Q. I am not sure what he told the interrogator, but I am certain that is not what he told us here on the stand. Now, referring to your affidavit, which is in Document Book II, rather Book I -- you have that before you?
A. I, I don't, (handed to witness) Yes, I have it now.
Q. You told us that the last two paragraphs in your affidavit are not true, is that right?
A. What last paragraphs are you referring to?
Q. Let's first take the last paragraph -- Tschentscher handled the food supplies for concentration camp guards. I understood you to say that, although you swore to this statement at the time, it is not true. Did I misunderstand you?
A. I stated that I could not swear to it under oath from my own knowledge, in the presence of the attorney Dr. Rauschenbach when in the suggested discussion--
Q. I am not talking about the discussion. You can answer this question very shortly. The last paragraph - is it true, or is it not true as it stands? I am just trying to find out what is true in your affidavit.
A. What paragraph are you referring to? What particular paragraph are you referring to?
Q. The last paragraph that consists of one sentence: Standartenfuehrer Tschentscher handled food supplies for the entire Waffen SS, as well as for the guards for the concentration camps.
A. Yes, I know about that. I knew that from my personal knowledge.
Q. All right. Now, let's take the previous paragraph about Georg Doerner. Is that true or is it false?
A. I have already stated that according to my knowledge that was an assumption which I could make, that is to say, there must have been an agency which would have negotiated as the higher agency, and the ex pression "on the top level", which has been discussed so much yesterday, was added from the conclusion of Dr. Rauschenbach, my attorney, who said -- well, somebody must have been there who carried out the negotiations, and then I was also of the opinion and I said yes, I think so too, from the point of view of the work, this must have been so.
I once more pointed out literally I could not swear to it as a fact, and now I would like to point out the following: Mr. Orthmann showed as a record from the 19th of October--
JUDGE PHILLIPS: We heard that yesterday in detail, and he has gone over the same thing again and it took him about thirty minutes yesterday, and counsel's examination, his own counsel, and counsel for Goerg Loerner, and in substance, after thirty minutes' talk he said this: That he and the man who took the affidavit, the interrogator, agreed that they would add "the top level" and that would be about right, but now he says he doesn't think this of this affidavit, that it is an assumption on his part, and that it is not true as stated in part of the affidavit. So, there is no use of going over that again.
MR. ROBBINS: You are quite right, Your Honor.
Q. Now, let's take a look at the third paragraph from the last; that wasn't discussed yesterday. Amtsgruppe A, or rather Office 4, under Standartenfuehrer Vogt, had to check up at random on all expenditures of the individual Amtsgruppen within the WVHA, with the exception of Amtsgruppen C and W, and you were Vogt's superior, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it also right that Oberfuehrer Hans Loerner became your deputy for Amtsgruppe A in October 1944?
A. In the formal sense, as senior officer, yes. However, as far as I can recall, no official appointment took place.
Q. Is it also true, just as it appears in your affidavit just above "page 4 of the original" --
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Is it necessary to go through this part by part? Is it necessary to have it affirmed once again when it has already been sworn to and accepted as a fact?
MR. ROBBINS: If Your Honor please, this is last point I have, and his testimony on this point was very obscure to me yesterday.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I see.
Q. Department II dealt with the personnel files of the administration officers, both of Amtsgruppen B, C, and W, and of those of the administration officers of Amtsgruppe D and the troop units, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I direct your attention for a moment to the budgetary matters of Amtsgruppe A. I must say that from your testimony yesterday I have a very obscure picture of what you were trying to tell us. Would you tell us as simply as possible what part in the financial affairs, the monetary affairs, of the concentration camp Amtsgruppe A played; and first, confine yourself to the period before May, 1944, and secondly, after May, 1944, when you became chief of Amtsgruppe A.
A. I regret that I cannot describe to you the things before the time of May 1944 from my own personal knowledge. I did not know exactly how the details were handled. At the time I worked in my personnel office from morning until night and my time was completely filled up, and even on Sundays there was so much work to do that I could not worry about what happened in A-1, A-2, A-3, and A-4. There was no reason for me to do so. I can in no way give you any information about just how the details were handled.
Q. So, although you were deputy chief of the Amtsgruppe A during that period of time, prior to May, 1944, you cannot, from your own knowledge, or from your having seen the correspondence in the office, or conversations with other members of Amtsgruppe A, tell us anything about the financial connection between Amtsgruppe A and the concentration camps?
