BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Witness, is it correct to say that in the Spring of 1945 the concentration camp was destroyed by an air raid?
A The so-called Klinger Camp, where stones were processed, the big brick works which were called 0-1, were as far as I recall, destroyed by an air raid 11 April 1945.
Q The DEST works, were they located outside the camp?
A The DEST works were located immediately outside the entrance gate of the concentration camp. You could reach it which in a few minutes. As far as the inmates were concerned, who worked in it and who were billeted in the Klinker Camp, as far as the working inmates were concerned who came from the big camp, the main camp of Sachsenhausen and were used to work in Orienburg, I think the distance is here roughly two kilometers.
Q Witness, it is correct that the furnaces which we mentioned before were equipped in such a way that the stones and bricks were completed and processed in a mechanical way; that they came out of the furnaces and they were then; again by a mechanical method, loaded on trucks so that the work of the inmates, on the whole, was merely concerned with gripping these stones?
A The work of the inmates consisted in the manner which you described just now, but I would like to add to this that the bricks and stones came from the halls on little trucks to the square outside and that work was actually very heavy. I described it during my direct examination, and I said that it was very heavy work.
Q Witness, while you worked in the legal department, did you ever see a document in which the management of the DEST took the attitude that prisoners must be worked to death?
A As far as that sort of document is concerned, I can not recall one.
Q Now, a different question, witness: This morning you referred repeatedly to the guards in the concentrations camps. Was it possible for you, while you were in the camp, to find out from what classes of the population these guards came up to 1943? What type of people were they?
A I think that these guards came from a class of people who used to belong to the black SS, or the Active SS, as I should like to call it. As far as their characters were concerned, they were anything but nice. I have already said this morning that to a very large extent I looked upon them as criminals. I came to that conclusion, because they preferred the professional criminals. They were rather kind to them, if, indeed, you can call our guards kind, of course, where as toward the political prisoners, and particularly in so far as they came from circles of what I call the intellectuals, toward these people they took the attitude that such people were superfluous, that they had no right to live.
Q You just spoke of the Black SS. What do you mean by the Black SS?
A The so-called black SS that is to say, the people who wore black uniforms.
Q Do you know the difference between the general SS and the Waffen SS?
A No, at this point I can not give you that difference very precisely. I know that the guards were members of the Deathhead company, as far as I can recall today.
Q Do you know that in the course of the years 1933 to 1939 the better elements were taken from the SS guards and were given military training and were transferred later on to the Waffen-SS?
A I was told that at the time.
Q Do you know that as substitutes for the better elements who had left the SS, men were brought in and used as guards who were connected with the Police?
A I have no possibility of judging that. All I can say is -- and I have said so before-- that so far as I was concerned, the members of our guards at that time were criminals.
Q In others words, you personally did not bother about the point of from what circles these SS men who you call criminals came?
A No, I reached my conclusion from my contacts with professional criminals that from a social and criminal point of view were the same type of men as the professional criminals in the concentration camps. Otherwise they would have been no explanation for human beings to be beaten to death and killed by stones and sticks.
Q That is the very reason why I wanted you to tell me in order also to show the court that a certain difference should be made between the members of the Waffen SS on the one hand and these guards on the other, who as you seem to think, are made up of criminals Was it not the tendency of DEST to preserve and keep the workers whom they trained so carefully?
A They wanted to keep them certainly. Whether they wanted to keep them alive beyond the year-
Q Do you know, witness, that DEST applied for releases of these workers and wishes to make them civilians workers?
A I know that such tendencies on the part of the DEST released a very small part of the inmates, in order that they could be used as workers for the WVHA. In this connection, in order to be objective as just, I can say that so far as I was concerned, in November 1944 the defendant Mummnethey applied for my release to the RSHA. However, the application came back with a note from Kaltenbrunner that the release of the defendant Engler must never be contemplated.
Q So, if I can sum up what you have said just now, are you agreed with me that the management-- that is to say, Mummenthey -- to a very large degree had social understanding for the position in which inmates found themselves?
A I have said previously that I do not know what the causes for applications for release were. All I know is that workers who were valuable for DEST were supposed to be kept on in order that they could be used more extensively. In my case, for instance, I was to be released in order to be able to work as an attorney or in the legal department DEST before the Berlin courts.
Q What was the general opinion of Mummenthey's work?
A Mummenthey was not very well known and therefore, it was not possible to from a judgment in the sense that you mean. As far as the group of mass murderers were concerned, he was not included among them.
DR. FROESCHMANN: I have no further questions.
