A I must admit I am of that opinion.
Q You said that '43, in 1943 a small improvement occurred. The guards were changed and new people arrived who were less cruel?
A Yes, that is true.
Q Now, where was the source of the mistakes which the old sadistic people committed? Are you of the opinion that these people had been ordered from somewhere to mistreat you, or did something happen which can only be explained by psycho-pathological explanations?
A I am of the opinion that directives in that form were given which had that effect and that the mentality of those people was quite subservient to that sort of thing, namely, to destroy inmates, because they were of the opinion that up to 1942 they were useless eaters who in the interest of successful economy should be eliminated in the interest of the population.
Q Now, have you any idea of the composition of and organization of the WVHA?
AAll I know is that there existed a number of offices, A, B, C and D. I can recall then that Office Group A, for instance, looked after the financial side; Office Group C, I recall, looked after construction; W was the economic enterprises; and D was, I think, assigned the allocation of labor. At the top of this organization there were the German economic enterprises, the so-called DWB.
Q And as far as "B" is concerned--which was in charge of my client Georg Loerner--you have no very clear idea yourself, have you?
A Perhaps I can ask you one point: Do you know the name Georg Loerner at all?
A I know two people who are called Loerner: One was deputy of the former Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, and then there was another Loerner, who, as far as I know, I believe, was an Obersturmfuehrer.
Q Yes, that is correct. Do you know also the WVHA was also administering the Waffen-SS?
A I believe that the revenues of the WVHA were used for purpose of Waffen-SS.
Q I believe that is not a question which we need discuss here. I don't think you are very well informed on this point, but let us stick to the subject that you do not have any idea of what happened in Department B, and you did not come across it.
A I certainly knew it, at the time. But, in the course of the years, I have simply forgotten all about it because I was concerned exclusively with the office W-1.
Q For instance, the statement about food rations: Did you go into details there at any time? Who decided the actual ration -not the day-to-day supplies, but the basic ration? Who calculated them before they were distributed?
A I do not know that. All I was concerned with was what I was given to eat at lunchtime and the evening. I did not bother about where it came from.
Q I can well imagine that.
Now, did you find that in the long way from the big camps to the smaller camps certain things might have changed en route, so to speak?
A I am of the opinion that might have well happened in certain cases, for, after all, the inmates were not, all of them, very noble characters.
Q Perhaps not only the inmates but perhaps, also, the guards and authorities who had to deal with the inmates?
A The SS, for instance, would take its share first--although it should have reached the inmates. The SS guards, as far as they worked in the kitchen, were certain to help themselves to a piece of meat or things like that, and took them home.
Q Do you imagine this thing to have been that the people in the higher offices were technically concerned with deciding the food rations, and do you think that they were responsible for your being underfed, or do you think that the rations were not different from those allocated to other workers?
A My opinion here is that we were not given as much, for instance, as a free worker.
Q And why do you think you are in a position to say so? Did you ever compare the lists and tables?
A I did not compare them, no; but I worked in the details outside the camp on which civilian workers also worked, and their rations were considerably better than the ones given to us in the camp.
Q Once there was an application for your release, you told us, and Kaltenbrunner turned it down. Was it within the competence of the WVHA to release prisoners, or was that totally outside the competence of that office?
A My view is that there the final order had to come from the RSHA, and not from the WVHA. The WVHA could only recommend releases, and pass it on to the RSHA.
Q But in your case the recommendations did not "cut any ice," did it?
A No, it didn't.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. BELZER (Counsel for the defendant Sommer):
Q Witness, you gave us two examples, I think, which were concerned with the improvement of living conditions in concentration camps.
The first one was the decrees which occurred, roughly, in 1943; and the second one in the interests of preserving the capabilities of the workers. Did I understand you correctly?
A It is correct that towards the end of 1943 these things which you describe did actually happen.
Q The interest in preserving the capabilities of workers you mentioned in 1943 before, I believe.
A No, as far as the preserving of inmates as workers was concerned, the period here should be the Spring of 1943.
