You may not have known it when you joined the SS; you may not have known from reading the Party program that such excesses would be reached; but it wasn't long until you found out that one of the main purposes of the Nazi Party was to persecute -- we won't say exterminate -- but to persecute the Jews?
A Your Honor, may I draw your attention to the fact that at that time in the press and rallies it was pointed out that this had been a responsive demonstration on the part of the people because of the murder of the attache in Paris. It would have been a symptom of popular wrath. We did not know the real background.
Q When did you find out the real background?
A All I knew was that the Jews in the war were herded together on ghettoes and in concentration camps. A direct extermination program I never heard anything about.
Q No, but you say that the real background of the November 10 demonstration was not known at the time. There came a time, however, when you learned just what had happened. When was that?
A One could hear quite generally that on that so-called Crystal Sunday Jewish windows had been smashed and Jewish shops were plundered. One could hear that quite generally. One needn't be an SS leader for that. That was known quite generally.
Q When did you find out that the SS had a directing hand in this demonstration, this violence?
A How far the SS was involved in this, I never heard. I did not have the position to find out that.
Q This is just a matter of information. Why was it called the Crystal Sunday? I've heard that phrase several times.
A Because all the crystal windows had been smashed in the shops. That's why it is called Crystal Sunday.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes (A recess was taken).THE MARSHAL:
The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, for just a moment I want to direct your detention to the memorandum of Baier, which you discussed on Direct Examination, Exhibit 86. I don't think it is necessary for you to turn to it.
In Baier's file memorandum he states that Pohl has ordered that he is to participate in the work of drawing up the camp regulations, and that you and Salpeter are to be consulted. That is Pohl's order. Do you want us to believe that you at no time had any conversation about this matter, and that you learned about it for the first time when you saw the document here in court?
A. In my direct examination I have already stated that I didn't participate in any conference as mentioned here.
Q. I ask you if this was the first time you heard about it when you saw the document in court?
A. It is possible that I learned that I was to be consulted. I have already stated before what the reason was, because I knew the terms about the employment of laborers with the Reichs authorities, and apparently -
Q. When you say "laborers" you mean inmate laborers, don't you?
A. No, I don't. I mean regular workers who were employed by the Reich normally, and for whom there were specific regulations.
Q. And you say that you never had any conversation with anyone pursuant to Pohl's order that you discuss these camp regulations?
A. No. It is possible that I heard somehow that I was to be consulted. However, I was not consulted.
Q. And you didn't talk to anybody about these regulations?
A. The camp regulations were to be set up new, as can be seen from the document. In other words, it was nothing but a new setting up where I was to be consulted, and apparently something new was to be created here. That was the reason why I was supposed to be consulted.
Q. And you at no time saw these new camp regulations?
A. No, I cannot recall ever having seen them, and I don't know if such a regulation was ever set up.
Q. You wish to tell us that you didn't see the regulations, or you just cannot remember having seen them?
A. Well, I cannot recall any longer having seen such regulations. I do not want to exclude the possibility of having seen them. However, I have no recollection, so to speak, that I ever saw a camp regulation concerning the employment of inmates.
Q. And you also wish to say that you cannot remember having discussed these camp regulations, discussed the procedure of setting them up?
A. I know for sure that I did not participate in those conferences, nor was I called upon to do so.
Q. You keep saying "conferences." I am asking you if you discussed it with anyone. I am not talking about a formal conference. Did you talk to Salpeter about this, or Baier, or Pohl, formally or informally?
A. No. It is possible that Baier informed me about the order of Pohl, namely, that I was to be consulted when they set up a new plan. This possibility exists. However, when this plan was worked out, I was not consulted. I believe I couldn't state in anymore clearly than that.
Q. Now, for a moment I would like to ask you about the Amt A-II. Did you tell us that you were at no time in charge of this Amt, you at no time had supervision over A-II?
