A Yes, they had shot at somebody. Yes.
Q You said that happened every day?
A Yes.
Q Were there deaths every day?
A Yes, there were deaths, and wounded, every day; and people who were unconscious and people who were dying.
Q How did you bring these people back?
A We partly took them on our carts, and sometimes on our backs.
Q And where were they sent, brought to?
A To the camp: after our detail work we came back to the camp -with the dead ones, that is.
Q Was there some sort of a connective track between the sand pit and the Reichsbahn?
A That sand pit, there was no such thing. However, on other sand pits we did have that.
Q On that particular one you did not have a track.
A No, the sand was picked up by trucks.
Q And if there was such a thing as a gravel pit you do not know.
A The gravel pit I do not know.
Q All right. How did you possibly find out that the calory ration amounted to six hundred.
AAbout a year before I read that all they had was six hundred calories.
Q In other words, you did not know from that time what calories you received.
AAll I know, we were hungry all the time.
Q Other people were also hungry. That does not prove the amount of calories.
AAll I can tell you is what we received in food and you can find that out for yourself, calories.
Q Now, I have a last question to you: Witness, is it correct that the Dest in the German Earth and Stone Works had the right to exploit the gravel out of the Sola River and received the right by the electrical plant nearby?
A I do not know that.
DR. FROESCHMANN: No further questions, your Honor.
DR. HELZER: Your Honor, after having discussed many things with my client, I want you to permit me to ask certain questions of the witness. During the cross-examination of the witness Friday I was not here, and today I was surprised at his naming the Defendant Sommer. I was told that the witness had stated that the Defendant Sommer had been in Auschwitz all the time, constantly. I would like to ask the witness -
BY DR. BELZER:
Q Did Sommer actually belong to the Camp personnel at Auschwitz?
A Did he belong to whom?
Q Did he belong to the Camp personnel?
A Naturally he did, because all labor assignment people belonged to the camp.
Q The Defendant Sommer was labor assignment leader in the concentration camp of Auschwitz?
A Yes.
Q How was it then that on Friday you stated here that apart from the Defendant Pohl you recognized only Pohl among the Defendants and today you recognize, apart from the Defendant Pohl, the Defendant Sommers, and also the Defendant Eirenschmalz?
Q On Friday I was asked by the Prosecution if I could recognize Pohl or Bobermin and no further question. I was not asked any further question, namely, if I could recognize any of the other defendants.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is correct, Counsel. You were not here, and he was not asked whether he could identify any other defendants.
Q Since your last examination on Friday did you speak with a representative of the Prosecution?
A No, I left Nurnberg entirely immediately after the recess on Friday and I returned yesterday evening.
Q In other words, you still stick to your statement that no representative of the Prosecution ever showed you a picture of any of the Defendants?
A No, none. No pictures were shown to me.
Q Did you ever hear anything of the Bona Factory at Auschwitz?
A Yes.
Q In what camp was the Bona Factory?
A That was in Auschwitz III, Monnowitz.
Q Were you in that camp yourself?
A Yes, I went to work there one day with my commandos. That was when they were constructing the camp. And I also had some work to do there.
Q Did you ever hear the name, Kogon?
A Kogon? No.
Q No?
A No.
Q Did you ever read the book, "The SS State"?
A No, I never heard of such a name.
DR. BELZER: You did not know it. Thank you very much. That is all, your Honors.
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, I want you to grant me the permission to ask a few more questions of the witness, as a result of the crossexamination.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, upon the question of the Defendant Bobermin, you stated that it was not very difficult to come near the gas chambers. You remember that, don't you?
A I myself worked in the gas chamber. Our commando was granted permission to go there, because we had to carry out work there.
Q That is sufficient. The other task you had there was the one which you had during the whole period of time you were in Auschwitz, and the camp commander was Rudolf Hoess.
A No, I never said such a thing. I said that Hoess was one of them, ten Liebehenschel and after that Baer and then Hoess again.
Q However, you are of the opinion that the commander, Rudolf Hoess, has a very good knowledge of the situation in Auschwitz?
A Hoess? Yes, I think so.
Q All right. I will show you now a statement -- or at least put before you a statement as it was made by Hoess before the International Military Tribunal. The statement was made on the 15th of April, 1946. It is on the pages 7800 of the German record. Hoess was asked the following question: "Would you describe in a very few words if it is correct that the concentration camp of Auschwitz was entirely isolated and what measures were taken in order to carry out the tasks to which you were assigned." To this question the answer Hoess gave was: "The camp of Auschwitz as such was three kilometers from the city itself. The surroundings had been cleared of all the previous inhabitants there and the whole area could only be entered by SS men with special passes. The actual camp of Birkenau, namely where the exterminations took place, was built later on, and was two more kilometers from the camp of Auschwitz. The installations themselves, that is, the provisional installations used at the beginning were inside the woods and they could not even be seen from there, and could not be seen from far away.
