MR. ROBBINS: If the Court please, we would propose to go ahead with the presentation of documents until the recess.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal may remove the witness from the Courtroom.
(Sitness excused.)
MR. ROBBINS: I next offer prosecution exhibit 355, which is Document NO-1925.
THE PRESIDENT: Volume 13, Mr. Robbins?
MR. ROBBINS: Volume 13, yes, sir.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Robbins, the pages in this book are not numbered.
MR. ROBBINS: No, your Honor. We will supply the Court with a paginated document book after the recess I hope.
Document NO-1925 is a letter by Gluecks who was chief of Amtsgruppe D of the WVHA, to the Commandants of various concentration camps, requesting a listing of special prisoners and their assignments. Has the Court found this document? It's the sixth document, I believe, in the book.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, we have it.
MR. ROBBINS: The last paragraph of the document reads: "The list will be kept up to date. A supplementary report will be submitted on the 15th of every month. No return is necessary."
The following document, NO-067, I offer as prosecution exhibit 356. This is a letter from Himmler to the defendant Pohl dated 4 March 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it not 355, Mr. Robbins?
MR. ROBBINS: Your Honor, the pictures of the witness Balitzke were 354.
THE PRESIDENT: That's right.
MR. ROBBINS: 1925 is 355 and this, I believe, is 356. The letter is very short and I will read it.
"Dear Pohl: Professor Porsche visited me today. He asked us to take over as a concentration camp plant a plant which is manufacturing a secret weapon. The production takes place in an underground mine and 3,500 laborers are needed. Please get in touch with Porsche.
Signed H. Himmler."
The following document, NO-020-A and B has already been offered in evidence as prosecution exhibit 81. The Court will recall that this is the letter by the defendant Pohl to Himmler, giving a general report on concentration camps and labor camps in Germany as of 31 March 1944. He states that there are 13 camps in the Reich territory, 3 in the Government General, 3 in the Ostland, 2 in the Netherlands. And a note at the bottom by Pohl: "In Eicke's time there were altogether six camps; now 185."
The following document, NI-317, which is the same as Document NO-021-A and B, I offer as prosecution exhibit 357. The first part of this document is a letter from Brandt to the defendant Pohl stating that Himmler has approved of the security measures in Auschwitz which were indicated in Pohl's letter of 5 April 1944. The second part of the document is Pohl's letter of 5 April 1944, to Himmler, reporting on security measures in Auschwitz. I should like to read a part of it. Paragraph numbered 1:
"Camp I includes the compact camp for men with a present strength of approximately 16,000 inmates. It is surrounded with a fence and by barbed wire which, as in all concentration camps, is electrically charged. Besides there are watch towers, on the tops of which machine guns are mounted.
"2) Camp II is at a distance of about 3 kilometers from Camp I. It accommodates 15,000 male and 21,000 female inmates. Of a total of 36,000 inmates approximately 15,000 are unable to work. Camp II is also surrounded by an electrically charged wire fence; there are also watch towers.
"Camp III includes all outside camps attached to industrial establishments in Upper Silesia which, however, are located at considerable distances from each other.
At present it consists of 14 outside camps with a total number of approximately 15,000 male inmates. These labor camps are also surrounded by the usual wire fence and have also watch towers. The largest of these labor camps is in Auschwitz attached to the I.G. Farben industrie AG. It has at present 7,000 inmates."
The rest of the document contains a detailed report on security measures in Auschwitz. The letter is signed by the defendant Pohl.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess, Mr. Robbins.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1330 this afternoon.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal II is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: I believe that your Honors have been supplied with paginated copies of Book 13 during recess. The next document is found on Page 29 and is Document NO-1794, which will be Prosecution Exhibit 358. This is a letter dated 19 April 1944 from the defendant Pohl to Himmler. I should like to read only a small part of it.
He says: "Yesterday afternoon around 15 hours the Heinkel Works in Oranienburg were attacked by several waves of enemy aircraft. The works are located nine kilometers away from the concentration camp of Sachsenhausen. Six thousand prisoners are employed there in the manufacture of heavy bombers of the 177 type." He goes ahead to state that from 1200 to 1500 bombs were dropped. Then in the latter part of the letter, the second paragraph, he states that one guard was killed and two slightly injured. Of the prisoners 106 were killed, 116 seriously injured, 28 lightly injured, and 86 missing. He states that the missing prisoners are probably still under the ruins.
