't indicate what period, however.
DR. SEIDL: He said that per day these inmates received 330 grs. of bread.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Let's shorten this. You summed up by saying that amounted to over four pounds, but you did not add for what period.
DR. SEIDL: I answered before -
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Don't tell me what you answered before.
DR. SEIDL: Per week.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: All right, per week. Go ahead.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q You furthermore stated that, in your opinion, a normal consumer, a normal human being who does not work, needs at least 2,000 calories per day.
A I said 2,400.
Q 2,400. In other words, you would say that a human being who gets only 850 calories or 1,550 calories is not in a position to live much longer?
A Not at all.
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, I intend now to show the witness a document. This document is in Document Book 5 of the Prosecution, Document NO 2132. It is on Page 135 of the German Document Book.
This is a decree of the Reich Minister of Food and Agriculture, dated 7 April 1942. I shall quote from Number I-1, "Rations for judicial prisoners, inmates of concentration camps and for prisoners detained in police prisons." I shall skip the first two paragraphs (a) and (b), and shall quote from (c):
"The fat, bread and flour rations to be issued in accordance with my decree of 16 January 1940 -- II c 2-948, with reference to 1 b, d and h, have been determined as follows:
Fats, total amount 170 gr.
Either Margarine 130 gr.
or Salad oil 104 gr.
Suet 40 gr.
or Lard 32 gr.
Bread 2450 gr.
Rye flour of type 1790 75 gr.
Bread flour of type 2300 50 gr.
"d. The other rations remain unchanged."
I ask you now, Witness, do you believe that these rations are sufficient to keep a prisoner who does not work too hard alive?
A I would have to see the average calorie figure per day in order to answer that question, namely, what that amounts to per day.
THE PRESIDENT: Can some one tell us what the date of this Exhibit is? It is not complete on this document that we have. It is Berlin, 7 April.
DR. SEIDL: 1942, Your Honor.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, can it not be seen very clearly from this document that the Food Ministry was responsible for the food allowances, because this is a decree issued by the Reich Minister for Food, and he is the one who has stated the amount of food to be issued to the population?
A Yes.
Q You also stated that there were also prisoners of war in the camp, to be sure, Italians and Russians. Do you know for what reasons these prisoners or war had been removed from their PW enclaves and put into these camps?
A No, I do not.
Q You also stated what the clothing allowance was for the inmates. Is it correct that in the last years of the war the German population also, particularly the German workers, received no allowance of material for clothes?
A That is correct.
Q Do you know that there was an order issued by Himmler in which it is said that the concentration camps, if the enemy should reach them, should be withdrawn from the supervision of the WVHA and that they should be submitted immediately to the orders of the Higher SS and Police Fuehrer under whose supervision the camp was?
A No.
Q Do you know that all questions concerning police matters, particularly questions about executions, were dealt with by the RSHA in Berlin?
A Yes, I do.
Q And that the RSHA had nothing to do with the WVHA?
A Yes.
Q You then mentioned a discussion during which Dr. Alfred Kurzke told you something. Do you know who else participated in that conversation?
A No, I do not.
Q According to the plan that you mentioned, namely, that on the approach of Allied troops, the Dora should be blown up-
A No, as far as I know, this order was recalled and cancelled later on, and a so-called evacuation order was issued.
Q In other words, the inmates were transported away from those camps and put into other camps?
A Yes.
Q Now, one more question. As a prisoner of war, you were in the camp of Bergen-Belsen, is that right?
A I?
Q I understood that you were in the camp of BergenBelsen as an inmate yourself.
A No.
DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions of the witness, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: We'll take the recess before the next cross examination.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Will the persons present in court take your seats.
Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL
Q. Please, may I have an opportunity to put a few more questions to the witness, which I could not put before, because I had to have oral information by the defendant. Witness, you testified that Dora was subordinated to the commander of the Camp Buchenwald for the time being?
A. That was the truth, yes.
Q. Is it correct if I say that it was the responsibility in these camps of the commander of the camp?
A. Partly, yes.
Q. Now, I refer back to those tunnels. I was told that those tunnels where the works were located were about 18 to 20 meters wide and 10 meters high, is that correct?
A. The size I think it was bigger.
Q. They were not real tunnels then? They were more or loss subterranean factories like work rooms?
A. Yes. Yes, you can say that.
Q. Is it correct that in these subterranean holes there were trains on tracks?
A. Yes.
Q is it correct to say that not only there was automatic heating facilities, but also by appropriate facilities the power was also taken care of.
A Power was taken care of.
