THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Robbins, before you begin your cross examination, in two or three of your questions you indicated that the defendant had on occasion publicly condemned anti-Semitic excesses. Now, I did not gain the impression that he had every publicly done so. He had at the home of his sister-in-law and in private conversations expressed his vigorous disapproval of some of these excesses, but I am not aware that at any public function or in any public way he so expressed himself. I would like to get that clear.
MR. ROBBINS: I very possibly misunderstood the witness.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, is His Honor's statement of your testimony correct?
A. I did not quite clearly understand the question in the translation.
Q. Did you at any time openly and publicly criticize the Nazi Party program?
A. I did not criticize it in public. I criticized it within the circle of my friends.
Q. Witness, in addition to the so-called racial groups in the concentration camps, racial groups who were incarcerated in the concentration camps, you also knew that there were other groups of inmates, such as the Bible Research Workers, did you not?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And Jehova's Witnesses?
A. They are the same as you just mentioned.
Q. This is called "Bibelforscher"?
A. Yes. They are also known as Bibelforscher.
Q. You also knew that another group consisted of trade union members, did you not?
A. Trade union people?
Q. Yes, labor unions.
A. No.
Q. You did not know that groups of trade union people were incarcerated in the concentration camps?
A. What groups you refer to, if these were trade union people, I don't know anything about it. I knew that they were political enemies before and after 1933. However, I don't know what individual groups were included in the concentration camps and who, individually, were sent there.
Q. Did you ever find out that trade union members were sent to concentration camps, even up until today?
A. It may be that I have read about it somewhere, but I cannot recall any particular details.
Q. You also knew, did you not, that prisoners of war were incarcerated in concentration camps?
A. I did not know that about prisoners of war, unless they were sent there through certain decrees or violations of decrees which were issued. To what extent this applied to Russian prisoners of war I did not know either. It may be possible that Russian prisoners of war were transferred for some reason or other and were committed to concentration camps.
Q. It is not only possible, it is highly probably. You know that today for a fact?
A. I know it today, yes.
Q. When did you first find out about it?
A. I say I know it today from the documents and that I considered it possible at the time.
Q. What decrees were you talking about when you said that some prisoners of war were sent to concentration camps by decree?
A. Well, I said I did not know any details. Perhaps because they had committed some offenses, or perhaps some other directives. I don't know the regulations in detail which caused them to be transferred to concentration camps. If I ever obtained knowledge of any particular case through the press or through my correspondence or through passing orders -- which is possible -- this was not any particularly official point, so that I would still remember this today, or so that it would have remained in my memory from that time.
Q. How many inmates did you think were incarcerated in the concentration camps when you came to the WVHA, let's say by April 1942, when the Inspectorate was incorporated into the concentration camps?
A. I cannot give you any figure. It is very difficult for me to give you any number at all. I did not know how much personnel was located within the individual concentration camps. If I should make an estimate, then I could not draw any conclusions for all the concentration camps on the whole.
Q. I am not talking about military or civilian personnel. I am talking about inmates. You heard Pohl say here on the stand that 600,000 people, according to his estimate, were in concentration camps in 1944. Can you give us any idea as to the number of inmates that you would have estimated in 1942?
A. I cannot give you any figure whatsoever. When I entered the agency, I was completely new in that field, and I had no previous knowledge.
Q. Did you think that all of the people who had been sent to concentration camps had been given a hearing?
A. Yes, I believed that; in all cases I believed that they had at least been interrogated, if they were not given a trial.
Q. Did you think that they had all been given a trial?
A. Yes, in all cases.
Q. What kind of a trial did you think they had been given, and by whom?
A. Well, at least the denunciation had to be there, or a record must have been made that the person had committed such and such a crime or that in certain points and laws, military security measures and regulations and police security measures, he had committed some sort of offense.
Q. That was usually the extent of the trial, wasn't it, just what you have described?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever see a protective custody order, witness?
A. No, I don't know anything about them.
Q. When one of your relatives was sent to a concentration camp, didn't you see the protective custody order?
A. No. I stated that I heard the first news from my relative himself, and then afterwards I first of all contacted the police president by telephone in order to find out exactly what was going on.
