"I cannot use Gluecks for that particular purpose. He is too soft and he is simply not fit for that purpose as the whole matter is an primarily economic matter. You are my economic matter. You are my economix expert and I must assign you to that duty. I made up my mine to turn over the concentration camps to the SS-WVHA."
Q The Prosecution, with reference to the time after the third of March, 1942, introduced two organizational charts for the WVHA. The document No. 111 was introduced to this Tribunal, as Exhibit 38. It is organizational chart for the WVHA which was made on the 3 March, 1942 by the Reichsfuehrer-SS, and drafted by him.
I would like to interpolate here that this organizational chart was shown to the Tribunal when the Prosecution introduced Document Book No. II. I shall put this organizational chart before you now, witness, and ask you if the chart is a correct picture of the organization and branches of the WVHA.
A (Chart exhibited to witness) I know this plan, this chart. This chart gives a correct picture of the organization of the WVHA.
AAccording to the organizational chart, what were the main tasks of the WVHA?
AAmtsgruppe A dealt with all questions of troop administration of the Waffen-SS. In other words, with questions of economy, of pay, of legal question, and with personnel questions.
Q What was the task of Amtsgruppe B?
AAmtsgruppe B dealt with all the tasks in the field of troop economy. In other words the fields of food, clothing, billeting and, later on , also with question of transportation within the WVHA.
Q What were the tasks of Amtsgruppe C's, and who was in charge of that Amtsgruppe?
AAmtsgruppe C dealt with all the questions in the field of construction. It was last directed by Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Kammler.
Q Could you give us a short description of the personnality of Ober gruppenfuehrer Kammler, and the special tasks which were assigned to him by the Fuehrer?
A Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Kammler joined the WVHA in the Fall of 1944 by Himller's orders. At that time he was construction directoror manager-- of the Luftwaffe in the Air district of Brandenburg.
Kammler was a man of outstanding intelligence. Not only was he a wonderful construction engineer but also a son of an old Pommerian officer's family. And as a cavalry officer he was an excellent soldier, and he was also honorary professor at the technical school at Charlottenburg, with scientific matters.
Physically, he was tall slim, with a haughty nose, he was elastic just like a bow which is eternally strong. I could not understand it quite often how this man coped with the tasks with which he was assigned in as short a time as one day. He was everywhere! Apparently he slept only during his official trips in his car at night. And neither did he float on the surface, but he managed somehow to know all his fields of tasks to the very bottom. As chief of the special staff which during the course of the years all tasks gathered which were assigned to him, he was possessed of an agility which could not be explained. He called his men, members of the Luftwaffe, of the Waffen-SS, of the army, of the navy, who had been transferred to this particular staffto his office at any time of the day or night regardless of whether it was noon-between twelve and one--or at three o'clock in the morning. He did not pay any attention to that.
Not only he was in charge of the construction department in the WaffenSS,but he also managed to have say in the construction department of the police. And finally he succeeded early in 1945 in becoming the construction chief of the Army.
In his manners he was very ambitious-but in good sense because his ambition was never that of an ambition to become important. There was extreme energy in him. Towards the end, not only did he take care of these huge construction projects--of transferring the armament industry-not only did he participate in the program of the jet-propelled planes but he also influenced it in a good way.
The development of the entire "V" weapons were under his orders. I believe it was a series of fifteen to sixteen kinds of weapons. And then, on top of all that, he found the time to take over an active command at the front and to fully direct the use of these reprisal weapons from Berlin by dashing to one battery and then he was back at his office again.
As I said before, I simply couldn't understand how to carried out such tasks. But he was an unusual person in every respect.
Q What do you knew about the fate of Obergruppenfuehrer Kammler?
A I have no authentic information in that respect. There were rumors that during the last months before the capitulation he was in chargo of that division and that he was killed. Other people say that he is in Russia. I did not know.
Q In his capacity as chief of the special staff he was immediately subordinated to Hitler?
A Yes that is correct.