Q Can you, from your memory, give us more examples when conditions improved in the concentration camps, in the same period starting in the same period, between 1942-1943?
A No, I am unable to give you any more examples.
Q Do you know anything about he fact that in concentration camps an office for the allocation of labor was instituted?
A That fact is known to me, yes.
Q When was that office established?
A I am unable to give you that date.
Q Can you remember the activity or the sphere of tasks of that office?
A No, all I know is that allocation of labor in as much as it was carried out by the inmates--that is to say, in the offices--was done by orders--that is to say, in Sachsenhausen it was done by order from Hauptsturmfuehrer Sorge.
Q Do you know the name Weissruetel?
A That name is not know to me.
Q Then you do not know the book, "Nacht und Nebel" (Night and Fog)?
AAll I know here is that name.
Q Now, if I tell you here that book describes the conditions in Sachsenhausen; and if, for instance, if I tell you now what this man Weissruetel says about his observation concerning the allocation of labor-would you be in a position to comment on that?
A I shall attempt to do so if you tell me from this book.
Q I am now quoting from a book called "Night and Fog" by Weissruetel:
"Allocation of labor was instituted by the instituting officer of that office. A mis-management entered which, up to that time, made life very difficult for thousands of inmates; indeed, many lost their lives by collectively being compelled to work. Up to that time the order existed that everybody, no matter what he might have been in civilian life, had to work as an assistant worker. But now an office saw to it that each man worked on an individual basis. They had a very large card index system, and they could all, all the inmates, could now work in a place to which he was qualified on the basis of his experiences, and there he could do his best. As enterprises became more and more extensive and needed more and more skilled labor, it was no longer possible now for an electrical engineer to work with a shovel."
Will you comment on this passage, from your own experience?
A The statement made by the author here I can subscribe to myself.
Q They are correct, are they?
A However, I am not of the opinion that in each case the electrical engineer did no longer have to work with a shovel all the time, but it is correct to say that, because of the shortage of skilled labor, special skilled workers were used in accordance with their professional training.
Q Did you ever hear anything about the fact that in the course of the war a system of bonuses was introduced in concentration camps in order to pay inmates?
A That system was introduced, yes.
Q Did you, yourself, have any advantages from that system of bonuses?
A I also received bonuses such as were given to every inmate who worked in the stone processing works in what we call )-11 of DEST.
Q Was it desirable for inmates to possess these bonuses?
AAt first it was possible to exchange these bonuses for certain foods, but later on--that is to say, in 1944 and 1945--it was scarecly possible to buy anything at all which was of interest to an inmate's feeding--which was, after all, the most important thing to him.
Q But before then you were able to buy things in the canteen, were you not?
A I believe that I can assume that you could buy things in the canteen only as long as it was possible to draw money. But when the system of bonuses was started, nothing could be had anymore.
Q Now, if I read another passage from this book by Weissruetel on the possibility of these bonuses, then, perhaps, you could also comment on this.
DR. BELZER: Does the Court wish to recess at this point?
THE PRESIDENT: If it doesn't take too long, we will finish with this witness and then recess until two o'clock so he won't have to be brought back again.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q. Weisruetel says in his book: "Towards the end of 1943, the office for labor allocation had now become an office distributing bonuses, and the individual inmates received as much as forty marks a month. There was a certain inducement in this system, although the actual money issued was out of all proportion to the actual work done. But, under the conditions under which we lived, it was desirable for us to buy these bonuses because these bonuses were the only means to obtain cigarettes."
"There was a type of beer which had no alcohol in it, but which tasted nicer than coffee and gave us the illusion of a certain amount of luxury. This system of bonuses also made it possible for us to do without money sent to us from our families."
Can you comment on this passage?
A. In this point I must call the author of this book a very great optimist. It might be that he, himself, was in a position to aquire these advantages because in the canteen something could be bought, in a very limited extent. For instance, potato salad or fish salad; and also if cigarettes were issued at all-- which happened, very, very infrequently -- you could get your cigarettes with your bonuses.