Q. How many people did you know personally who were sent to a concentration camp?
A. I know for certain that two people were sent there.
Q. And you did not see the protective custody order in either case?
A. No.
Q. Were you told what the protective custody order contained?
A. No, I did not know anything about the contents of such an order.
Q. You do not know even today that all the protective custody order states is "Suspicion of activities toward the State"? You never heard about that?
A. I don't know anything about it.
Q. We'll pass on to another subject, witness. You were a member of the Lebensborn, were you not?
Q Can you tell us what the Lebensborn stood for?
A The Lebensborn was a registered society. It was financed by fees and contributions of members, of all SS members whose membership in the SS was their main profession. That is, people had to pay a certain fee in accordance with their rank, and according to their income, and according to their number of children, or their family status.
Q You also knew, didn't you, Witness, that this organization was designed to promote the birth of illegitimate children?
A No. I myself am the father of four children, and I didn't know of any such institution or any such purpose.
Q You didn't take any part in the sterilization program either with which the WVHA was connected?
A No. I didn't even know anything about it.
Q. Let me read to you an order of Himmler concerning the Lebensborn, and see what he has to say. This is the 13th of September, 1936, Himmler's order entitled "Foundation of the Organization Lebensborn, E.V." "The question of multiplicity of children is not a private affair of the individual, but his duty toward his ancestors and of the people." And his order on the 28th of October, 1939, directed to the SS, published in the SS manual. "The Soldier's Friend," --
DR. VON STAKELBERG: I would like to object to the reading from a book here. The Prosecutor has not stated what book he is reading from. He has not said what authentic sources, how authentic the sources are for the statements made in this book.
MR. ROBBINS: Counsel is quite right. The order that I have just read from was in evidence before the Internation Military Tribunal as Document 2825-PS, contained in an official publication of the I. M. T. called "Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression," and the order of Himmler of 28 October, 1929, which I am about to read from, is from the same document.
THE WITNESS: On the 28th of October, 1929?
MR. ROBBINS: 1939.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Himmler ordered, "Though in other times it may perhaps be considered an infraction of necessary social standards and conventions, German women and children of good blood can fulfill a high obligation by bearing children out of wedlock to soldiers going to the front." You never heard about this?
A I don't understand the sense of that statement.
Q Perhaps I should read it to you again. "German women and children of good blood can fulfill a high obligation by bearing children out of wedlock to soldiers going to the front." You didn't bear about this? It was in a pamphlet distributed to the SS.
A Of children out of wedlock?
Q That is what Himmler said.
A I don't know of this individual phrase in this decree. I know that several of our women had their own views with regard to the sort of matrimony they wanted and to bear illegitimate children.
Q I am just asking you about the views of the Lebensborn. You didn't know that this was their policy, is that correct?
A The Lebensborn maintained the point of view, the Lebensborn had been established in order to help women who did not dispose of any funds, and to make it easier for them to have children on the basis of a general institution where they could give birth to a child under very low-priced and favorable conditions. The same thing was to include children which were born out of matrimony. Thus, for example, a girl who was working and who was all alone, and it happens at all times that children out of matrimony are being born, and so that these girls also have this period of time to be taken care of, and that they would find a lodging, and that they would have the possibility to give birth to their children, that is how I regarded the establishment of the Lebensborn. I don't think it was to favor the giving of birth to children out of matrimony, or I don't think it it was to form a degradation of the concepts of matrimony, and I couldn't regard it as such.
I myself was never too high in this world about matrimony, and I myself have had a very happy married life.
Q That is very interesting but it does not answer my question. I asked you if you knew anything about Hitler's order that I read to you - Himmler's order.
A It is quite possible -
DR. HOFFMAN (For the defendant Scheide) Your Honor, I would be very grateful to the Prosecution if perhaps they should give me the number of the second letter. I can't recall that this letter was also submitted to the International Military Tribunal.
MR. ROBBINS: This is the same document as the first, and I will try to bring counsel a copy of it during the noon hour.
A (Continuing) I said, Mr. Prosecutor, that it is possible that among these orders and regulations that were received this one was included and it passed through my hands.
THE PRESIDENT: The question, is, did you ever hear of it?
