AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 21 April 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the courtroom please take their seats. Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: Your Honor, I have two questions on redirect for the witness Engler.
HERBERT ENGLER - Resumed REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Dr. Engler, what kind of work was being done at the Klinker SK works, the punitive detail works, at Sachsenhausen?
A. There were only stone works done there; that is, in other words, transport of stones, the unloading and uploading of stones into ships, into carriages. If I should summarize, it was only the heaviest work which was to be done in the Klinker works.
Q. You had to lift stones onto lorries and onto beats, is that right?
A. Well, we had to take the stones from the stone magazines and put them on the carriages and from there we transported them to the harbor which had been established there in the brick works. These carriages, which contained 400 stones each, had to be transported for a distance of 500 meters, or a little less, perhaps. We had to push them double time or with two inmates and at the harbor we had to unload then and there were other inmates in the boat which then again loaded the stones on the boat.
Q. You have told us that the DEST, the Deutsche Erd- und Steinwerke, industry had nothing to do with the assignment of laborers to work in the Klinker SK works, is that correct?
A. The labor assignment was done - was assigned - by the camp but it is true that the members of the Klinker punitive details were assigned for work at the DEST and to exercise the activity in the manner I just described.
Q. Was this a DEST plant that the punitive detail was working in?
A. Well, that was the brick works, the main brick works, in other words, an enterprise which belonged to DEST.
Q. And the inmates in the punitive detail were carrying out the work of the DEST, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Robbins, was this at Sachsenhausen?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the reference to the harbor? Is there one?
MR. ROBBINS: I believe there was a canal there. I will ask the witness.
Q. Where did the loading on the boats cone in, Doctor?
A. Well, the loading of the boats was done in the harbor. This harbor had been established for this purpose alone and I think had been built by DEST.
Q. Was there a canal built at Sachsenhausen or is that a natural harbor?
A. No, maybe you could put it that way. The Klinker road was in the harbor. It would be more correct to speak of a channel and a canal. There had been a side channel free this main channel and perhaps established a sort of harbor where the stones could be loaded. That is the so-called harbor or channel, This was a branch channel, the name of which I cannot remember right now.
Q. Did the DEST have to pay for the use of the inmates in the punitive detail?
A. The DEST had to pay for the inmates which worked in the punitive detail.
Q What were the hours of work in the Klinker SK?
A I didn't quite understand the question.
Q What was the length of the workday there, the period of time?
A In the Punitive Company, you mean?
Q Yes.
A They would work from 6:00 o'clock in the morning until 6:00 o'clock in the evening. Then we received some bread. After dinner very often, if I may say so, almost all of us had to go out for work again as far as it was possible if the weather permitted it. Also, we had to work outside as far as it was possible from a weather viewpoint. In other words, during the winter we couldn't go out for work again because it was already dark.
Q Then was the workday from twelve to fourteen hours each day?
A Sometimes we worked more than fourteen hours a day.
Q Was that Saturdays and Sundays as well as every other day in the week?
A In the Punitive Company we also had to work on Sundays. Sometimes we had to work the whole Sunday and sometimes only until 1:00 o'clock.
Q Now, can you give us some idea of the rate of deaths in the Klinker SK?
A In the Klinker SK, the Punitive Company, as I have already told the Tribunal this morning, the inmates could not survive as a general rule a period of four weeks. In order to give you the figures of the death rate, I shall have to say that during only one month, of sixty-five men who composed the Linker Punitive Company, nineteen inmates died. They died because they went through the guard chain, preferring suicide to the cruel treatment in the Klinker Punitive Company.
Q Now, you stated before the recess that some of the DEST officials aimed at obtaining the release of a small number of prisoners. Do you know of anyone who was released from the concentration camp at the instigation of the DEST industry?
A I know some inmates, and the reason is because they later on worked at the Klinker works as civilian workers or as labor assigned, labor recruited.
Q From where had they been released?
A I was released on the 21st of April, 1945.
Q I beg your pardon, from where were the inmates that you have just referred to released? From what camp?
A They were released from the main camp Sachsenhausen
Q They were assigned to do what kind of work?
A I know some who later on were in accountancy with us, that is, either as accountants or as clerks. Also, in some cases they were drafted for work as civilian workers.
Q How many such inmates did you know of?
AAt the present time I can remember only some of them, maybe five or six.
