A Yes, that is right; I saw him.
Q Did you know Eirenschmalz before then?
A Only from heresay. I heard about him. I heard about him, yes. I knew his reputation. I knew that he was in the Department VI-C. I always saw the forms which he signed, and I knew that he was the head.
Q But when, in the summer of 1944, a person turned up whom you think and assume was Eirenschmalz---how did you know it was Eirenschmalz? Did you talk to him?
A No, I never talked to him, but at that time the Hauptscharfuehrer Stiller, who was in charge of the construction yard, told me that I should take the whole of my electrical equipment; I should fetch it as quickly as possible because that day an inspection would be taken by Eirenschmalz, by Obersturmbannfuehrer Eirenschmalz who was in charge of all the construction matter. And I told him, well, I would do everything in order to take all these things away.
Q But you haven't answered my question correctly. I want to know precisely, when this commission of which you talk now turned up in the camp, who pointed out Eirenschmalz to you and said, "This is Eirenschmalz"?
A That was the head of Magazine 14, an inmate, a man called Dobraniewski. He told me because he had spoken a few times personally with Eirenschmalz when Eirenschmalz came there in order to inspect the electrical magazines, and he knew--the inmate knew--very well who Eirenschmalz was, what his office was, and so forth.
Q But you had no personal interest to see Eirenschmalz on that day?
A No, I had no interest; I had no reason to talk to him. I merely observed at that time that the commission was there--what they did--and I heard on that occasion that the man who was always with Bischof was Eirenschmalz, the head of Department VI-C.
Q What did Eirenschmalz want in the camp on that day?
A The camp was to be liquidated on that day because the Russian troops were very near.
I think they had reached Lublin on that day, and the camp had to be evacuated very quickly, and the construction yard, the material, was to be evacuated before the people. And at that time we knew that that would happen in the next few days. Also, we knew that before then a commission was to come which had to decide how the evacuation was to be carried out; and, actually, two days after Eirenschmalz's visit, the material and the construction was divided up. Some of it was sent to Lyssa, Breslau, and Groslow, and the other part of the material was sent somewhere else.
Q Now, this construction yard of which you talk so often--did that come under another department than C-VI?
A The whole of the construction yard was under the Department VI-C. All magazines belonged to one department--which was Department VI-C. I went to all magazines and I obtained material for our workshop from all magazines, and I always saw on all the forms which were necessary---I saw Department VI-C.
Q Is the organization known to you at all? That is, take, say, what department belonged to the building inspectorate. Do you know anything about that sort of thing?
A The Department VI-C was in charge of--was divided up into various offices. I don't know... But all I know is that the whole of the construction yard belonged to Department VI-C. All material was administered by Department VI-C.
Q You always speak of a sub-department. I wish to point out here...Department VI-C-- But I am asking you whether you know the other building departments. Do you know anything about them--other departments?
A Yes, the other departments... No, I had nothing to do with other departments.
Q How can you then say that the building yard was under Department VI-C?
A I can point out the contrary is not true.
Q But how do you know? How do you have the knowledge?
A On all the forms it said Department VI-C; and in the office of the building inspectorate there were several orders, directives, instructions, and so forth, which were on the wall, and they were always signed "Eirenschmalz." And it always said, "Department VI-C, of the WVHA."
Q You say, witness, who was the representative who signed for Eirenschmalz?
A Who was his deputy, you mean?
Q I would like to know his name.
A I think there are two or three times; that was not the case very often. Only very rarely did somebody else sign for Eirenschmalz.
Q How often did you see Eirenschmalz there? How often?
A Well, I saw him clearly once, and before then I heard once or twice that he was the head of Department VI-C. There were other visitors but I hadn't seen him myself.
Q How is it possible then that after so long a time after you said you have seen him only once--how is it possible that you identified him?
A My memory is excellent.
Q You also say that a large part of the material was already in the camp.
A Yes; in the construction yard.
Q Then why should it be necessary to apply for more material? Surely you could get it from the men in charge of material in the camp itself.
A I do not understand.
Q Let us assume that a repair was necessary, or something. The building material or any other material was in the camp already; no? The material--I repeat my question--in the camp there was in the building yard?
A. Yes.
Q That building yard had all this material there?
A Yes.
Q If, therefore, it was necessary to have a repair done--or anything else--all that had to be done was to ask the building yard for more material?
A Yes, only from the building yard.
Q But do you wish to say that Eirenschmalz was also in charge of that building yard?
A In charge of that building yard was a Hauptscharfuehrer and a non-commissioned officer, a man called Stiller.
