A. It was an Intermediate Staff and transmitted all requests and orders which came from the Kommando Agencies to be passed on to the Croatian Government.
Q. Did you have any troops under you?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any direct authority over any of the German authorities in Croatia?
A. May I once again ask you -- May I once again ask you to please repeat the question?
Q. Did this Staff exercise any direct authority over any of the German authorities in Croatia?
A. No.
Q. It was strictly a liaison agency, was it?
A. Yes, strictly a liaison agency.
Q. When the German Wehrmacht, for example, or some other German agency wanted to pass on information to the Croatians, it was done through your staff?
A. Generally, yes.
Q. And vice versa?
A. Yes, vice versa, also.
Q.- You say that Croatia was a sovereign state. What do you understand is meant by the term "sovereign state"?
A.- An independent state with governmental authority and at the head of the government a leader of the state with several ministries at his disposal.
Q.- Do you know, Colonel, when this sovereign state came into existence?
A.- To the best of my knowledge, it was in 1941 or 1942.
Q.- Before or after Croatia was occupied by the German troops?
A.- After.
Q.- Did the German troops ever leave Croatia the whole time you were there?
A.- I didn't understand what you meant by your question.
Q.- Was Croatia occupied by the German troops the whole time you were down there?
A.- Yes, it was.
Q.- When did the Croatian state cease to exist?
A.- Yes.
Q.- I am sorry, have you understood the question?
A.- I understood whether the Croatian state continued to exist and I said yes.
Q.- I said when?
A.- Oh, you mean when? It has not yet discontinued to exist.
Q.- This independent state of Croatia -- in your opinion -- is still continuing?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Now you say here that German forces were not allowed to carry out requisitionings in Croatia. What did you mean by that, -- requisitionings of material or requisitions of manpower or what?
A.- The German armed forces had no authority of their own in that state.
It depended on the Croatian government which had to give its approval and consent to all requests made by the German armed forces.
Q.- Then the German armed forces did not have authority to seize people and impress them as forced laborers?
A.- No.
Q.- Well, did they ever do it in spite of their lack of authority?
A.- I can't say that.
Q.- Did you ever get any complaints from the Croatian authorities that sort of thing was being done?
A.- Not to the best of my knowledge.
Q.- Well, if such a complaint had been made, wouldn't it have been passed through your staff? Wasn't that the proper agency for such a complaint to go to before it was given to the German army commanders?
A.- Only partially because with the German command agencies there were liaison officers of the Croatian government who had the same right. That is, they could pass on requests of the German armed forces to the Croatian government.
Q.- But when the Croatian government itself made a complaint that the German troops were doing something that displeased the Croatian government wouldn't that in all likelihood go through your office?
A.- That would have passed through our agency.
Q.- I want you to look at Document NOKW-1418 which will be handed to you in just a minute. It is in Book XVI, page 97 of the English and 143 of the German. Have you ever seen that before? Now, for the benefit of those members of the Tribunal who don't have their document book, this document begins:
"The Croatian government complains about the compulsory transfer in opposition to treaty regulations of male and female members of the population taken in band warfare, band suspects, or deserters, to employment in the Reich. Such measures are to be stopped immediately, etc...."
Do you recall any such complaints, Colonel?
A.- No.
Q.- Were you Chief of Staff of the Plenipotentiary General for Croatia at the time this instrument was dated -- the 20th of June, 1944?
A.- Yes.
DR. GAWLIK: If Your Honors please, I would like to point out an error in translation. It is constantly translated German General Plenipotentiary and it should be German Plenipotentiary General -- in order to put the record straight, the German record.
THE PRESIDENT: Any question as to this change in translation?
MR. FULKERSON: No, Sir.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q.- Wouldn't in the ordinary course of affairs, the way that business was run in Croatia, from what you have described, wouldn't the 15th Mountain Corps ordinarily have received such a complaint as this from your office? Isn't that the source? Or isn't that the funnel through which such complaints would have been distributed to the various army units?