Q Then refer back to the question of nutrition. You told of the rations the prisoners received. You told that to this Court. Is it correct that the prisoners who were working in the subterranean factories received additional rations?
A Yes, I testified that before.
DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
BY DR. MUELLER-THORGOW (for Defendant Goerg Loerner) Q Witness, when you were official physician in Dora where did you requisition the drugs for the prisoners?
A I got them in Berlin in Amtsgruppe D, I requisitioned them from there Q Immediately from Amtsgruppe D in Berlin, is that correct?
A My requisitions for drugs went via Buchenwald but were systematically directed to the office in Berlin. This is the official channel from Buchenwald.
THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, could you speak closer to the microphone, please?
Q Who in Camp Dora, regarding the clothing, who requisitioned it?
A The clothing was requisitioned by the administration of the camp, that is Buchenwald, from the administration of Camp Dora at the administration in Buchenwald.
Q Who was in charge of the Administration in Dora?
A The administration at Dora at first was in charge of SS Oberscharfuehrer Westphal and later on Hauptsturmfuehrer Froescher.
Q Who was in charge of the administration at Buchenwald?
A Barnewald.
Q And where did Barnewald requisition the clothing from, do you know that?
A Barnewald had to requisition it from his superior authority.
Q And who was that?
A That was from Berlin.
Q And who in Berlin?
A Which office of the WVHA I cannot tell.
Q Witness, this morning before the recess you testified that the Reichs' Nutrition Office was in charge of rations and determined the rations and you declared that the WVHA had nothing to do with it. Who, in your opinion, was responsible that food was delivered in an edible way to the prisoners? Who was especially in charge of construction of refrigerators, and so forth, for stocks about?
A Of course the administration of the camp.
Q And the superior authority?
A The superior authority was again the superior authority in Berlin.
Q You don't know whether it was the WVHA in a special case?
A No, I don't know that, but it is evident from the various cases.
DR. MUELLER-THORGOW: I have no further questions.
BY DR. HOFFMAN (for Defendant Scheide) Q Witness, in Direct Examination you testified that the prisoners who received, one now and then received sausages only every other day?
A Yes.
Q In cross-examination you said that weekly meat ration amounted to 50 grams, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q If you know, count up four days, the 50 grams, then they have 10 grams of meet every day, is that correct?
A That is correct, because it wasn't meat sausage but especially blood sausage and it was therefore perishable.
Q It is known that blood sausage contains very little meat, and you think that the 50 grams of meat was more or less a meat extract?
A No, that is the meat which is contained in the sausage.
Q I mean, that is the concentrated meat?
A No, we understand from a meat extract, I understand something different It is not concentrated meat, but just the ordinary meat which is used in sausages.
DR. HOFFMAN: I have no further questions.
BY DR. STEIN (for Defendant Eirenschmalz) Q Witness, this morning you testified that frequently Dr. Kammler was in the camp?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that Dr. Kammler was in charge of special purpose tasks?
A Yes.
Q Special tasks in reference to the Camp Dora, as the effect of the big weapons. The visit of Dr. Kammler, did it mean in the camp he came there so that Dr. Kammler could be convinced on the production of the weapons, or did he want to inspect the construction there?
A Kammler came to inspect on all the matters, that is construction projects, and increase of production, the industrial production of armaments, and Kammler also concerned himself with the housings and the general condition of life for the prisoners.
Q Do I understand you correctly if you say that these construction projects, we could understand the construction of new buildings?
A Yes.
Q And not perhaps the condition of the earlier existing buildings?
A Yes, the first question is correct, yes.
Q Did Dr. Kammler come alone or was he in company with his colleagues, of his committees?
A Kammler mostly came with a small staff.
Q Were they always the same gentlemen?
A As far as I know, yes.
Q Can you identify on the dock one of the defendants who came with Kammler to Dora, together with Kammler?
A No, no Q You further testified that with reference to the sanitary arrangements the conditions were very bad ones?
A Yes.
Q I ask you now, to change these conditions, did you care about that so that you reported to any worthy authority that these had to be changed, these circumstances, and what happened?
A The improvements which I succeeded in doing in the camp I did, exceptionally by evading my authorities.
'xcO)/x (To register profanity)
Q. And for the reason?
A. Because I was forced to act in this way, because of my opinion as to the necessities of these improvements, as I already said before.
Q. I turn to the management of the camp.
A. I applied to the directors of these factories who gave money in a far-reaching manner, by the help of which I bought drugs and so on. Where there had been 300 beds, they were increased to a thousand six hundred. I hoped that by the help of the management of the plant, to further construction of the housing in the camp, it would be carried through and made these improvements by excluding my direct superiors, since these improvements were necessary.
