Q Now, Doctor, what clothing was issued to the prisoners?
A The inmates were normally striped clothing in the camp, and also while they were working. They had only that one suit. They had to wear it during working hours and in their time off.
Q And did those clothes become destroyed rather soon because of the type of work?
A The clothing suffered intensely due to their work, particularly when they were working in the mines. Then, of course, if they were carrying out work in the industrial end of it, their clothing were much better. However, as I could see for myself, it was full of oil stains, and the inmates had to walk around in these dirty suits all the time.
Q Was their clothing replaced.
A This clothing was replaced, but after a very long period of time.
Q What sort of shoes did the inmates receive?
A The inmates received wooden soled shoes. The soles were made of wood. The upper part was leather.
Q Did they have any socks?
A Socks were only there to a very limited extent, so that the inmates had to use rages and wrap their feet in them.
Q Did this result in a number of infections in the feet of the inmates?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever complain about the conditions in Dora?
A Yes, I did.
Q To whom did you complain?
A I complained to my immediate office, and that was at a time when we were still under the supervision of Buchenwald. To Dr. Schidlausky Later on I complained in writing to Berlin, to my superior, Dr. Lolling.
Q Did you ever complain to the camp commander at Dora, Ferschner?
A Yes, indeed. Of course. Because I saw him daily, and it was a matter of course.
Q And what reply did you receive to these complaints?
A I received the reply that in these years of the war it was not possible to have certain improvements here and furthermore that it was important in the first place that the construction program be carried out, and in the second place only would these improvements be considered.
Q Well, now, under whose orders did Forschner say that this construction would be pushed irrespective of the conditions under which the inmates worked?
A I did not understand the question.
Q You stated that Forschner and Schidlausky and the other people to whom you complained said that irrespective of the conditions under which the inmates worked, the construction and production work at Dora would have to go forward, it that correct?
A Yes, it is.
Q And who did Forschner tell you had expressed that sentiment, that the work would have to go on in any event?
A. That was Kammler's and Pohl's opinion, and also of the offices in Berlin.
Q. Do you know him, witness?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you see him in this dock over here? If you can't see the dock, you may stand up.
A. (Witness rises) I believe that is the gentleman over there.
Q. Will you indicate his seat, please?
A. He is at the corner, near the entrance.
Q. Is that in the first row?
A. Yes.
MR. McHANEY: I will ask that the record show that the witness properly identified the defendant Pohl.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so indicate.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. We ask, where did you see the defendant Pohl?
A. I was introduced to him during the visit in Dora.
Q. When was that?
A. That must have been in autumn 1944.
Q. And did you try to report the miserable conditions in Dora to Pohl?
A. I did not have the opportunity to do so.
Q. Why not?
A. Pohl came to Dora with a large staff and it was impossible for me to have a conversation with him because right after dinner he left Dora in a hurry. Therefore, it was impossible for me to approach him and deal with these matters.
Q. Did you make any effort to do so?
A. Yes, I did. I was called for dinner especially for that purpose.
Q. Was Dr. Lolling there with Pohl?
A. Not at the time.
Q. Did you ever talk to Lolling about the conditions in the camp?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did Pohl make an inspection of the camp?
A. The inmate camp itself? -- the answer is no. However, he did visit certain construction camps.
Q. Did he not visit the places where the inmates were living and see the conditions under which they were living?
A. All I know is during that tour of inspection he saw the inmates while they were working at their working places -- or at least he must have seen them. If he visited any other camp apart from Dora -and I am speaking about their living places in particular -- I don't know.
Q. Did Kammler visit Camp Dora very often?
A. Kammler was in Dora several times.
Q. And was he informed about the living conditions there?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Witness, I want to get this matter straight. When you submitted complaints about the living conditions there, did you get the response that nobody cared how many inmates died; that the main thing was to get this building project finished?
A. I did not quite understand your question.
Q. I say, when you made complaints about the living conditions in Dora, did you get the response that nobody cared how many inmates died; that the main thing was to get the construction project finished?
A. Generally speaking, that was the general opinion that prevailed there.
A. Is the name Pook familiar to you, witness.
A. Yes.
Q. Who was Pook?
A. Pook was the chief dentist in Office Group (or Amt Group) D.
Q. Now, witness, are you informed about the collection of gold teeth of inmates in concentration camps?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Do you know what was done with the gold from the teeth of deceased inmates?