I next offer the document on Page 31, NO-1623, as Exhibit 359. This is a letter dated 24 May 1944 from the defendant Pohl to Himmler, reporting on construction of fortifications by the Central Russian group of the SS labor force and describing the purpose and strength of the force. I don't think it is necessary to read this document.
On page 34 I offer Document NO-592. I beg your pardon. This document has already been offered in evidence as Exhibit 101; and I will not offer it again. This is a telegram from Pohl to Himmler, stating that fifty per cent of the employable Jews who come from Hungary are women and asking for permission to use them in heavy labor.
The next document on Page 36 is also a part of Exhibit 101, from Himmler to Pohl, giving consent to use women in construction work.
This was quoted in the opening statement. On Page 37 I offer Document 597 as Prosecution's Exhibit 360. This is a letter from Maurer of Amtsgruppe D, setting out the numbers for the filing system for concentration camp inmates' employment in industry. It also contains a list of the industrial firms using inmates. It is a rather long document, extending to Page 74 of the document book. It shows the filing system of the WVHA; and it shows on its face that concentration camp inmates were used in the industries indicated there. At Page 8 of the document the reference is to an allocation of prisoners to Office W-I, GEST. Then under that there is a list of the firms and also concentration camps. Next follows allocation of prisoners to Office W-II, stone and mineral soils. Next, allocation of prisoners to Office W-III, food concerns. Then allocation of prisoners to Office W-IV and W-V, W-VI, W-VII. I believe that the reference on the bottom of Page 10 is to allocation of workers to Office W-VIII. I shall check that with the original to make certain.
At Page 75 of the document book I offer NO-016 as Exhibit 361. This is a series of correspondence between Pohl and Brandt concerning conditions in chemical warfare factories and security measures to be taken there.
THE PRESIDENT: Who wrote the first document, Mr Robbins? 22 June?
MR ROBBINS: I believe that is written by Pohl. I think there is a capital "P" on the original document.
THE PRESIDENT: It is an "R" in our copy. That is Exhibit No. 361?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, sir, NO-016.
THE PRESIDENT: (Looking at original document) The signature is quite plain. In fact, it is a typewritten signature, the original of Pohl.
MR. ROBBINS: Of Pohl?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR ROBBINS: The second letter there dated June 9 1944 from Karl Brandt to Himmler states prisoners are employed with best results in several "K" factories, and in plants producing chemical warfare protection articles.
The next document is NI-1341, which is missing from the English Document Book. I should like to reserve the Exhibit No.362 for that document for a later offer.
On page 76 I offer Document NO-1975 as Prosecution's Exhibit NO 363. This is a letter on the letterhead of concentration camp Buchenwald to ATG Company, regarding the employment of 500 female and 500 male concentration camp inmates. I would like to ask Mr. Siebenschein to see if you can make out the signature on that letter, also.
THE PRESIDENT: This is a carbon copy unsigned. The original exhibit does not disclose the signature.
MR ROBBINS: Thank you. At page 77 I offer as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 364 the Document No. NO-1961. The part of this exhibit which is of horizontal lines is a chart showing assignment of inmates from Buchenwald to various work details with the number of prisoners employed. The other part marked "Survey" appears to be simply a form which was used by the concentration camp to report on the number of prisoners used in the various work details.
At page 78 I offer Document NO-1003 as Prosecution's Exhibit NO. 365. This is a series of eight letter dealing with assignment of concentration camp prisoners for bomb disposal work from Natzweiler. It shows the use of concentration camp prisoners in the disposal of enemy bombs.
At page 87 is document NO-2622 which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit No. 366. This is a letter from the defendant Pohl to Himmler enclosing report of Kammler. That report of Kammler is a typewritten report which is missing from the English Document Book, NO-2615, and which I should like to reserve as Exhibit No. 367. The report deals with construction of V-1 and V-2 sites.
At page 88 I offer Document NO-2144.