BY DR. HOFFMANN(For Defendant Scheide)
Q Witness, did you ever leave Sachsenhausen between '41 and '45?
A I did not leave the camp in that period.
Q Witness, were you in a position to write letters from the camp, were you able to describe conditions?
A That was quite impossible.
Q When visitors came to the camp could you go to them and describe what you had gone through?
A That again was quite impossible. It was only possible if you wished to commit suicide.
Q Do you believe, witness, that secrecy was completely maintained as far as the camp was concerned?
A I assume that, for instance, people who lived at Oranienburg certainly knew what was going on at Sachsenhausen, but that was only a limited class of people. I am unable to judge whether other circles, that is to say the German people, for instance, knew anything about conditions in concentration camps, if they didn't listen to illegal broadcasts or were informed by members, former members of the concentration camps who would tell them at the risk of their lives. If somebody was released he was told not to divulge anything. Every inmate who was released had to sign a form and he obligated himself not to say one word of what he had seen and experienced in the camp, that is, to say nothing to third parties about anything.
Q Now, do you think that was observed according to the experiences you had in the camp?
AAs the whole of the German people did not dare, or at least the majority of the German people did not have the courage to say anything, those would have done it even less who knew that by communicating everything they risked being brought back to the concentration camp, which would be the final step in their lives.
Q Witness, a different question now. We have heard special atrocities from Gusen-Auschwitz. Now, you and another witness who came from Sachsenhausen did not say anything of that type. Do you believe that conditions in the various camps differed from each other?
A I am of the opinion that conditions in camps whenever there were quarries connected with them were worse than camps where that type of work did not exist, but apart from that, a difference should be made between the so-called main camp, such as Sachsenhausen, and the so-called side camp, minor camps.
Q Was it also connected with the various camp commandants perhaps?
A I am of the opinion that it depended on the attitude of the camp commandant and his mentality. Our own experience at Sachsenhausen was that the treatment of the inmates was a different one as it depended on the mentality and the idiosyncrasies of whoever happened to be in charge of the camp.
Q Now, do you think, witness, that the general over-all directives for concentration camps, a camp commandant was in a position to create better or worse conditions in the camps depending on his character?
A I am of the opinion that a camp commander had the possibility to stop certain conditions which existed in other camps, that is to say, create improvements.
DR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, I have no further questions.
BY DR. HEIM (For Defendant Hohberg)
Q Witness, you say that you had read the name Dr. Hohberg.
Was that during your activity in the legal department of DEST?
A I saw the name Hohberg on some documents or other. I said already that at that time Dr. Hohberg was no longer chief, chief of the Staff W, so therefore in '43, I believe, from my recollection, he was replaced by Oberfuehrer Baier.
Q Do you know in what context you saw that name?
A I am afraid I can not recall any more, because I had very little time to study old files unless I had to use them for certain purposes.
Q Do you perhaps remember what sort of orders Hohberg gave to DEST or are you perhaps confusing him, his name, with directives issued by somebody else?
A I said already that I am no longer able to make precise statements on this point.
Q Do you know from what point onward the Staff W was in a position to give orders to the office W-1?
A I am unable today to give you that date.
Q Do you know from the time when you studied these files whether, and in how far, the position of Dr. Hohberg was different from Baier's position?
A There again I am unable to make any statement.
Q Do you know the activities of the reviewing department of DEST?
A In that department I only met Untersturmfuehrer Woelter and Unterscharfuehrer Johann Sebastian Fischer.
Q Do you know whether these auditors were under the chief of staff of office W-1, and did they report to these people?
A I am of that opinion, yes.
Q Witness, of what opinion are you, do you think that these auditors reported to Staff W or the office W-1?
A I said before I am of the opinion that these auditors reported both to the office W-1 and also to Staff W.
Q Can you recall with any certainty that Dr. Hohberg was at any time chief of Staff W?
A I told you already that from the files, from my knowledge of the files, I think I found that Dr. Hohberg was chief of Staff W.
Q Do you know also what Hohberg's rank was?
A I can not recall that.
DR. HEIM: Thank you very much. No further questions.
DR. KARL HAENSEL (For Defendant Georg Loerner)
Q Herr Ministerialrat, you are now a labor officer in the Labor Ministry of Hessen, are you not?
A Yes.
Q You are now very busy?
A I an now very, very busy.
Q In other words, your health and your mental faculties are quite in order since you left the camp, aren't they?
A Yes. I would like to tell you, Dr. Haensel, that my physical condition when I was released from the camp was considerably different from what you see today. In this connection I might, for instance, mention that when I left the clinker punitive company I was weighing eighty pounds whereas formerly I weighed one hundred and forty pounds.