A. I only know insofar that the gold had to be sent to Berlin.
Q. And to what office was it sent in Berlin?
A. According to my recollection it was sent to Amtsgruppe D-III. However, I do not know who received those teeth because I, myself, had nothing to do with the gold teeth.
Q. Do you know generally whether it was sent to the office of Chief Dentist in Amt D-III?
A. I cannot tell you that for sure.
Q. But you do know that it was sent to Amt D-III?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you see Pook in the defendants' dock?
A (Witness rises) Yes, I do.
Q. Where is he sitting, please?
A. He is sitting right against the wall, and he is third, right next to the door.
Q. Sitting where?
A. In the second row; he is third from the left, near the door.
MR. McHANEY: I will ask that the record show that the witness properly identified the defendant Pook.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so indicate.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Now, witness, when did you leave Dora?
A. That was around Christmas 1944.
Q. And where did you go then?
A. Then I was transferred to Berlin, and from there I was transferred to Gross-Rosen.
Q. And did you ever have any occasion to return to Dora?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When was that?
A. That was towards the end of March 1945.
Q. And on that occasion did you hear anything about an order concerning the destruction of Dora if it was threatened by the Allies?
A. I spent one day in Dora while traveling through there, and on that occasion I met a doctor whom I knew who used to work with me. He told me that the day before there had been a discussion with the commander of the camp of Dora during which occasion an order was issued about how people should behave in that Camp Dora; namely, if the enemy should approach. It said in that order that the inmates were to be led to the tunnels and they had to be gassed there so that they could not come into the enemy's hands alive. However, should that prove impossible, because there was no gas in Dora, then these inmates should be blown up together with the tunnel immediately after having been put in there.
Q. From whom did that order come?
A. At the time I learned that a certain Sturmbannfuehrer Barnewald from Buchenwald had brought the order and that the order had come from Berlin. However, I do not know who actually signed the order.
Q. What was the name of this doctor who told you about this in Dora?
A. His name was Dr. Alfred Kurzke.
Q. Did you know a man by the name of Ackerman in Dora?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was his position?
A. His position was that of clerk in the administration office for the sick.
Q. And Ackerman was an inmate, was he not?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he well-informed as to the conditions in Dora?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Now, Doctor, while you were at Dora, is it not true that they shipped out large numbers of inmates who broke down and were no longer able to work?
A. Well, I don't quite understand that. Do you mean they were shipped out of their working places?
Q. No; you are familiar with invalid transports -- are you not, Doctor?
A. Yes, yes; I know that invalid transports took place.
Q. And where were these invalid transports from Dora sent, do you know?
A. I know of one transport right now which was sent to the Rest Camp Bergen-Belsen.
Q. And, actually, was Bergen-Belsen a Rest- or Recreational Camp, Doctor?
A. I only found out while I was a prisoner of war that it was not a rest camp. At the time, however, I did not know too much about it.
Q Doctor, don't you know now that those persons sent in these invalid transports were in fact exterminated in Bergen-Belsen and in other camps?
A I only learned that now. However, I did not know that at the time.
Q But you do know it now, don't you, Doctor?
A Yes, I do.
Q Where and when did you see the defendant Pook?
A I saw Pook one single time in my life, and that was on the occasion of a show at Dr. Lolling's place in Berlin. On that occasion, I was also introduced to Dr. Pook.
Q Now, Doctor, when you came back to Dora in March 1945, were you able to determine anything about the death rate at that time among the inmates?
AAt my visit at the time Dr. Kurzke and many inmates I spoke to on that occasion. I was told that the living conditions had become very bad again, and that the death rate was immensely high, or had immensely increased.
MR. McHANEY: I have no further questions at this time, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Have the defense counsel arranged the order in which they will cross examine the witness?
DR. SEIDL: Dr. Seidl for the defendant Oswald Pohl. May it please Your Honor, I should appreciate if the Tribunal would agree to the fact that the German defense counsel be allowed to question in the same order that they should appear in the indictment. We have no special arrangement.
THE PRESIDENT: Any plan is agreeable to the defense counsel is agreeable to the Tribunal.