A.- The agency of the German Plenipotentiary General had nothing to do with the deportation of any indigenous inhabitants. Whether these orders did in that case reach the German Plenipotentiary General, I do not think.
Q.- No, well I am not accusing the staff of the German Plenipotentiary of being the agency for deporting forced laborers, but I am asking if it wouldn't have been the agency to which a complaint of this kind made by the Croatian government would have been addressed?
A.- No, I don't believe it was the competent agency; to the best of my knowledge, the deportation of labor forces was not carried out by any military agencies. It was carried out to the best of my knowledge by a civilian agency which had its seat in Zagreb but which I personally never contacted there.
Q.- Well, wasn't the very point of this communication that this office that you are talking about in Zagreb was not even being consulted about the matter, that people were just being shipped arbitrarily off to Germany? Wouldn't a complaint of that kind normally have been addressed to your office?
DR. GAWLIK: If Your Honors please, the witness said he doesn't know anything about it. He never heard anything about it. His agency never received any complaints. How then is the witness to answer the question last put to him? The witness has already answered the question in his preceding answer when he said he didn't know anything about it. He didn't know anything about it because no complaints were received.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection will be overruled. Let's proceed to this matter or such matters as can be definitely disposed of without argumentative questions, if possible.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q.- Over here in paragraph I numeral 2 of your affidavit, you say that the German forces were only able to propose the imposition of reprisal measures. What did your office have to do with reprisal measures?
A.- My agency itself had nothing whatsoever to do with the reprisal measures. The situation was that if the troops or any command agency wanted to order reprisal measures, it needed the consent of the Croatian government for this order. There were two channels open to do this. One went via the German command agency and the German Plenipotentiary General to the Croatian government, and the other channel which was the one which was in most instances used, was the one that the Croatian liaison officers with the German command agencies approached the Croatian government directly. And the answer was passed on along the same channel.
Q.- Well, when these proposals were made by the Germans, what was the attitude -- what did the Croatian government then do?
A.- I cannot remember any individual proposals. I can merely say that during the discussions which were held about that topic, the requests in those areas where there was Serbian population, were more likely to be granted there than where there was Croatian population.
Q.- In other words, your recollection is that you would get a proposal from a German armed -- from a unit of the German armed forces saying "We want to shoot 20 hostages," and you would pass this proposal on to the Croatian authorities and then they would go out and select some serbs to be used as the executees. Is that the way it worked?
A.- I didn't quite understand that. We didn't go and select any Serbs. The Croatian government was the authority which held executive powers in that state. Subsequently and consequently, this agency had to give the order for a carrying-out of any execution.
Q.- Yes, I understand that but I am trying to follow just what you said a minute ago. Here were the steps as I understood them. You correct me if I misunderstood you: You got a request from a unit of the German armed forces, or rather a proposal to shoot a certain number of hostages or at least to execute a certain number of hostages. Your Office received that proposal. That was step number one.
A.- That is how it was established.
Q.- Then the second step was that you passed on this proposal to the Croatian government.
A.- That is how it was to be.
Q.- And then you say that the Croatians would go out and select some Serbs to be executed, in order to consummate this proposal.
A.- I have not been informed concerning this third step. I only had to carry out the liaison in writing between the Croatian government and the command agencies. We did not participate in any steps concerning the carrying-out of any proposals. What happened further we were never informed of.
Q.- Well, we have discussed the request or the order, was there any receipt, that is to say after you passed on this order for 20 hostages to be shot, or whatever it was and the Croatians did it, did they then send you any receipt that 20 hostages were shot as of proposal for the 15th of March, did they do that or how do you know they carried out the proposal?
A.- No, in actual practise that never happened that we received a receipt or similar document. Our activities were concluded the moment when we had passed on what the Croatian Government wanted to the German Command agencies and vice versa.
Q.- Well, didn't the German Army take any steps to see to it that proposals of theirs were actually carried out by the Croatians?
A.- I cannot tell you that.
Q.- Now, did you ever recall that the Croatian Government flatly refused to carry out any of these proposals?