A. I have stated that after the Chief of Office A-II, Obersturmbannfuehrer Eggert, was transferred at Easter 1944, I also supervised Amt A-II. However, I was not appointed Chief of Office, because the position of the Chief of Office had been eliminated.
Q. And what date was this that you started to supervise A-II?
A. Well, that was at Easter of 1944. I believe it was in April.
Q. Can you tell us how often you had conferences with Melmer?
A. I have stated before that Melmer was never under my orders. The treasury as I have already stated before also --
Q. I didn't ask you that. I just asked you how often you conferred with Melmer. If you didn't confer at all, just say so.
A. No, he was not under my supervision.
Q. Did you ever talk to him; did you ever speak to him?
A. It is possible that I spoke to him once or twice. However, he was not under my supervision, therefore I could not discuss official matters with him.
Q. How often did you confer with the Defendant Vogt?
A. I couldn't tell you today. I didn't have much contact with Amt A-IV. I have mentioned today that when the 300,000 Marks were repaid I had some business with him. However, generally speaking Amt A-I had nothing to do with Amt A-IV.
Q. That was the only time you ever had any connections with A-IV?
A. It is possible that we discussed certain matters sometimes, or that we spoke to each other, or then that there was a matter in which A-I or A-IV were interested. However, I really cannot recall the details today, and apart from that Amt A-IV was at a distance of approximately one hundred kilometers from Berlin.
Q. How often did you confer with Fanslau?
A. I have already stated that Fanslau did not have any expert knowledge in my field of task, and therefore I didn't consult him in those matters.
Q. Can't you answer my question more briefly? I just asked you, how often did you confer with Fanslau? You don't have to discuss his sphere of duties and your sphere of duties.
A. Yes, well, maybe three or four times a week, or then in three weeks maybe we didn't have a single conference.
Q. How often did you have conferences with Pohl?
A. It varied considerably. It could be twice within two weeks. However, it could be that there was no conference whatsoever within three months. It all depended on when Pohl desired conferences, and then the question was if I had anything to report to him.
As far as the organization Todt, T-o-d-t, was concerned, I always gave him the reports about the proposals made there, and that occurred perhaps once a month.
Q. How often did you confer with Frank?
A. Until Frank left the conferences also varied. It could be two or three times a week, or then I wouldn't see him at all for four or six weeks.
Q. Did you ever have a conference with Kammler?
A. I cannot recall having had any conferences with Kammler.
Q. Were you ever in a conference with Gluecks?
A. I had nothing to do with Gluecks. I only knew Gluecks from sight. I didn't have any official connections with him.
Q. Did you ever have any kind of a conference with anyone in Amtsgruppe D?
A. I spoke with Chief of Office D-II in Amtsgruppe D, and Office Chief D-IV. I can recall one conference with the Chief of Office D-II. We discussed the transfer of money that belonged to the inmates from one Reich agency to another Reichs agency. Let me give an example. The garden in Dachau employed inmates, and the treasury of the concentration camp at Dachau asked that the pay be sent to them. Of course, it wouldn't have made any sense because the payment would have taken place from one Reich agency to another Reich agency. Therefore, I had conferences with Maurer, namely that those transfers should be discontinued, and that his agencies should receive the necessary orders to that effect. I had conferences with Burger, B-u-r-g-e-r, with reference to the female guards in the concentration camps. In line with the simplification of the procedure of the administration in the entire Wehrmacht, of which the Waffen-SS was a part, a new procedure was to be instituted for women who worked in the Wehrmacht office. I informed Burger to carry out the preliminary organization for those supervisors who also belonged to that sphere in order to expedite matters when these new regulations would go into effect.
Q What did you confer with D-4 about? You said you conferred with some of the officials in D-4?
A Yes, I spoke with Maurer and with Burger.
Q And were those the only conferences with officials of D that you had?
A These were the conferences which I can recall. It is possible that I spoke with Maurer or Burger at another date. However, I can't recall any exact date. In any case, I didn't have any conferences with D-1 or D-3. I didn't have any connection with these matters.