Q Now, I would like you to tell me what did Eirenschmalz have to do with supplying building material to the camp? After all, material was there.
A Eirenschmalz was the highest administrative officer as far as material was concerned, and he was in charge of all this building yard-not only of the one in Auschwitz but all those other camps.
Q Therefore, I can not see why Eirenschmalz should pay a visit at all. The material was there, after all, and-
A Somebody had to decide what had to be done with this enormous material. The material which was collected in Auschwitz amounted to millions. It was very valuable. I think it was the biggest collection of material I have ever seen in all my life.
Q If I understand you correctly, what happened was this: building material was there on the spot in sufficient quantities--even in very large quantities?
A Yes.
Q The purpose, as you see it, of Eirenschmalz's visit was merely for Eirenschmalz to give some orders on the transfer of material already there?
A Yes.
Q That was the purpose of the visits that was why Eirenschmalz came to Auschwitz.
A -
BY DR. BELZER (Counsel for the defendant Sommer):
Q Witness, will you tell me once again when you were in Auschwitz?
A I was there since August 1942 until the end of October 1944.
Q August '42 to the end of October 1944... How often in that period was the defendant Sommer in Auschwitz?
A Oh, I think he was there all the time.
Q Please?
A He was there all the time, I think. I saw him in various places in all the months.
Q How often, roughly?
A Many times.
Q Just give us any figure.
A I could say twenty or thirty times--perhaps even more; I don't remember it in detail. Anyway, I know it was many times.
Q Was the defendant Sommer inside the actual camp?
A Yes.
Q And once you said the defendant Sommer was accompanied by several other officers, officers in charge of labor assignments.
A Yes, they were non-commissioned officers in charge of labor assignments. I saw him quite often in the company of one or two such officers, or sometimes I saw him alone, when he was sitting on his motorcycle.
Q. What rank did Sommer hold?
A. He had three squares on black cloth, which is the Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q. When you saw him for the first time, was he a Hauptsturmfuehrer? Through the time you saw him, was he a Hauptsturmfuehrer?
A. I could not say that, when I saw him for the last time.
Q. When did you see him for the last time?
A. In 1944.
Q. 1944?
A. Yes, perhaps a bit before. I know definitely that in the winter of 1944 I saw him.
THE PRESIDENT: Let the witness finish his answer.
Q. Was it in the winter of 1944 to 1945?
A. No, at that time I was no longer in the camp. I was evacuated to Oranienburg.
Q. It must have been in the first month of 1944 then. You say on one occasion Sommer was together with his superior officer?
A. Yes.
Q. Who told you that this man was Sommer's superior officer?
A. We knew that.
Q. You knew that? Did you see that superior officer before?
A. No, only once.
Q. Only once, accompanied by the defendant Sommer, and then you knew that he was the superior officer, did you?
A. Yes. I asked an inmate. I asked an inmate who worked with me. I asked who this other man was and he said, "He is a Sturmbannfuehrer."
Q. Now, when you saw Sommer so often, then you can say what sort of uniform the defendant Sommer wore?
A. What uniform do you mean? An SS uniform, of course.
Q. What do you mean, SS uniform?
A. He was wearing the typical uniform of a Waffen SS officer.
Q. Now, I could imagine, for instance, that an officer is in long trousers, and I could also think that an SS officer is wearing boots.
Did he wear boots?
A. Yes. I only saw non-commissioned officers in long trousers.
Q. You mean non-commissioned officers in longer trousers sometimes and the defendant Sommer was wearing boots?
A. Yes, he always wore boots or nearly always. Sundays perhaps he didn't.
Q. When did you see a photograph of Sommer for the last time?
A. I never saw a photograph of Sommer.
Q. You never saw a photograph of the defendant Sommer?
A. Not when I was in the camp I didn't.
Q. I did not ask you that. I asked you when you last saw a photograph of the defendant Sommer.
A. I never saw a photograph of him.
Q. When the prosecution examined you, did they show you a photograph of the defendant Sommer?
A. No, I was not shown a photograph. On Friday when I recognized Pohl I noticed that he was sitting behind Pohl, and at that time I recognized him.
Q. That is to say, when you were examined by the prosecution, you were never shown a photograph of the defendant Sommer?
A. No.
Q. What was the purpose of the visit of the defendant Sommer to the Auschwitz camp?
A. He was working there permanently and his task was to distribute work among the detachment. He supervised it himself; he supervised the work himself. He only paid a surprise visit Sunday to our detachment and he saw to it that the inmates would work assiduously. If they didn't, he would devise certain punitive measures, such as breaking people's heads.