Q. I take it then that you, yourself, took advantage to a very small extent to buy in the canteen?
A. I was not able to do so because I was in the Klinker Camp, and in the canteen of the Klinker Camp hardly anything was available at all. And we could only get something from the big camp if we had our contact men who brought something along.
Q. Were you always in the Klinker Camp.
A. I was there from March 1943 until the end of 1945. That is to say, 10th of April; I was in the Klinker Camp.
Q. So you can not tell us anything very much about the so-called operators in the canteen?
A. Well, I know, for instance, that if you wanted to have potato salad, what you did was, you had to buy tooth paste at the same time---
or something which was of no use to inmates. You had to buy something which was of no interest to the individual inmates at all, which, of course, made the article you wanted to buy very expensive.
Q. Do you know anything about the fact that this sort of operation was forbidden?
A. I know nothing about that. All I know is that the inmates working in the canteen, and the SS officer who supervised the canteenthey decided that if you wanted to buy a quantity of beets, you also had to buy a certain quantity of soles for your shoes.
Q. Is it known to you that during the war the number of roll calls was decreased by one?
A. In that connection I can only describe the conditions in the Klinker Camp, and in the Klinker Camp we had our morning roll call.
Q. Throughout the duration of your concentration camp stay?
A. Yes, throughout my stay in the concentration camp.
Q. Is it also known to you why the camp commandant Loritz was relieved of his duties?
A. I am of the opinion -- as far as one heard things in the camp-that privately he got himself a number of things, among them, for instance, without the knowledge of his superior officers, he obtained an aircraft. He was a very corrupt commandant who was relieved of his duties.
Q. Do you know why he was relieved? Who was behind it?
A. I am unable to say anything.
Q. Do you know anything about the punitive companies having to be dissolved during the war?
A. All I can tell you here is that punitive companies -- the most dangerous punitive company of any concentration camp; that is to say, the Klinker punitive company, was dissolved at the end of 1944, I believe.
Q. Do you know that concentration camps were graded into through different grades, and that was stopped in the war?
A. I am not informed on that point.
Q. A final question. This morning you told us where the watch repair shop was located. Did you ever see the repair shop?
A. I saw it from the outside.
Q. Was there any difference in its outward appearance from the other huts?
A. No, there was no outward difference in its appearance. I said already in this connection that this was about sixty, as far as I can remember.
DR. BELZER: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH (Counsel for the defendant Hans Baier):
Q. Witness, I have only a very few questions to put to you. In your direct examination you stated that the Staff W had been the superior office over W-1. Is that correct?
A. What I said was, as far as I can remember, the Staff W was in a position to give orders to the office W-1.
Q. Very well; what was the character of that right to give orders?
A. It could issue directives or instruction.
Q. Can you tell me in what connection these orders were given?
A. I can not recall that anymore.
Q. On what do you base your assumption?
A. The legal expert, Dr. Schneider, told me once, you had to be very careful as far as staff W was concerned. There, the reports which reached staff W had to be written out very carefully.
Q. What sort of reports were they?
A. I can not give you details there any more.
Q. Perhaps I can put my question more precisely. Were they legal reports, or were they illegal reports?
A. I believe, reports of both types.
Q. Both types, you mean. In that connection, you mentioned the name Baier. How did you hear that name?
A. I saw his signature. I saw the signature of the former Oberfuehrer.
Q. You have never talked to him, have you?
A. I have never talked to Baier.
Q. Did you ever see him in the camp?
A. Not that I can remember to have seen the defendant Baier.
DR. FRITSCH: Thank you very much. No further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the defendant Bobermin):
Q. Witness, I want to put a few questions to you about the right to give orders. Can you answer me this: The staff W was the staff W with the right to give orders -- or did staff W only have a consultant capacity?
A. The chief of all this, of course, was Oswald Pohl, and as I remember it, the staff W was, of course, under Pohl, but in this connection I already mentioned that I can not recall the organization nor details here. All I know is that the staff W existed, and I know who it was that had to decide things in the staff W, and I know that I dictated letters; but I can not recall the contents anymore.