Q Did you have any conferences with anyone in Amtsgruppe C, other than Kammler, whom you said you didn't confer with?
A I can recall that I spoke with one official of Amtsgruppe C. At the time we were dealing with the establishment of a Construction Savings Account, and the savings Association of the SS was to be consulted for that, and the man in charge, or the expert there came to see me, whose name I cannot recall, and conferred with me as to how those things should be carried out so that he could submit these proposals to his chief.
Q Is that the only conference you recall with officials of C?
A It is possible that we discussed budget matters once or twice. I say it is possible.
Q Do you recall any conferences of Amtsgruppe W?
A Do you mean D, for dog?
Q W.
A W, yes. I have today mentioned the conference with Dr. Volk with regard to the repayment of the 300,000 marks; then, furthermore, I possibly spoke with Baier about my potential participation by working out the new wage scale, but then I can't recall any conferences with anybody else, and particularly with W, because I had nothing to do with W.
Q Did you have any business conferences with any official in Amtsgruppe B?
A No. Well, I had conferences with Tschentscher who had taken over Office B-1 in order to draw his attention to the current happenings.
However, I had not other connections with Amtsgruppe B because in my office. I, I had nothing to do with food, clothing and billeting. I only had contact with Scheide when I needed a car for my official trips, because he was in charge of the motor pool.
Q Did you ever have a conference with anyone in B-2? No conference at all with any official in B-2?
A You mean B, for Baker?
Q Yes, B-2.
A You mean Obersturmbannfuehrer Lechler. It is possible that we discussed a few things. However, officially we didn't have any conferences. Maybe sometimes we discussed budgetary matters for his clothing works. It is possible that we discussed those things.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other questions of this witness?
DR. RAUSCHENBACH (Counsel for the defendant H. Loerner) Your Honor, I have no further questions for the re-examination, and if there are no further questions I believe I can now conclude the examination of the witness Hans Loerner. However, there might be other Defense counsel who may have a question or two.
THE PRESIDENT: Apparently there are none.
All right, the Marshal will place the defendant in the dock.
DR. SCHMIDT (Counsel for the defendant J. Vogt): Your Honors, the Defense in the case of Joseph Vogt, intend to simply call the defendant Joseph Vogt in the witness dock and, this presentation of evidence at the same time, to submit several document book and in an additional book.
I am not quite sure if this Tribunal has already received these document books in the English copy.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Shall we call the defendant to the witness stand? Shall we call the defendant to the witness stand?
DR. SCHMIDT: Yes, indeed.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Do you say that your document books have been circulated?
DR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, in the defense information center we have already distributed the books, the document books, in both English and German. I received the German copies and also a few English copies.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I will make further inquiry.
JOSEF VOGT, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, raise your right hand, please, and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: Please be seated.
BY DR. SCHMIDT:
Q Witness, would you tell this Tribunal first of all very briefly your professional career until you joined the administration of the SS, and also you curriculum vitae?
A I was born on the 18th of February, 1884, in Urspringen in Lower Franconia. My father was a teacher at a community school. I am married; I have three children, one daughter and two sons. I visited the regular school from my tenth year on, and I attended the Humanitarian Gymnasium up until the fifth grade. When I was 19 I joined the NCO school. I studied there for three years and then signed up for 12 years of service. In the year 1906 I was permitted to become an adjutant petty officer in the administration, and after having completed my training I was used in the administration of the army with various units as a paymaster. In the 1914-1918 World War I participated, second clerk. I was wounded twice. Towards the end of 1918 I was promoted to paymaster with the rank of a First Lieutenant. In March 1920, due to the dissolution of the German army I was released from military service. Immediately afterwards I worked in Civil Service in the Office for Claims of wounded veterans. I completed my examination there for the higher grade of service and I became an administrative inspector. My last civilian agency was the Medical Examination School at Munich.
Q What brought about your entry into the administrative office of the SS?