DR. SEIDL: Thank you sir.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, you were a member in the Waffen-SS in 1944?
A Yes, sir.
Q Correction - 1940, and you joined on an honorary basis?
A Yes, sir.
Q What made you join the SS and not to do your duty to the Wehrmacht?
A I joined the Waffen-SS because the Waffen-SS promised me after three months of good service I would be used as a doctor, whereas, in the Wehrmacht I would have had nothing to do but to recruit and would have to do eleven months at the front.
Q I would like to ask you to speak slowly and to make a short pause after every question.
A Yes.
Q At the time you did not think then that you were to belong as a member of a criminal organization, did you?
A No.
Q How did it happen then that you in 1943 became camp commander in - - - I shall repeat the question. How was it then that you in 1943 first became a doctor in the concentration camp at Dachau, and then a doctor in the concentration camp at Dora?
AAfter I was with the troops, that was at the beginning first in the Ersatz Einheiten itself. However, later on I was on the front in Russia, and I was wounded there at Leningrad front, and I was laid up in a hospital for a long period of time, and then I could no longer be used at the frong and I was assigned to the concentration camp.
Q You stated that early during the work in the concentration camp of Dora, that the death rate was very high?
A Yes.
Q That probably is in connection with the fact that at the time the camp was under construction?
A Yes, it was high, that was the reason.
Q However, later on under your supervision the conditions changed there to the better?
A Yes.
Q In the Camp of Dora secret weapons were constructed? Particularly, the "V" weapon?
A Yes.
Q That was in 1944?
A Yes.
Q Is it correct if I say that these weapons were constructed in these subterranean factories due to the fact that it was impossible to work safely on top of the earth, or the surface, due to the Anglo-American Air Raids?
A Yes, I believe that was the reason.
Q Is it true that these attacks actually killed 800,000 to 1,000,000 people at work of the civilian population?
A That is possible.
Q That with this, however, at the time these factories were only working for the armament -- the factories of the camp Dora were constructed in tunnels?
A Yes.
Q You also mentioned the Mittelwerk company?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that the Mittelwerk was not an Akteingesellschaft, a company with limited liability, and the company was under Administrative Speer?
A Yes.
Q You also know that certain officers were responsible for the work done there?
A For the work, yes.
Q You also said before that we had in the foreground the execution of the planned work, and that it was of no concern to anybody that the people died. I ask you now, witness, who gave you that answer at the time?
A I received that answer first of all by Foerster, then by Dr. Lolling, from Dr. Schidlausky, from Pister, the concentration camp commander at Buchenwald at the time, and several times from Kammler.
Q That is sufficient, witness. Is it correct that the tunnels in which these factories were built already existed in a certain part, and that they belonged, to the Economic Research Office of the German Reich?
A Yes.
Q In other words, these tunnels were built up already?
A Yes.
Q How many kilometers was the distance between Dora and Nordhausen?
A I don't quite understand your question. Do you mean of how many from the factory?
Q Yes, from the factory?
A The camp of Dora was one kilometer apart from the entrance to the tunnels.
Q How can you explain the fact that according to your statement you made before it took four hours to march there?
A In my statement I answered it was not the Camp of Dora but one of the subsidiary camps, which was actually a safe distance from the working place, but I did not talk about the Camp of Dora.
Q The automatic heating system was built during the course of the year of 1944?
A Yes.
Q Then one has to draw a conclusion, that the administration inspite of all of the difficulties made plans to facilitate the life of these inmates in the camp?
A I have to answer this question, perfectly speaking, yes, because of the direction of the factory, this actually contributed quite a lot to the amelioration of conditions in the camp.
Q The working time usually elapsed between eleven to twelve hours, wasn't that correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that also the German workers in the German Armament factory had to work from ten to twelve hours a day, and sometimes even more?
A Yes.
Q I shall come now to the point which has something to do with the food in the camp. The civilian population in our occupational zone has in this period received one-hundred fifty grams of meat per week in this period. Do you have the impression - -
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, I think it is quite proper for defense counsel to interrogate the witness about the amount of food that the prisoners were fed at Dora, and he can exhaust that subject to any extent he desires, but I must rise to object to any comparison which he now intends to present as to food rationed out to Germans in the occupied zone now, whether under control of American Government or the German Government, it is quite immaterial and irrelevant.