Q What were the tasks of Amtsgruppe W, which is also mentioned or contained in the organizational chart?
A In Amtsgruppe W all economic enterprises were included tasks resulted from the character of the single enterprises.
Q I shall now come to the tasks of Amtsgruppe D which was incorporated into the Main office as an Inspectorate of Concentration Camps on 3 March, 1942. At that time Brigadefuehrer Gluecks was in charge of it?
A Yes, that is correct.
A Where was the Main Office of the Inspectorate, and did anything change with that particular department when that division was incorporated into the WVHA?
A The Inspectorate at the concentration camps had its main office in Oranienburg. That is approximately 35 kilometers from Berlin. Even after the incorporation into the WVHA the main office remained there.
Q. What did the incorporation of the concentration camps with the WVHA actually mean?
A. A practical result of that incorporation was actually only the control and the organizational, or the ministerial supervision of the entire labor assignment of the concentration camp inmates in the armament industry.
Q. Did that incorporation result in the fact that the individual competences of the WVHA were Interpolater with the activities of the other agencies of the WVHA?
A. The other Amtsgruppen were not touched at all by this incorporation. It was a personal order of Himmler to me, with which I was personally affected in my work. However, as to the circumstances of the other Amtsgruppe, nothing changed with reference to their tasks as a result of this now measure.
Q. In the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps, did anything change in the administration of it through this change?
A. Only insofar as from that time on, Inspektor Gluecks had to report to me with reference to questions of labor assignment.
Q. Through the incorporation of the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps, did any other Amtsgruppe of the WVHA receive new tasks?
A. As I have already said before, no, because they were not at all touched by that new incorporation.
Q. Is it correct, witness, that the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps, even after the incorporation into the WVHA, was the central point in all questions of concentration camps until the end?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. With reference to the news and radio service in Oranienburg, was that in the seat of the Inspectorate; in other words, in Oranienburg? Or was it transferred to Berlin when this office was incorporated with the WVHA?
A. The broadcasting net which we had, our own broadcasting net, was that of the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps; it remained unchanged. In other words, there was no transfer to Berlin, that is, to the WVHA.
The WVHA did not have a news agency of its own. With reference to our news, we had to rely on the teletype facilities which were already there. However, all other characteristics remained at the Inspectorate in Oranienburg, which signify the personality of an Inspectorate. The Inspectorate retained its own personnel, it retained its own administrative office; it had its own Judge Advocate, and a few other things.
Q. Did the reports that went to the commanders of the concentration camps come from the WVHA in Berlin, or from Amtsgruppe D?
A. The instructions to the camp commandants came from Oranienburg, through the Inspectorate of the Concentration camps. It is possible -however -- I cannot recall that I ever gave instructions to the camp commandants myself.
Q. And to whom did the camp commandants report?
A. The camp commandants reported to their superior office, in other words, to the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps in Oranienburg.
Q. Is it correct that the Reichsfuehrer SS, Himmler, regularly gave direct orders and instructions to Amtsgruppe W, and to be exact, and not through you?
A. I know that he gave orders directly to the concentration camp commanders. However, I cannot prove that he actually did that regularly. I only received orders directly from him which were in connection with things which referred to my field of tasks.
Q. Did you participate in the official meetings which took place at regular intervals with the commanders of the concentration camp at Oranienburg?
A. I did not participate in one single official meeting which the Chief of the Inspectorate at Oranienburg had with the concentration camp commanders.
Q. If one of the concentration camp commandants wanted to talk to his superior about any matter, to whom did he report?
A. He reported to his immediate superior, in other words, the Inspektor of the Concentration Camps, Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks.
Q. How often did Obergruppenfuehrer Gluecks report to you in the WVHA, and how long did these meetings usually last?
A. Gluecks came to the WVHA quite regularly every Friday afternoon, to Berlin, to see me, and we discussed the questions of labor allocation. It also happened that when I wanted to go to see my family at Oranienburg, if I didn't have any time on Friday, I went to see him in his office in Oranienburg on Saturday morning in order to carry out the discussions there.
