Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Every SS-man must be deeply imbued with the sense of the National Socialist movement."
In spite of the rigid standards of the SS with regard to these policies you were still able to conceal your criticism which you say you expressed openly. Is that right?
A I knew these pamphlets. Nevertheless, I maintain that I did not advocate what I regarded as exagerated measures against the Jewish race; an attitude against the Jewish race existed--and I admit that. I shared that attitude as regards non-Germans, people who had reached Germany later on. I read once more in the papers today that the Jewish people not yet have a home of their own, which surely should happen now, after these problems have existed for several centuries throughout the world. At last, things should settle down by giving the Jewish people, the Jewish race, as a people, a home of their own as it exists for other nations. Then these personal things will no longer apply.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q I cannot refrain. There were a good many million Jews who had homes of their own in the East, and the Germans uprooted them from their homes and forced them to leave their homes and come to Germany--where you did not want them, and where you say they were enemies of the State. Why did you import millions of Jews into Germany, take them away from their homes and bring them here, where you despised them?
A As I said before, I knew nothing about the fact that the Jews were brought to Germany. All I knew was that they were interned in Czechoslovakia and Theresienstadt, and, later on, in several cities in the East, of which I heard in conversations or public announcements, such as Litzmannstadt also. There were other regions in the East as well. I myself went through these only with my division, and, therefore, I do not know of any details in the villages or districts in that part of the country.
Q Well, you do know that the concentration camps in Germany Court No, II, Case No. 4.were filled with Eastern Jews, don't you?
Don't you know that?
A No; what inmates concentration camps had in detail or by percentages, I did not know.
Q Well, you were in favor of limiting the activities of the Jews in Germany, weren't you? I am using your own words.
A Yes, indeed. Limitation of professional activities in accordance with the percentage of population. That was the view I advocated already at the time.
Q Well, were you concerned with limiting the activities of the Jews in Poland and the Ukraine and Russia?
A I know nothing about conditions there. I did not know what happened there.
Q Well, we will determine that later. But I ask you again whether you were concerned with limiting the activities of the Jews outside of Germany.
A I had nothing to do with that myself.
Q Right! It was none of your business, was it?
A No.
Q So that if limiting the activities of the Jews in Poland involved murdering a number of millions of them, that wasn't carrying any German national policy, was it?
A I know all these things today: that it was a policy, and that extermination was carried out. But at that time I did not know, nor did I know that there was a secret oath as it was called, and collective family responsibility. I was never demanded anything of the sort. In '38 I gave a Soldier's Oath and after that I gave no other oath at all.
Q Well, you said that you thought it was all right to lock up enemies of the State to prevent sabotage and espionage, to protect Germany?
A Yes.
Q It was not necessary to imprison enemies of the State in Court No. II, Case No. 4.Poland and Russia and the Ukraine, was it, in order to protect Germany?
A Those were occupied territories--as we are an occupied territory today. Therefore, security had to be provided from a purely military point of view.
Q Oh, don't deceive yourself, sir. The extermination of the Jews took place while the fighting was going on, long before you had established German sovereignty. The extermination of the Jews began immediately the German troops entered these other countries and while resistance was still going on.
A Yes; but that was, for us, occupied territory and, therefore, automatically after the fighting there was the sector of the front and there was a demarcation line. And as a field unit went through this demarcation line the task of the civilian administration would start in the rear territory.
Q Well, your definition of an Enemy of the State is anyone who dared to disagree with National Socialism, isn't that true?
A No; only he who somehow or other makes propaganda, undermining, favoring spies, or other offenses as enemy of the State or the people.
Q Well, don't you know--and it is incredible if you don't-that thousands of people were sent to concentration camps for just the merest casual criticism of National Socialism? Didn't you hear one of them testify from the chair that you are sitting in?
A Yes; I heard that testimony, and I knew it too that whenever, in wartime, there was open criticism or that things were criticized in a derogatory manner in the view of the Government these things, including listening to enemy broadcasts, in passing on of views were things that had to be punished.
Q Mere difference of opinion was sufficient to bring about imprisonment, wasn't it?