A. No, after all the correspondence went out apart from my hands; I did not receive any knowledge of it.
Q. All right. Then tell us the complete story after May, 1944.
A. I believe that I have expressed myself very clearly about this matter yesterday.
Q. Now, don't give us the whole operations of Amtsgruppe A; just tell us what, at what point of contact, what point of contact there was with the concentration camps.
A. Points of contact existed formally according to existing regulations, in examinations or in spot tests, which were carried out either by the auditing office or by the auditing court. They were carried out in accordance with existing regulations.
Q What kind of examinations are you talking about?
A I am referring to auditing of bills.
Q And what kind of bills are you talking about?
A I am referring to bills which went to the treasures, and we had to make spot tests. That is exactly how I expressed it in detail.
Q Are these bills which came from the concentration camps through Amtsgruppe D?
A I have already stated that according to the regulations the matter was formally carried out. However, these examinations could not be carried out actually anymore, not only with Amtsgruppe D but with the entire Waffen SS. Amtsgruppe D did not form an exception in this case with regard to the simplification of administration and the discontinuance of auditing.
Q Don't tell me about regulations or the theory. Tell me about the actual contacts, financial and monetary contacts that had with the concentration camps, and if it is your contention that there were none -- just say that there were none.
A I cannot answer the question in this manner. I have just stated that according to the regulations it was done in such-and-such a way, and from my own knowledge I do not know when and where auditing was still carried out. It is impossible for me to know that and I cannot make any statement about it. The auditing office was not located in my agency; it was located outside of my office.
Q Well, it was under you. Didn't you ever talk to Vogt at all after May 1944?
A I have stated that I discussed the matter with Vogt three or four or five times. We talked about the effects of the simplification in the administration and about the results and their effects on the personnel, and about the discontinuance of my agency.
Q You told us about the regulations that existed for auditing. You have also said that you don't know how many audits were made. I am asking you now, if you know whether any audits at all were made.
A Well, I did not receive any detailed knowledge. Of course, our auditing was still being carried on.
Q After May 1944?
A Yes. The 3, 4, 5, or 6 administrative officers which had remained there, of course, continued to close out the matters which were being dealt with, and they would submit these things to the auditing court and the agency concerned.
Q And these were audits of bills which came from the concentration camps?
A That escapes my knowledge entirely. I don't know what bills we are concerned with here, with two hundred or two hundred fifty treasuries -- an estimate -- and all of this referred to some time before that, and, individually, only on-the-spot tests were made.
Q These "flying" or on-the-spot tests were made of the bills in Amtsgruppe D. You know that don't you?
A With bills of Amtsgruppe D?
Q Yes. You heard Frank explain that. I am trying to find out now what you knew from your own knowledge.
A I have already stated that flying checks were made.
Q And they were made of the bills of Amtsgruppe D?
A I don't know that, individually, where the auditing was carried out.
Q I didn't ask you where; I am asking you what bills.
A Well, whenever bills were submitted; whenever auditing was carried out.
Q From Amtsgruppe D?
A I don't know that. I don't know in detail if they worked on them or if Vogt sent one person or another directly to some place. I want to point out something in addition which has not been discussed yet at all; that the official trips had been limited to the utmost.
Q Now I am not confining the question to Vogt personally at all. I am asking you about the office of audits, A-4. You know, don't you, that A-4 made spot - or flying checks of the bills, expenses, which came from Amtsgruppe D.
A No; I didn't know that. I didn't know what tests were made in individual cases.
Q You knew that the regulations provided for that?
A Yes.
Q And you knew that the regulations provided for flying - or spot checks of the bills of the concentration camps by A-4?
A I don't know if this was to be done by A-4 or the auditing court. That was discussed before my time. At my time all these matters were discontinued, and I don't know in the individual cases where the examinations were made and what was being examined there.
Q Well, what bills did you think that Amtsgruppe D dealt with, if it weren't the bills of the concentration camps?
A I didn't say that they weren't bills from the concentration camps. Of course, Amtsgruppe D dealt with bills from the concentration camps -- or the treasuries of the concentration camps. It is done the same way today in every internment camp; well, bills accumulate there also.