Q. In order to come back to another question, what kind of hats did Sommer wear when he was in Auschwitz?
A. Usually he wore a round hat.
Q. Did you ever see the defendant Sommer in skiing trousers?
A. You mean skiing trousers?
Q. These long trousers which are worn by skiiers.
A. It is quite possible. I cannot recall.
Q. Can you recall that the defendant Sommer ever wore skiing trousers?
A. I do not remember.
Q. You cannot remember?
A. No, I cannot remember.
Q. Did you ever see the defendant Sommer wear mufti?
A. No, I did not.
Q. You say that you saw Sommer about twenty or thirty times. How often was the defendant Sommer sitting on his motorbike? How often did you see him on his motorbike?
A. Very often.
Q. What sort of motorbike was it? What brand?
A. I'm not sure. It was a heavy DKW, I think. It looked like a DKW.
Q. Did you ever see the defendant Sommer walking?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you notice anything peculiar in the way he walked?
A. The way he walked, you mean? I didn't notice anything.
Q. You noticed nothing? Thank you very much.
DR. GAWLIK: Dr. Gawlik for the defendant Bobermin.
EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Witness, do you read newspapers?
A. Yes.
Q. What newspapers? Do you read newspapers generally?
A. Yes, I do indeed.
Q. Did you read in the newspapers reports on this trial?
A. No, I only read Polish newspapers.
Q. Please answer my question. In your newspapers did you see reports on the trial against Pohl and others?
A. Yes, I saw something in a Polish newspaper once. It said that the trial had opened.
Q. Thank you very much. In that newspaper you read the names of the defendants, did you not?
A. No. No, it said Pohl and others, Pohl and accomplices is what it said.
Q. What did you say? I didn't hear you.
A. All the newspaper said was, "The defendant Pohl and his accomplices."
Q. Did it say accomplices?
A. Yes, in Polish, indeed it did.
Q. And what else did it say?
A. That the trial was held in Nuernberg.
Q. No names of other defendants?
A. No, no names of other defendants.
Q. You were in Auschwitz for three years, were you not?
A. Yes.
Q. What were the names of the camp commandants?
A. The first one was Hoess.
Q. What is his Christian name?
A. Rudolf.
Q. Go on.
A. Then after Hoess was called to Berlin, Liebehenschel came in.
Q. What was his Christian name?
A. I think Gustav or Hans.
Q. But you're not sure?
A. No, I'm not quite sure.
Q. But you heard the name of Liebehenschel?
A. Yes, yes, Liebehenschel, I heard that.
Q. Who was in charge of the protective custody camp?
A. That was Baer.
Q. What was his Christian name?
A. Erich. Then there was a man whose name was Aumeier.
Q. What was his Christian name?
A. I think Otto but I'm not quite sure.
Q. You're not quite sure?
A. In any case it was Aumeier. I don't know his Christian name.
Q. But you do admit that you had heard his name?
A. The name, yes, but not Aumeier's Christian name because we always called him by a code name. We referred to him under a code name.
Q. What were the names of other camp leaders? What were their Christian names, I mean?
A. Hermann, Hermann Schwarz.
Q. Go on.
A. Then there was Hoffmann.
Q. What was his Christian name?
A. I do not know.
Q. But you also admit that you heard the name Hoffmann often?
A. Yes.
Q. What were the names of the people in charge of labor detachments?
A. In Auschwitz there was Hehl.
Q. What was his Christian name?
A. I think Friedrich.
Q. But you're not sure? What was the name of your block leader?
A. My block leader's name was Winter.
Q. And his Christian name?
A. His Christian name was Rudolf.
Q. Other block leaders, please.
A. Other block leaders?
Q. Surely there were several while you were there. There must have been several block leaders
A. Yes, there was one called Woitschechowski. He came from Clemens. Then there was the one in charge of my workshop.
Q. What was the custom in your camp? Did you talk about the camp leaders, the SS officers, by their Christian names?
A. No, as a rule we didn't, only their names and their rank.
Q. Now I want to come to something else.
A. When you saw a signature or a printed Christian name, then of course you could know what the Christian name was.
Q. Is it correct, witness, that it was only the rule to refer to an SS Fuehrer, that is to say, his Christian name would appear only on printed forms or letters, but it was not usual in talks to refer to SS officers by their Christian names? Is that correct? Please answer yes or no.
A. Usually not, but in this case or in certain other cases if they were well-known officers then the NCO's would assume a familiar tone and refer to them by their Christian names. They would say "Hans", for instance.