A I believe you must draw the line somewhere here.
Q You draw the line!
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Yes; in what manner and to what intention these things were done; details, Mr. President, precise details what would be punishable and what would not be: all that I know nothing about. These are purely police affairs.
Q Well, how high do we have to go in the SS organization to find somebody who did know something about these many unspeakable things? How high does the official have to be before he begins to know something about the things that the SS did? You didn't know anything about it. Pohl didn't know anything about it--- How much higher do we have to go to find somebody who did not?
A I beg your pardon, Mr. President. I don't believe that it has anything to do with the rank and position. An NCO in the SS who has orders of that sort might easily know in great detail, whereas a full general, or the highest Gruppenfuehrer, for instance, my commanding officer, Hausser, knew not a thing, and he was the second-highest rank in position in the SS altogether.
Q And I venture to say that if Himmler were sitting in your chair now he would say that he knew nothing about it, that we would have to go beyond him. That is merely conjecture.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, did you ever find out that the SS was not a purely military organization?
A Yes, of course; originally it originated from a political party, and even before the war there was the distinction between the General SS and the Military SS.
Q So it is not--and you were a member of the Allgemeine SS-entirely true that you concerned yourself only with military affairs and with no political affairs?
A I beg your pardon, but I believe I said so on direct examination by my counsel quite clearly that I was a member of the Allgemeine SS until March of 1938; that my tasks was administrative rather than anything else, and I had no political activity to perform.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Let us say that I was busy in the local group of the party or any other party agency. Within the party organization in the SS I was an administrative official. I don't think I need mention what sort of service we did in the SS. What we did and what we did in order to make our young men strong and efficient, was just the same as other parties did.
Q And so you became a general in the SS without carrying on any political activity whatever?
A. Yes, I became a General of the Waffen SS not on the basis of my political activity, I believe, but on the basis of the fact that I was the most senior divisional administrative official. I would like to say that when I was promoted to colonel this happened at the suggestion of my divisional commander when I had left the division and it was made known to me that I was to be the administrative officer of the corps.
Q. When you joined the WVHA in 1942, you knew what kind of tasks Amtsgruppe C, which was a part of that organization, carried on, didn't you?
A. Yes, of course, in accordance with the organizational chart which I saw.
Q. And you knew that Amtsgruppe C was engaged in carrying out giant construction programs with the use of slave labor, did you not?
A. I did not know who were used for these tasks.
Q. You didn't know that Amtsgruppe C employed any concentration camp inmates? Did I understand you correctly?
A. After I joined the WVHA, yes.
Q. How long did it take you to find you?
A. That didn't take me very long, four five, or eight weeks.
Q. Four or five days, wasn't it? Where did you think Kammler got all of the laborers for his giant armament programs and his giant construction programs. Did you think they came from the East or did you think that they were free German laborers?
A. I did not know anything of giant construction tasks in February of 1942. I knew nothing about giant construction tasks and I had not been transferred to Amtsgruppe C in order to know all about it. In the first four or five days I was transferred to Office Group A.
Q. I understand. So it took you four or five weeks before you found out that Amtsgruppe C used concentration camp inmates in its construction program?
A. I cannot say whether it was three, four, five, six, or seve weeks.
That would be quite impossible.
Q. It wasn't longer than that, was it?
A. No, I heard about it in three or four weeks, perhaps, or six weeks.
Q. And when you joined the WVHA in February, 1942, you knew what kind of tasks Amtsgruppe W carried out, did you not?
A. Only from the point of view of the organizational chart, because, as I said before, I regarded it as a purely economic -
Q. How long did it take you to find out that Amtsgruppe W operated giant economic industries, stone quarries, with the use of concentration camp inmates?
A. These giant enterprises under its direction, I did not know how big they were actually. I knew there were a great number of them, and that there were a great many enterprises in the East from the organizational chart.
Q. And that they used concentration camp inmates -- when did you learn that? Well, you knew where they were located.
A. No, I did not know the individual locations.
Q. When did you first learn that they used inmates?
A. I knew that inmates were used there, in the economic enterprises.
Q. When you joined the WVHA?
A. That they did work in armament industries and other equipment work-shops in concentration camps, I knew all that in 1938, or 1939, or 1940, in any case, before the War.