Q. So some of these discussions were about labor allocation. Who was Gluecks accompanied by when he went to the WVHA in order to report?
A. I do not recall that any other man was over with him, apart from Standartenfuehrer Maurer.
Q. What were Standartenfuehrer Maurer's functions in Amtsgruppe W?
A. Standartenfuehrer Maurer was chief of the Amt W 2. He was competent for the labor allocation of the concentration camp inmates.
Q. Did the WVHA at any time have the authority to carry out executive measures?
A. The WVHA as an administrative agency could not and did not have this authority.
Q. What was the only main office which was in a position to take care of police and security measures and other executive measures?
A. The RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office only was competent in these matters.
Q. Did you yourself have the possibility to send somebody to a concentration camp?
A. Neither more nor less than any other citizen of Germany. I had to either go and see the Gestapo, or I had to write to Kaltonbrunner. I did not have that authority by virtue of my official position.
Q. Who had the authority to issue so-called protective custody orders?
A. Protective custody orders could only be issued by the RSHA, or the Reich Security Main office.
Q. Is it correct that once in a while a reviewing of the sentences had to be carried out, in other words, with reference to the order of arrest, and that the RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office, was the only agency responsible for that?
A. I do not know from my own experience what the regulations were for the carrying out of a custody reviewing procedure. The RSHA the Reich Security Main Office, was competent for that task.
Q. Was the WVHA, or were you yourself, in a position to carry out the release of one of the protective custody inmates or prisoners?
A. No, I was not.
Q. With whom did the concentration camp commanders discuss executive questions?
A. Only with the Chief of Amt IV in the RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office.
Q. The Chief of that office was Gruppenfuehrer Mueller. Did you ever see Gruppenfuehrer Mueller at the Gestapo headquarters yourself?
A. I only went to see that man once, in all those years of my activity; that might have been before the war. I cannot tell you now exactly what it was all about. However, I take it that it was some sort of matter concerning the release of an inmate.
Q. With reference to matters of concentration camps, did you ever have any discussions with the Chief of the RSHA, Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner, and did he ever visit you, or did you ever visit him in his office?
A. I never discussed concentration camp matters with Kaltenbrunner. I never visited him in his office, and neither do I recall that he ever visited my in my office.
Q Where did you have to go to if you wanted to have a concentration camp inmate released?
A In those particular cases when I was interested in the release of one of the concentration camp inmates I did that by means of a private letter to Kaltenbrunner.
Q Did Gruppenfuehrer Gluecke, the Inspector of the concentration camps, report to you regularly with reference to the various discussions which he had with the chief of the Gestapo?
A No, he never did that. I never heard anything about the contents of these conversations.
Q With whom did you have official connections, apart from Obergruppenfuehrer Gluecks, with reference to Amtsgruppe D?
A The only person apart from Gluecks, with whom I had further official discussions regularly, was Oberfuehrer Lolling, the chief physician of the Inspectorate. He came to see me once a month. He then gave me the monthly report on the sickness and death rate development in the concentration camps, which was based on statistics.
Q What were the deductions that you could make on the statistical reports of Oberfuehrer Lolling, and how far were you thus in a position to see what happened in the development of the health situation of the inmates.
A On the basis of these statistics I could recognize the health condition of the inmates. The cases that occurred were separated, according to their nature, with curves, and also the development of the death rate. I could recognize, in other words, in what camps the sick or death rate was higher, where it was lower, and I could see what this was based on, what the reason was for that, because these single diseases were listed below with other statistics again, and as I said before, I could see the development of the death rate.
Q What was the position of the concentration camp commanders under the chief of the Inspectorate with reference to the chief of Amt D?
A They had the position of independent commanders and they were responsible for their own field of tasks.