Q Did you know a man by the name of Schendorf at Sachsenhausen?
A What was the name of that man?
Q Schendorf, (Spelling) S-c-h-e-n-d-r-f.
A No, this man was a man who was the Sturmbannfuehrer Schendorf was in charge at the brick works.
Q What reputation did Schondorf have in the camp for his treatment of prisoners?
A He had the worst reputation one could think of.
Q What kind of treatment did he administer to the inmates?
A Schondorf aimed at getting the highest possible output from the inmates. According to my estimate the reason was that he wanted to get into the favor of the Amtschef who at that time was Obersturmbannfuehrer Mummenthey, and perhaps also only in order to satisfy Munnenthey.
Q Was Schondorf immediately under Mummenthey?
A Yes.
Q He was responsible to Mummenthey?
A He was responsible to Mummenthey.
Q And, Dr. Engler, you mentioned the legal adviser to the inmates in Sachsenhausen, and you said that you were the legal adviser for a period of three weeks. I ask you again, was there a legal adviser before you were appointed to that position?
A There as no legal adviser for the inmates before I was appointed at Sachsenhausen; at least as far as I know there was none.
Q Was there a legal adviser in Sachsenhausen after you were received of your duties in that position?
A I didn't hear that there was a successor to me in this post because then I was no longer in the custody camp of Sachsenhausen but in the Klinker camp, that is, in the Punitive Company, the Klinker SK Company, and we were entirely excluded from the rest of the camp because the location of the Klinker Punitive Company was completely isolated. That is, there was barbed wire all around it.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS):
Q Are you Jewish?
A No.
Q Were there any Jews in the camp?
A Yes, there were Jews in the camp.
Q Was there any difference in the treatment of the Jews and the other people?
A The Jews in the camp were treated worse than the Aryans.
Q Can you estimate about how many people died as a result of mistreatment and starvation and overwork during the years 1941 and 1942?
A I could not give you that figure, Your Honor. I could only name the figures which we had registered as that; and those figures I have already given this morning, with an average of eight hundred per month.
Q Now, you were speaking this morning of the labor in the Punitive Company; and you testified that the DEST had nothing to do with this labor. Do you know who received the benefit of this labor?
A Well, the Klinker Punitive Company was assigned for work for the DEST; but as far as the orders were concerned, they were under the camp commander. As far as labor assignment was concerned, they were under the DEST, and they were employed by the DEST.
Q How many people were there in this company, this Punitive Company?
A The average number of inmates in the Punitive Company would have been sixty to sixty-five.
Q How often would the personnel of that company change?
A The Klinker SK received replacements almost every day from the large camp, from the main camp. The dead were always replaced by newcomers; and that is why the figure in the average was what I just told you.
Q What was your daily ration of food during 1941 and 1942?
A Well, I could not give you the quantity of calories exactly; but I know that the food was not sufficient to compensate for the work which was demanded from the inmates. I could only tell you what we received at that time.
Q What did you receive?
A Everyday, that is, in the morning, we received half a liter of coffee or soup. At noon we would receive a liter of soup. In the evening, we received half a liter of soup and sometimes even a liter of soup. In addition in the evening we had about 350 grams of bread. This bread which was distributed in the evening had to suffice for the next morning. In other words, whoever ate his bread in the evening in most cases in the morning had only half a liter of coffee. After he had then taken his coffee he had to start work. Therefore, of course, exhaustion of the inmates very quickly appeared; and that was very often after two or three hours of work only.
Q What nations were represented in the camp? In other words, were there French, and Belgians, and Russians?
A I can say that almost every nation was represented in the camp, that is, Germans, Russians, French, also some Italians, Belgians, Dutch, Norwegians, and in fact men who had been brought from the countries which at that time were occupied by Germany and who were sent , to the concentration camp.
Q Were any prisoners of war there?
A In the concentration camp of Sachsenhausen there was a camp for PW's; but this camp was isolated.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, how did you happen to be released?
THE WITNESS: I was released after the camp Sachsenhausen two years ago was evacuated. That is to say, the inmates wore to be transferred into another camp, and as we were told to be transferred to Luebeck, but the inmates did not get to this camp any more, as they were liberated by the Americans on the 2nd May 1945.
Q Then you were liberated because they did not have time to move you out before the American troops arrived?
A I did not quite get that question, Your Honor.