DR. SEIDL: Dr. Seidl for the defendant Oswald Pohl. Your Honor, the defense document book with the initial letter only of Document NO-2611 has been submitted. The report itself, however, is not there, and I would appreciate if the Prosecution could possibly see to it that this report is also handed in.
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, the Prosecution will do that. It is not in the English Document either. It is the document which is given No. NO2615, and I have reserved Exhibit No. 367 for that.
Document NO-2144 will be Exhibit 368. This is a letter from Himmler to Kammler, Amtsgruppen C, and others, concerning the responsibility for the carrying out of the V-2 project.
The following document at page 89 is Document NO-071, which I offer as Exhibit 369. This is a letter from Himmler to Fegelin, requesting employment of Polish prisoners of war and officers in the concentration camps. A copy was sent to Pohl.
Following that is Document NO-2101, which I offer as Prosecution 's Exhibit No. 370. This is a letter reporting the employment source at Buchenwald camp, and it lists the number of prisoners who have arrived at their site of work.
NO2109 at page 93 has already been offered in evidence and is Prosecution's Exhibit No. 134.
The following exhibit at page 94 is 058-PS. I offer that as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 371. It is a circular letter by Bormann, and I should like to read the second paragraph: "For all questions which have to do with the fulfilling of the agreement of 1939, as well as affairs of the Police and aid societies, and for the affairs of the German prisoners of war in the enemy hands, the High Command of the military Forces will give particulars of the transfer, and the delineation of the twofold duties in direct consultation with the Commander of the Reserve Army, and the Divisions of the Military Forces." And then Bormann states that Himmler has commanded, in paragraph C: "The mobilization of labor of the prisoners of war will be organized with the present labor mobilization office in joint action between Berger and Pohl."
The Document at page 96 is NI-638, and I offer it as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 372. I believe that the translation of this document is not complete. I shall check on that, and if it is not I shall supply the Tribunal with a complete translation. It is a circular letter by the Reichsminister for Armament and War Production for the WVHA and others, stating that all previous requests for allocation of inmates are canceled, and that all the requests will be official as to the WVHA.
At page 98 I offer Document NO--- excuse me, that is PS-4021, which is the same as Document NI-315. I offer it as Prosecution Exhibit No.373. This is a letter from Pohl to Himmler reporting a teletype message from Director General of Hasag.
DR. SEIDL: Dr. Seidl for the defendant Oswald Pohl. If it please Your Honor, in our Document Book the Document PS-4021 is also missing. It has just been submitted by the Prosecution as Exhibit 373. The same applies to the next document, NI-315 of which we have only one of the pages. I would appreciate if the Prosecution would also give us photostatic copies of these two documents.
MR ROBBINS: I'll offer these two documents, then, provisionally.
The Document 4021-PS states that :"The Hasag operates today already with over 10,000 Concentration Camp's prisoners." And it also states that they have called almost daily upon Haurer, who was a member of the Amtsgruppen D.
At page 100 I offer provisionally Document NO-395 as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 374. This is a list that concerns employment of concentration camp inmates.
At page 103 I offer Document NO-1977 as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 375. That is a letter from Hoser of Amtsgruppen D, dated 29 January 1945, and it was sent to the commanders of the concentration camps indicated there. The list consist of a tabulation of inmates 'performances on the various work details.
At Page 106 I offer Document NO 1936 as Exhibit 376. This is a file memorandum regarding the transfer of 500 inmates from labor detail S 111 to Bergen-Belsen.
At Page 107 offer NO 1097 as Exhibit 377. This is a report from the Office of Labor Statistics in Buchenwald regarding Jewish labor details and shows inmates working at S-111, DAW, and other industries.
The next document, MI 372 I offer as Exhibit 378. The translation is not complete, and I will supply Tribunal with a complete translation there.
The following document, Mi 363, I offer as Exhibit 379 This is lenghty report of the international Camp Committee regarding working conditions and the supply of inmate from Buchenwald. At page 2 of the Document I should like to read a short extract:
"The number of workers and the production of the various factories may be gathered from the preceding lists. The accommodation of the prisoners was not in most cases extremely primitive. In some places the prisoners lived in the works themselves and suffered not inconsiderables losses through bombardments. The description of the conditions of life and work can only be confined to a few especially notorious commands. Something has already been said about Dora, Laura, and S 111 in the first section; it will only be supplemented."