That is why all the organs which belonged to an independent office or agency were at their disposal, namely, Command leadership, administration, and medical equipment. These three were requirements of an independent Command leadership.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: While you are right there on the reports that you say you got from Dr. Lolling, what did you find out as to the health or the death rate from these reports on the inmates? You said you could see the condition and the death rate. What did you find out, or what was your conclusion from these reports?
THE WITNESS: I could deduct from these statistics, in other words, where the diseases had increased, where the death rate had increased, or where it had been reduced. I said that. I said that I could see from those curves all those various things on the basis of those drawings that were submitted me.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Did they give you any figures?
THE WITNESS: Of course. I mean, it was statistically listed. I could see from month to month, let us say, the death rate is fifteen per thousand, or twenty-five per thousand, on the basis of these figures I could recognize if the death rate was rising or if it was sinking, and I could find out what the reasons were for this development.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, did it give the figures, the number of dead each month?
THE WITNESS: No, I did not receive these total figures in those statistics.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: When you received the percentage of deaths, weren't you sufficiently interested to ascertain the actual number of deaths?
THE WITNESS: Well, I always based myself on the statistics. In other words, on the percentage. I did not have any information on the total number of the deaths, and how they were distributed on the various
JUDE MUSMANNO: Then you did ascertain the actual number of deaths.
THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, if you received a report which said 2.5 deaths, now didn't you carry through to learn just what 2.5 meant in numbers?
THE WITNESS: I never received a written report, in other words, in text form. The report which was submitted to me consisted of nothing but curves. It was statistically written down in curves. I never received a report which was written -- shall we say typewritten -- and that stated for every camp so and so many people died, or so and so many are sick, but it was just a preliminary work that was carried out. Lolling received from all the camps the sick reports and he compiled them and made one big statistic, and that was the statistic that was submitted to me, that I could see clearly and immediately what the development of the camps was.
JUDGE MUSMANN: Don't let speak in such abstractions. You actually received a report showing the percentage of deaths?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I received a statistic development of the deaths, but I never received a report.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Please answer the question directly. Did you receive a percentage report?
THE WITNESS: No, I didn't.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You said a few moment ago that you did, that you would receive a report showing a certain percentage per thousand of deaths. Now did you or did you not receive such a percentage report?
THE WITNESS: Well, when I say "report" I mean a written report concerning the developments, not a statistic report.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I understand you to say a few minutes ago that it was a statistical report.
THE WITNESS: That is correct. When I say "a statistical report" I mean the curves of development which are in the statistics.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well. Then you received a chart with the curves showing whether the deaths were increasing or decreasing.
THE WITNESS: Yes, that is correct.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes. And now did you translate that curve into figures?
THE WITNESS: Well, from the curve -
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Into numbers.
THE WITNESS: -- from the curve I couldn't actually recognize the total number of deaths.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, what would the curve mean to you if it were not translated into numbers? Looking at a bare curve would be of no significance unless it were translated into figures, isn't that right?
THE WITNESS: I do not quite understand the question. Would you repeat it?
(The question was repeated by the interpreter.)
THE WITNESS: That is quite correct. Of course, it does. From the curve I could see the percentage or the per mille of a thousand inmates, and then I could translate it into the total number of inmates. In other words, if it was stated that of a thousand inmates, fifteen had died, then I could figure it out for myself that was the total number of the death rate compared with the total number of inmates. Of course I could.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Then you did know how many people were dying in the concentration camps.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: And when you saw the number increasing, did you do anything about it?
THE WITNESS: Of course I did. That development was always dependent on the development of the diseases. I inquired what diseases actually prevailed there, what measures had been taken in order to eliminate a steady increase of these diseases. The diseases, epidemic diseases, were usually the reason for the deaths, and they depended on the time or on the epidemic that prevailed at that time. In these curves we could not see all the deaths which occurred through the measures of the Reich Security Main Office or the Reich Government.