Q You are among those men who in the camp had the courage and energy to resist and to complain?
A I belonged to those men, yes.
Q Well, what is your opinion, that conditions would have been improved if there had been more men like yourself?
A I do not think so, that the conditions would have been improved. These conditions, I could not answer for these conditions myself, of course, but I had to make the attempt by bringing certain matters to daylight, and I was unable to improve matters. Nevertheless I must go on with my confirmation here.
Q Would not many things have been changed if a lively and strong resistance had come from the camp?
A I do not share your view because a lively and strong resistance would have led to the death of those who took part in it.
Q You said before that the transfer to the clinker punitive company used to lead to death within four weeks. Did the people count on that fact?
A Once they were taken into the punitive company amounted at that time to a death sentence.
Q Now, what is your explanation that if you faced death you do not offer resistance?
A Because the position is that men used to become quite apathetic and just take anything and offer no resistance. They have only one interest, to remain alive, and the will to remain alive is stronger than anything else.
Q Is that a condition for a man who has the frightful fate of being in the camp? Is it possible that a man who has not been in the camp does not understand that mentality. Is the condition, this apathetic and desperate condition of man, is that a condition which you can only understand if it was your fate to have been sent to such a camp?
A I must admit I am of that opinion.
Q You said that '43, in 1943 a small improvement occurred. The guards were changed and new people arrived who were less cruel?
A Yes, that is true.
Q Now, where was the source of the mistakes which the old sadistic people committed? Are you of the opinion that these people had been ordered from somewhere to mistreat you, or did something happen which can only be explained by psycho-pathological explanations?
A I am of the opinion that directives in that form were given which had that effect and that the mentality of those people was quite subservient to that sort of thing, namely, to destroy inmates, because they were of the opinion that up to 1942 they were useless eaters who in the interest of successful economy should be eliminated in the interest of the population.
Q Now, have you any idea of the composition of and organization of the WVHA?
AAll I know is that there existed a number of offices, A, B, C and D. I can recall then that Office Group A, for instance, looked after the financial side; Office Group C, I recall, looked after construction; W was the economic enterprises; and D was, I think, assigned the allocation of labor. At the top of this organization there were the German economic enterprises, the so-called DWB.
Q And as far as "B" is concerned--which was in charge of my client Georg Loerner--you have no very clear idea yourself, have you?
A Perhaps I can ask you one point: Do you know the name Georg Loerner at all?
A I know two people who are called Loerner: One was deputy of the former Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, and then there was another Loerner, who, as far as I know, I believe, was an Obersturmfuehrer.
Q Yes, that is correct. Do you know also the WVHA was also administering the Waffen-SS?
A I believe that the revenues of the WVHA were used for purpose of Waffen-SS.
Q I believe that is not a question which we need discuss here. I don't think you are very well informed on this point, but let us stick to the subject that you do not have any idea of what happened in Department B, and you did not come across it.
A I certainly knew it, at the time. But, in the course of the years, I have simply forgotten all about it because I was concerned exclusively with the office W-1.
Q For instance, the statement about food rations: Did you go into details there at any time? Who decided the actual ration -not the day-to-day supplies, but the basic ration? Who calculated them before they were distributed?
A I do not know that. All I was concerned with was what I was given to eat at lunchtime and the evening. I did not bother about where it came from.
Q I can well imagine that.
Now, did you find that in the long way from the big camps to the smaller camps certain things might have changed en route, so to speak?
A I am of the opinion that might have well happened in certain cases, for, after all, the inmates were not, all of them, very noble characters.
Q Perhaps not only the inmates but perhaps, also, the guards and authorities who had to deal with the inmates?
A The SS, for instance, would take its share first--although it should have reached the inmates. The SS guards, as far as they worked in the kitchen, were certain to help themselves to a piece of meat or things like that, and took them home.
Q Do you imagine this thing to have been that the people in the higher offices were technically concerned with deciding the food rations, and do you think that they were responsible for your being underfed, or do you think that the rations were not different from those allocated to other workers?
A My opinion here is that we were not given as much, for instance, as a free worker.
Q And why do you think you are in a position to say so? Did you ever compare the lists and tables?
A I did not compare them, no; but I worked in the details outside the camp on which civilian workers also worked, and their rations were considerably better than the ones given to us in the camp.
Q Once there was an application for your release, you told us, and Kaltenbrunner turned it down. Was it within the competence of the WVHA to release prisoners, or was that totally outside the competence of that office?
