DR. SEIDL: Yes.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, you testified that visits took place repeatedly in the concentration camp of Auschwitz and that they also visited the gas chambers.
That did not only apply to the gas chambers, but when the visitors came they visited the whole camp. Sometimes they visited that and sometimes this. I saw them everywhere: I saw them in the kitchens, in the billets, in the house where they kept the dead, the Kommando factory, etc.
Q. I shall ask you another question.
THE PRESIDENT: That makes two now.
DR. SEIDL: However, Your Honor, this was just the question prior to the question. The question will come now, Your Honor.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. I shall put another statement before you that the witness Rudolph Hoess made before the International Military Tribunal.
I am quoting:
"Q. During that conversation did Himmler tell you that that action should be treated as a secret Reich-matter?"
"A. Yes, he particularly stressed that point. He said that I was not even to tell my director supervisor or my immediate supervisor, namely, Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks; that the association was only between us two, and had to be kept a secret."
"Q. What was Gluecks position, whom I just mentioned?"
"A. Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks was the inspector of the concentration camps at the time and he was directly under the supervision of the Reichsfuehrer."
"Q. Does Secret Reich--matter mean that none could possibly speak about it without endangering his life?
MR. ROBBINS: Your Honor, I feel that this is not the proper re-cross of this witness. I think that this lays no possible foundation for a question that the Defense Counsel could put to him.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is difficult to tell until we hear what the question is going to be. Go ahead, Dr. Seidl.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q The witness Hoess answered to the question in the following manner--- and I am quoting:
"A Secret Reich--matter means for everybody who violates that rule, that he is not to speak to anybody about such things that happen and that he, himself, was responsible that nothing should respire about these things with reference to third persons."
And I ask you now, witness, do you still wish to stick to your statement?
A Yes, I still stick to that because I saw it with my own eyes, and I saw everything I mentioned here with my own eyes, and that I know that I made special effort in order to see the Himmler city, called Auschwitz.
Q And you are of the opinion apparently that the defendant Hoess also said a lie in this particular point?
A Well, perhaps he thought so, but if he could do that, that no one of us or no one of the SS-men could possibly know about that; I don't believe. Because I saw it myself how these people arrived in order to make visits, and how very many people were there.
DR. SEIDL: No further questions.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, I have just one more question.
MR. MC HANEY: This long speech by Hoess or Hurt in no way contradicts what this witness has testified to, and I would like to show that. Hoess testified that he had a conversation with Himmler, and Himmler said it was a top-secret matter, and he was not to say anything to Gluecks. This man has not said any word about a conversation.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is over anyway.
Are there any questions by other Counsel; any other crossexaminations? All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for defendant Bobermin):
Q Witness, you told me in the direct examination that you were carrying out a sort of activity before your arrest, namely, that you had a very good memory for names. I ask you now, witness: What kind of activity was it you mentioned?
A Whoever worked in an underground edition had to be able to know that quite a discretion was to be used, and he knew no other names but the psuedonyms in order to protect these individuals. And he, also, had to remember various names of cities or villages. He had to be able to learn them and keep them in mind. For instance we had certain documents which we wanted to make use of, and we had to learn them by heart in order to train our minds, and to be able to remember various things better in our mind than on paper because paper was dangerous. If the paper would have fallen in someone's hand, it could have been used in evidence against us. However, what we had in our brain could not be taken away from us.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until two o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1400 this afternoon.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION -------------( The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 14 April 1947.)
Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: Your Honor, I feel that it is our duty to the Tribunal to clear up one print in connection with the testimony of the witness Bielsky. I talked to Bielski during the noon recess with the assistance of Dr. Alexander and I also talked to the court interpreter and I feel myself that Herr Bielski has honestly misunderstood the question put to him by the defense counsel and by myself with reference to the pictures that had been shown him at earlier date and to clear up that I ask the indulgence of the Tribunal to recall Herr Bielsky for a few moments.
THE. PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. BELZER ( Attorneys for the defendant Sommer): May it please the court, before the recess, by request of the prosecution, it was put on record that the Defendant Sommer called the witness a " Schwein" when he was identified. On behalf of Defendant Sommer, I hereby state that the Defendant Sommer is deeply sorry to have committed that lapse. He was excited because of the witness' testimony and the Defendant-Witness regards himself to be innocent and it will be a matter for evidence to show proof the contrary. In any case, the defendant Sommer apologizes for this expression of his excitement.