I only dealt with the inmates who were in the camps according to plan, and who could be used for labor allocation.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What Judge Phillips and I were endeavoring to ascertain, and I think now we have ascertained, is whether you knew the number of deaths occurring in the concentration camps, and from this long interrogation we now conclude that you did know.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well, you may carry on, Dr. Seidl. As far as we are concerned we have finished this phase.
THE PRESIDENT: This is a good place to stop. A luncheon has been arranged for some guests from Berlin for the judges, but their plane has been delayed and we cannot have the lunch until one o'clock, so we will recess until two o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION The hearing reconvened at 1430 hours.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
OSWALD POHL - Continued DIRECT EXAMINATION -- Resumed BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, before the recess we had come to the reports which the chief physician for concentration camps, Dr. Lolling, made to you about sickness conditions and mortality figures. We shall have to come back to this point once again, of course, but I want to ask you right now: Was this statistical report, which was in the form of graphs, subdivided according to individual concentration camps, or was this statistical picture given merely for the entirety of the camps?
A. It was not subdivided according to individual camps, but it gave the picture for all camps.
Q. Let me first of all pass by the fact that repeatedly epidemics broke out in various camps. Let me, however, put this question to you: Did the statistical pictures Dr. Lolling gave you as graphs give you cause for any particular qualms regarding the health conditions of prisoners and the death rate.
A. No, these graphs were compiled on the strength of casualty figures, and the death rate was within normal limits, so that I had no particular reason to take any particular steps.
Q. We know today that in certain camps extermination measures against certain groups were introduced, and I am thinking especially of the extermination of Jews. Were these groups of people represented in Dr. Lolling's statistics, or did he confine himself to covering only those cases which, on the strength of reports from medical offices, from individual camps, came to his knowledge?
A. The figures about exterminations were not reported to the Inspectorate at all, and consequently Dr. Lolling could not evaluate them for his statistics. He made his statistics on the strength of reports which the camp medical officers submitted to him.
Q. This morning I showed you an organization chart which the Prosecution had offered as Exhibit No. 38. It is an organizational chart for the period after 3 March 1942, which Himmler had approved. Before showing you a different organizational chart, I want to ask you about the principles which directed you in connection with the administration of the WVHA which was under your command, and I want you particularly in this connection to answer the question whether you at any regular intervals held conferences with department chiefs and individual departments.
A. In the WVHA I had no conferences where all department group chiefs were present or were present together with department chiefs. Such conferences were never held by me. The matters which I had to discuss with my officials were always brought up with the individuals concerned, whom I would ask to come in to see me. Questions affecting the chiefs in their entirety never arose, so that there was no reason for any collective conferences with everybody in attendance.
Q. In this connection I shall now submit to you this second organizational chart which the Prosecution has submitted to this Tribunal in evidence. That is the organizational plan which the Prosecution themselves have compiled and which has the Exhibit No. 36, under which it was submitted to this Tribunal. It is Document NO 2672. It is attached to the brief which the Prosecution has submitted to the Tribunal, which deals with principal statements regarding the SS and the WVHA. This organizational chart is different from the one we had originally discussed because here the individual departments are not put side by side but one below the other. You yourself, as well as the other accused department chiefs, have signed the plan. You now have it in your hand, and I want to ask you now whether this plan is a correct reproduction of the groups of the WVHA and for what period it can be considered as being correct.
A. When I signed this plan, I confined myself to certifying to the correctness of the spheres of influence for individual department groups and their staff. That is to say, to have it checked because both the material structure -- subject incidentally to occasional changes -- as well as the personnel which comprised the staff was no longer quite clear in my memory.
For that reason, I asked during the interrogation that the group chiefs concerned should be consulted in order to have them carry out a preliminary examination of the correctness of the plan. That was, in fact, done. Unfortunately, I did not concern myself with the type of drawing employed when this plan was made. In fact, it came to my attention only when I saw this plan here as a large wall chart. I must say in this connection that the drawing used for this plan, and therefore for the organization of the WVHA, does not correspond with my views. Our organizational chart was always made in such a manner that the independent jurisdiction of the individual department groups was clearly shown. Consequently, all the organizational charts which we ourselves compiled show department groups as blocks side by side, but not in this form, which gives the impression that all department groups and departments were interconnected, which is not true.