A.- I only know of one case when there was a German division's request which the Croatians tried to mitigate. To the best of my recollection that was in the instance of a Cossack Division somewhere south of Zagreb.
Q.- But that is the only individual case that you say that you can remember?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Now you stated here that the railroad between Zagreb and Belgrade was of a decisive military importance?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Do you know in the area of what Corps, what German Army Corps this railroad was located?
A.- That question is not very easy to be answered. The Corps changed. Undoubtedly the railroad was partially for certain period of time situated in the area of the XVth and LXVIIIth Reserve Corps.
Q.- Now, are you pretty familiar with the chains of command and the various units of the German Wehrmacht, Navy, Air Force, Police, S.D., etc., which were located all over Croatia?
A.- Could you please repeat again which agencies you are referring to?
A.- I meant them all, I meant all of them; were you familiar with the chains of command to which each individual outfit was ultimately responsible and what the liaison was between them?
A.- Generally speaking, I am not familiar with it.
Q.- As a matter of fact, your duties in Croatia, were such that you were almost on detached duty from the Wehrmacht, weren't you, so far as the actual troops were concerned?
A.- I am afraid I could not quite follow your question.
Q.- I said that you personally had a job of such a nature that you are almost on detached duty while you were in Croatia, is that not true?
A.- Yes, that is correct.
Q.- You weren't subordinate to any Corps?
A.- No.
Q.- Were you even subordinate to any Army?
A.- Only to the Army Group.
Q.- And you didn't have any troops subordinate to you?
A.- No.
Q.- Can you remember off-hand the names of the divisions in the Corps Area of the 69th Reserve Corps during November, 1943?
A.- No, I cannot do that anymore: It was only on the 1st of October that I took over that office. To the best of my knowledge at the time the 173rd Reserve Division was stationed there. I believe that is the only division of which I can say for certain that it was stationed there.
Q.- Well, can you remember with any more clarity what troops were in that Corps Area in February of 1944?
A.- Unless I am mistaken one of the 180th Divisions, but I don't know which one.
Q.- Do you know how then, do you know the name of the commander of the 1st Cossack Division?
A.- That was General von Pannwitz.
Q.- Now, when was General van Pannwitz' division transferred I will give you that much of a lead - from the 69th Corps to the XVth Corps?
A.- I cannot tell you that, I don't know any longer.
Q.- What were the names of the various Einsatz Commandos located in Croatia; what were the names or numbers of the units?
A.- I don't know what you mean by Einsatz commandoes, there were only corps, as far as the army was concerned, corps and divisions.
Q.- I don't know, but it was my understanding there were groups of the S.D., but if you don't know we will dismiss that subject.
Now, you state here in your affidavit that the inspector of the Railway Security Office was directly under the 2nd Panzer Army?
A.- To the best of my knowledge, that is what I said.
Q.- How many men were in the Railway Security Service in Croatia?
A.- I cannot tell you that, the line which went through all of Croatia was guarded along a great number of kilometers; how many people, how many men participated in these guard duties only the corps or division in guarding it could tell you that.
Q.- Well, as far as you know, did the troops of the 69th Corps ever patrol this vital railroad which you just mentioned awhile ago or was that done strictly by the Railroad Security Troops?
A.- No, I believe troops of the LXIXth Corps participated also.
Q.- Well, were there more troops in the LXIXth Corps or more troops in the Railway Security Service?
A.- I don't know that.
Q.- Who was the man in charge of the troops of the Railway Security Service in the area of the LXIXth Corps?
A.- I cannot tell you that, those were tactical concepts with which the agency of the German plenipotentiary general was not concerned.
Q. Do you have any idea whether, when a successful sabotage act was committed on a railroad trestle or railroad bridge or culvert, or something of that sort, do you know who within the area of the 69th Corps was held primarily responsible for that among the German military personnel?
A. No, I can't tell you that.
Q. Do you know how the troops of the various divisions in the area of the 69th Corps divided their task of patrolling the railroad with the troops of the railroad security service?