THE PRESIDENT: Such vulgarity exhibited toward a witness who is here because he has been brought here is inexcusable and the apology of the defendant makes no difference. The Tribunal does not accept the apology nor overlook the incident.
JERZY BIELSKI - recalled by the Prosecution DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS Q Herr Bielski, do you recall on Friday last week when you came into Mr. McHeney's office?
A Yes, I do.
Q Do you recall stating that you had seen Pohl in Auschwitz and you could identify Pohl?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Then were a number of pictures without names on them shown to you?
A Yes.
Q And were you ask to pick out the picture of Oswald Pohl?
A Yes, I was Q Did you pick out a picture?
A Yes.
Q Was that the picture of Pohl?
A Yes.
Q From that group of pictures were you asked to pick out the picture of Bobermin?
A Yes.
Q And what did you say?
A I can not recognize him.
Q Then this morning in my office did you tell me that on Friday you had recognized Sommer and Pohl - -, no, I beg your pardon, Sommer and Eirenschmalz?
A Yes, that is true.
Q Were you then shown a number of pictures and asked to identify Sommer and Eirenschmalz?
A Yes.
Q Did you do that?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Bielski, will you tell us what you understood from my question this morning about the pictures and from the questions of the defense counsel about the pictures?
A I understood that the defense counsel to say whether the prosecution had shown me the pictures, and told me whom they represented; Pohl and the other two were pointed out to me by the Prosecution, it was said this morning.
Q In fact, was that ever done - were the pictures shown to you and that you were told that this was Pohl, and soforth?
A No.
MR. ROBBINS: That is all the questions we have.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. BELZER: Dr. Belzer for the defendant Sommer.
Q Witness, is it not true that I asked you if any of the prosecution showed you pictures of the defendants?
A Submitted and shown to me, you mean? That is what I understood.
Q Is it not true that I myself did not mention any name; that I put a very general question whether any member of the prosecution showed you pictures of the defendants?
A Yes. By showing, I understand, for instance, somebody gives a document and says this is a document, let me show something, if somebody gives me pictures, and asked me , what is this, that is a picture. In this case the pictures were submitted to me but not shown, and that is the difference I am making.
Q Can you recall when I examined you the first time, I asked you if the photographs of the defendants were shown to you?
A "Shown to you" you mean, yes; yes, I recall that.
Q Can you also recall that both in my first and my second examinations I asked you whether since your examination on Friday you had talked to a member of the Prosecution?
A Since Friday, since Friday, I said, yes, since the outside that I returned to Nurnberg last night.
Q Can you recall that you said, no, I left Nurnberg?
A Yes, I left Nurnberg.
Q And now you admit that this morning before the session you talked to a member of the Prosecution?
A This morning?
Q Yes, before the session, before the beginning of the session this morning?
A If you asked me whether the picture are shown to me?
Q Please answer the question. I asked you whether since Friday, since your examination on Friday, you had talked to a member of the Prosecution team.
Do you recall your answer, which was, no, I left Nurnberg?
A Yes.
Q And now do you admit that this statement of yours was incorrect?
A Yes, this morning before the session I talked to a member of the Prosecution team.
DR. BELZER: That is all, Your Honor.
MR. ROBBINS: I ask that the witness be dismissed. You will be excused.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is excused.
(Witness excused)
MR. ROBBINS: I ask that Josef Krysiak be called as a witness for the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: Marshal, will you please bring the other witness into court.
JOSEF KRYSIAK, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You will please raise your right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, can you hear me?
A Yes.
Q Witness, your name is Josef Krysiak, K-R-Y-S-I-A-K?
A Yes.
Q You are a German citizen?
A Yes.
Q And when and where were you born?
A 8 May 1911 in Dortmund, Westphalia.
Q Where in Dortmund?
A Dortmund, that is in Westphalia.
Q Then you are now approximately thirty-seven years old?
A Thirty-six.
Q What is your present occupation?
A I am Trustee in Fulda.
Q Where is that?
A In Fulda.
Q Will you state where you took your primary studies?
A I studied first at Zurich, and with my examination I took studies for technical qualifications at Charlottenburg - Berlin.
Q You graduated from the Technical University at Berlin?
A Yes, in Charlottenburg.
Q That was in 1936?
A Yes, in 1936.
Q You are a graduate engineer, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Did you do anything in aircraft construction?
A Yes.
Q After your graduation in 1936 from the University of Berlin, where did you go first?