THE PRESIDENT: I can not anticipate that is what he is going to ask. Perhaps he won't.
MR. McHANEY: That is what I understand his question to be. He was now stating the question, "Do you know that the German people are issued one-hundred fifty grams of meat."
THE PRESIDENT: I think that offers a comparison. I think that would be proper for an inquiry. You are alleging in the indictment a condition, that is, you are alleging a hardship that existed in a concentration camp among inmates that should meet some standard of hardship, and we need a standard from which it can be judged. I think the inquiry may be pursued.
MR. McHANEY: Very well, Your Honor, we will see how it develops.
BY DR. SIEDL:
Q Now witness, on the basis of your recollection, can you tell me how much meat the inmates received there per week, that is, approximately?
AAt the upmost, fifty grams.
Q How much fat did they receive per week?
A The inmates received according to my recollection approximately one-hundred twenty grams of fat.
Q One-hundred grams of fat per week?
A Yes.
Q How much bread do you say they received per week?
A They received one-third of bread; in other words, approximately 330 grs. per day.
Q In other words, that is more than four pounds, considerably more than four pounds?
THE PRESIDENT: What was the answer?
DR. SEIDL: He nodded, Your Honor.
Q Now, witness, I am sure you wanted to answer that question with "Yes", did you not?
A Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You din't indicate what period, however.
DR. SEIDL: He said that per day these inmates received 330 grs. of bread.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Let's shorten this. You summed up by saying that amounted to over four pounds, but you did not add for what period.
DR. SEIDL: I answered before -
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Don't tell me what you answered before.
DR. SEIDL: Per week.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: All right, per week. Go ahead.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q You furthermore stated that, in your opinion, a normal consumer, a normal human being who does not work, needs at least 2,000 calories per day.
A I said 2,400.
Q 2,400. In other words, you would say that a human being who gets only 850 calories or 1,550 calories is not in a position to live much longer?
A Not at all.
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, I intend now to show the witness a document. This document is in Document Book 5 of the Prosecution, Document NO 2132. It is on Page 135 of the German Document Book.
This is a decree of the Reich Minister of Food and Agriculture, dated 7 April 1942. I shall quote from Number I-1, "Rations for judicial prisoners, inmates of concentration camps and for prisoners detained in police prisons." I shall skip the first two paragraphs (a) and (b), and shall quote from (c):
"The fat, bread and flour rations to be issued in accordance with my decree of 16 January 1940 -- II c 2-948, with reference to 1 b, d and h, have been determined as follows:
Fats, total amount 170 gr.
Either Margarine 130 gr.
or Salad oil 104 gr.
Suet 40 gr.
or Lard 32 gr.
Bread 2450 gr.
Rye flour of type 1790 75 gr.
Bread flour of type 2300 50 gr.
"d. The other rations remain unchanged."
I ask you now, Witness, do you believe that these rations are sufficient to keep a prisoner who does not work too hard alive?
A I would have to see the average calorie figure per day in order to answer that question, namely, what that amounts to per day.
THE PRESIDENT: Can some one tell us what the date of this Exhibit is? It is not complete on this document that we have. It is Berlin, 7 April.
DR. SEIDL: 1942, Your Honor.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, can it not be seen very clearly from this document that the Food Ministry was responsible for the food allowances, because this is a decree issued by the Reich Minister for Food, and he is the one who has stated the amount of food to be issued to the population?
A Yes.
Q You also stated that there were also prisoners of war in the camp, to be sure, Italians and Russians. Do you know for what reasons these prisoners or war had been removed from their PW enclaves and put into these camps?
A No, I do not.
Q You also stated what the clothing allowance was for the inmates. Is it correct that in the last years of the war the German population also, particularly the German workers, received no allowance of material for clothes?
A That is correct.
Q Do you know that there was an order issued by Himmler in which it is said that the concentration camps, if the enemy should reach them, should be withdrawn from the supervision of the WVHA and that they should be submitted immediately to the orders of the Higher SS and Police Fuehrer under whose supervision the camp was?
A No.
Q Do you know that all questions concerning police matters, particularly questions about executions, were dealt with by the RSHA in Berlin?
A Yes, I do.
Q And that the RSHA had nothing to do with the WVHA?
A Yes.