Then the following part of the document deals with conditions at the DAW and other work details.
At page 125 I offer NO 2180 as Prosecution Exhibit 380. I Think there is a mistake there. I guess that is correct. This is a letter dated 14 April 1942. Is that missing in the German Book?
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, I object to the introduction of this document MI 363, which has just been submitted as Exhibit 379 by the Prosecution. The document which is contained in document book NO 1 does not show what it is all about in detail. One can say with certainly only that it is not a document which was captured by Allied Troops, to be exact, that it is not a German Document captured by Allied Troops.
As far as the index is concerned, one has to deduce that this is the report of a committee which was set up by the inmates of the camp themselves. It says here in the index at page 138, "Report of the International Camp Committee, pages 39 to 109." One can understand from this index that it is not the report of one of the Allied Nations which, according to Ordinance Number 7 of Military Government, may be used by this Tribunal as evidence. This is just the private work of former inmates, who can not submit this to this Tribunal as evidence.
MR. ROBBINS: I believe that the affidavit with the document shows that it is a government report. I can determine that in just a moment.
The certificate with the document simply states that it is an excerpt from a publication, "International Camp Committee Report." I should like to withdraw the offer of evidence at this time and determine the nature of the international Camp Committee. I should, however like to reserve to the Document the Exhibit number that was given to it.
THE PRESIDENT: I am very sorry. I did not get what you said, Mr. Robbins. You withdrew 379?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, I should like to reserve the Exhibit number, however until I can determine the nature of the International Camp Committee.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: 379 or 380 you withdrew?
MR. ROBBINS: 379, Your Honor. 380 is a letter from Maurer to the commanders of the various concentration camps, asking for details report on the training of prisoners.
On page 126 I offer Document MI 382, which is the affidavit on the defendant Pohl, which states-
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, the document MI 382 is also not in our document book. Therefore, as I requested before, I hope that the Prosecution will give us the photostatic copies of that document as soon as possible.
MR. ROBBINS: I offer that document only provisionally then.
It simply sets out the names of certain industries which employed concentration camp labor.
The last document in this book had already been offered as Exhibit 68. That is document 1584-PS.
I should like to turn to Document Book, 14 which deals with a new subject matter, and I am glad to report that all of the documents are in the English document book, and I believe that they are all in the German document book for a change.
The first document is 1205, affidavit by Pohl, which I offer as Exhibit 382. The translation in English is not complete, and I will supply the court with a complete copy. The part that is missing is the part that deals with the description of some of the Amts in Amtsgruppe W.
At page 5 I offer NO 551 as Exhibit 383.
DR. SEIDL. Your Honor, the document NO 1205 does not seem to be complete at all. Apparently the introduction is missing, which gives the names of the witness, and therefore I would like to request the Prosecution that the original of the document be shown to me.
Your Honor, I have just found out that in the criminal, also, the usual introduction of the affidavit is missing. It does not show either the document or that the affidavit is sworn to.
MR. ROBBINS: Your Honor, I would like to withdraw the offer of this document. It is not an important one. We'll just skip this one.
THE PRESIDENT: Withdraw the Exhibit?
MR ROBBINS: I withdraw the offer.
THE PRESIDENT: And cancel the exhibit number.
DR. BELZER (Counsel for defendant Sommer): Your Honor, I have just found out that Document Book 14, has not been given to me so far. I would appreciate it if you would permit me to bring any objections that should occur a little bit later, as soon as I get my document book.
THE PRESIDENT: You will have the right to make any objection you wish later 653
MR. ROBBINS: I offer the document at Page 3, NO-551, as Exhibit 382. This is a memorandum by the Defendant Pohl, and it sets out the names of industries under the SS, and it gives the department or office group under which each of the industries fall. The first one there is the DWB under Staff W, and then this document shows that the Osti industry was also under Staff W, which is the sixth industry listed there. The next industry listed after Osti is the German Earth & Stone Works, DEST, which is under Amtsgruppe W-1, and under W-2 is shown the Klinker Zement also the Golleschauer PortlandZement Company. Under "-3 on the next page is shown various food industries under the SS. Under "-4 -
DR. GAWLIK (For Defendants Volk and Bobermin): May I see the original document, your Honor? Your Honor, I just find out that the original document is not signed either. There is no signature whatsoever on it. It is nothing but a photostatic copy of the document.