Q. Then it is your view that the putting of the department groups side by side, as was done in the plan passed by Himmler, Exhibit 38, is a more correct reproduction of the true organizational picture than the picture contained in Exhibit No. 36, where individual groups are one be love the other?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Then it would be correct to say in particular that instructions which, for instance, Department C was to get, would previously have to go through A and B; that, after all, is the impression which you might get if you assume that the organization is correct which the organization plan of the Prosecution contains?
A. Yes, but that is not so. Instructions which I gave to department groups went directly from me to the very group of departments concerned, without any other group of departments being affected.
Q. I shall now turn to some questions dealing with the legal position of the WVHA.
Was this department an authority of the Reich or of the National Socialist Party?
A. The WVHA was a department of the Reich.
Q. From whom did you and the chiefs of the department groups and departments receive your salaries?
A. I myself, as well as the others, was paid by the Reich.
Q. How much did you receive as the Chief of the WVHA at various times?
A. When I was transferred to the SS I started with 600 Marks per month, and then I rose according to my promotions to the corresponding salaries of the ranks I held, reaching the top of General's rank. This was paid together with the following special payments and reached eventually at the very end 2500 - the not amount of 2700 Marks, and it consisted of the following: My general salary or pay, about 1400 Marks; 300 Marks additional allowances as department chief; 375 Harks paid to me as Plenipotentiary for the German Red Cross; 300 Marks were paid to me as the Reich Treasurer and Administrator of the NSDAP, and for a certain period I had an allowance, quarters allowance, of 400 Marks. That was my total income from pay.
THE PRESIDENT: Is this permonth? Each month?
A. Yes, per month.
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I shall now turn to discussing a number of documents submitted by the Prosecution. In order to facilitate the work of this Tribunal I shall quote the pages on which these documents can be found in both the German and English document books. The first document to which I shall refer is Document NO-019-A on page 43 in the German Document Book 2, which can be found on page 32 of the English Document Book. It is a letter from the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler to the head of the SS-Sector Weichsel of 15 December 1939 which the Prosecution has submitted as Exhibit No. 24. It is stated at the end of the letter:
"Concentration camps can only be constructed with my permission. Concentration camps now in existence are immediately subject to the jurisdiction of the Inspector for concentration camps, who is at present Herr Oberfuehrer Gluecks. The business of the economic business of this is the responsibility of SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl." End of quotation.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Let me ask you then, did you, already in 1939, concern yourself with allocation of labor in concentration camps, or what does the statement mean with regard to the care of economic considerations for the allocation of labor?
A. In 1939 I was not yet working on the allocation of labor in concentration camps. This statement here made by the Reichsfuehrer Himmler is due to the fact that approximately one year before, at the end of 1938, the workshops which had been in existence up to then in concentration camps, due to their increase in size, had been transferred as economic enterprises to the supervision of the WVHA. And for the first time I came into contact with these business enterprises in concentration camps. Here, Himmler is referring to this procedure and he had given me the task that at Stutthof -- which is to say at the time I should ascertain whether the economic installation which was there would be suitable for the employment of prisoners.
This was my task in the case of Stutthof.
Q. On 21 February, 1940, the Inspector of concentration camps, SS-Oberfuehrer Gluecks, had written a report to Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler about inspections of camps. A copy of this report was passed on to you, and the Prosecution has submitted it as Exhibit No. 29. It is Document NO-034, on page 49, of German Document Book No. 2; page 38 in the English version. This report shows that the taking over of the camp at Stutthof near Danzig, as a concentration camp of the State, was approved by you. I want to ask you what reasons you had for doing so.
A. In connection with all such questions I always acted as the expert concerned, and I investigated the question of whether the installation might be suitable for the employment of prisoners. My answer had to be yes or no; and in this particular case the answer was in the affirmative. The reporter called it "Befuerwortung," a statement in favor of the step.