A I worked for one year in Amsterdam.
Q And then?
AAnd then to the Messerschmitt in Augsburg in 1938 and then I gave lectures in Bonn -- I attended lectures in Bonn.
Q Until what date?
A That was the middle of 1939.
Q Then what happened?
A Then I was drafted back to the Messerschmitt firm.
Q In Augsburg?
A Yes, that was in Augsburg.
Q You remained there until when?
A Up until 9 December 1940. Until I was arrested.
Q You were arrested by whom?
A By the Gestapo office in Munich.
Q For what?
A It was said to be a statement of undermining the fighting morale of the Germans.
Q Now how was it that you accomplished this?
A I made objections to material questions,and after the conference of 1940 in Berlin I said, "The moment the USA enters the war, we will have lost the war."
Q Were you interrogated by the Gestapo?
A Yes, in Munich.
Q Were you interrogated a very long period of time?
A Yes, for three days I was interrogated.
Q You were interrogated from 9 December 1940 to the 12th December 1940, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct, and then I was sent in a transport to Mauthausen.
Q You were sentenced to Mauthausen, were you?
A Yes.
Q And for how long a period of time were you sentenced?
A On my paper it said, on my little piece of paper, they gave me six months for political retraining.
Q And then how long did you stay at Mauthausen?
A Up until the duration of the 5 May 1945.
Q Then you were sentenced to Mauthausen on 12 December 1940 for six months and you stayed there until May 1945?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q. Herr Krysiak, are you Jewish?
A. No.
Q. What is your religion?
A. I am a Catholic.
Q. Would you repeat that please? I wonder if you have the correct translation.
A. I was brought up a Catholic and later on I turned to the Christian Science Movement.
Q. Are you a pacifist?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You state that you were in Mauthausen for about four and a half years. Will you give the Court an explanation of the physical setup of Mauthausen in relation to the out-camps surrounding Mauthausen?
A. Yes. I arrived on 12 December 1942 on Mauthausen. Three days later I was sent to the outside camp in Gusen. The first two years in Gusen I, worked in the quarry.
Q. Excuse me just a moment. How many out-camps were there around Mauthausen?
A. Mauthausen had roughly 25 outside camps.
Q. Mauthausen was the central camp; is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Can you give us the names of some of the out camps?
A. Yes, some of them. Gusen I and II.
Q. Gusen I and II?
A. Gusen I and II. Weiner Neudorf, Weiner Neustadt, Linz, I,II, and III; Ebensee, Passau I and II, and then there were a number of smaller camps, the names of which I do not recall.
Q. Were you assigned to one of these work camps in the neighborhood of Mauthausen?
A. Yes, I belonged to Gusen I camp. Later on, from April 1944 onwards, I was transferred to Gusen II.
Q. What was the quarry Kastenhofen? Was that a part of Gusen I?
A. Yes, the quarry Kastenhofen was part of Gusen I.
Q. Did you work there?
A. Yes, I worked in Kastenhofen and in Gusen.
Q. How long did you remain in Gusen I?
A. I remained in Gusen I from 1940 up to April 1944.
Q. You mentioned a quarry by the name of Wienergraben. What was that? Was that under Gusen I also?
A. Wienergraben was part of Mauthausen.
Q. And do you know under whom -- or, do you know who had the control over the quarries that you have named, namely, Gusen, Kastengofen and Wienergraben, what concern?
A. The quarries were under the D E S T. The German Earth and Stone works, Ltd., Berlin.
Q. Do you know who the local director of the D E S T was?
A. The local director for Gusen I and Mauthausen was Otto Walter, and he lived near Gusen.
Q. About how many inmates were in Gusen I?
A. There were about 10,000 inmates.
Q. About how many worked in Kastenhofen?
A. About 8,000 of them worked in Kastenhofen and Gusen, in both places.
Q. But they were different inmates; is that correct? The same inmates did not work in both places at the same time, the same period of time?
A. No.
Q. Did I understand you correctly that 10,000 persons worked in Gusen I?
A. Yes, 10,000 were in the camp. Eight thousand of them worked in the quarry.
Q. Will you describe how the work was carried out in the stone quarries in Gusen I?
A. The work in the quarry Gusen was incredibly difficult for the simple reason that we had no technical equipment and had to work with our hands.
The only thing that helped us a little in the quarry was the crusher installation. Everything else was done by hand. The transport and loading of the stones was all done by hand.