Q Then you were pretty certain, weren't you, since the regulations provided that A-4 made spot - or flying checks of Amtsgruppe D bills - and Amtsgruppe D's bills consisted of bills from the concentration camps; and that A-4 followed out some of the regulations, that A-4 made checks of bills from concentration camps? You were pretty certain of that, weren't you?
A I was not certain of that. I did not know if this auditing was carried out. No reports were submitted to me about it.
Q Are you pretty certain of it today?
A That has not become evident from any document. I just don't know.
Q Would you say that it is probable?
A I believe that assumptions do not constitute personal knowledge.
Q Yesterday, in answer to a question put to you by Georg Loerner's attorney, you said that you were responsible for all monetary matters at the top level and that if anything had gone wrong, "I would have been responsible." That applies to your supervision over the bills of Amtsgruppe D, doesn't it, and the funds handled by Amtsgruppe D?
A I believe there is no doubt of that with regard to the responsibility. It is always so in the military service: that the superior officer is responsible for things which were done under his supervision. Of course it is important whether he caused these things to be carried out or whether he had any knowledge of them. It is always so when something goes wrong; it always comes from the top level until it comes to the lowest subordinate, until it comes down to the person who has happened to do something wrong.
Q Well, I think it is fairly clear about the duties of A-4. Now, let us turn for a moment to the duties of A-1 and A-2, which concerned budget, finance and payroll. I would like to ask you about a hypothetical question. Suppose that the administrative officers -well, let us go back a little further. Suppose concentration camp Dachau was in need of 50,000 gloves for its inmate workers. First, who would report this need, and to whom would it be reported?
A That probably would have been the top superior agency, if they would not have any in the camp.
Q Well, there was an administrative officer in the camp. It would have been reported to him, wouldn't it?
A Yes, it would have been reported to the administrative officer.
Q And then the administrative officer would put in requisition, a request, to whom would he go to obtain these gloves. Would it have been to Amtsgruppe B? Wouldn't it?
A No.
Q Where would it go?
A To Amtsgruppe D.
Q And then where would it go?
A From there, if Amtsgruppe D had things at this disposal, these things would be delivered. And if they had no stock on hand anymore, they would make a request to Amtsgruppe B.
Q And then they would be delivered to the administrative official. Now, this material had to be paid for. What happened? Did the administrative official write a check on the Reichsbank?
A No, the administrative officer didn't have to pay for that. The clothing was not paid for by the administrative officer.
Q Well, there must have been a credit entered in the books somewhere. Just tell us what bookkeeping arrangements were carried out at that point.
A I have already stated that the Reich Treasuries, like treasuries all over the Reich, met their vital requirements from the Reichsbank, or with the next main treasury of the Wehrmacht.
I don't know if this was done every ten days or once a month. That was either done in one way or another.
Q I am sorry I don't understand your answer. Would you tell us again what bookkeeping entries, arrangements, were made at this point? I will try to concentrate.
A Well, I did not see any individual books from the concentration camps, and I have not seen any individual bills. I can only say that, and I can only assume that it was done in the same manner as in the former military administration which I had.
Q And you want us to believe that on no purchase that was made for the concentration camps after May, 1944, on no purchase of Office A-1 or A-2 had anything to do with it, had any notification whatever, and that Amtsgruppe A was completely by-passed on it? On these financial dealings?
A I didn't say that.
Q Well, what -- Just tell us what contacts A-1 and A-2 had.
AAll I said was that I don't know if any such case occurred. That is what I said. We did not -- our office did not -- have any -thing to do anymore with the allotment of funds. If they received knowledge of any individual case, A-1, or A-2, that I don't know. If this was the case, well, I was chief of the Amtsgruppe. Although I was chief of the Amtsgruppe, I certainly couldn't be informed of everything that happened; no troop commander or regimental commander could do that.
THE PRESIDENT: Let us put on the gloves after lunch.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until one-forty-five.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 12 June 1947) THE MARSHAL:
The Tribunal is again in session.
HEINZ KARL FANSLAU---Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION -- Continued
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, I only have a few additional questions and I should like to finish up the cross-examination as soon as possible. Can you tell us when the so-called budget for the Waffen-SS was introduced?
A. I can't give you any exact date. As far as I know, that happened already before I took over my office, before I was charged with the leadership of the Amtsgruppe.
Q. And was there at that time also an open budget for the Allgemeine-SS?
A. In the General SS, I had no information about its administration, because I had nothing to do with it. I had nothing to do with the administration of funds.