A. No, I can't make any statements as to that.
Q. Do you know whether the various fortifications, towers, and so forth, which were built on the railroad, at vulnerable points such as at bridges and so forth - do you know whether these installations were built in the first instance, but the railroad security service or by the troops of the division in whose area this particular installation was located?
A. I can't tell you anything about that.
Q. Well, can you tell us after these various fortifications were built who manned them?
A. Well, I would assume -
Q. Now wait a minute -- let's not talk about assumptions. I want to ask you about what you actually know.
A. I don't know that.
MR. FULKERSON: I believe that's all.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any questions that defense counsel desire to present?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Witness, I'd like to clear up a misunderstanding which I believe arose through the interpretation. The prosecutor has asked you whether the Croatian State which existed when you were down there is still in existence today.
That is, the very same State which was established and existed at that time.
A. No, I don't believe that it can exist today. I must have misunderstood that.
Q. If I heard correctly, you answered that question in the affirmative.
A. Well, then, I misinterpreted the question.
Q. What did you understand by that question, Colonel?
A. Whether the Croatian State which was created by the German Reich still existed when I was down there.
Q. You were further asked whether the civilian agency was known to you which was competent for the regulation of labor commitments. In this connection, I would like to show you a document from Document Book 16, Page 143. Your Honors, that is Document NOKW 1418. It is Exhibit 394, contained in Document Book 16 of the Prosecution, on Page 143. In this document book, one agency is mentioned. Can you comment on the question, please, witness? Can you tell us whether that was the agency which alone was competent for the regulation of labor commitments?
A. Whether this agency was alone responsible -- that is, the Plenipotentiary General for the employment of labor -- the office for Croatian as in Zagreb -- I cannot tell you. I can merely state that this civilian agency undoubtedly had to deal with labor commitments at Croatia.
Q. Colonel, you further mentioned a Cossack Division which was stationed south of Zagreb. Can you give us a comment on the question whether the Cossack Division was under the 69th Reserve Corps?
A. No, I can't do that.
Q. In some detail on cross examination the railroad line ZagrebBelgrade was mentioned and discussed, and particularly the securing of that railroad line. In this connection, I'd like to show you an affidavit which you executed, particularly will you please look at the question on Roman numeral III, those are questions 11 to 17?
A. Yes.
Q. Are those statements under Nos. 11 to 17 correct?
A. Yes, to the best of my recollection they are.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any other defense counsel that wish to interrogate this witness? Any further cross examination by the prosecution?
MR. FULKERSEN: Just one question.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. FULKERSEN:
Q. Did I understand you to say in answer to one of Dr. Gawlik's questions that the Croatian State was created by Germany, according to your understanding?
A. Yes, the Croatian State was created by Germany.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Colonel, you said just now the Croatian State was created by Germany. On what do you base that statement? Were you there when the Croatian State was being created?
MR. FULKERSEN: I object. Dr. Gawlik is cross examining his own witness.
THE PRESIDENT: He may proceed briefly.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Repeat please, Colonel, on what you based the statement that the Croatian State was created by Germany.
A. In newspaper articles. I wasn't in Croatia at that time at all.
DR. GAWLIK: I have no further questions.
MR. FULKERSEN: I ask that the witness be excused.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be excused. You may be excused.
(Whereupon the witness left the courtroom.)