MR. ROBBINS: The document that we have is a carbon copy, and it is signed the Chief of the WVHA, SS Obergruppenfuehrer and General of the Waffen SS. The certificate shows it is a captured document.
THE PRESIDENT: In spite of the fact that it is not signed, the person who wrote it can be identified by his title.
MR. ROBBINS: Under Amtsgruppe W-4 is shown first the DAW, which is the enterprise controlling the work shops in the concentration camp. Under W-5 is the German experimental station for nutrition, under W-6, various textile firms, under W-7, Nordland Publishing Company, Limited. The balance of the document describes in more detail the nature of each of those industries.
At page 14, I offer document NO-2116 as Exhibit 383. This is another memorandum giving the names of the various plants under the WVHA and Amtsgruppe W. Also it gives the names of various managers. Among them are listed Pohl, Loerner, Volk, Mummenthey, Bobermin, also the Defendant Klein. 654 At Page 19, I offer Document NO-1039 as Exhibit 384.
The first part of the document is a draft by the Defendant Hohberg of a letter sent to Pohl to be approved and sent on to Himmler. The first part is identical with Exhibit 382. The letter at page 22 of the document book signed by Hohberg says, "Enclosed please find the desired survey of the economic enterprises of the WVHA," and the part of the document following that is also similar to Document 382 up to page 28. Then from 29 through page 33 of the document there appears unfinished work of Staff-W, and it is also signed by Hohberg.
I might say that this first series of documents in the SS industries is designed to show the nature of the W staff, members of which were Volk, Hohberg and Baier.
At page 34, I offer document NO-1261 as Exhibit 385. This is a memorandum from the Defendant Volk to the Defendant Pohl, dated the first of September, regarding the reorganization of offices, Amt 3-A. Amt 3-A was a precursor to office group W. Therein is a reference to the German Clay and Brick Works, porcelain manufacturies, Allach/ Munich, and other industries under Pohl. On the second page industries under 3-B and 3-C are referred to. Office group 3 was renamed office group W.
On page 38 I offer Document NO-1019 as Exhibit 386. This is a letter from Goering to Himmler dated the 26th of August, 1941. The first part of the first paragraph reads: "In order to fulfill the task given to me by the Fuehrer, namely to exploit the economic capacities of and the stocks found in the newly occupied Eastern territories to the utmost in the interest of the German war economy, I see myself forced to centralize and direct strictly all the economic power of the Eastern territory."
At page 41, I offer Document NO-2133 as Exhibit 387. This is a letter from Maurer to the Defendant Georg Loerner stating that Pohl has decided that the Stutthof concentration camp site will be purchased. In paragraph 2 of the letter he states, "The area used and built up by the camp now is to be bought.
Negotiations about the sale are conducted by Dr. Volk and me." This shows another function of Staff "in the negotiation for the concentration camp sites in which SS industries were to be located. In paragraph 3 he says, "Negotiations about this sale of the property are, conducted by Dr. Volk with the Chief of Office 1.
"4. With regard to the order of the Reichsfuehrer SS, Stutthof shall have a capacity of 25,000 inmates." It is signed by Maurer of Amtsgruppe D.
The following document at page 43, NO-2159, I offer as Exhibit 388. This is a memorandum to Baier and Volk signed by Dr. Hofmann of the legal section of the WVHA regarding concentration camp Stutthof. It refers in the first paragraph to the fact that after the transfer of the real estate of the Stutthof concentration camp to the German Economic Enterprises, the DWB, that certain legal procedure must be carried out.
At page 46, I offer Document NO-1287 as Exhibit 389. This is a letter dated the 29th of January '42 signed by Kammler of Amtsgruppe C, and it concerns the support of the aluminum foundry at Fallersleben. The SS is to supply the workers, the document says. The document also indicates that Loerner, Kammler, Hohberg and Porsche took part in the conferences.
The following document has already been offered.