Q. Who handled the administration of the funds for the General SS?
A. Pohl did.
Q. By himself?
A. No, in the details he was assisted by Hans Loerner of Office A -I and he had to carry out the administrative tasks, as far as any tasks accumulated for the General SS.
Q. This was handled by A -I?
A. Yes, the then Oberfuehrer Loerner held two positions here. He had a dual position, adding to his main work.
Q. This is another instance where someone held a dual capacity, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And he handled the budget for the Allgemeine SS, not as Office Chief, but as--in what capacity?
A. As commissioner of Pohl and from the Reich Treasurer Schwarz, he was also directed to carry out this work.
Q. You had no supervision over that whatever?
A. I did not have any authority, nor did I have to deal with tasks of that type at all. He never reported to me about these things and it would have been impossible that as a member of the Waffen-SS, as an active member of the Waffen-SS, I should do some work for the General-SS.
Q. There wasn't very much work to be done at that any way, was there? for the General SS in May, 1944?
A. I can't judge that in the details. I can only say that only since we discontinued the most part, I know that the agencies outside had been discontinued and that the commissioned administrative leaders who were working had been transferred to the Army, the Waffen-SS or to the Luftwaffe.
Q. Was there an open budget during your time as Chief of A for the personnel who were working in the 12 main officess of the SS?
A. Yes, well, personnel was required for the war effort.
Q. And who handled the bookkeeping on the wages for the personnel in the 12 main offices?
A. Well, I cannot state--I cannot make any statement in detail about the one or the other main office. In any case there was a central payment agency of the Waffen SS and I believe at the end this was also true for the police, but that is only an assumption on my part. I cannot say that precisely of my own knowledge.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q For the personnel in the WVHA, who handled the bookkeeping for the payments to the individual Amt Chiefs? That was handled under A, wasn't it?
A The bookkeeping was subordinated to A, and it was with the Central Payment Agency. However, this did not include those who were in the sector of a private economy and who were paid there. I had nothing to do with this treasury, and I believe that it was not even located in our house. But I don't know that exactly either.
Q The Main Pay Office of the SS was located in Dachau, wasn't it? That was handled under A, wasn't it?
A No main pay office existed in that sense. For example, as I have already mentioned, there were several treasuries, those payment agencies were organized according to their localities. They served a certain garrison, and these garrison administrations, of which there were several, were subordinated to the Operational Main Office. That is exactly the same as it was handled in the army administration, in the Wehrmacht.
Q Was there an open budget in May 1944 for the Death Head units?
A As far as I know, no special budget existed at all there anymore for the Death Head units, through the consolidation of the Waffen SS. I don't know exactly when this took place for at that time I was out in the field. I don't know exactly when the consolidation with the Waffen SS took place.
Q Budgetary activities for the Death Head units were handled together with the Waffen SS then?
A I cannot say anything about what happened before my time because in my time no budget existed anymore. That is why I don't know what was done previously.
Q When you say no budget existed, don't you mean there was an open budget? That's not the same as no budget, is it?
A Well, the budget was unlimited, and the money was paid Court No. II, Case No. 4.out according to the requirements which were required for the work.
Q There were records kept of the money that was paid out, weren't there? You just didn't quit keeping books altogether?
A I believe the difference must be made between bookkeeping and budget. As an administrative officer and in peacetime these were two completely different divisions and departments.
Q Then let me ask you about them separately. As far as the functions of budgets are concerned, wasn't it the task of some office in Amtsgruppe A to forward to the Reich Ministry of Finance some kind of request to make funds available for the Waffen SS?
A Yes; of course, that was before my time.
Q Well, during your time wasn't it also the function of A to forward these requests for funds, that is, to make funds available to the Waffen SS?
A I haven't quite understood the translation. I never heard of any case where a request was made. I can't recall any case at all.
Q Well, how would the Reichsbank know hoe to pay? Could just anyone write checks on the Reichsbank?
A Yes. Previously from the Wehrmacht Main Pay Office he bad received a numbered checkbook so that he would be able to draw funds, and these checks were registered. Later on these checks were used as evidence; and with the Reich Main Treasury they appeared as a receipt for money which had been drawn.
Q Didn't these receipts reach any office under Amtsgruppe A?
A Well, this question goes too far. I don't know.
Q How about the income to the SS, the dues of the SS members, subscriptions, and donations from members of the FM and other sources of income? Where was that handled? You must have kept some record of that.