Q. When did you first hear that concentration camp inmates were worked to death in these industries under W and under D, did you ever hear that during the War?
A. I heard that in Nurnberg, or by the press before.
Q. And that is the first thing you ever heard about it, isn't it?
A. Of these labor conditions, yes. I never visited a stone quarry or any other enterprises where a large number of inmates worked.
Q. And you never heard during the war or any other time before the end of the war, did you, that these people who were worked by Amtsgruppe C and Amtsgruppe W were undernourished and underclothed?
A. I only heard that here, yes.
Q. When Amtsgruppe D was incorporated into the WVHA a few months after you joined it, you knew what kind of tasks it carried out, didn't you?
A. According to the organizational chart, I knew that they were the Inspectorate of the concentration camps.
Q. You knew that prior to that time it had been the Inspectorate?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew that it was in charge of administering the concentration camps and allocating labor?
A. Allocation of labor, I did not know; I knew they were dealing with the administration of concentration camps, but the procuring of labor, for instance, that they were alleged to have anything to with that, I heard here in this trial.
Q. Who did you think allotted the concentration camp labor. Did that question ever occur to you?
A. I don't know what you mean by "allotting." Do you mean that concentration camp inmates were drawn into the enterprises?
Q. Well, you knew that there was an office under Amtsgruppe D called "Inmate Labor Commitments", didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know that shortly after the Inspectorate was incorporated into the WVHA Pohl issued an order saying that the concentration camps thereafter would be run on a new or modified theory and that thereafter labor allocation, utilization of labor, would be the extreme value and that there would be no limit to working hours and the work would be, in the true sense of the word, exhaustive?
A. Of these measures regarding exhaustive labor, I knew quite a bit generally, in that respect; we ourselves had the most severe phase.
We were expected, ourselves, to do this in our offices to such an extent even that we were not really very delighted with these long hours of work.
Q. You said you knew quite a bit about the exhaustive working conditions. Does that apply to the concentration camps?
A. That I took as a matter of course, that concentration camp inmates had to work under the same conditions as other workers and that they were working under especially poor conditions or that orders existed to that effect, I did not know.
Q. You didn't hear that there would be a new theory of concentration camp administration after Pohl took over the Inspectorate and it was incorporated into the organization, of which you were a part?
A. Yes, of course, I said that Office Group D was incorporated and was under Pohl. If a divisional commander received a new anti-aircraft regiment into its unit, for instance, the division does not become an anti-aircraft division altogether. An infantry division remains an infantry division. That was a purely personal incorporation and subordination.
Q. And you knew, did you not, that the people who were in the concentration camps under Amtsgruppe D, the people who were worked by Amtsgruppe C and Amtsgruppe W, were those same people that you have told us about being thrown into concentration camps for merely critizing the Government or because they belonged to a particular race? You knew that, didn't you?
A. After what directives they were sent to the camp, whether they were directives you just mentioned, I do not know. As I said before, I knew that all of those who somehow or other had offended against the rules and regulations of war from a police point of view they had to be put into a safe place. They had to be interned and thereby came into concentration camps. Some of those were sent to concentration camps even by judicial authorities.
Q. You knew that these people who were in the camps under Amtsgruppe D and that they were employed in the industries under Amtsgruppe W and in the construction tasks under Amtsgruppe C?
A. Yes, that was known to me.
MR. ROBBINS: Would this be a convenient time to recess, if it please the Tribunal.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess for 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Robbins, before you begin your cross examination, in two or three of your questions you indicated that the defendant had on occasion publicly condemned anti-Semitic excesses. Now, I did not gain the impression that he had every publicly done so. He had at the home of his sister-in-law and in private conversations expressed his vigorous disapproval of some of these excesses, but I am not aware that at any public function or in any public way he so expressed himself. I would like to get that clear.
MR. ROBBINS: I very possibly misunderstood the witness.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, is His Honor's statement of your testimony correct?