Q. I am not speaking about Bobermin, witness, at this point. I am speaking quite generally.
A. Well, we knew, for instance, that they would call each other Gusti, Hansi and so forth.
Q. You did not understand my question. What I am asking you is this, and please answer yes or no. Was it usual in the camp to have the names of SS leaders, to have their Christian names on printed forms and letters, whereas when you talked about people, only the name and the rank would be mentioned? Please answer my question yes or no.
A. No, it wasn't like that.
Q. You wish to say no; is that right? It was not usual?
A. It was not very frequent to use Christian names when you talked about people.
Q. That is to say, when you talked about people the Christian name was used infrequently?
A. Less frequently than otherwise.
Q. Very well. Now I come to the incident in June 1943. You say that on that day you worked in a detachment which had to get together electrical equipment for the camp; is that right?
A. Electrical equipment, yes.
Q. Please answer my questions yes or no. Where was this electrical equipment put up?
A. They were put near the camp F, which was a hospital camp, and they were put near a place called Sauna.
Q. How big was the route on which you worked with that electrical equipment roughly?
A. About three hundred meters, or four hundred meters perhaps.
Q. Four hundred meters. How many masts are put up on a---
A. There was one mast every fifteen meters.
Q. Fifteen meters--one mast. And how long does it take to erect one pole?
A. How long do you mean? Perhaps two or three hours.
Q. One pole?
A. One pole, yes. We had to---
Q. No, I do not ask what you had to do. How long does it take to erect a pole? That's all I want to know. Please answer my questions correctly.
A. Two or three hours.
Q. How big was your detachment?
A. Fifteen men.
Q. Fifteen men?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many people are working to erect one pole?
A. Half of us would dig a ditch, and the other half would put up the pole.
Q. Who was in charge of that detachment?
A. The SS man you mean?
Q. Yes.
A. Unterscharfuehrer Otto Jenne.
Q. Who was the Capo?
A. The Capo was a Pole called Franz Bawrowski.
THE PRESIDENT: And what is a Capo?
Q. Will you please explain what a capo is, witness?
A. A Camp is an inmate who is in charge of the other inmates, and he has to supervise the work. He never worked himself, but he gave directives to others, and he saw to it that everybody worked well.
THE PRESIDENT: A foremen or a boss?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it's fairly similar to a foreman.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
Q. Witness, what is the usual distance for poles to be erected?
A. Usually poles are at the distance of fifteen meters from each other.
Q. Why was it done differently in Auschwitz?
THE PRESIDENT: We are not very much interested in how many meters there were between poles, nor how many minutes it took to put one up. Does that help?
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, the reason I am asking this is that the witness alleges that he worked there from 10:00 in the morning until 5:30 in the evening in order to erect poles and had been able to observe everything which, I think, is very unlikely.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, don't pursue it too far. Go ahead, but come to the end--of the poles.
Q. Why were the poles put up so close to each other?
A. Because the soil was very bad, and general conditions were rather difficult. And one line of these poles was to go upwards and the other part of the poles should cover a different route, and these two routes should intersect at one point. Cone was to go to Sauna and the other one was to go from Camp F--from the kitchen of the camp to the Crematorium Number 1.
Q. And you worked throughout the time of the visit?
A. Apart from an hour's interval at lunch time from half past 12:00 to half past 1:00.
Q. It was said here that you had to run while you did your work.
A. Normally not in our detachment. Skilled workers did not have to ran to their work.
Q. But surely it is correct, especially when SS officers wore around, then the foreman and the SS man were particularly anxious to drive you to your work. Please answer yes or no.
A. We had to work very quickly but not running. He had to work very speedily. Our foreman was very good. So was our SS man, and therefore, we were not afraid that we would be beaten if we didn't work fast enough.
Q. Now, at what distance from your place of work was the crematorium and the gas chamber?
A. About sixty meters, sometimes forty meters, sometimes eithty meters.
Q. Is it true to say that the gas chamber and the crematorium were very strictly cordoned off and only few people were allowed admission there?
A. That is not correct, no.
Q. Also, you said that you saw the people who came to the hospital on trucks -- who came to the gas chamber, rather -- on trucks -- how far was the hospital away from the gas chamber?
A. From the hospital end of Auschwitz, that was about four kilometers.
Q. How, if it was four kilometers, could you see that they came from the hospital?
A. Well, because they had no shirts on and they were ill. Some wore bandages; some had open wounds, and then when we returned to the camp I was told that this was a detachment to be gassed.