Q. Do I understand you correctly then, witness; you do not wish to exclude the possibility here that the right to give orders was in the hands of the chief of office and the staff W, was in a consultant position?
A. I must admit that this possibility existed.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you very much. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until two o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until 1400 hours.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 21 April 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the courtroom please take their seats. Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: Your Honor, I have two questions on redirect for the witness Engler.
HERBERT ENGLER - Resumed REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Dr. Engler, what kind of work was being done at the Klinker SK works, the punitive detail works, at Sachsenhausen?
A. There were only stone works done there; that is, in other words, transport of stones, the unloading and uploading of stones into ships, into carriages. If I should summarize, it was only the heaviest work which was to be done in the Klinker works.
Q. You had to lift stones onto lorries and onto beats, is that right?
A. Well, we had to take the stones from the stone magazines and put them on the carriages and from there we transported them to the harbor which had been established there in the brick works. These carriages, which contained 400 stones each, had to be transported for a distance of 500 meters, or a little less, perhaps. We had to push them double time or with two inmates and at the harbor we had to unload then and there were other inmates in the boat which then again loaded the stones on the boat.
Q. You have told us that the DEST, the Deutsche Erd- und Steinwerke, industry had nothing to do with the assignment of laborers to work in the Klinker SK works, is that correct?
A. The labor assignment was done - was assigned - by the camp but it is true that the members of the Klinker punitive details were assigned for work at the DEST and to exercise the activity in the manner I just described.
Q. Was this a DEST plant that the punitive detail was working in?
A. Well, that was the brick works, the main brick works, in other words, an enterprise which belonged to DEST.
Q. And the inmates in the punitive detail were carrying out the work of the DEST, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Robbins, was this at Sachsenhausen?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the reference to the harbor? Is there one?
MR. ROBBINS: I believe there was a canal there. I will ask the witness.
Q. Where did the loading on the boats cone in, Doctor?
A. Well, the loading of the boats was done in the harbor. This harbor had been established for this purpose alone and I think had been built by DEST.
Q. Was there a canal built at Sachsenhausen or is that a natural harbor?
A. No, maybe you could put it that way. The Klinker road was in the harbor. It would be more correct to speak of a channel and a canal. There had been a side channel free this main channel and perhaps established a sort of harbor where the stones could be loaded. That is the so-called harbor or channel, This was a branch channel, the name of which I cannot remember right now.
Q. Did the DEST have to pay for the use of the inmates in the punitive detail?
A. The DEST had to pay for the inmates which worked in the punitive detail.
Q What were the hours of work in the Klinker SK?
A I didn't quite understand the question.
Q What was the length of the workday there, the period of time?
A In the Punitive Company, you mean?
Q Yes.
A They would work from 6:00 o'clock in the morning until 6:00 o'clock in the evening. Then we received some bread. After dinner very often, if I may say so, almost all of us had to go out for work again as far as it was possible if the weather permitted it. Also, we had to work outside as far as it was possible from a weather viewpoint. In other words, during the winter we couldn't go out for work again because it was already dark.
Q Then was the workday from twelve to fourteen hours each day?
A Sometimes we worked more than fourteen hours a day.
Q Was that Saturdays and Sundays as well as every other day in the week?
A In the Punitive Company we also had to work on Sundays. Sometimes we had to work the whole Sunday and sometimes only until 1:00 o'clock.
Q Now, can you give us some idea of the rate of deaths in the Klinker SK?
A In the Klinker SK, the Punitive Company, as I have already told the Tribunal this morning, the inmates could not survive as a general rule a period of four weeks. In order to give you the figures of the death rate, I shall have to say that during only one month, of sixty-five men who composed the Linker Punitive Company, nineteen inmates died. They died because they went through the guard chain, preferring suicide to the cruel treatment in the Klinker Punitive Company.
Q Now, you stated before the recess that some of the DEST officials aimed at obtaining the release of a small number of prisoners. Do you know of anyone who was released from the concentration camp at the instigation of the DEST industry?