AAs I already explained before, my profession was that of a military administrator. After the increase in the strength of the army started in 1906, I again wanted to serve in the army administrative service.
Q. Excuse me, did you say 1906?
A I said 1936. A request which I made in Munich in the Wehrkreis Administration No. VII was disapproved. The representative of the auditign court. Ambsrat Gerner referred me to the special task groups of the SS. He drew to my attention to the fact that the administration of the SS Special Task Groups was looking for former paymasters with expert knowledge in order to employ them. He had already reported me to the personnel office there.
A Little while after that I was called in for a conference by the Chief of the Personnel Office, Obersturmbannfuehrer Bachl. There the details of my employment were discussed. I was told that I might be used in a Budgetary office of the SS Special Task Troops, in order to be used in the Auditing Department there. Furthermore I was told that I might be able to get a promotion later on, if I did all right, and I would receive with the rank of Sturmbannfuehrer in an office which was included in the budget. These assurances actually compelled me to give my consent to join the SS Special Task Troops, because as an inspector my salary was rather small. I had three children who were to be trained professionally and who needed all my money. There was hardly any chance for me to get a promotion in my civilian job, because I was not a member of the Party. However, my transfer to the SS could not take place immediately in 1936 because positions included in the budget were not vacant. That was the reason why I was used as a part-time employee in the Auditing Court. On the 1st of April, 1937, by the Reich Labor Ministry which was my superior authority, upon the application of the Administrative Office of the SS, my resignation was approved, so that I could work in the SS, with my previous salary as an inspector. On the 1st of April, 1938, after having received the approval of the Budgetary Office of the SS Special Task Troops I was transferred to a position provided in the budget as Obersturmfuehrer.
DR. SCHMIDT: Mr. President, After the witness has made this statement I would like, in order to strengthen his testimony with reference to the reasons which caused his transfer to the Administrative Office of the SS -- I would like to show you a document, which is an affidavit by the Ex-chief of the Personnel Office of the Administrative Office of the SS in Munich, whose name is Eduard Bach. It is contained in Document Book No. 1, page 1 of the German, pages 1 to 2. I would like to introduce this document as Exhibit Josef Vogt No. 1.
MR. ROBBINS: I should like to reserve the right of the prosecution to object to these documents at a later date.
I haven't received a copy of them as yet.
DR. SCHMIDT: I am in a position to give the prosecution an English copy of the Document Book.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I expect you will have to loan me one this afternoon. I may have one in my office.
DR. SCHMIDT: In order to save time, I would like simply to introduce this affidavit by Eduard Bach and I don't want to read it. I would appreciate it if this Tribunal would take judicial notice of the contents of this affidavit.
In this connection I would like to take the liberty of introducing a second document, which is an affidavit by one named Kurt Ihssen, Naval captain retired. From 1932 to 1934 he lived in the same house with the Defendant Vogt in Munich and he is well acquainted with both his personal and family relationship. The affidavit is Document Josef Vogt No. 2. It is also contained in the Document Book on pages 3 to 7. I shall introduce this as Vogt Exhibit No. 2. From this longer affidavit here, which also contains other points, I would only like to read one paragraph. That is paragraph 6 of the German copy. In the English copy it is also paragraph 6 on page 4 at the bottom of the page:
"About the beginning of 1936, - I cannot recall the exact date Herr Vogt approached me with another request, namely whether it would not be possible to secure his re-employment in the military administration, because he was a soldier with all his heart. I discussed the matter with the competent administrative agency, at Corps Area Headquarters VII (Oberstabszahlmeister Rubenbauer). Thereupon, Vogt submitted the appropriate application for re-employment. However, as far as I can remember, when, later on, I inquired at Corps Area Headquarters VII, I was informed that the existing vacancies had been filled."
Q Witness, towards the end you spoke of the fact than from the 1st of April, 1938 on, you were transferred to the SS Administration. To what administrative agency that you were transferred at that time?