Q. Then you said that the crematorium was behind the gas chambers?
A. At the side of the gas chambers.
Q. At the side of it or behind it?
A. Well, perhaps twenty meters distance from the gas chambers, fifteen or twenty meters.
Q. Then you said that the corpses were taken from the gas chambers to the creatorium on small carts on stretchers?
A. This detachment had several equipment--
Q. I put it to you that before the IMT, an affidavit was submitted that there was a lift there. A lift was supposed to be there.
A. Later on, yes. Four months later the gas chamber was changed, but when the new gas chamber was built it was quite different from the old one.
Q. Now I come to your testimony about Bobermin. According to my notes you talked about three incidents; a) a person, who you think was Hans Bobermin, is said to have approached you to a distance of two or three meters. Then you talked about a conversation between Jenne and the foreman, and then finally you told about a remark made by Swoboda.
A. Yes, when I heard how the two talked together, and then the foreman told us himself that this is Bobermin.
Q. Now, please describe to us exactly the incident of how the person who you think was Hans Bobermin approached your group? Was he alone? What was he doing? Was he talking? What happened in the crematorium at the time-or the gas chamber?
A. He talked to our Unterscharfuehrer Swoboda.
Q. He talked to your Unterscharfuehrer Swoboda--
THE PRESIDENT: You ask him to answer your question and then you interrupt him. Let him answer your question. Go ahead.
A. (Cont'd) He talked with Unterscharfuehrer Swoboda alone perhaps for ten minutes. That was in the morning, and then he approached our group with somebody else, a civilian, but I am not sure whether it was a civilian. Anyway, another person was with him, and then he talked again with Swoboda, and then he asked him and Swoboda gave very slow and long answers in explanation, and then he walked away slowly. Bobermin walked away slowly. He went back to the group with Pohl.
Q. And what were you doing at that point?
A. Well, the transport of the inmates had already reached the gas chamber, and I observed from above, and these officers who had seen the thing already went back to the meadow.
Q. Did you not do any work at that time?
Yes, we were working at that moment.
Q. But now was it possible for you to observe what was going on in the gas chamber?
A. While we worked we talked to each other. We talked to each other and we could look around. We didn't work too hard.
Q. This person who you think was Hans Bobermin, you described him -- well built, broad shoulders, a high hat?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you give us more details?
A. No, I do not remember any more.
Q What rank was this person? What was this person's rank?
A He was an obersturmbannfuehrer.
Q. You saw that, did you?
A. Yes.
Q How did you recognize that he was an obersturmbannfuehrer?
A How did I recognize he was as obersturmbannfuehrer, you mean? Because of the badges he was wearing.
Q Please describe the badges to us.
A He wore four little nails as it were, and something else. I remember four things here and something else.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The court will be in recess fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for defendant Bobermin):
Q Witness, you said before the recess that this person who came to that place had four stars and something else; "something else," you said. What was that something else?
A I do not remember.
Q I did not understand you.
A I do not remember what it was.
Q However, you did recognize that this was an Obersturmbannfuehrer?
A Yes.
Q When this person came to you, you did not know that person's name, did you? Is that correct?
A When that person came to me we already knew that this was an Obersturmbannfuehrer.
Q However, you did not know the name at the time?
A When he left we also learned the name.
Q Could you answer my question with Yes or No? When that parson approached you and was near you, you did not know that person's name; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Then you further described that person as wellbuilt and with broad shoulders; is that correct?
A Yes.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I wish that the defendant Pohl may get up for a minute.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the defendant Pohl may stand. (Defendant Pohl complied) BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, would you say that the defendant Pohl is well built and has broad shoulders?
A Yes, I can say that. However, that was not Pohl I am referring to.
Q Was the person who approached you built the same way as the defendant Pohl? Answer the question Yes or No.
A It was a similar build.
Q How did it differ in shape, the build of the man who approached you and the build of the defendant Pohl?
A I remember that Bobermin had a leather coat on and he had it open. It is possible that, because of that leather coat, he looked as if he were more strongly built.
Q Witness, you did not answer my question. You said that his build was similar to that of the defendant Pohl, but not the same one.
A Yes, similar.
Q I asked you how it differed in shape, what was the difference between the two builds? You saw both persons on that day?
A Yes.
Q You also have a good memory?
A Yes, I do. The other person's namely, Bobermin's, differed from Pohl's by the fact that his shoulders were sort of falling.
Q Were there any further differences between the two?
A I can not remember that anymore.
Q I deduce from that that the sizes were approximate ely the same.
A Yes, approximately.
Q Now, I put before you, witness, that the defendant Bobermin, who is here, at the time had a special mark of distinction by which you could distinguish him from the defendant Pohl.