Court No. IV, Case No. II.
"That special territory had been declared off-limits and could not even be entered by the SS members--or only could be entered by SS members who had a very special pass. That is how, according to human recollection, none was in a position to enter that territory except for those mentioned, with the passes."
Just a moment, witness; I shall ask you now. Do you still stick to your statement that you approached the gas chambers at about a distance of sixty meters?
A Yes.
Q And you saw the defendant Pohl?
A Yes. The statement made by Hoess I shall call a lie because what we knew in that respect was much more than what Hoess wanted to say in his statement.
Q And you call Hoess' statement a lie?
A Yes.
Q Even if I tell you that he was a witness in the Prosecution?
A The city was a distance of three kilometers; Birkenau was two kilometers from Auschwitz. That is correct, too. However, that the crematoria were in the woods is not true because in 1944 camouflage nets were used. In other words, artificial trees. But that did not apply either because the woods were behind the crematory No. 2; behind crematory No. 3 there was nothing but logs. And when we worked there as electricians--and I saw the gas chember several times--then we could always speak with the people who were going to be gassed; those who had just arrived from Holland and France and Hungary; and we could see everything. Then, I am not the only one who can actually assert that-but I can get you all the men from my Commando to testify to that effect, who will state exactly the same things as I am stating. I, myself, worked in crematoria, and I worked in the gas chambers, and I worked everywhere. For us there was no single place where we could not enter. We carried on all the work there. And apart from that what Hoess said, namely, that only SS could approach the camp or the terri Court No, IV, Case No. II.
tory around it, is not true either, because there were approximately five thousand civilians there. They worked within the premises of the camp--if not right near. And they worked in the various installations and the works that were carried out there, and that was their particular firm where these people were assigned to. Apart from that, several high-ranking officers came from outside of the camp and we all knew about it. We knew that Hoess and the others came to see the camp.
In other words, if they just came out of pure curiosity, then they had to see to it that Hoess could get the permission to come and visit the camp. We saw several curious SS men, and Germans who came into the camp.
Q That is enough.
What kind of a uniform did the defendant Oswald Pohl wear at the time?
A Uniform?
Q Or was he a civilian?
A No, he was wearing a uniform. He wore boots and short trousers and I believe that they were light trousers--not green. They were sort of light, but I am not quite sure about that. And he did not wear a coat. Her left the coat in his car. He wore some sort of a raincoat-I don't remember exactly. However, he did not wear a coat. --and he wore a cap, too.
Q Did he have any special decorations or medals?
A No, just small ones. He just wore the small ribbons.
Q He did not wear any metal medals, did he?
A No, he did not.
Q Were those medals that you saw?
A No, they were just small ribbons. However, I did not see any medals.
MR. SEIDL: No further questions of the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other counsel wish to cross-examine this witness?
Court No. IV, Case No. II.
Re-direct, Mr. Robbins?
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. ROBBINS: Just a few questions, Your Honor.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Herr Bielski, you just mentioned camouflage of crematoria and gas chambers. Would you give us a little more detail on the camouflage, please?
A Well, at the time when we worked there, there was no camouflage. Camouflage was only used after the arrival of the Greek transports. That was perhaps towards the end of July or August 1943. That was when the Greek transports arrived from Greece, and at that time the crematoria worked very often, and it was quite obvious for all the inmates in the camp could see it.
All the people were sent to the crematori--prior to that time the gas chambers. And that was the reason why camouflage was used at the time. That was the artificial trees I mentioned before. The trees of Babitz were cut off and they were set in there, and there were two rows of those trees right around the crematoria and the gas chamber. And apart from that--I believe that was later on--a sort of fence was placed around the trees, just small poles. And on that fence one could see small pieces of rags. Later on, when we could no longer enter, one could not see how the people were sent to the gas chambers. All we could hear were the screams and we could see the pile of smoke coming out of the chimney of the crematoria. And we also used some sort of a camouflage--that was in 1944; that was when the Hungarian Jews arrived-we used a music camouflage. At the time the children were burned on big piles of wood. The crematoria could not work at the time, and therefore, the people were just burned in open fields with those grills. And also children were burned among them. Children were crying helplessly and that is why camp administration ordered that an orchestra be made by a hundred inmates, and should play. They played very loud all the time. They played the Blue Danube or Rosamunde; so that even Court No. IV, Case No. II.
the people in the city of Auschwitz could not hear the screams. Without the orchestra they would have heard the screams of horror; they would have been horrible screams. The people two kilometers from there could even hear those screams, namely, that came from the transports of children. The children were separated from their parents, and then they were put to Section III Camp. Maybe the number of children was several thousand.