A. I did not quite clearly understand the question in the translation.
Q. Did you at any time openly and publicly criticize the Nazi Party program?
A. I did not criticize it in public. I criticized it within the circle of my friends.
Q. Witness, in addition to the so-called racial groups in the concentration camps, racial groups who were incarcerated in the concentration camps, you also knew that there were other groups of inmates, such as the Bible Research Workers, did you not?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And Jehova's Witnesses?
A. They are the same as you just mentioned.
Q. This is called "Bibelforscher"?
A. Yes. They are also known as Bibelforscher.
Q. You also knew that another group consisted of trade union members, did you not?
A. Trade union people?
Q. Yes, labor unions.
A. No.
Q. You did not know that groups of trade union people were incarcerated in the concentration camps?
A. What groups you refer to, if these were trade union people, I don't know anything about it. I knew that they were political enemies before and after 1933. However, I don't know what individual groups were included in the concentration camps and who, individually, were sent there.
Q. Did you ever find out that trade union members were sent to concentration camps, even up until today?
A. It may be that I have read about it somewhere, but I cannot recall any particular details.
Q. You also knew, did you not, that prisoners of war were incarcerated in concentration camps?
A. I did not know that about prisoners of war, unless they were sent there through certain decrees or violations of decrees which were issued. To what extent this applied to Russian prisoners of war I did not know either. It may be possible that Russian prisoners of war were transferred for some reason or other and were committed to concentration camps.
Q. It is not only possible, it is highly probably. You know that today for a fact?
A. I know it today, yes.
Q. When did you first find out about it?
A. I say I know it today from the documents and that I considered it possible at the time.
Q. What decrees were you talking about when you said that some prisoners of war were sent to concentration camps by decree?
A. Well, I said I did not know any details. Perhaps because they had committed some offenses, or perhaps some other directives. I don't know the regulations in detail which caused them to be transferred to concentration camps. If I ever obtained knowledge of any particular case through the press or through my correspondence or through passing orders -- which is possible -- this was not any particularly official point, so that I would still remember this today, or so that it would have remained in my memory from that time.
Q. How many inmates did you think were incarcerated in the concentration camps when you came to the WVHA, let's say by April 1942, when the Inspectorate was incorporated into the concentration camps?
A. I cannot give you any figure. It is very difficult for me to give you any number at all. I did not know how much personnel was located within the individual concentration camps. If I should make an estimate, then I could not draw any conclusions for all the concentration camps on the whole.
Q. I am not talking about military or civilian personnel. I am talking about inmates. You heard Pohl say here on the stand that 600,000 people, according to his estimate, were in concentration camps in 1944. Can you give us any idea as to the number of inmates that you would have estimated in 1942?
A. I cannot give you any figure whatsoever. When I entered the agency, I was completely new in that field, and I had no previous knowledge.
Q. Did you think that all of the people who had been sent to concentration camps had been given a hearing?
A. Yes, I believed that; in all cases I believed that they had at least been interrogated, if they were not given a trial.
Q. Did you think that they had all been given a trial?
A. Yes, in all cases.
Q. What kind of a trial did you think they had been given, and by whom?
A. Well, at least the denunciation had to be there, or a record must have been made that the person had committed such and such a crime or that in certain points and laws, military security measures and regulations and police security measures, he had committed some sort of offense.
Q. That was usually the extent of the trial, wasn't it, just what you have described?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever see a protective custody order, witness?
A. No, I don't know anything about them.
Q. When one of your relatives was sent to a concentration camp, didn't you see the protective custody order?
A. No. I stated that I heard the first news from my relative himself, and then afterwards I first of all contacted the police president by telephone in order to find out exactly what was going on.
Q. How many people did you know personally who were sent to a concentration camp?
A. I know for certain that two people were sent there.
Q. And you did not see the protective custody order in either case?
A. No.
Q. Were you told what the protective custody order contained?
A. No, I did not know anything about the contents of such an order.
Q. You do not know even today that all the protective custody order states is "Suspicion of activities toward the State"? You never heard about that?