DR. KRAUSS (For Defendant Tschentscher): Your Honor, I have to inform you of the fact that Document Book No. 14 also has only been submitted to the defense information room in the course of this afternoon, and furthermore that the greatest part of the books have not been distributed or had not been distributed to the defense counsels. Therefore, we are not in a position to know the contents of this book. I wish to draw your attention to the fact that the twenty-four hours arranged for has not been kept up for the second time. I shall leave it up to this Tribunal to draw its own conclusions from this fact.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Robbins, there appear to be so many instances in which something hasn't been completed, I wonder if we would really save time if we would give you over the week-end to get this document book in order and give the defense what they are entitled to? If it is just a matter of using the time, it perhaps could be better used in getting the book in order.
MR. ROBBINS: I think that is very well, your Honor. I believe that this document book, however, is complete. It is entirely complete in English, and I was told that it was complete in German as well as in English. However, if the defendants insist on that point -
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is of the opinion that the Defense is put at too great a handicap in taking these exhibits provisionally and that perhaps your own task will be facilitated if you have a chance to organize this book in a little more complete manner.
MR. ROBBINS: Very well.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess, then, until Monday morning at 9:30.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 21 April 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal II in the matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 21 April 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: All persons present in the court room please take your seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Tribunal No. 2 Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session.
God Save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
MR. ROBBINS: Your Honor, the prosecution would like to call Dr. Engler as a witness. I think, however, that he is not here yet. He will be here any moment and until he comes I would like to go ahead and present some documents.
THE PRESIDENT: One of the defendants is not here, the Defendant Fanslau. We understand he has been taken back to the jail for some medical attention.
The Marshal reports that the defendant has had some difficulties with his eyes and is afflicted with dizziness and will probably not be physically able to attend this session of court. The record will show his absence and the order of the Tribunal that we proceed in his absence.
MR. ROBBINS: We understand that the witness Engler is outside.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness, Engler, the Marshall will please bring that witness to the court room.
HERBERT ENGLER, a witness took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SPEIGHT:
Q Will you raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SPEIGHT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, your name is Herbert Engler, E-N-G-L-E-R?
A Yes.
Q And where are you living at the present time?
A I did not understand your question.
(The interpreter repeated the question.)
A I am now living at Frankfurt am Main.
Q And what is your address there, please?
A Poggenheimer Landstrassd 37.
Q Where and when were you born, Dr. Engler?
A On the 21st of June, 1902, in Schwieburg.
Q That is in Germany?
A Yes, that is in Germany in Brandenburg.
Q And you are a German citizen?
A Yes, I am a German citizen.
Q You received your Doctorate of Law from the University of Rostock in 1924?
A Yes.
Q And what is your present position?
A I didn't understand that.
(The interpreter repeated the question.)
A I am a Ministerial Counselor in the Hessian Labor Ministry.
Q That is Ministerialrat in the Ministry for Labor for Hessian?
A Yes, I'm in charge of the Department for Labor.
Q And you are immediately under the Ministry of Labor for Hessian?
In my department I'm the representative of the Hessian Ministry of Labor.
Q And before the war you were an attorney?
A No, I was an industrial lawyer and lawyer for a corporation and in this capacity I was a representative of the Employers' Association.
Q And have you written several books on legal subjects, Doctor?
A I have written seven books and they mainly deal with labor questions.
Q When were you arrested first, Doctor?
A I was arrested on the 2d of March, 1933.
Q And for what reason were you arrested?
AAt that time I was living at Hamburg and I tried to bring about the general strike and to thus prevent the coming into power of Hitler.
Q You were then an officer of the Socialistic Democratic Party of Germany.
A I was a functionary of that Socialistic Democratic Party, that is correct.
Q And how long were you hold at that time by the police?
AAt that time, the arrest was only very short, that is, only a few weeks.
Q Were you interrogated and beaten?
A Yes, the police arrested me at Hamburg, but it was the SA who mistreated me and beat me.
Q And between that time and 1940 what happened to you, Doctor?
A In 1940 I was arrested, that is, on the 20th of March.
Q On the 20th of March, you were arrested by whom?
A I was arrested by the officials of the Gestapo office at Frankfurt.