Q The reason you were liberated was because the Germans did not have time to move you further cast before the Americans arrived?
A Yes, that is correct, Your Honor.
Q That was two years ago today, wasn't it?
A Yes, today is the day which is the day of memory to me, if I may say it.
Q Your second anniversary?
A Yes, my second anniversary of gloomy memories if one considers the rest of the time.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further cross examination.
DR.FROESCHMAN: Dr. Froeschman for the defendant Mummenthey. Mr President, I have only one question which results from the re-direct examination.
BY. DR. FROESCHMAN:
Q Witness, the name of Schondorf has been mentioned by you, and you said that Schondorf was under the direct authority of Mummenthey. From your activity in the legal department do you not know that Schondorf had a special position within the Dest - - within the DWB enterprise?
A From my activity I only know that Schondorf was the competent authority for the brick works.
Q Do you not know that the distribution of the office W-1 was made in a manner that the defendant Mummenthey had the Commercial Department, and the administration activity, while Schondorf had the technical direction, and he was directly under Pohl's order?
A I have no knowledge of that. I know from this distribution only the following: That already the brick works were under Sturmbannfuehrer Schondorf, while the quarries were under the Hauptsturmfuehrer Schwarz, and the Chinaware factory and the Diamond Cutting at Hertogenbosch were under Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Eggert. That is is what I remember.
Q Is it possible that from your activity taken there, that your information is not sufficient, that could be possible, couldn't it?
A It is possible, but I must say that I am of the opinion that it is like that even today.
DR. FROESCHMAN: Your Honor, I have no further questions of this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that all? Any further cross examination? The Marshal may take the witness from the courtroom.
(witness excused)
MC MCHANEY: Your Honor, the prosecution request the witness Kogon be summoned to the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness Kogon, please.
EUGEN KOGON, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Raise your right hard and repeat after me the oath: I swear by God the Almighty and Om niscient that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
You may be seated.
THE WITNESS: I swear.
BY MR. MCHANEY:
Q Witness, your name is Eugen Kogon?
A Yes.
Q You were born on February 2,1903, in Munich, Bavaria, Germany?
A Yes.
Q You are an Austrian Citizen?
A Yes, indeed.
Q What is your religion?
A I am a Roman Catholic.
Q Your present address is Ober Ursel,Am. Hang 36?
A Yes.
Q What is your present occupation?
A I am freelance writer, and I am editor of a monthly agriculture Frankfurt publication.
Q What is the name of this monthly publication again?
A The Frankfurt Periodicals, the Frankfurter Hefte.
Q What is the circulation of this publication.
A The publication of today has an edition of 50,000 and about 350,000 to 400,000 of the other readers.
Q How long have you been engaged in the publication of this periodical?
A I have been editor of this paper since the 1 April 1946.
Q What were you doing prior to that time, and, after your liberation?
A Immediately after my liberation I was collaborator of the Psychological Information in Paris, and then of the Information Control Division at JCD, Bad Homburg; from August 1945 I again was a freelance writer.
Q Will you outline for the Tribunal your education?
AAfter I had graduated from the German High School, I studied national economy and state politics at the Munich University. There I made my Volkswirt diploma, and then I studied Sociology at the Florence and Vienna Universities, and I graduated with the work of Cooperative State of the Fascists. From 1927 until '34, that in is the beginning of the year, I was a freelance writer, and a correspondent, and an editor. From 1934, that is March 1934, I was an administrator of a Hungarian-Austrian fortune Prince, Sachsen Coburg Gotha, until the 11 March 1936, and during the night from the 11th to the 12th of March 1938, when the German troops marched into Austria, I was arrested at Vienna by the Gestapo.
Q You said that you were managing a portion of the estate of the Prince Coburg ?
A The Austrian-Hungarian administration of property of a Prince of Sachsen Coburg Gotha Cohary.
Q Was that a responsible position which you had?
A I was the general trustee of the Prince for a fortune that had not been received and now a fortune under the trusteeship.
Q Can you give us some rough idea of the amount of this fortune over which you had done supervision?
A There was the financial administration covering a large domain of mining industry, of engine factories, and of banks.
Q How you said that you were arrested on March 11 1938?
A During the night from the 11th to the 12th of March 1938.
Q By the Gestapo?
A Yes, by the Gestapo, and even on the strength of a list which the Gestapo from Berlin had brought with them to Vienna.