Q You then mentioned a discussion during which Dr. Alfred Kurzke told you something. Do you know who else participated in that conversation?
A No, I do not.
Q According to the plan that you mentioned, namely, that on the approach of Allied troops, the Dora should be blown up-
A No, as far as I know, this order was recalled and cancelled later on, and a so-called evacuation order was issued.
Q In other words, the inmates were transported away from those camps and put into other camps?
A Yes.
Q Now, one more question. As a prisoner of war, you were in the camp of Bergen-Belsen, is that right?
A I?
Q I understood that you were in the camp of BergenBelsen as an inmate yourself.
A No.
DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions of the witness, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: We'll take the recess before the next cross examination.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Will the persons present in court take your seats.
Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL
Q. Please, may I have an opportunity to put a few more questions to the witness, which I could not put before, because I had to have oral information by the defendant. Witness, you testified that Dora was subordinated to the commander of the Camp Buchenwald for the time being?
A. That was the truth, yes.
Q. Is it correct if I say that it was the responsibility in these camps of the commander of the camp?
A. Partly, yes.
Q. Now, I refer back to those tunnels. I was told that those tunnels where the works were located were about 18 to 20 meters wide and 10 meters high, is that correct?
A. The size I think it was bigger.
Q. They were not real tunnels then? They were more or loss subterranean factories like work rooms?
A. Yes. Yes, you can say that.
Q. Is it correct that in these subterranean holes there were trains on tracks?
A. Yes.
Q is it correct to say that not only there was automatic heating facilities, but also by appropriate facilities the power was also taken care of.
A Power was taken care of.
Q Then refer back to the question of nutrition. You told of the rations the prisoners received. You told that to this Court. Is it correct that the prisoners who were working in the subterranean factories received additional rations?
A Yes, I testified that before.
DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
BY DR. MUELLER-THORGOW (for Defendant Goerg Loerner) Q Witness, when you were official physician in Dora where did you requisition the drugs for the prisoners?
A I got them in Berlin in Amtsgruppe D, I requisitioned them from there Q Immediately from Amtsgruppe D in Berlin, is that correct?
A My requisitions for drugs went via Buchenwald but were systematically directed to the office in Berlin. This is the official channel from Buchenwald.
THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, could you speak closer to the microphone, please?
Q Who in Camp Dora, regarding the clothing, who requisitioned it?
A The clothing was requisitioned by the administration of the camp, that is Buchenwald, from the administration of Camp Dora at the administration in Buchenwald.
Q Who was in charge of the Administration in Dora?
A The administration at Dora at first was in charge of SS Oberscharfuehrer Westphal and later on Hauptsturmfuehrer Froescher.
Q Who was in charge of the administration at Buchenwald?
A Barnewald.
Q And where did Barnewald requisition the clothing from, do you know that?
A Barnewald had to requisition it from his superior authority.
Q And who was that?
A That was from Berlin.
Q And who in Berlin?
A Which office of the WVHA I cannot tell.
Q Witness, this morning before the recess you testified that the Reichs' Nutrition Office was in charge of rations and determined the rations and you declared that the WVHA had nothing to do with it. Who, in your opinion, was responsible that food was delivered in an edible way to the prisoners? Who was especially in charge of construction of refrigerators, and so forth, for stocks about?
A Of course the administration of the camp.
Q And the superior authority?
A The superior authority was again the superior authority in Berlin.
Q You don't know whether it was the WVHA in a special case?
A No, I don't know that, but it is evident from the various cases.
DR. MUELLER-THORGOW: I have no further questions.
BY DR. HOFFMAN (for Defendant Scheide) Q Witness, in Direct Examination you testified that the prisoners who received, one now and then received sausages only every other day?
A Yes.
Q In cross-examination you said that weekly meat ration amounted to 50 grams, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q If you know, count up four days, the 50 grams, then they have 10 grams of meet every day, is that correct?
A That is correct, because it wasn't meat sausage but especially blood sausage and it was therefore perishable.
Q It is known that blood sausage contains very little meat, and you think that the 50 grams of meat was more or less a meat extract?
A No, that is the meat which is contained in the sausage.
Q I mean, that is the concentrated meat?
A No, we understand from a meat extract, I understand something different It is not concentrated meat, but just the ordinary meat which is used in sausages.