THE WITNESS: Yes, in the circle of our families we discussed views with regard to matrimony.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, no no.
THE WITNESS: And the birth of illegitimate children.
THE PRESIDENT: We are not talking about illegitimate children. We are talking about Himmler. Did you ever know that Himmler had issued an order advocating, advising unmarried women to submit themselves to soldiers going to the front for the purpose of having children? Did you ever know that?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I said I knew of Himmler's views in that matter. I have said that before, that we discussed this within the circle of our families.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the answer is then that you heard about Himmler's order?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Even though you didn't agree with it.
THE WITNESS: It is quite certain that I didn't agree with it. If I have to do it I can bring proof of that today, just how strict and severe I was in family matters with regard to officers and administrative officers.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, for a General in the SS there seems to be quite a number of principles in the SS with which you did not -
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Robbins, I think we have bypassed Dr. Haensel. Do you wish to make an objection?
DR. HAENSEL: I only wanted to point out the following: This terminology, this matter of speaking which is used in the speeches and decrees by Himmler, and which he has expressed there, and which the witness is to recall now, cannot be understood if the terminology first has to be translated into the English, if it is translated into English and then it is translated again into German, which is a completely different German than Himmler meant, today. I believe that the witness cannot recall these things if they are translated to him again. He could perhaps recall if the text by Himmler could be shown to him. I also would suggest, if the prosecution wants to refer to the Himmler orders, he should submit the text in German, the original text. The German language, like the English language, is manifold, and there are many different dialects.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Mr. Robbins has said that he will try to bring a copy of the original decree, and then perhaps you can make something else out of an unmarried mother.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, is your recollection any better today than it was yesterday as to the exact date when you were changed with the operation of Amtsgruppe A?
A I maintain that this must have been in May or in June of 1944.
Q I noticed with a good deal of interest that you told your counsel yesterday, without being asked, that you were interrogated and mentioned the exact date, 19th of October, 1946, which is exactly correct, as to the date when you were first interrogated in the Nurnberg jail. Now is it that you can -
A No, that is not the date when I was interrogated for the first time.
Q That is what you told us yesterday.
AAlready in the case before the Internation Military Tribunal I had to state my data. The defendants were not even here at that time, and we did not even think of a trial of the WVHA at that time, at least I was not thinking of it at that time. I had to state my exact and precise personal data furthermore in the compound in the prisoner's camp, prisoners' camp of the American Third Army.
Q That makes it even more interesting that it was not the first time, but some subsequent time that you were interrogated on the 19th of October, 1946, and that you remembered that exact date. Now, how is it that date impressed itself on you so much, and still you cannot remember the date when you were put in charge of an entire Amtsgruppe under the WVHA? It is a very curious fact to me.
A. I can give you exact facts.
Q. Please do.
A. When my chief, the chief of Amtsgruppe A, was transferred to the police, Pohl repeatedly stressed the fact that this was only a temporary detachment and that Frank would return. The position in the Amtsgruppe was to be reserved for him. He was only to be detached on temporary basis. The task of Frank in the regular police, however, was so important, and furthermore, I believe that I can recall from Frank's statements that he himself did not even want to return under Pohl. He was not interested in doing so.
Q. In view of this statement perhaps you can tell us--
A. I shall refer to that period of time in a minute.
Q. Just a moment. Perhaps you can tell us who was chief of Amtsgruppe A, or who acted as chief of Amtsgruppe A during the period from the 1st of September, 1942, to May or June, 1944.
A. I have already stated that we as office chiefs would usually directly approach Pohl for inquiries or discussions. In the formal sense Frank still was the chief of the Amtsgruppe. However, it was so difficult for us to reach him, and consequently, without first having a discussion with Frank, we would see Pohl directly on certain letters and correspondence. Pohl would write the remark, for discussion with the particular chief of the office.
Q. So Frank actually kept this position even after - as chief of Amtsgruppe A - even after he took his position with the police?
A. In the formal sense, yes.
Q. And that condition--
A. However, he did not occupy a desk in our office and did not have an office there anymore.
Q. He was still chief of Amtsgruppe A up until the time you were charged with those responsibilities?
A. Yes, I believe that is also shown in his statements and in his own testimony which he made in front of an interrogator. They also stated that he was on detached service until July, and detached service does not mean he was transferred from the agency.