And then on one special day they started burning them to death. The gas chambers at the time were out of order--at least one of them was out of order, namely, the one near the crematory; it was destroyed by mutiny in a special Kommando in August 1944. The other three gas chambers were full of the adults and therefore the children were not gassed, but just burned alive.
When one of these SS people sort of had pity with the children, he took the child and beat the head against the stone first before putting it on the pile of fire and wood so that the child lost consciousness. However, the regular way they did it was by just throwing the children on to the pile.
They used to put a sheet of wood, then the whole thing was sprinkled with gasoline, then wood again, and gasoline and wood, and gasoline--and then people were placed on there. Thereafter the whole thing was lit.
Q And what period of time did that continue, Herr Bielski?
A With the children, you mean?
Q Yes.
A That was during those three months when most of the Hungarian transports came in; that was June '44, July, August; approximately around that period of time. However, what I mentioned about the orchestra was around the end of August. Several thousand children were burned to death alive.
Q Herr Bielski, you were asked by the Defense Counsel about food in the camp. Can you state that you saw people die in Auschwitz from undernourishment?
Court No. IV, Case No. II.
A. Yes, I can.
Q Herr Bielski, you stated that the work details brought back the dead workers--the dead and injured workers--to the camp. Was there a camp regulation that you bring back the dead with you from the work?
A Yes, there was; because the dead had to be counted due to the roll call in the morning. They always had to be counted.
Q In other words, the same number of people had to be brought back that were sent out?
A Yes, absolutely.
Q That was true whether the workers were dead or alive?
A Yes; all of them had to come back.
Q Herr Bielski, you stated, I believe, that you had worked for a newspaper organization.
A For a newspaper? In Auschwitz, you mean?
Q No, earlier than that.
A Oh, yes, before the arrest, you mean; yes.
Q Isn't it true that-- Is it not true that in your newspaper work you made it your business to remember names and to develop your memory for names?
A I did not quite get the question. I don't hear it quite well.
(Question repeated) Yes, it is true.
Q Herr Bielski, you were asked if you had been shown the pictures of the defendant Sommer. Is it not true that this morning before Court you told the Prosecution that at the time you identified Pohl you recognized Eirenschmalz and Sommer as having been in the dock?
A I did not understand your question. (Question repeated) Yes, that is correct.
Q Is it true that before you testified in Court on Friday that you were shown the picture of the defendant Pohl?
A I did not get that question. I can not hear it very well. Would you repeat it, please? (Question repeated) That is not true.
Q Herr Bielski, were you not shown a number of pictures and Court No. IV, Case No. II.
asked to identify some of the pictures? Herr Bielski, I am not talking about subsequent to your testimony; I am talking about on Friday; prior to your testimony were you shown a number of pictures and asked if you could identify any of those pictures?
A No, that is not correct; no pictures were shown to me.
Q Herr Bielski, did you hear what the defendant Sommer said to you when you pointed him out in the dock?
A Yes, I did. He called me a pig.
MR. ROBBINS: May I state for the record, Your Honors, that I also heard the defendant Sommer make that remark to the witness.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Is that the man you saw beat an inmate over the head with a brick?
A Yes, that is the man.
MR. ROBBINS: Prosecution has no further questions to ask.
DR. SEIDL: I have one more thing, Your Honors, to say. May I do so?
THE PRESIDENT: Did you say one?
DR. SEIDL: Yes.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, you testified that visits took place repeatedly in the concentration camp of Auschwitz and that they also visited the gas chambers.
That did not only apply to the gas chambers, but when the visitors came they visited the whole camp. Sometimes they visited that and sometimes this. I saw them everywhere: I saw them in the kitchens, in the billets, in the house where they kept the dead, the Kommando factory, etc.
Q. I shall ask you another question.
THE PRESIDENT: That makes two now.
DR. SEIDL: However, Your Honor, this was just the question prior to the question. The question will come now, Your Honor.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. I shall put another statement before you that the witness Rudolph Hoess made before the International Military Tribunal.
I am quoting:
"Q. During that conversation did Himmler tell you that that action should be treated as a secret Reich-matter?"
"A. Yes, he particularly stressed that point. He said that I was not even to tell my director supervisor or my immediate supervisor, namely, Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks; that the association was only between us two, and had to be kept a secret."