A Well, contributions in the Reich budget did not come to my knowledge.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q They weren't handled by A? Not contributions to the Reich budget; contributions by FM members, subscribers to the SS, and dues paid to the SS. Weren't they handled by Amtsgruppe A?
A As far as I can recall there were no membership contributions anymore from members who continued to contribute. This was a Party matter, and this was completely discontinued. I believe this was done by an express order from the Reich Treasury.
Q Did Amtsgruppe A handle any income of the SS during May 1944 and later?
A Well, if this income was an income of the Reich, then it would have been possible that income of the Reich was submitted there. As is done with every Treasury of the Reich, we had a special title for that in the war budget. It was an income title for income of the Reich.
Q Now, that was handled by A. What office in A?
A That was done in all treasuries, not only in A. A itself did not have its own treasury but it had a treasury of the WVHA, or it had a house treasury or Reich treasury. That was not only the case in the WVHA; that was the case with all treasuries, also in the army.
Q Let's take a case of income to the SS from the use of concentration camp inmates who were assigned to private industry or to the SS industries under Amtsgruppe W. These funds were handled by Amtsgruppe A, weren't they?
A No, they were paid to the competent treasuries and accounted for there. However, I don't know exactly how the details were handled.
Q You should have listened more carefully to your colleague Frank's testimony because he explained that these were handled by Amtsgruppe A.
A Pardon, but then I would only repeat what I have already heard here. After all, I am to tell you of the knowledge which I had at the time.
Q Now, let's turn for a moment to another subject. Some Court No. II, Case No. 4.administrative leaders in the concentration camps were named by you, were they not; designated by you?
A Well, they were furnished by me.
Q You sent Burger out to Auschwitz around 1943 as an administrative officer in Auschwitz, didn't you?
A I don't know anything about that. I believe he was already at Auschwitz when I came.
Q You don't remember sending him to Auschwitz? You don't remember signing the order sending him there?
A It may be possible; but I assume that he had already been sent there at an earlier period of time. However, it is quite possible that this was done on my orders in this individual case. With these 2,800 or 2,500 people, I really can't recall in detail whom I sent; but it is quite possible.
Q Wasn't this actually a function of Office A V/4?
A No.
Q What office under A V handled this matter?
A A V/2.
Q Now, if someone was called back from the Waffen SS, from the front, for example from the Death Head Fighting Division, he was called back to the WVHA for reassignment as an administrative officer in the concentration camp, this would be handled in A V/2? Is that right?
A Well, it doesn't matter from what unit in the field he came. That applied to all units in the field. Later on they had no Death Head units anymore; but we had a Death Head Division. After the beginning of the war the Death Head unit was designated as the Death Head Division, just like any other division, the Viking Division, or the Division Reich. This applied to all divisions.
Q Now, what type of officer did Harbaum as Gluecks adjutant assign to the concentration camps? These were non-commissioned officers and enlisted men, were they not?
A Yes, I don't know where these people came from individually. I have already stated that this was a special branch, and in the personnel main office it was treated as a special branch; that included everybody that had worked in the inspecting system of the concentration camps, guard, and so on.
Q Now, for just a moment I would like to direct your attention to the Verwaltungsamt SS, which you discussed briefly on direct examination. You became chief of Office V-1, which was budget, in 1937, did you not?
A I beg your pardon; that was in 1938.
Q 1938? I believe Frank told us it was in 1937? was he wrong in that respect?
A I don't know that he made a statement of that sort; I believe that he said 1938, and that is correct.
Q What month in 1938; do you recall?
A It took me about six to eight weeks until I got used to the work; it was in January and February, and effective the first of March, I was then assigned to the special duty squad.
Q And how long were you - for what period of time were you chief of V-1?
A Until the middle of June, 1938. However, a difference must be made here; I was the V-1, for Victory 1, of the special duty squad, and I had to deal with the budget of the special duty unit.
Q Did you carry out the same activity as chief of V-1 as Frank had performed, in that same capacity as you heard his description of it?
A Yes, within the special duty unit.
Q And you prepared the budget there for the SS?
A Well, there were several branches of the SS; there was also a branch TV and concentration camps, and I prepared the budget VT that budget had already been compiled when I came. When I prepared the new budget it was in the fall of 1938 when I was administrative officer. At that time I prepared the new budget for 1939. The budget for 1938 had already been compiled and completed.