Q. I am not sure what he told the interrogator, but I am certain that is not what he told us here on the stand. Now, referring to your affidavit, which is in Document Book II, rather Book I -- you have that before you?
A. I, I don't, (handed to witness) Yes, I have it now.
Q. You told us that the last two paragraphs in your affidavit are not true, is that right?
A. What last paragraphs are you referring to?
Q. Let's first take the last paragraph -- Tschentscher handled the food supplies for concentration camp guards. I understood you to say that, although you swore to this statement at the time, it is not true. Did I misunderstand you?
A. I stated that I could not swear to it under oath from my own knowledge, in the presence of the attorney Dr. Rauschenbach when in the suggested discussion--
Q. I am not talking about the discussion. You can answer this question very shortly. The last paragraph - is it true, or is it not true as it stands? I am just trying to find out what is true in your affidavit.
A. What paragraph are you referring to? What particular paragraph are you referring to?
Q. The last paragraph that consists of one sentence: Standartenfuehrer Tschentscher handled food supplies for the entire Waffen SS, as well as for the guards for the concentration camps.
A. Yes, I know about that. I knew that from my personal knowledge.
Q. All right. Now, let's take the previous paragraph about Georg Doerner. Is that true or is it false?
A. I have already stated that according to my knowledge that was an assumption which I could make, that is to say, there must have been an agency which would have negotiated as the higher agency, and the ex pression "on the top level", which has been discussed so much yesterday, was added from the conclusion of Dr. Rauschenbach, my attorney, who said -- well, somebody must have been there who carried out the negotiations, and then I was also of the opinion and I said yes, I think so too, from the point of view of the work, this must have been so.
I once more pointed out literally I could not swear to it as a fact, and now I would like to point out the following: Mr. Orthmann showed as a record from the 19th of October--
JUDGE PHILLIPS: We heard that yesterday in detail, and he has gone over the same thing again and it took him about thirty minutes yesterday, and counsel's examination, his own counsel, and counsel for Goerg Loerner, and in substance, after thirty minutes' talk he said this: That he and the man who took the affidavit, the interrogator, agreed that they would add "the top level" and that would be about right, but now he says he doesn't think this of this affidavit, that it is an assumption on his part, and that it is not true as stated in part of the affidavit. So, there is no use of going over that again.
MR. ROBBINS: You are quite right, Your Honor.
Q. Now, let's take a look at the third paragraph from the last; that wasn't discussed yesterday. Amtsgruppe A, or rather Office 4, under Standartenfuehrer Vogt, had to check up at random on all expenditures of the individual Amtsgruppen within the WVHA, with the exception of Amtsgruppen C and W, and you were Vogt's superior, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it also right that Oberfuehrer Hans Loerner became your deputy for Amtsgruppe A in October 1944?
A. In the formal sense, as senior officer, yes. However, as far as I can recall, no official appointment took place.
Q. Is it also true, just as it appears in your affidavit just above "page 4 of the original" --
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Is it necessary to go through this part by part? Is it necessary to have it affirmed once again when it has already been sworn to and accepted as a fact?
MR. ROBBINS: If Your Honor please, this is last point I have, and his testimony on this point was very obscure to me yesterday.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I see.
Q. Department II dealt with the personnel files of the administration officers, both of Amtsgruppen B, C, and W, and of those of the administration officers of Amtsgruppe D and the troop units, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I direct your attention for a moment to the budgetary matters of Amtsgruppe A. I must say that from your testimony yesterday I have a very obscure picture of what you were trying to tell us. Would you tell us as simply as possible what part in the financial affairs, the monetary affairs, of the concentration camp Amtsgruppe A played; and first, confine yourself to the period before May, 1944, and secondly, after May, 1944, when you became chief of Amtsgruppe A.
A. I regret that I cannot describe to you the things before the time of May 1944 from my own personal knowledge. I did not know exactly how the details were handled. At the time I worked in my personnel office from morning until night and my time was completely filled up, and even on Sundays there was so much work to do that I could not worry about what happened in A-1, A-2, A-3, and A-4. There was no reason for me to do so. I can in no way give you any information about just how the details were handled.