Q. Some of this document is a file note of Sturmbannfuehrer Maurer dated 17 December 1941, and the prosecution submitted it. Statements contained therein-or, rather, was this a decision which you, yourself, had made, or did you merely wish to ascertain -- the consequences of a decision made by Himmler? I want to draw your attention to Figure 1 of this report in this connection, dealing with an inspection carried out on 10 September 1941. It states:
"The camp is very clean and suitably installed. After the Reichsfuehrer-SS had ordered the taking over of the plant as a model concentration camp suitable for the accommodation of approximately 25,000 Russian prisoners of war, I considered the extension of existing workshops and the taking over by the German Equipment GMBH as possible." End of quotation.
A. In this case, I only dealt with the consequences of a decision made by Himmler which I ascertained because the actual transfer or foundation of a concentration camp could not be ordered by me.
Q. As Exhibit No. 37 of the Prosecution has presented Document NO-495. The subject is a letter from the Reichsfuehrer-SS dated 19 January 1942, which, however, you yourself have signed. It is Document Book 2, page 56 of the English version.
You have already described the development of the WVHA which at the beginning of January 1942 came to some sort of conclusion as the Budget & Construction Department, and the Administrative Department of the SS were dissolved, and the tasks of these three departments were transferred to the WVHA effective 1 February 1942. This circular letter states as follows:
"In this Main Office, all economic, administrative, and construction matters of the Reichsfuehrer-SS will be dealt with on a ministerial level."
What is the significance of this statement: "ministerial level," I mean?
A. It was a realization of a goal. Himmler apparently had the idea that the WVHA might one day represent for him the centralized department for all matters to be dealt with on a ministerial level. That is to say, in the first place, for his entire budget as Reichsfuehrer SS, and the Chief of the German Police; and in the second place, for all construction matters. This centralization was never achieved. The reason for this was that, for instance, men like Daluege and Heydrich refused to collaborate. They refused to give up their independent budgets. Buth had in fact had their own ministerial counselors in their chief departments to which they would address themselves and who were responsible for the budget of their construction matters of their Main departments. But other construction -or, rather, other Main departments, too, as time went on --went back to an independent basis; as, for instance, the Main Department of the Reichs Commissioner for the strengthening of German national interests had a construction office --or constructional organization - of its own.
These constructional matters, too, did not go through the WVHA. In fact this statement here is the representation of an aim which was never achieved.
Q. The next question deals with Document NO-1063-FPF, which the Prosecution have submitted as Exhibit No. 39. It is on page 69 of the German in the document book, and page 65 in the English version. It is a letter from the Chief of the SS Security Police and of 30 May 1942 addressed to the Security Police and the SD, and informing them that the orders from the Reichsfuehrer-SS and Chief of the German Police, dated 3 March 1942, referred to the Department Group D, which is made part of the WVHA. Literally I quote from this letter:
"This measure serves the direction of the war in the East as it regards manpower and does not affect the responsibilities of the Reich Security Main Office, the RSHA, for arrest and releases of inmates, leaves, etx." End of quotation.
Now, let me ask you, after the incorporation of the Inspectorate of concentration camps, did you have to deal with matters for war employment of prisoners-negotiate with this department?
A. I , personally, as far as questions of labor allocation were conerned, did not have one single conference with the RSHA, nor do I believe that Maurer did so; because the RSHA had no jurisdiction over labor allocation, and no negotiations took place between the two Main departments.
Q This change of organization -- did that lead to a collaboration between the RSHA on the one side and the WVHA on the other?
A. No.
Q. I shall now turn to Document R-129, submitted by the Prosecution as Exhibit No. 40, German text page 70, Document Book 2, page 66 in the English version. It is an order which, yourself, gave after the Inspectorate of concentration camps had been included in the WVHA, and which contains the instructions and information given to camp commanders during the conferences on the 24th and 25th of April.