A I know some inmates, and the reason is because they later on worked at the Klinker works as civilian workers or as labor assigned, labor recruited.
Q From where had they been released?
A I was released on the 21st of April, 1945.
Q I beg your pardon, from where were the inmates that you have just referred to released? From what camp?
A They were released from the main camp Sachsenhausen
Q They were assigned to do what kind of work?
A I know some who later on were in accountancy with us, that is, either as accountants or as clerks. Also, in some cases they were drafted for work as civilian workers.
Q How many such inmates did you know of?
AAt the present time I can remember only some of them, maybe five or six.
Q Did you know a man by the name of Schendorf at Sachsenhausen?
A What was the name of that man?
Q Schendorf, (Spelling) S-c-h-e-n-d-r-f.
A No, this man was a man who was the Sturmbannfuehrer Schendorf was in charge at the brick works.
Q What reputation did Schondorf have in the camp for his treatment of prisoners?
A He had the worst reputation one could think of.
Q What kind of treatment did he administer to the inmates?
A Schondorf aimed at getting the highest possible output from the inmates. According to my estimate the reason was that he wanted to get into the favor of the Amtschef who at that time was Obersturmbannfuehrer Mummenthey, and perhaps also only in order to satisfy Munnenthey.
Q Was Schondorf immediately under Mummenthey?
A Yes.
Q He was responsible to Mummenthey?
A He was responsible to Mummenthey.
Q And, Dr. Engler, you mentioned the legal adviser to the inmates in Sachsenhausen, and you said that you were the legal adviser for a period of three weeks. I ask you again, was there a legal adviser before you were appointed to that position?
A There as no legal adviser for the inmates before I was appointed at Sachsenhausen; at least as far as I know there was none.
Q Was there a legal adviser in Sachsenhausen after you were received of your duties in that position?
A I didn't hear that there was a successor to me in this post because then I was no longer in the custody camp of Sachsenhausen but in the Klinker camp, that is, in the Punitive Company, the Klinker SK Company, and we were entirely excluded from the rest of the camp because the location of the Klinker Punitive Company was completely isolated. That is, there was barbed wire all around it.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS):
Q Are you Jewish?
A No.
Q Were there any Jews in the camp?
A Yes, there were Jews in the camp.
Q Was there any difference in the treatment of the Jews and the other people?
A The Jews in the camp were treated worse than the Aryans.
Q Can you estimate about how many people died as a result of mistreatment and starvation and overwork during the years 1941 and 1942?
A I could not give you that figure, Your Honor. I could only name the figures which we had registered as that; and those figures I have already given this morning, with an average of eight hundred per month.
Q Now, you were speaking this morning of the labor in the Punitive Company; and you testified that the DEST had nothing to do with this labor. Do you know who received the benefit of this labor?
A Well, the Klinker Punitive Company was assigned for work for the DEST; but as far as the orders were concerned, they were under the camp commander. As far as labor assignment was concerned, they were under the DEST, and they were employed by the DEST.
Q How many people were there in this company, this Punitive Company?
A The average number of inmates in the Punitive Company would have been sixty to sixty-five.
Q How often would the personnel of that company change?
A The Klinker SK received replacements almost every day from the large camp, from the main camp. The dead were always replaced by newcomers; and that is why the figure in the average was what I just told you.
Q What was your daily ration of food during 1941 and 1942?
A Well, I could not give you the quantity of calories exactly; but I know that the food was not sufficient to compensate for the work which was demanded from the inmates. I could only tell you what we received at that time.
Q What did you receive?
A Everyday, that is, in the morning, we received half a liter of coffee or soup. At noon we would receive a liter of soup. In the evening, we received half a liter of soup and sometimes even a liter of soup. In addition in the evening we had about 350 grams of bread. This bread which was distributed in the evening had to suffice for the next morning. In other words, whoever ate his bread in the evening in most cases in the morning had only half a liter of coffee. After he had then taken his coffee he had to start work. Therefore, of course, exhaustion of the inmates very quickly appeared; and that was very often after two or three hours of work only.