"Q. What was Gluecks position, whom I just mentioned?"
"A. Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks was the inspector of the concentration camps at the time and he was directly under the supervision of the Reichsfuehrer."
"Q. Does Secret Reich--matter mean that none could possibly speak about it without endangering his life?
MR. ROBBINS: Your Honor, I feel that this is not the proper re-cross of this witness. I think that this lays no possible foundation for a question that the Defense Counsel could put to him.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is difficult to tell until we hear what the question is going to be. Go ahead, Dr. Seidl.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q The witness Hoess answered to the question in the following manner--- and I am quoting:
"A Secret Reich--matter means for everybody who violates that rule, that he is not to speak to anybody about such things that happen and that he, himself, was responsible that nothing should respire about these things with reference to third persons."
And I ask you now, witness, do you still wish to stick to your statement?
A Yes, I still stick to that because I saw it with my own eyes, and I saw everything I mentioned here with my own eyes, and that I know that I made special effort in order to see the Himmler city, called Auschwitz.
Q And you are of the opinion apparently that the defendant Hoess also said a lie in this particular point?
A Well, perhaps he thought so, but if he could do that, that no one of us or no one of the SS-men could possibly know about that; I don't believe. Because I saw it myself how these people arrived in order to make visits, and how very many people were there.
DR. SEIDL: No further questions.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, I have just one more question.
MR. MC HANEY: This long speech by Hoess or Hurt in no way contradicts what this witness has testified to, and I would like to show that. Hoess testified that he had a conversation with Himmler, and Himmler said it was a top-secret matter, and he was not to say anything to Gluecks. This man has not said any word about a conversation.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is over anyway.
Are there any questions by other Counsel; any other crossexaminations? All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for defendant Bobermin):
Q Witness, you told me in the direct examination that you were carrying out a sort of activity before your arrest, namely, that you had a very good memory for names. I ask you now, witness: What kind of activity was it you mentioned?
A Whoever worked in an underground edition had to be able to know that quite a discretion was to be used, and he knew no other names but the psuedonyms in order to protect these individuals. And he, also, had to remember various names of cities or villages. He had to be able to learn them and keep them in mind. For instance we had certain documents which we wanted to make use of, and we had to learn them by heart in order to train our minds, and to be able to remember various things better in our mind than on paper because paper was dangerous. If the paper would have fallen in someone's hand, it could have been used in evidence against us. However, what we had in our brain could not be taken away from us.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until two o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1400 this afternoon.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION -------------( The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 14 April 1947.)
Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: Your Honor, I feel that it is our duty to the Tribunal to clear up one print in connection with the testimony of the witness Bielsky. I talked to Bielski during the noon recess with the assistance of Dr. Alexander and I also talked to the court interpreter and I feel myself that Herr Bielski has honestly misunderstood the question put to him by the defense counsel and by myself with reference to the pictures that had been shown him at earlier date and to clear up that I ask the indulgence of the Tribunal to recall Herr Bielsky for a few moments.
THE. PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. BELZER ( Attorneys for the defendant Sommer): May it please the court, before the recess, by request of the prosecution, it was put on record that the Defendant Sommer called the witness a " Schwein" when he was identified. On behalf of Defendant Sommer, I hereby state that the Defendant Sommer is deeply sorry to have committed that lapse. He was excited because of the witness' testimony and the Defendant-Witness regards himself to be innocent and it will be a matter for evidence to show proof the contrary. In any case, the defendant Sommer apologizes for this expression of his excitement.
THE PRESIDENT: Such vulgarity exhibited toward a witness who is here because he has been brought here is inexcusable and the apology of the defendant makes no difference. The Tribunal does not accept the apology nor overlook the incident.
JERZY BIELSKI - recalled by the Prosecution DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS Q Herr Bielski, do you recall on Friday last week when you came into Mr. McHeney's office?
A Yes, I do.
Q Do you recall stating that you had seen Pohl in Auschwitz and you could identify Pohl?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Then were a number of pictures without names on them shown to you?
A Yes.
Q And were you ask to pick out the picture of Oswald Pohl?
A Yes, I was Q Did you pick out a picture?
A Yes.
Q Was that the picture of Pohl?
A Yes.
Q From that group of pictures were you asked to pick out the picture of Bobermin?
A Yes.
Q And what did you say?
A I can not recognize him.
Q Then this morning in my office did you tell me that on Friday you had recognized Sommer and Pohl - -, no, I beg your pardon, Sommer and Eirenschmalz?
A Yes, that is true.
Q Were you then shown a number of pictures and asked to identify Sommer and Eirenschmalz?
A Yes.