Q. Witness, who was in charge, and what size was this camp from the beginning? Do you know that?
A. Originally not more than ten thousand inmates.
Q. Do you want to say also that for those ten thousand the existing construction and installations were not sufficient?
A. When the construction was developing further on in the summer it was between ten thousand inmates.
Q. Would that be sufficient housing?
A. I would not call it sufficient, but it might have been possible but by the influx of other inmates these new installations were rendered insufficient.
Q. For this purpose did you have a special building management in the camp itself, where you could refer?
A. There was in the place a so-called SS Fuehrungstab. This staff was in charge of this construction, but firstly there was the tunnel building, and secondly the building of barracks for the whole layout of the camp.
Q. You would like to say that the SS was solely responsible for this construction?
A. I cannot answer this question by saying yes or no, for the reason this staff only worked out plans or put them in operation, which went direct to Bobermin.
Q. Then you saw the insufficiencies did you report them to the staff?
A. Yes.
Q. What action did the staff take?
A. This staff had a discussion and pointed out the difficulties which we were coming to in the execution of this work in the camp, as it was always stressed again and again that firstly the construction projects were in the first line.
Q. Was this difficulty also in the lack of material?
A. Materials were sufficient and I, myself, I saw things there which ordinarily you could not find in the Reich any more, which I explained the construction project in the Reich itself was so very necessary as far as the Reich was concerned.
Q. Who was in charge of this administration of material?
A. The administration of this material was in charge of several private firms which were there put to work.
Q. And these private firms, did you support them by your own means, as you said before, when you went with your difficulties to the staff?
A. No, these firms, but there was a management of the Mittelwerk.
DR. STEIN: I have no further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. RATZ:
Q. Witness, you testified before that the gold from the teeth of deceased prisoners was sent to the Office D-III. I would like to ask you, is that an assumption of yours or can you say of a certainty?
A. I already testified that it was an assumption of mine.
Q. On what do you base this assumption?
A. Because the direction, on dental treatment, of all things concerned with the dentistry, came from there.
Q. I would like to show you a document which was submitted yesterday. Affidavit of Barnewald, the administration leader of Buchenwald, page 106 in the German document book. (Document 2149) You talked about the gold removed from the prisoners and said that gold from the prisoners was given back to me monthly by the dentist and I sent it every six months to Burger to D-IV. The first order which I received was concerning the treatment of these gold, came from D-IV, at that time from Hanschel, in 1940 or 1941.
I should like to ask whether your assumption may be perhaps an error.
A. I did say that was an assumption and that this declaration might be correct.
Q. A further question: You know the Defendant Hermann Pook personally. Is it correct that the Defendant Pook was once in Nordhausen, to got proper accommodations for the dentistry station?
A. I cannot personally remember that I saw Pook in Nordhausen.
DR. RATZ: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. In direct examination you testified that Dora was a plant of the Mittelwerke, Limited, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Further, you mentioned the directors.
A. Yes.
Q. Who were they?
A. Firstly there was economic director, Bertsch.
Q. Did he belong to the WVHA?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who was in charge of the shares of the Mittelwerke?
A. No.
Q. If I tell you that they belonged to the Chef H. Rust, former Reichminister Speer, can you then tell us about it?
A. No.
Q. Is it correct that this Mittelwerke, Limited, was a private enterprise which had nothing to do with the WVHA?
A. That is correct.
Q. Is it then correct to say that you, if you look at the chart-
A. Can I have a look at it, please?
(The witness left the stand and walked up close to the chart on the wall.)
Q. -- That Mittelwerke, Limited, were in no connection with the Amts Gruppe W -- that is the last number?
A. Yes, I can see that.
DR. GAWLIK: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further cross-examination by any of the Counsel.
(There was none.)
Apparently not. Is there any redirect?
MR. McHANEY: I have one or two short questions, if the Tribunal please.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Witness, you said you complained quite often about food and clothing for the prisoners. Did there come a time that Burger of Amt IV came to Dora?
a. Yes, he talked to me.
Q. And did he tell you to stop complaining about the food and clothing conditions in Dora, because Tschentscher and Pohl stated there would be no additional food and clothing for Dora?
A. Yes, that is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: If there are no further questions, the witness may be removed.
(Witness excused.)