Under the conditions of work and life prevailing there, it was quite impossible for the inmates there to live very long. The average duration of an inmate's life there was three months.
Q. Will you describe just what kind of work was done? Were the stones cut out of the earth; were they finished there at Gusen I, polished?
A. Yes. The stones were broken from the quarry. Then there and then they were worked on. Originally they were meant for the reconstruction of the Reich capital and for other new buildings which were planned. The whole method of work was manual; even the transport of these very heavy stones was done by the inmates.
Q. You had to carry heavy stones?
A. Yes.
Q. You stated that the life span of the inmates was very short. Will you tell us what caused the deaths of the workers?
A. Undernourishment and exhaustion.
Q. What kind of food were you given in Gusen I?
A. In the morning we were given a half liter of black coffee, at lunchtime a thin, watery soup with beets or spinach with rotten potatoes, and in the evening a certain quantity of bread, which varied, at seven o'clock.
Q. Did you work the year around in this plant, in the quarry?
A. Yes, for two years in the quarry.
Q. Summer and winter?
A. Summer and winter, in the winter under particularly difficult circumstances because we were not given any gloves and had to work outside in the cold.
Q. Did the hands of the inmates often freeze?
A. That was a daily occurrence.
Q. What kind of clothing were you given for work in the quarry?
A. Up to 1942 we were wearing zebra suits. In some cases we were given stockings, in other cases not. It depended on whether they were available. In the winter we were given a thin overcoat, again zebra colored, which was insufficient for work outside. When it was gone we were not given a new one.
Q. The clothing that you were given was not sufficient to protect you from the climate, in other words?
A. No, certainly not.
Q. Will you describe for the Tribunal in some detail the treatment that was given to the inmate workers by the SS guards?
A. When our daily work quota was not done, punitive work was allocated. That punitive work worked the following way: You had to walk through a so-called lane, and you had to carry heavy stones, and every five or ten meters there was an SS man with a stick or a gun. We had to run while we carried these stones. They hit us without mercy. Whether we were heavily burdened or running, that was not important to them.
Q. Did you see guards throw stones at the workers?
A. Yes, I also saw that.
Q. Did that happen very frequently?
A. It is difficult today after all these years to give concrete statements because at that time, one was only too glad if he himself were not the one who became a victim of this treatment. One saw it, true, but one really didn't record it in his memory. In Gusen, one was only too glad if in the evening he could go back to the camp without being beaten.
Q. Did you observe the guards beating workers?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you say that that happened every day?
A. That depended on the detachment leader.
Q. Would you say that beatings by the guards were frequent?
A. Yes. The man who had to do this very heavy work had no power of resistance against this beating.
If he went to the hospital with a wound, his wounds were not bandaged because there were no drugs, or he was not received by the hospital because the hospital was overcrowded.
Q. Did those same workers who were injured by the beatings have to return to work the next day?
A. That also happened, because the detachment had to go to work and whether a worker was ill or not did not matter. If he could not walk, he was helped along by two healthy comrades and dragged along to the place of work.
Q. During the four years that you were in Mauthausen, how many people, inmates, would you estimate were killed there during that time?
A. I estimate that in Gusen I and II together, at least 10,000 inmates were killed. I would like to recall only one case, which occurred in 1944; in the winter of 1944 there was an epidemic of typhoid in the camp, and 800 inmates died in one night, and that went on for two months. As I recall, there were 60 to 80 dead every morning.
Q. What was done with the bodies of the dead?
A. The bodies were taken to the crematorium in Gusen I.
Q. Do you know when the crematorium in Gusen I was constructed?
A. I am not quite certain but I should say roughly about 1941 because up to that time the bodies were taken to Mauthausen or Steyr, but as the camp grew and grew there was a crematorium in Gusen I with three ovens.
Q. Where were the workers of Gusen I billeted? Were they billeted in the Gusen I camp?
A. Yes, the workers, the inmates, were billeted at Gusen I: that is to say, some of them. In some cases two or three of them were in one bed, whereas at Gusen II there was an average of four persons in one bed.
Q. And about how large were these beds?
A. They were normal beds, 90 centimeters broad and one meter, eighty or ninety long.
Q. Were you given blankets?
A. Yes, each bed had two blankets.
Q. And was there a mattress on the bed?
A. Pallets.
Q. Pallets?
A. Yes, straw sacks.
Q. Straw sacks.
A. Yes.
Q. And were these wooden beds, made of wood?
A. Yes, they were wooden beds.
Q. How many people were the barracks constructed to house?
A. Originally they were supposed to house 300 inmates but to each block there was a so-called living room which later on was also used for billets.