A I was transferred to the Preliminary Auditing Department of the Main Auditing office of the Administrative Office of the SS, as an special expert for the SS VT. There I had to carry out the preliminary auditing of the accounts of the Treasury of the SS Special Task Troops and also the extraordinary auditing of the Treasury.
Q What units of the Special Task Troops were subordinated to your Preliminary Auditing Activity in the Office?
A In my field of tasks, the treasuries of the SS-Regiment Deutschland, the SS-Regiment Germania, the Combat Engineer Units and Signal Units were subordinated to me.
Q Did you have to carry out the preliminary auditing of the Death Head Units at the time?
A No, the Death Head Units were audited by some other office. They were audited up by Dr. Lange.
Q At that time did you have to carry out the preliminary auditing of the accounts of the concentration camps?
A No, these also were checked by some other office, to be exact by the Chief Inspector of the Police Hauptsturmfuehrer Heiden.
Q As you just told us, you were in the Main Auditing Department of the Administrative Office of the SS in Munich. Were you at that time appointed the chief of that department or of that main office?
A No, I only worked there as an expert.
Q Were you the deputy for the Chief of that Office?
A No.
Q How long did you remain in the Auditing Department?
A Until the middle of August 1939.
Q And what happened then?
A That department was then dissolved.
Q The Auditing Department was dissolved?
A Yes.
Q And what happened to you?
A I was transferred as an administrative officer to the Death Head Regiment at Dachau. That transfer I refused, because I was not part of the Death Head Unit Budget, so to speak, but I was under the supervision of the SS Special Task Troops. I became sick. Early in September I received a special assignment to represent the Administrative Chief of the Munich Garrison. From there early in October, 1939, I was transferred to the Berlin Office, K-I.
Q What kind of an office was that?
A Office K.I. was the corps administration of the SS Special Task groups and had the tasks of a medium level, and was under the supervision both disciplinarily and administratively of the SS Operational Main Office.
Q Did Office K. I. become the administrative office of the Waffen SS later on?
A Yes.
Q That office was not the Main Office of the SS, was it?
A No, as I have stated before, it was an office of the medium level and it was incorporated into the Operational Main Office.
Q Would you like to tell this Tribunal now what your activity consisted of at the time in the administration corps area?
A Well, I was in charge of the auditing department. My task was to carry out the preliminary auditing of the accounts, of the treasuries, of the newly established SS divisions, at the time. Apart from that I had to carry out the extraordinary auditing of the accounts of these treasures.
Q What kind of newly established SS divisions were these? Could you tell us some names of those divisions?
A They were the Divisions Leibstandarte, Division Reich, the Police Division, and the Death Head Division.
Q You just spoke of the Death Head Division, is that the same unit which formerly dealt with the guarding of concentration camps, or is this some other units?
A No, the Death Head Division was a combat unit and had nothing to do with the guarding of the concentration camps.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO):
Q Originally they were guards, were they not? Weren't the Death Head units originally guards in the concentration camps?
AAccording to my recollection the personnel from those Death Head units was transferred to the Death Head Division. In other words, the Death Head Division was formed from the ranks of the Death Head units.
Q But you just said a moment ago that the Death Head units had nothing to do with guarding concentration camps. I now ask you if they did not originally serve as guards.
A Your Honor, may I point out something here? The Death Head Division which I am talking about had been set up as a fighting unit and it consisted of personnel of the former Death Head units.
Q Which served as guards originally?
A Yes.
Q That's right. Thank you.
BY DR. SCHMIDT:
Q Witness, do you know whether the Death Head Division which you just mentioned consisted of other units also, or did it simply and exclusively consist of the members of the Death Head units who were guards in the concentration camps?
A I am not very well informed about this Death Head Division. If I were to say something here, it would be nothing but an assumption on my part. I couldn't give you any correct information on that.
Q In this auditing department, in Office K. I., as you just said, you had to carry out the extraordinary checking of accounts with the treasuries of the army and also you had to carry out the preliminary checking for the auditing court. Did that activity of yours at the time also extend to the treasures of concentration camps?