Q And will you tell the Tribunal why you were arrested, and what was done with you following your arrest?
A Mainly on the activity in this administration of the Austrian-Hungarian fortune. During the years 1934 to 1938 I used this administration in order to maintain a most intimate contact with the foreign projects which worked against the National Socialism. I had reported about the happenings in Germany to the enemy of the National Socialism. I had given money, and I had been engaged in the organization of anti-Nazi activities at that time in Germany, as well as in Czecho-Slovakia, and Hungary, and Austria, and in Switzerland. I traveled quite a bit, and the most part of these activities were known to the Gestapo at Berlin.
Q Were you charged with any crime by the Gestapo and tried before a court of law?
A The Gestapo charged me with quite a number of parts in my activities, but without producing substantial proof for it, but a trial against me was not held. After about one and a half -- not quite a year and a half, by the order of the president of the Gestapo prison I was brought to the concentration camp at Buchenwald.
Q When did you arrive in Buchenwald?
A I came to Buchenwald on 22 September 1939.
Q. And how long did you remain in Buchenwald:
A I remained in the concentration camp of Buchenwald until 12 April 1945, that is the day of our liberation by the American troops.
A. Well, from the autumn of 1939 until about May 1941 I was in a mining detail as an earth worker, and later on as a blacksmith.
That is, from May 1941 until March 1943 I worked in the inmate tailor shop. From March 1943 until June 1943 I Was in the pathological department. From 6 June 1943 until 11 April 1945 I was the so-called first medical clerk with Sturmbannfuerher Dr. Ding Schuler in the department for the production of typhus vaccine, which was Block 50 at Buchenwald.
Q. Let's go over briefly your work as a digger, blacksmith and tailor. What sort of work did you do as a digger?
A My activity in the digging was at the troop garage in the area of the command of the concentration camp Buchenwald. As a blackwmith, I had to work more for the CAPO of our detail. As a digger I had very soon reached such a physical condition that after a few weeks I would certainly have perished. Friends of mine in the camp counseled me and advised me therefore to try to bribe the CAPO. I paid him from that moment on every month half of the money which I received from home; that is, half of 30 marks, and also part of what at that time we still could but at the inmate PX. That is the reason I was transferred to the blacksmith department for light work.
In 1941, when I came to the inmate tailor shop, again through the services of some of my comrades, there at first I had to do assistant's work, cutting SS uniforms and some work of that kind, and then from 1942 until 1943 I had to produce the clothes and separate the clothes and underclothes which came from the people who had been killed at Auschwitz and which came to Buchenwald in order to be distributed there. I also had to separate the winter coats of the Russian PW's who had been shot in Buchenwald concentration camp.
Q. Now, you state that during your tenure in the tailor shop you received clothes from Auschwitz.
A. Yes. With some of my comrades, I had altogether 300,000 shirts which I had to select. That is, I had to throw away those which were not to be used anymore, and those which could be used I had to send to the inmate magazine.
Q. How do you know that these clothes came from Auschwitz?
A. Every transport of that kind, transport of clothing and underclothing from Auschwitz, went via the SS administration at Buchenwald and was reported to the magazine. We always knew in advance when such a new transport of clothing arrived.
Furthermore, these transports were accompanied by SS men from Auschwitz.
Third, many pieces of this laundry was stained with blood, or there were signs of shooting, bullet holes from the executions, and from some of our comrades who had been transferred from Auschwitz to buchenwald we knew that this kind of clothing was sent from Auschwitz to Buchenwald and other camps.
Q. Did you find many Jewish stars on these clothes that you received from Auschwitz?
A. I saw all sorts of clothing. The majority were Jews. That could be seen from three reasons. First of all, some of the clothing had the Jewish Star. Second, in the inmate tailor shop there were tailors who knew the tailor marks and collected the tailor marks in the shorts and in the clothing, and these were tailor marks from all the big cities of Europe -- From France, Belguim, Holland, Denmark, Austria, Hungary, and other countries.
Q. Now, witness, were you able to obtain an understanding of the organization and operation of concentration camps by virtue of the positions which you held in Buchenwald?
A. From 1941 I was in close contact with the very small group of political prisoners who were informed of practically every happening in the SS and in the camp itself. Then slowly, and particularly from 1943 on, I got into a position where I myself had quite a survey of the working of the camp. In my position as first medical clerk of Dr. Ding-Schuler, I had in my hands quite a number of secret files.