A My view is that there the final order had to come from the RSHA, and not from the WVHA. The WVHA could only recommend releases, and pass it on to the RSHA.
Q But in your case the recommendations did not "cut any ice," did it?
A No, it didn't.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. BELZER (Counsel for the defendant Sommer):
Q Witness, you gave us two examples, I think, which were concerned with the improvement of living conditions in concentration camps.
The first one was the decrees which occurred, roughly, in 1943; and the second one in the interests of preserving the capabilities of the workers. Did I understand you correctly?
A It is correct that towards the end of 1943 these things which you describe did actually happen.
Q The interest in preserving the capabilities of workers you mentioned in 1943 before, I believe.
A No, as far as the preserving of inmates as workers was concerned, the period here should be the Spring of 1943.
Q Can you, from your memory, give us more examples when conditions improved in the concentration camps, in the same period starting in the same period, between 1942-1943?
A No, I am unable to give you any more examples.
Q Do you know anything about he fact that in concentration camps an office for the allocation of labor was instituted?
A That fact is known to me, yes.
Q When was that office established?
A I am unable to give you that date.
Q Can you remember the activity or the sphere of tasks of that office?
A No, all I know is that allocation of labor in as much as it was carried out by the inmates--that is to say, in the offices--was done by orders--that is to say, in Sachsenhausen it was done by order from Hauptsturmfuehrer Sorge.
Q Do you know the name Weissruetel?
A That name is not know to me.
Q Then you do not know the book, "Nacht und Nebel" (Night and Fog)?
AAll I know here is that name.
Q Now, if I tell you here that book describes the conditions in Sachsenhausen; and if, for instance, if I tell you now what this man Weissruetel says about his observation concerning the allocation of labor-would you be in a position to comment on that?
A I shall attempt to do so if you tell me from this book.
Q I am now quoting from a book called "Night and Fog" by Weissruetel:
"Allocation of labor was instituted by the instituting officer of that office. A mis-management entered which, up to that time, made life very difficult for thousands of inmates; indeed, many lost their lives by collectively being compelled to work. Up to that time the order existed that everybody, no matter what he might have been in civilian life, had to work as an assistant worker. But now an office saw to it that each man worked on an individual basis. They had a very large card index system, and they could all, all the inmates, could now work in a place to which he was qualified on the basis of his experiences, and there he could do his best. As enterprises became more and more extensive and needed more and more skilled labor, it was no longer possible now for an electrical engineer to work with a shovel."
Will you comment on this passage, from your own experience?
A The statement made by the author here I can subscribe to myself.
Q They are correct, are they?
A However, I am not of the opinion that in each case the electrical engineer did no longer have to work with a shovel all the time, but it is correct to say that, because of the shortage of skilled labor, special skilled workers were used in accordance with their professional training.
Q Did you ever hear anything about the fact that in the course of the war a system of bonuses was introduced in concentration camps in order to pay inmates?
A That system was introduced, yes.
Q Did you, yourself, have any advantages from that system of bonuses?
A I also received bonuses such as were given to every inmate who worked in the stone processing works in what we call )-11 of DEST.
Q Was it desirable for inmates to possess these bonuses?
AAt first it was possible to exchange these bonuses for certain foods, but later on--that is to say, in 1944 and 1945--it was scarecly possible to buy anything at all which was of interest to an inmate's feeding--which was, after all, the most important thing to him.
Q But before then you were able to buy things in the canteen, were you not?
A I believe that I can assume that you could buy things in the canteen only as long as it was possible to draw money. But when the system of bonuses was started, nothing could be had anymore.
Q Now, if I read another passage from this book by Weissruetel on the possibility of these bonuses, then, perhaps, you could also comment on this.
DR. BELZER: Does the Court wish to recess at this point?
THE PRESIDENT: If it doesn't take too long, we will finish with this witness and then recess until two o'clock so he won't have to be brought back again.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q. Weisruetel says in his book: "Towards the end of 1943, the office for labor allocation had now become an office distributing bonuses, and the individual inmates received as much as forty marks a month. There was a certain inducement in this system, although the actual money issued was out of all proportion to the actual work done. But, under the conditions under which we lived, it was desirable for us to buy these bonuses because these bonuses were the only means to obtain cigarettes."
"There was a type of beer which had no alcohol in it, but which tasted nicer than coffee and gave us the illusion of a certain amount of luxury. This system of bonuses also made it possible for us to do without money sent to us from our families."
Can you comment on this passage?