Q Did you do that?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Bielski, will you tell us what you understood from my question this morning about the pictures and from the questions of the defense counsel about the pictures?
A I understood that the defense counsel to say whether the prosecution had shown me the pictures, and told me whom they represented; Pohl and the other two were pointed out to me by the Prosecution, it was said this morning.
Q In fact, was that ever done - were the pictures shown to you and that you were told that this was Pohl, and soforth?
A No.
MR. ROBBINS: That is all the questions we have.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. BELZER: Dr. Belzer for the defendant Sommer.
Q Witness, is it not true that I asked you if any of the prosecution showed you pictures of the defendants?
A Submitted and shown to me, you mean? That is what I understood.
Q Is it not true that I myself did not mention any name; that I put a very general question whether any member of the prosecution showed you pictures of the defendants?
A Yes. By showing, I understand, for instance, somebody gives a document and says this is a document, let me show something, if somebody gives me pictures, and asked me , what is this, that is a picture. In this case the pictures were submitted to me but not shown, and that is the difference I am making.
Q Can you recall when I examined you the first time, I asked you if the photographs of the defendants were shown to you?
A "Shown to you" you mean, yes; yes, I recall that.
Q Can you also recall that both in my first and my second examinations I asked you whether since your examination on Friday you had talked to a member of the Prosecution?
A Since Friday, since Friday, I said, yes, since the outside that I returned to Nurnberg last night.
Q Can you recall that you said, no, I left Nurnberg?
A Yes, I left Nurnberg.
Q And now you admit that this morning before the session you talked to a member of the Prosecution?
A This morning?
Q Yes, before the session, before the beginning of the session this morning?
A If you asked me whether the picture are shown to me?
Q Please answer the question. I asked you whether since Friday, since your examination on Friday, you had talked to a member of the Prosecution team.
Do you recall your answer, which was, no, I left Nurnberg?
A Yes.
Q And now do you admit that this statement of yours was incorrect?
A Yes, this morning before the session I talked to a member of the Prosecution team.
DR. BELZER: That is all, Your Honor.
MR. ROBBINS: I ask that the witness be dismissed. You will be excused.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is excused.
(Witness excused)
MR. ROBBINS: I ask that Josef Krysiak be called as a witness for the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: Marshal, will you please bring the other witness into court.
JOSEF KRYSIAK, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You will please raise your right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, can you hear me?
A Yes.
Q Witness, your name is Josef Krysiak, K-R-Y-S-I-A-K?
A Yes.
Q You are a German citizen?
A Yes.
Q And when and where were you born?
A 8 May 1911 in Dortmund, Westphalia.
Q Where in Dortmund?
A Dortmund, that is in Westphalia.
Q Then you are now approximately thirty-seven years old?
A Thirty-six.
Q What is your present occupation?
A I am Trustee in Fulda.
Q Where is that?
A In Fulda.
Q Will you state where you took your primary studies?
A I studied first at Zurich, and with my examination I took studies for technical qualifications at Charlottenburg - Berlin.
Q You graduated from the Technical University at Berlin?
A Yes, in Charlottenburg.
Q That was in 1936?
A Yes, in 1936.
Q You are a graduate engineer, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Did you do anything in aircraft construction?
A Yes.
Q After your graduation in 1936 from the University of Berlin, where did you go first?
A I worked for one year in Amsterdam.
Q And then?
AAnd then to the Messerschmitt in Augsburg in 1938 and then I gave lectures in Bonn -- I attended lectures in Bonn.
Q Until what date?
A That was the middle of 1939.
Q Then what happened?
A Then I was drafted back to the Messerschmitt firm.
Q In Augsburg?
A Yes, that was in Augsburg.
Q You remained there until when?
A Up until 9 December 1940. Until I was arrested.
Q You were arrested by whom?
A By the Gestapo office in Munich.
Q For what?
A It was said to be a statement of undermining the fighting morale of the Germans.
Q Now how was it that you accomplished this?
A I made objections to material questions,and after the conference of 1940 in Berlin I said, "The moment the USA enters the war, we will have lost the war."
Q Were you interrogated by the Gestapo?
A Yes, in Munich.
Q Were you interrogated a very long period of time?
A Yes, for three days I was interrogated.
Q You were interrogated from 9 December 1940 to the 12th December 1940, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct, and then I was sent in a transport to Mauthausen.
Q You were sentenced to Mauthausen, were you?
A Yes.
Q And for how long a period of time were you sentenced?
A On my paper it said, on my little piece of paper, they gave me six months for political retraining.
Q And then how long did you stay at Mauthausen?
A Up until the duration of the 5 May 1945.