Dr. Ding-Schuler had at that time three main functions. First of all, from the end of 1941 onwards until 1943 he was department chief in the Medical Office of the Waffen SS at Berlin; that is Department Chief for Special Tasks.
From 1943 until 1945 he was chief of the Department for Typhus and Virus Research at Buchenwald at the Institute of the Waffen-SS in Berlin, and from 1944 until 1945 he was sanitation officer for the socalled Protected area D. Restricted Area D. of the SS, which was under the command of Gruppenfuehrer Hammler. That is an area in the Hartz Mountains.
Furthermore, almost from the very beginning I made very effort to got a knowledge of the system which was behind the concentration camp, from the sociological as well as from the psychological point of view, and to distinguish between reality and more talk, and to gain a real picture of the whole situation.
Q. Have you written a book called "The SS State", which deals with the system of concentration camps in Germany?
A. I have. After I was liberated, when I worked for the Psychological Warfare Division and the Information Control Division, then I wrote a report for headquarters, and this report concerned the concentration camp of Buchenwald. From this report, later on a book came into being concerning the system of German concentration camps, and the title of this book is "Der SS-Staat" -- "The SS State."
Q. What languages has this book been printed in?
A. I wrote the book in German. Toward the end of 1945 it came out in German. It was then translated into English, French, Dutch and Swedish.
Q. Can you give us some idea of the circulation of the book?
A. In German, the first edition had 35,000 copies. The second edition, which is now being printed, consists of 100,000 copies.
Q. Now, you state that you wrote a report on Buchenwald for -What agency did you say?
A. For the Psychological Warfare Division and then Information Control Division, which was its successor. The report at that time went to SHAEF, to Headquarters.
Q. And you had access to captured document?
A. I myself took part immediately after our liberation in collecting all documentary evidence which still existed at Buchenwald. We did that in a so-called Information Office, and we did it systematically. In that manner I also had insight into those files which I had not seen before.
Q. Now, witness, although it is a bit out of chronological order, I would first like to direct a series of questions to you concerning medical experiments carried out in Buchenwald concentration camp. Now, you state that you became first clerk to Dr. Ding-Schuler in April 1943?
A. In April 1943 I was appointed to this position. I was selected and proposed for this position by the inmate self-administration. I started to work in that position on 6 June 1943 and kept it until the end.
Q. And Dr. Ding-Schuler was the head of the typhus and virus institute in Buchenwald?
A. Dr. Ding, who later on assumed the name of Schuler -- therefore, Dr. Ding-Schuler, first of all Was in charge of Block 46 at Buchenwald, which was the research station for human experiments. From 1943 onward there was a special vaccine block, which was the station for the production of typhus vaccines. Both these blocks -- that is Block 50 for vaccine production and Block 46 as surgical station for the medical experiments, were united in the department for typhus and virus research at Buchenwald. From that moment on, Dr. Ding-Schuler was chief of both departments.
Q. You state that the medical experiments were performed in Block 46, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And in 1943 Block 50 was abandoned and was used for the production of typhus vaccine?
A. We entered the block on the 15th of August, 1943. It had been arranged especially for the purposes of production of typhus vaccine, and the production had been changed.
Q. Do you know when construction work was performed on Block 50 and 43?
A. When or by whom did you ask?
Q. Do you remember the fact of the construction?
A. Yes.
Q. And by whom was that construction work carried out?
A. Well, the construction work was done by inmates of the concentration camp Buchenwald while the directives came from Berlin. The material, the building material came from the material deposit in the concentration camp at Buchenwald. However, the orders were made with Berlin. Block 50 was under the supervision, not of the administration of the Buchenwald concentration camp directly, but rather -
Q. But rather what? You say that Block 50 was not under the direction of the camp commander at Buchenwald. Under whose direction was it then?
A. The block was under the sanitation department of the Waffen SS at Berlin. The medical department of the Waffen SS, in order to have the block constructed, that is according to what Dr. DingSchuler told me, this department collaborated with the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office.
Q. In other words, you can say that the construction of Block 50 was carried out under the direction of the WVHA?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what Amtsgruppe within the WVHA was in charge of the construction?