Q. About how many inmates were housed in the barracks that were built for 300 people?
A. In Gusen I the normal number was about 600 or 800 inmates to the block, whereas in Gusen II had over one thousand normal complement.
Q. This was in barracks built for 300 inmates?
A. Yes.
Q. Was running water available to the inmates for their use?
A. In Gusen I the sanitary conditions as compared to Gusen II were very good because in Gusen II there was neither running water nor toilets nor bathing pots nor anything else. That is why there were so many cases of illness there.
Q. Were you given any opportunity at all to bathe?
A. In Gusen I regularly once a week, but in Gusen II never at all.
Q. What kind of shoes were issued to you?
A. We were given wooden shoes. As I said before, in some cases we were given stockings and others not, and many inmates had no stockings and no underwear in the winter.
Q. Did the local manager of Dest, Walter, make frequent inspections of the quarry?
A. Yes, the so-called director, Walter, walked through the quarries almost daily.
Q. What was the length of the work day in the quarries?
A. Twelve hours in summer and in winter from sunrise until dusk.
Q. And where did you eat your noon meal?
A. At noon we had an interval of one hour, from twelve to noon.
Q. And you ate your meal at the quarry?
A. Yes, we had to eat our meals in the quarry.
Q. How many days per week did you work?
A. In the quarry we worked six days but as far as armaments were concerned work was done throughout the week, including Sundays.
Q. Seven days a week?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the name of Mummenthey?
A. I only know the name of Mummenthey from files as they were found later.
Q. Did you yourself examine the files?
A. Yes, during the collapse.
Q. You were then working for the CIC, were you?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. Can you state anything about the connection of Mummenthey with the work in the stone Quarries there from your inspection of the official records?
A. I cannot say whether this Mummenthey made the inspections in the Gusen camp. I know his name from the files which were found at Otto Walter's place.
Q. Did you ever see Oswald Pohl on an inspection of the camps at Mauthausen?
A. I saw Oswald Pohl in fact all the time - that is, in Gusen II saw him in the tunnel quite frequently, that is to say, in 1944 and 1945.
Q. Do you think from seeing Oswald Pohl there that you could identify him if you were to see him today?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you please stand up and see if you can identify him in this courtroom?
A. Yes, the first one there.
MR. ROBBINS: May the record show the witness identified the defendant Pohl?
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so indicate.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Were you show a picture by us, by the prosecution, of the defendant Pohl?
A. No.
Q. In the spring of 1943 were you transferred to another kind of work?
A. Yes, I remained in Gusen I and was taken into the armament work I was transferred to a different detachment.
Q. And what kind of work was that?
A. In the Spring of 1943 Steyr and Messerschmitt came to Gusen I. The work done for Steyr was relatively easy. The Messerschmitt commando became a hell to us inmates. In some cases it was more difficult work than the one in the quarry.
Q. For the purpose of building armaments was it necessary to construct certain buildings at Gusen I?
A. Yes. Steyr was taken to the former Steinmetz barracks and for Messerschmitt new barracks were erected, so-called halls.
Q. In Gusen I were these built, and were these constructions underground or above ground?
A. In Gusen I we were above ground. They were sort of hangers.
Q. And in Gusen II?
A. In Gusen II they were tunnels.
Q. What sort of armaments was produced at Gusen I?
A. In Gusen I the Steyr works produced armaments, guns, machine guns and pistols, where Messerschmitt produced aircraft, ME-109.
Q. In other words, how many inmates were working for Steyr?
A. For steyr there worked about 10,000 inmates and the same applies to Messerschmitt. We worked in two shifts.
Q. About how many buildings did Steyr have?
A. Steyr had about ten, twelve, or fifteen hangars.
Q. And Messerschmitt?
A. Messerschmitt had four hangars and another building which used to be the workshop before in Gusen I.
Q. What was the length of the work day in Steyr?
A. Twelve hours, two shifts.
Q. And how many days a week?
A. Seven days, all holidays and all Sundays included.
Q. Was the same period of work carried out for Messerschmitt as well?
A. Yes, all armament, in Gusen I and later on in Gusen II, worked the two shifts, day shifts and night shifts, all holidays, all Sundays.