Q And you prepared the budget for 1939?
A Yes.
Q Well, Frank told us that the office of V-1 took case of the budget for the Death Head units and the concentration camps, and that came within his sphere of tasks as chief of V-1. When you succeeded him in that position, you also succeeded to those duties, did you not?
A No. This must either be a mistake here in the record because a certain Kaindl was there before me, and he had already become chief of Eicke before I ever entered the administrative main office. He worked on the budgets, the TV and KL.
Q Frank said this: "In 1936 the budget of the Death Head units and the concentration camps came into the sphere of the task of V-1." I am reading from his testimony. "It was formulated so that it would be correct ministerially speaking, certain bureaucratic traditions had to be observed; it was re-changed into a ministerial document and then submitted to the Ministry of Interior," and then he told us that the Reich Ministry of Interior passed it on to the Reich Ministry of Finance; don't you remember that?
A Yes; it may have been possible that Frank carried out these negotiations, but I myself did not participate in them. I worked on the budget for the special units.
Q He carried them out as chief of V-1, but when you became chief of V-1 they disappeared; is that right?
A I have already stated that I did not compile the budget, and that at my time the budget discussions had already taken place.
Q You told us
A I myself worked on the VT budget and I myself became the administrative officer of the VT.
Q You didn't have anything whatever to do with the budget of the Death Head units, the TV or the concentration camps?
A Something may have passed through my hands, but I can't recall anything in detail. It is possible that by order of Frank, who remained there, and I was told that these central matters would be handled by Frank in his capacity as Stabsfuehrer because I was new in that position; I didn't know the work, and it was my task to take over the administration of the special units, the special duty squad.
Q It was your task to take over the office V-1, wasn't it; you were chief of the office?
A Yes.
Q Prior to May, 1944, how often did you confer with the defendant Pohl?
A I may have seen him daily; I don't know that exactly. It depended upon the fact that I was very much in his vicinity.
Q And after May, 1944, did that relationship continue?
A I would see him once or twice within a two week period; then, again I wouldn't see him for about three weeks. It was just like one of the office chiefs of the Amtsgruppen; it depended upon the work which I had accumulated, and about which I had to have the discussion.
Q And all the other office chiefs conferred with him about the same amount; is that right?
A I can't judge that at all. We had to have ourselves announced first at the adjutant's office by telephone, and then we asked if the chief would be there and can I have a discussion with him; then he would ask me how much time do you need; I would say fifteen minutes, or thirty minutes, forty-five minutes; we would give the approximate time which we required to in order to carry out our business.
Q After May, 1944, did your visits with Pohl increase or decrease?
A I believe the number of visits to Pohl remained the same. I can't say any more today whether in the month of May I paid so many visits to him, and so I am really unable to give you any information about that any more.
Q How often did you confer with the defendant Frank?
A Sometimes it may have been two or three times a week, and then I may have only seen him once in a two week period. I can't say that exactly any more today.
Q How often did you confer with the defendant Vogt, V-o-g-t? And confine yourself to the period before May, 1944.
A It is absolutely impossible for me to make any statement about it. In any case, I only saw him on very rare occasions; and at this time may have discussed personnel matters.
Q How often did you confer with Hans Loerner?
A The personnel matters had very little to do with him, because he never had much personnel under him, even at an earlier time.
Q How often did you confer with Melmer in A-III?
A Perhaps two or three times. However, my secretary would deal with monetary matters most of the time. I personally never collected the expenses which arose from my trips; my secretary did all that sort of work.
Q Witness, will you tell us what the last orders were that you gave as chief of "A"?
A The last orders were the evacuation of the agency and its discontinuance.
Q Did you give any instructions to any one for the destruction of correspondence, or files, or documents?
A Yes, that was a general military order. All military agencies had to comply with this order, and this was done in every war; and this was done in all units.
Q What were the instructions that you gave?
A I can't recall the details any more today. These files were to be burned or destroyed, and this applied for all files; it also applied to all agencies. I received this order in writing from the personnel main office, and also orally.
Q I have one last question. Is it true that, as Frank said, that you and he were disappointed in the SS; that you didn't see what you expected to see?
A Yes, especially during the last two years of the war we were disappointed about many of the high leaders, and many of the ideas; and we were very disappointed also about their manner of living.