Q. So, although you were deputy chief of the Amtsgruppe A during that period of time, prior to May, 1944, you cannot, from your own knowledge, or from your having seen the correspondence in the office, or conversations with other members of Amtsgruppe A, tell us anything about the financial connection between Amtsgruppe A and the concentration camps?
A. No, after all the correspondence went out apart from my hands; I did not receive any knowledge of it.
Q. All right. Then tell us the complete story after May, 1944.
A. I believe that I have expressed myself very clearly about this matter yesterday.
Q. Now, don't give us the whole operations of Amtsgruppe A; just tell us what, at what point of contact, what point of contact there was with the concentration camps.
A. Points of contact existed formally according to existing regulations, in examinations or in spot tests, which were carried out either by the auditing office or by the auditing court. They were carried out in accordance with existing regulations.
Q What kind of examinations are you talking about?
A I am referring to auditing of bills.
Q And what kind of bills are you talking about?
A I am referring to bills which went to the treasures, and we had to make spot tests. That is exactly how I expressed it in detail.
Q Are these bills which came from the concentration camps through Amtsgruppe D?
A I have already stated that according to the regulations the matter was formally carried out. However, these examinations could not be carried out actually anymore, not only with Amtsgruppe D but with the entire Waffen SS. Amtsgruppe D did not form an exception in this case with regard to the simplification of administration and the discontinuance of auditing.
Q Don't tell me about regulations or the theory. Tell me about the actual contacts, financial and monetary contacts that had with the concentration camps, and if it is your contention that there were none -- just say that there were none.
A I cannot answer the question in this manner. I have just stated that according to the regulations it was done in such-and-such a way, and from my own knowledge I do not know when and where auditing was still carried out. It is impossible for me to know that and I cannot make any statement about it. The auditing office was not located in my agency; it was located outside of my office.
Q Well, it was under you. Didn't you ever talk to Vogt at all after May 1944?
A I have stated that I discussed the matter with Vogt three or four or five times. We talked about the effects of the simplification in the administration and about the results and their effects on the personnel, and about the discontinuance of my agency.
Q You told us about the regulations that existed for auditing. You have also said that you don't know how many audits were made. I am asking you now, if you know whether any audits at all were made.
A Well, I did not receive any detailed knowledge. Of course, our auditing was still being carried on.
Q After May 1944?
A Yes. The 3, 4, 5, or 6 administrative officers which had remained there, of course, continued to close out the matters which were being dealt with, and they would submit these things to the auditing court and the agency concerned.
Q And these were audits of bills which came from the concentration camps?
A That escapes my knowledge entirely. I don't know what bills we are concerned with here, with two hundred or two hundred fifty treasuries -- an estimate -- and all of this referred to some time before that, and, individually, only on-the-spot tests were made.
Q These "flying" or on-the-spot tests were made of the bills in Amtsgruppe D. You know that don't you?
A With bills of Amtsgruppe D?
Q Yes. You heard Frank explain that. I am trying to find out now what you knew from your own knowledge.
A I have already stated that flying checks were made.
Q And they were made of the bills of Amtsgruppe D?
A I don't know that, individually, where the auditing was carried out.
Q I didn't ask you where; I am asking you what bills.
A Well, whenever bills were submitted; whenever auditing was carried out.
Q From Amtsgruppe D?
A I don't know that. I don't know in detail if they worked on them or if Vogt sent one person or another directly to some place. I want to point out something in addition which has not been discussed yet at all; that the official trips had been limited to the utmost.
Q Now I am not confining the question to Vogt personally at all. I am asking you about the office of audits, A-4. You know, don't you, that A-4 made spot - or flying checks of the bills, expenses, which came from Amtsgruppe D.
A No; I didn't know that. I didn't know what tests were made in individual cases.
Q You knew that the regulations provided for that?
A Yes.
Q And you knew that the regulations provided for flying - or spot checks of the bills of the concentration camps by A-4?
A I don't know if this was to be done by A-4 or the auditing court. That was discussed before my time. At my time all these matters were discontinued, and I don't know in the individual cases where the examinations were made and what was being examined there.
Q Well, what bills did you think that Amtsgruppe D dealt with, if it weren't the bills of the concentration camps?