A. We had repeatedly dealings with several departments of the WVHA, and mainly with the departments C, D and W. As for the Department C, we had to deal with them when the block was erected. We had to deal with Department D also when the block was constructed, and when specialized labor was sent to Block 50 and assigned to work there. As for Department W we had to deal with them when there was a matter of getting guinea pigs for the human experiments in Block 50. At that time a representative of Department W came to Buchenwald. That was an untersturmfuehrer, Schlesinger, and I myself conducted the correspondence with a hauptsturmfuehrer, I think it was Hauptsturmfuehrer Ungler.
Q. Was that HauptsturmfuehrerVogler?
A. Yes, Vogler, I think.
MR. McHANEY: Does the Tribunal wish to take its afternoon recess?
THE PRESIDENT: At quarter after three.
Q. Now, will you tell the Tribunal what types of experiments were conducted on concentration camp inmates at Buchenwald?
From the end of 1941 until 1945 quite a number of experiments were conducted at the experimentation station in these human experiments, mainly typhus experiments, but also experiments with yellow fever, with smallpox, with intestinal typhus, with paratyphus A and B, also poison experiments, and experiments with the compounds of phosphor kautschuk, and bombs, incendiary bombs, and eventually in connection with station 46, Block 46, hormone experiments, and furthermore the testing of large preserves of the military medical station in Berlin with the serum of typhus convalescents, and then via Block 50 we had the taking of blood preserves from incapacitated persons in the camp for the SS Hospital at Berlin. The typhus experiments were split up in quite a number of series of experiments according to the type of typhus vaccine which was to be tested, and typhus vaccines were received from the lungs of mice and rabbits and also from the livers of mice, and chemo-therapeuthicals as, for instance, nitro-acridine, polygal, rutenol and blue of methylane, all these were tested.
Q. Now, Dr. Kogon, can you tell us how the actual experimental subjects were selected?
A. The choice of persons for the human experiments was made differently at different times. During the first series of experiments, and also during a part of the second series voluntary inmates were recruited in the camps. It is true that the reason for their recruiting was kept secret. The people were promised better food and they were to be released from work without their knowing that experiments on human beings were involved. Already up to the first experiment in the camp, without anybody being quite informed about the happenings in Block 46, it was known in the camp that something terrible was involved, and for the second experiment there were only very few inmates who volunteered. In the second sector which then started, the experimentation persons were then requested by the camp doctor. They were requested of the camp commanders. The SS camp doctors then selected from the inmates of Buchenwald the inmates which seamed appropriate for them, or such inmates as were especially ill in their favor, from all the categories of inmates, and they were handed over to Block 46.
Towards the end of 1943, the beginning of 1944, the SS camp doctors ordered to take over the selection of the inmates didn't want to carry the responsibility for their selection any longer. From that moment onward Dr. Ding-Schuler approached Dr. Mrugowsky in Berlin, and via his service he approached the Reich Criminal Office at Berlin, and Gruppenfuehrer Nebel, and it sent the inmates from other concentration camps, and penitentiaries to Buchenwald to the experiment station. During this third period the experimentation subjects were almost exclusively criminal inmates. According to a directive which I have read they had to be sentenced to at least ten years of penal servitude, at least have been sentenced to such a term of penal servitude. 730
Q. Doctor, you stated that in the first series of typhus experiments which began in January 1942, is that right?
A. Yes, that is correct. It perhaps had already started in December, 1941.
Q. Now, you stated that in that first series there were some volunteers, and I would like to investigate that for just a moment. Do you know whether these so-called volunteers were informed that they were to be subjected to typhus experiments in which they would be artificially infected with typhus?
A. No, they had not the slightest knowledge of that. They were only told that there was a slight fever which was to be produced.
Q. Can you further testify as to whether these so-called volunteers were told that there was a very good chance that they would die during the course of these experiments?
A. No, certainly not.
Q. In short we can assume that the word "volunteers" is hardly the proper way to describe these persons who were induced to come into the typhus clinical station?
A. If I make somebody think something quite wrong and induce him to commit something and he reports in, then I can only call him a volunteer theoretically, but practically, of course, he is no volunteer.
Q. Now, Dr. Kogon, were some of these experimental subjects nonGerman nationals?
A. Yes, repeatedly.
Q. And were there political prisoners who were experimented upon?
A. During the second period which I have mentioned, that is, as from about spring, 1942, until the end of 1943, there were also quite a number of political prisoners amongst those who were sent to Block 46.