MR. HART: May it please the Tribunal, I offer a series of documents, contained in Prosecutions Document Book 5. At page 1 of the Document Book, I offer Document NO-1259. This is a Lieberhenschel circular letter to the concentration camp commanders, concerning reports.
The letter concerns reports to be made on the arrivals or transfers of Soviet Russian prisoners of war, and reports in the cases of their death. It is stated these reports only concern prisoners of war behind barbed wire in camps for protective custody; that the reports do not concern Soviet Russian prisoners of war who were to be brought to other SS Prisoner of War Labor Camps then being set up. Exhibit number one hundred -
SECRETARY-GENERAL: One hundred eighteen was the first one.
MR. HART: Excuse me, that is Exhibit No. 118. Do your Honors have document NO-391?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. HART: That page three of the document book I offer as document NO-391, as Exhibit No. 119. I should like to read that document. It is a letter from Muller, the Chief of Security police, dated November 9, 1941.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What page is that on?
MR. HART: It is on page 3 in the first book, your Honor. There was a document 391 which is not the correct document. When I asked your Honors if you had it, I referred to a new document which is to be distributed to Defense Counsel. I will withdraw the offering of this document at the present time because I see that your Honors do not have a correct copy of it.
THE PRESIDENT: The document which we have is a letter from Dr. Lammers.
MR HART: Yes; that is not correct. I withdraw the offer of document NO-391 at this time. May I reserve Exhibit No. 119 for that document, later on?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. HART: At page 8 of the document book -
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a moment. (Delay because of excess moise over earphones) Mr. Hart, if you will attempt to raise your voice a little bit, we may be able to hear you without the earphones.
MR. HART: At page 8 of the document book, I offer document NO-2138 as Exhibit 120. This is an order of the Security Police regarding the screening of Russian prisoners of war so that those dangerous to the armament industry would not be allocated to use as laborers in the armament industry. I should like to read the last paragraph. It is stated that, "The Political troop commissars and political commissars are to be transferred to the Mauthausen concentration camp. The inspector of the concentration camps has been informed accordingly."
At page 11 of the document book I offer Document No. 2318, as Exhibit No. 121. This is a letter from the defendant Pohl to -- It is a circular letter distributed to Amtsgruppen A, B. C. D. and W-- to all offices of the SS Economic and Administrative Branches, and to all branch offices. I should like to read it. "For actual reasons, I herewith order that every leader of a branch office of the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office who is provided with prisoners or prisoners of war for the execution of work is jointly responsible for the prevention of escape, robbery and acts of sabotage..."
At page 13 of the document book I offer Document NO-1246 as Exhibit No. 122. This is a Liebehenschel directive concerning the making of simple reports in the case of the death of Russian prisoners of War, Jews, and others. I should like to reserve Exhibit No. 123 for the later offering of document No. 299-PS.
At page 17 of the document book I offer Exhibit No. NO-1932. -I should have said Document No. 1932, as Exhibit No. 124. This is a report of the Twelfth Army Group and also the First Army concerning conditions in the Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp, and the execution there of 80 American and British flyers, and some 26,000 Russian prisoners of war. In the copy of that document which I have, your Honors, on the first page it is stated that this is an "Unofficial Copy." That copy I have is apparently a Press copy but the one before the Court in the document book does not contain that statement.
At page 41 of the document book I offer document 2104 as Exhibit No. 124. This is submitted to show a list of prisoners transferred to Wewelsburg. At page 42 of the document book I offer document NO-1945 as Exhibit No. 126. This exhibit consists of various correspondence and communications concerning the transfer of concentration camp prisoners from one camp to another.
At page 55 -
THE PRESIDENT: Forty-eight is the next document.
MR. HART: Yes. At page 50 of the document book I offer document No. NO-1017.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Hart, you have skipped -
MR. HART: Yes, I did so purposefully because they are almost identical. I am not offering NO-1505. This exhibit concerns the transfer of Russian civilians in terms of numbers.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That was 127.-
MR. HART: I beg your pardon?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Exhibit 127?
MR. HART: That is 127: thank you, your Honor. At page 52 of the document book I offer document No. 3677 as Exhibit No. 128. This is a letter from the Chief of Office D-11 to concentration camp commanders. It reads: "The Reichsfuehrer-SS wishes all concentration camps situated within the Reich territory to be cleared of Jews. All Jews within these concentration camps are therefore to be transferred to Auschwitz or Lublin."
"Please report the number of the Jewish inmates in those concentration camps to me by the 9th of this month and state in particular if any of these prisoners are being employed in assignments not permitting an immediate transfer."
"Signed Maurer, The Chief of Office D-II."