A. I don't know anything about it.
Q. We'll pass on to another subject, witness. You were a member of the Lebensborn, were you not?
Q Can you tell us what the Lebensborn stood for?
A The Lebensborn was a registered society. It was financed by fees and contributions of members, of all SS members whose membership in the SS was their main profession. That is, people had to pay a certain fee in accordance with their rank, and according to their income, and according to their number of children, or their family status.
Q You also knew, didn't you, Witness, that this organization was designed to promote the birth of illegitimate children?
A No. I myself am the father of four children, and I didn't know of any such institution or any such purpose.
Q You didn't take any part in the sterilization program either with which the WVHA was connected?
A No. I didn't even know anything about it.
Q. Let me read to you an order of Himmler concerning the Lebensborn, and see what he has to say. This is the 13th of September, 1936, Himmler's order entitled "Foundation of the Organization Lebensborn, E.V." "The question of multiplicity of children is not a private affair of the individual, but his duty toward his ancestors and of the people." And his order on the 28th of October, 1939, directed to the SS, published in the SS manual. "The Soldier's Friend," --
DR. VON STAKELBERG: I would like to object to the reading from a book here. The Prosecutor has not stated what book he is reading from. He has not said what authentic sources, how authentic the sources are for the statements made in this book.
MR. ROBBINS: Counsel is quite right. The order that I have just read from was in evidence before the Internation Military Tribunal as Document 2825-PS, contained in an official publication of the I. M. T. called "Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression," and the order of Himmler of 28 October, 1929, which I am about to read from, is from the same document.
THE WITNESS: On the 28th of October, 1929?
MR. ROBBINS: 1939.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Himmler ordered, "Though in other times it may perhaps be considered an infraction of necessary social standards and conventions, German women and children of good blood can fulfill a high obligation by bearing children out of wedlock to soldiers going to the front." You never heard about this?
A I don't understand the sense of that statement.
Q Perhaps I should read it to you again. "German women and children of good blood can fulfill a high obligation by bearing children out of wedlock to soldiers going to the front." You didn't bear about this? It was in a pamphlet distributed to the SS.
A Of children out of wedlock?
Q That is what Himmler said.
A I don't know of this individual phrase in this decree. I know that several of our women had their own views with regard to the sort of matrimony they wanted and to bear illegitimate children.
Q I am just asking you about the views of the Lebensborn. You didn't know that this was their policy, is that correct?
A The Lebensborn maintained the point of view, the Lebensborn had been established in order to help women who did not dispose of any funds, and to make it easier for them to have children on the basis of a general institution where they could give birth to a child under very low-priced and favorable conditions. The same thing was to include children which were born out of matrimony. Thus, for example, a girl who was working and who was all alone, and it happens at all times that children out of matrimony are being born, and so that these girls also have this period of time to be taken care of, and that they would find a lodging, and that they would have the possibility to give birth to their children, that is how I regarded the establishment of the Lebensborn. I don't think it was to favor the giving of birth to children out of matrimony, or I don't think it it was to form a degradation of the concepts of matrimony, and I couldn't regard it as such.
I myself was never too high in this world about matrimony, and I myself have had a very happy married life.
Q That is very interesting but it does not answer my question. I asked you if you knew anything about Hitler's order that I read to you - Himmler's order.
A It is quite possible -
DR. HOFFMAN (For the defendant Scheide) Your Honor, I would be very grateful to the Prosecution if perhaps they should give me the number of the second letter. I can't recall that this letter was also submitted to the International Military Tribunal.
MR. ROBBINS: This is the same document as the first, and I will try to bring counsel a copy of it during the noon hour.
A (Continuing) I said, Mr. Prosecutor, that it is possible that among these orders and regulations that were received this one was included and it passed through my hands.
THE PRESIDENT: The question, is, did you ever hear of it?
THE WITNESS: Yes, in the circle of our families we discussed views with regard to matrimony.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, no no.
THE WITNESS: And the birth of illegitimate children.