A No. The Office K. I. had nothing to do with the concentration camps. The preliminary auditing of the concentration camps at the time was under the supervision of the Main Office Budget and Construction, which was the ministerial level; and to be exact, it was part of the tasks of Office I/1.
DR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, in this connection I should like to draw to your attention the prosecution document NO-620, which was Exhibit Number 33 in Document Book Number 2. That is an organizational chart of the Budget and Construction Office; and from that chart it can be seen that in that office I/1 such a preliminary auditing office for the accounting service had been established.
That is the agency which the witness has just mentioned in his last answer as being competent for the auditing of the treasuries of the concentration camps.
Q Did you have anything to do with the Office Budget and Construction at the time?
A No, the Main Office Budget and Construction was the ministerial level all right. However, my activity as preliminary auditing I had nothing to do with the preliminary checking of Office Budget and Construction.
Q Were you ever active in that office?
A No.
Q Now I shall speak about the establishment of the WVHA on the 1st of February 1942. From that moment on you became the chief of the auditing office A IV. Did your field of tasks of your sphere of activities show a change factually?
A There was a factual change insofar as the supervision of the treasuries, the auditing of the treasuries, was transferred to the subordinated agencies of the medium level. My office retained only the preliminary auditing of the three hundred office treasuries, that existed at the time. The change occurred only in the extension of my sphere of activities due to the fact that the office for preliminary auditing of the Main Office Budget and Construction was incorporated into this auditing office. The extension, however, was unimportant at the time. It amounted to between five per cent, of the entire office.
DR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I shall now come to those various tasks, and I believe that this would be a perfect moment to call a recess before I touch on this subject.
THE. PRESIDENT: Without objection, the Tribunal will recess until Monday morning at 0930.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 0930 Monday morning the 16th of June.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 16 June 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 16 June 1947, 0940-1630, Justice Robert M. Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II. Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.
JOSEPH VOGT - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
DR. SCHMIDT: Dr. Schmidt for the defendant Joseph Vogt. Your Honor, may I continue my examination of the witness on the dock?
I would like to speak now about the field of task of Amt A-IV and that in detail. Before I put any questions to that effect to the defendant, I would like to read to this Tribunal various regulations, legal regulations, which are in close connection with the auditing of accounts. The defendant in his statements will refer to many of those regulations and I believe that the Tribunal will be able to understand the matter much better if it knows these regulations.
First of all I shall introduce an excerpt from the Reich Budget Order or Reich Budget Regulations. It is Document No. 3 in my document book for Joseph Vogt, Reich Budget Report, printed in the Reich Legal Gazette, 1923, Part II, page 17. That is dated the 31st of December, 1922. I shall introduce this document as Exhibit Joseph Vogt No. 3.
Furthermore, there is an excerpt from the Reich Treasury Regulations of the 6th of August, 1927, Reich Ministerial Gazette, on page 357. It is in document book - or rather it is in my document book as Document No. 4 and will become Joseph Vogt Exhibit No. 4. Then I would like to introduce another regulation, which is an excerpt from the Reich Auditing Supervision Regulations in Document Book Joseph Vogt, as Document No. 5. That is a special law for the 3rd of July, 1929, which is contained in the report, Reich Ministerial Gazette, page 349. I shall introduce this document as Exhibit No. 5.
Then we have a report, or an excerpt rather, from the PreliminaryExamination Regulation, and it is Document No. 6 in our document book. The preliminary examination regulations for the provinces are contained in the Reich Ministerial Gazette from page 108 onwards, dated 1937. It will become Exhibit Vogt No. 6.
Finally I have an excerpt from Regulations in Accounting and Auditing during the War. It is a Reich law of the 5th of July, 1940. This law is also called the war-control law. It is contained in the Reich Legal Gazette, Part II, on page 139. In Document Book Joseph Vogt it is contained as Document No. 7 and it will become Exhibit No. 7.