A. In this point I must call the author of this book a very great optimist. It might be that he, himself, was in a position to aquire these advantages because in the canteen something could be bought, in a very limited extent. For instance, potato salad or fish salad; and also if cigarettes were issued at all-- which happened, very, very infrequently -- you could get your cigarettes with your bonuses.
Q. I take it then that you, yourself, took advantage to a very small extent to buy in the canteen?
A. I was not able to do so because I was in the Klinker Camp, and in the canteen of the Klinker Camp hardly anything was available at all. And we could only get something from the big camp if we had our contact men who brought something along.
Q. Were you always in the Klinker Camp.
A. I was there from March 1943 until the end of 1945. That is to say, 10th of April; I was in the Klinker Camp.
Q. So you can not tell us anything very much about the so-called operators in the canteen?
A. Well, I know, for instance, that if you wanted to have potato salad, what you did was, you had to buy tooth paste at the same time---
or something which was of no use to inmates. You had to buy something which was of no interest to the individual inmates at all, which, of course, made the article you wanted to buy very expensive.
Q. Do you know anything about the fact that this sort of operation was forbidden?
A. I know nothing about that. All I know is that the inmates working in the canteen, and the SS officer who supervised the canteenthey decided that if you wanted to buy a quantity of beets, you also had to buy a certain quantity of soles for your shoes.
Q. Is it known to you that during the war the number of roll calls was decreased by one?
A. In that connection I can only describe the conditions in the Klinker Camp, and in the Klinker Camp we had our morning roll call.
Q. Throughout the duration of your concentration camp stay?
A. Yes, throughout my stay in the concentration camp.
Q. Is it also known to you why the camp commandant Loritz was relieved of his duties?
A. I am of the opinion -- as far as one heard things in the camp-that privately he got himself a number of things, among them, for instance, without the knowledge of his superior officers, he obtained an aircraft. He was a very corrupt commandant who was relieved of his duties.
Q. Do you know why he was relieved? Who was behind it?
A. I am unable to say anything.
Q. Do you know anything about the punitive companies having to be dissolved during the war?
A. All I can tell you here is that punitive companies -- the most dangerous punitive company of any concentration camp; that is to say, the Klinker punitive company, was dissolved at the end of 1944, I believe.
Q. Do you know that concentration camps were graded into through different grades, and that was stopped in the war?
A. I am not informed on that point.
Q. A final question. This morning you told us where the watch repair shop was located. Did you ever see the repair shop?
A. I saw it from the outside.
Q. Was there any difference in its outward appearance from the other huts?
A. No, there was no outward difference in its appearance. I said already in this connection that this was about sixty, as far as I can remember.
DR. BELZER: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH (Counsel for the defendant Hans Baier):
Q. Witness, I have only a very few questions to put to you. In your direct examination you stated that the Staff W had been the superior office over W-1. Is that correct?
A. What I said was, as far as I can remember, the Staff W was in a position to give orders to the office W-1.
Q. Very well; what was the character of that right to give orders?
A. It could issue directives or instruction.
Q. Can you tell me in what connection these orders were given?
A. I can not recall that anymore.
Q. On what do you base your assumption?
A. The legal expert, Dr. Schneider, told me once, you had to be very careful as far as staff W was concerned. There, the reports which reached staff W had to be written out very carefully.
Q. What sort of reports were they?
A. I can not give you details there any more.
Q. Perhaps I can put my question more precisely. Were they legal reports, or were they illegal reports?
A. I believe, reports of both types.
Q. Both types, you mean. In that connection, you mentioned the name Baier. How did you hear that name?
A. I saw his signature. I saw the signature of the former Oberfuehrer.
Q. You have never talked to him, have you?
A. I have never talked to Baier.
Q. Did you ever see him in the camp?
A. Not that I can remember to have seen the defendant Baier.
DR. FRITSCH: Thank you very much. No further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the defendant Bobermin):
Q. Witness, I want to put a few questions to you about the right to give orders. Can you answer me this: The staff W was the staff W with the right to give orders -- or did staff W only have a consultant capacity?
A. The chief of all this, of course, was Oswald Pohl, and as I remember it, the staff W was, of course, under Pohl, but in this connection I already mentioned that I can not recall the organization nor details here. All I know is that the staff W existed, and I know who it was that had to decide things in the staff W, and I know that I dictated letters; but I can not recall the contents anymore.
Q. Do I understand you correctly then, witness; you do not wish to exclude the possibility here that the right to give orders was in the hands of the chief of office and the staff W, was in a consultant position?
A. I must admit that this possibility existed.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you very much. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until two o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until 1400 hours.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)