A I didn't say that they weren't bills from the concentration camps. Of course, Amtsgruppe D dealt with bills from the concentration camps -- or the treasuries of the concentration camps. It is done the same way today in every internment camp; well, bills accumulate there also.
Q Then you were pretty certain, weren't you, since the regulations provided that A-4 made spot - or flying checks of Amtsgruppe D bills - and Amtsgruppe D's bills consisted of bills from the concentration camps; and that A-4 followed out some of the regulations, that A-4 made checks of bills from concentration camps? You were pretty certain of that, weren't you?
A I was not certain of that. I did not know if this auditing was carried out. No reports were submitted to me about it.
Q Are you pretty certain of it today?
A That has not become evident from any document. I just don't know.
Q Would you say that it is probable?
A I believe that assumptions do not constitute personal knowledge.
Q Yesterday, in answer to a question put to you by Georg Loerner's attorney, you said that you were responsible for all monetary matters at the top level and that if anything had gone wrong, "I would have been responsible." That applies to your supervision over the bills of Amtsgruppe D, doesn't it, and the funds handled by Amtsgruppe D?
A I believe there is no doubt of that with regard to the responsibility. It is always so in the military service: that the superior officer is responsible for things which were done under his supervision. Of course it is important whether he caused these things to be carried out or whether he had any knowledge of them. It is always so when something goes wrong; it always comes from the top level until it comes to the lowest subordinate, until it comes down to the person who has happened to do something wrong.
Q Well, I think it is fairly clear about the duties of A-4. Now, let us turn for a moment to the duties of A-1 and A-2, which concerned budget, finance and payroll. I would like to ask you about a hypothetical question. Suppose that the administrative officers -well, let us go back a little further. Suppose concentration camp Dachau was in need of 50,000 gloves for its inmate workers. First, who would report this need, and to whom would it be reported?
A That probably would have been the top superior agency, if they would not have any in the camp.
Q Well, there was an administrative officer in the camp. It would have been reported to him, wouldn't it?
A Yes, it would have been reported to the administrative officer.
Q And then the administrative officer would put in requisition, a request, to whom would he go to obtain these gloves. Would it have been to Amtsgruppe B? Wouldn't it?
A No.
Q Where would it go?
A To Amtsgruppe D.
Q And then where would it go?
A From there, if Amtsgruppe D had things at this disposal, these things would be delivered. And if they had no stock on hand anymore, they would make a request to Amtsgruppe B.
Q And then they would be delivered to the administrative official. Now, this material had to be paid for. What happened? Did the administrative official write a check on the Reichsbank?
A No, the administrative officer didn't have to pay for that. The clothing was not paid for by the administrative officer.
Q Well, there must have been a credit entered in the books somewhere. Just tell us what bookkeeping arrangements were carried out at that point.
A I have already stated that the Reich Treasuries, like treasuries all over the Reich, met their vital requirements from the Reichsbank, or with the next main treasury of the Wehrmacht.
I don't know if this was done every ten days or once a month. That was either done in one way or another.
Q I am sorry I don't understand your answer. Would you tell us again what bookkeeping entries, arrangements, were made at this point? I will try to concentrate.
A Well, I did not see any individual books from the concentration camps, and I have not seen any individual bills. I can only say that, and I can only assume that it was done in the same manner as in the former military administration which I had.
Q And you want us to believe that on no purchase that was made for the concentration camps after May, 1944, on no purchase of Office A-1 or A-2 had anything to do with it, had any notification whatever, and that Amtsgruppe A was completely by-passed on it? On these financial dealings?
A I didn't say that.
Q Well, what -- Just tell us what contacts A-1 and A-2 had.
AAll I said was that I don't know if any such case occurred. That is what I said. We did not -- our office did not -- have any -thing to do anymore with the allotment of funds. If they received knowledge of any individual case, A-1, or A-2, that I don't know. If this was the case, well, I was chief of the Amtsgruppe. Although I was chief of the Amtsgruppe, I certainly couldn't be informed of everything that happened; no troop commander or regimental commander could do that.
THE PRESIDENT: Let us put on the gloves after lunch.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until one-forty-five.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)