THE PRESIDENT: We are not talking about illegitimate children. We are talking about Himmler. Did you ever know that Himmler had issued an order advocating, advising unmarried women to submit themselves to soldiers going to the front for the purpose of having children? Did you ever know that?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I said I knew of Himmler's views in that matter. I have said that before, that we discussed this within the circle of our families.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the answer is then that you heard about Himmler's order?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Even though you didn't agree with it.
THE WITNESS: It is quite certain that I didn't agree with it. If I have to do it I can bring proof of that today, just how strict and severe I was in family matters with regard to officers and administrative officers.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, for a General in the SS there seems to be quite a number of principles in the SS with which you did not -
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Robbins, I think we have bypassed Dr. Haensel. Do you wish to make an objection?
DR. HAENSEL: I only wanted to point out the following: This terminology, this matter of speaking which is used in the speeches and decrees by Himmler, and which he has expressed there, and which the witness is to recall now, cannot be understood if the terminology first has to be translated into the English, if it is translated into English and then it is translated again into German, which is a completely different German than Himmler meant, today. I believe that the witness cannot recall these things if they are translated to him again. He could perhaps recall if the text by Himmler could be shown to him. I also would suggest, if the prosecution wants to refer to the Himmler orders, he should submit the text in German, the original text. The German language, like the English language, is manifold, and there are many different dialects.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Mr. Robbins has said that he will try to bring a copy of the original decree, and then perhaps you can make something else out of an unmarried mother.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, is your recollection any better today than it was yesterday as to the exact date when you were changed with the operation of Amtsgruppe A?
A I maintain that this must have been in May or in June of 1944.
Q I noticed with a good deal of interest that you told your counsel yesterday, without being asked, that you were interrogated and mentioned the exact date, 19th of October, 1946, which is exactly correct, as to the date when you were first interrogated in the Nurnberg jail. Now is it that you can -
A No, that is not the date when I was interrogated for the first time.
Q That is what you told us yesterday.
AAlready in the case before the Internation Military Tribunal I had to state my data. The defendants were not even here at that time, and we did not even think of a trial of the WVHA at that time, at least I was not thinking of it at that time. I had to state my exact and precise personal data furthermore in the compound in the prisoner's camp, prisoners' camp of the American Third Army.
Q That makes it even more interesting that it was not the first time, but some subsequent time that you were interrogated on the 19th of October, 1946, and that you remembered that exact date. Now, how is it that date impressed itself on you so much, and still you cannot remember the date when you were put in charge of an entire Amtsgruppe under the WVHA? It is a very curious fact to me.
A. I can give you exact facts.
Q. Please do.
A. When my chief, the chief of Amtsgruppe A, was transferred to the police, Pohl repeatedly stressed the fact that this was only a temporary detachment and that Frank would return. The position in the Amtsgruppe was to be reserved for him. He was only to be detached on temporary basis. The task of Frank in the regular police, however, was so important, and furthermore, I believe that I can recall from Frank's statements that he himself did not even want to return under Pohl. He was not interested in doing so.
Q. In view of this statement perhaps you can tell us--
A. I shall refer to that period of time in a minute.
Q. Just a moment. Perhaps you can tell us who was chief of Amtsgruppe A, or who acted as chief of Amtsgruppe A during the period from the 1st of September, 1942, to May or June, 1944.
A. I have already stated that we as office chiefs would usually directly approach Pohl for inquiries or discussions. In the formal sense Frank still was the chief of the Amtsgruppe. However, it was so difficult for us to reach him, and consequently, without first having a discussion with Frank, we would see Pohl directly on certain letters and correspondence. Pohl would write the remark, for discussion with the particular chief of the office.
Q. So Frank actually kept this position even after - as chief of Amtsgruppe A - even after he took his position with the police?
A. In the formal sense, yes.
Q. And that condition--
A. However, he did not occupy a desk in our office and did not have an office there anymore.
Q. He was still chief of Amtsgruppe A up until the time you were charged with those responsibilities?
A. Yes, I believe that is also shown in his statements and in his own testimony which he made in front of an interrogator. They also stated that he was on detached service until July, and detached service does not mean he was transferred from the agency.