Q What nations were represented in the camp? In other words, were there French, and Belgians, and Russians?
A I can say that almost every nation was represented in the camp, that is, Germans, Russians, French, also some Italians, Belgians, Dutch, Norwegians, and in fact men who had been brought from the countries which at that time were occupied by Germany and who were sent , to the concentration camp.
Q Were any prisoners of war there?
A In the concentration camp of Sachsenhausen there was a camp for PW's; but this camp was isolated.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, how did you happen to be released?
THE WITNESS: I was released after the camp Sachsenhausen two years ago was evacuated. That is to say, the inmates wore to be transferred into another camp, and as we were told to be transferred to Luebeck, but the inmates did not get to this camp any more, as they were liberated by the Americans on the 2nd May 1945.
Q Then you were liberated because they did not have time to move you out before the American troops arrived?
A I did not quite get that question, Your Honor.
Q The reason you were liberated was because the Germans did not have time to move you further cast before the Americans arrived?
A Yes, that is correct, Your Honor.
Q That was two years ago today, wasn't it?
A Yes, today is the day which is the day of memory to me, if I may say it.
Q Your second anniversary?
A Yes, my second anniversary of gloomy memories if one considers the rest of the time.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further cross examination.
DR.FROESCHMAN: Dr. Froeschman for the defendant Mummenthey. Mr President, I have only one question which results from the re-direct examination.
BY. DR. FROESCHMAN:
Q Witness, the name of Schondorf has been mentioned by you, and you said that Schondorf was under the direct authority of Mummenthey. From your activity in the legal department do you not know that Schondorf had a special position within the Dest - - within the DWB enterprise?
A From my activity I only know that Schondorf was the competent authority for the brick works.
Q Do you not know that the distribution of the office W-1 was made in a manner that the defendant Mummenthey had the Commercial Department, and the administration activity, while Schondorf had the technical direction, and he was directly under Pohl's order?
A I have no knowledge of that. I know from this distribution only the following: That already the brick works were under Sturmbannfuehrer Schondorf, while the quarries were under the Hauptsturmfuehrer Schwarz, and the Chinaware factory and the Diamond Cutting at Hertogenbosch were under Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Eggert. That is is what I remember.
Q Is it possible that from your activity taken there, that your information is not sufficient, that could be possible, couldn't it?
A It is possible, but I must say that I am of the opinion that it is like that even today.
DR. FROESCHMAN: Your Honor, I have no further questions of this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that all? Any further cross examination? The Marshal may take the witness from the courtroom.
(witness excused)
MC MCHANEY: Your Honor, the prosecution request the witness Kogon be summoned to the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness Kogon, please.
EUGEN KOGON, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Raise your right hard and repeat after me the oath: I swear by God the Almighty and Om niscient that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
You may be seated.
THE WITNESS: I swear.
BY MR. MCHANEY:
Q Witness, your name is Eugen Kogon?
A Yes.
Q You were born on February 2,1903, in Munich, Bavaria, Germany?
A Yes.
Q You are an Austrian Citizen?
A Yes, indeed.
Q What is your religion?
A I am a Roman Catholic.
Q Your present address is Ober Ursel,Am. Hang 36?
A Yes.
Q What is your present occupation?
A I am freelance writer, and I am editor of a monthly agriculture Frankfurt publication.
Q What is the name of this monthly publication again?
A The Frankfurt Periodicals, the Frankfurter Hefte.
Q What is the circulation of this publication.
A The publication of today has an edition of 50,000 and about 350,000 to 400,000 of the other readers.
Q How long have you been engaged in the publication of this periodical?
A I have been editor of this paper since the 1 April 1946.
Q What were you doing prior to that time, and, after your liberation?
A Immediately after my liberation I was collaborator of the Psychological Information in Paris, and then of the Information Control Division at JCD, Bad Homburg; from August 1945 I again was a freelance writer.