DP. LATERNSER: If the Tribunal please, I have to admit that to some extent I seem to be in error. I will have to give a brief explanation thereon. The court will recall that the Prosecution, as Exhibit 423, has submitted Document NOKW 1471. On Page 2 of that document there is a table of contents to refer to that rather voluminous document. The prosecution themselves have distributed that document, and this was done before the document books were distributed to the defense. At the time I glanced through the document and found out that the table of contents does not correspond to the contents of the document. I then pointed that out and received actually the photostatic copy of the document, where we have the instrument which I in turn used as an exhibit. It is certain, therefore, that this photostatic copy is not one of the documents which came from Washington. Instead, it is a document which for some time has been in the hands of the prosecution. Thereupon, I am partially in error concerning the statement that I made previously. Here, then, is the photostatic copy which I am herewith handing over to the prosecution.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I think all of this can be resolved with somewhat less difficulties, if Your Honors please. As long as the document itself is in evidence, I ask then Your Honors tear out the four pages which are in Weichs Document Book 1, pages 65 through 68, and put them in Weichs' Document Book 2, after Page 126.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is not certain that it over received any Weich's book. It is somewhat in doubt, but it is of the opinion that it never received it. That statement cannot be correct.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: What we can do, then, between tonight and tomorrow morning is to type up copies which can be distributed to your Honors as additional translation of Exhibit 423, in Prosecution Document Book 17.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. We have now exceeded the allotted time which the Tribunal had hoped to give to the case in its conclusion by one day. I take it that all parties concerned will make a sincere effort to see that we conclude this some time tomorrow morning. I am not making that an arbitrary ruling, but let's endeavor to do that, if possible.
The Tribunal will be in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 22 January 1948, at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal 5 in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany on the 22nd day of January 1948, 0930. Judge Burke presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 5. Military Tribunal 5 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you will ascertain as to whether or not all defendants are present in the courtroom.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all defendants are present in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Burke will preside at this day's session.
DR. SAUTER: If it please the tribunal, before we continue with the rebuttal procedure I would like to ask to be permitted to make a personal statement. At this point I am not speaking on behalf of Lanz or Geitner. I am talking about my own person. When a year and a half ago the International Tribunal concluded the big trial in Nurnberg, the president of the tribunal, Lord Lawrence in the final session expressed his thanks to the German defense counsel, one of whom I myself was and he promised them that the military tribunal would afford them protection and so would the army against any attack which might encroach upon their honor. Soon after that the medical trial started. At that time a member of the American tribunal advised us defense counsel in our offices and we were told we should feel ourselves to be guests of the American people, in the same way as if we were on an American island. When the medical trial drew to its close, the president of that tribunal, President Beal wrote to me on the last day that at all times I had shown such an attitude as was to be expected from a responsible defense counsel and from a gentleman. That was theory and now I would like to tell you something about the actual practice as it was exercised last night. Once again in some American office of this Palace of Justice allegedly a piece of jewelry was stolen. Thereupon the exits of the Palace of Justice were guarded by a detachment of American and Baltic soldiers. Every German lawyer also had to have his brief case thoroughly examined.
The guard felt the clothes and pockets and bags of German defense counsel from top to bottom. The members of American personnel of course were not being searched. We defense counsel are completely powerless against such a humiliation. We can't just stay away from the sessions in order to defend our honor, in that way. We are being told again and again we are members of the tribunal here and therefore we are obliged to carry out our duties. Certainly we have the duties of an official here but not the protection which should be accorded to any official against attacks against his honor and which has been solemnly promised to us defense counsel. We are here and in addition before a large number of spectators we have to suffer treatment as though we were honorless thieves who creep into other people's rooms in order to steal jewelry. We are being treated like people who are first of all asked to a house as visitors and guests and then when they leave the house have their pockets searched. I myself have for more than a year again and again fought against these undignified circumstances but without any success as was proved again yesterday. I know that I am unanimous in this with all my colleagues. I solemnly protest here in full public against the scandalous circumstances. I do this here in Nurnberg as well as across the ocean. This is necessary because in the end either that person becomes a scoundrel who submits to being treated as a scoundrel. We are convinced that all judges of the American tribunal are not in agreement with this reprehensible treatment of German defense counsel, who after all are collaborators in the finding of a just verdict. All they have to do is put themselves in a similar position when they themselves were leaving the Palace of Justice, only to suffer a reprehensible search. I have no doubt when the American people -- when they hear about the circumstances will be unanimous in not agreeing with the treatment here. That, your Honor is what I have to say in public in order to guard our honor because we have no other means to guard our honor.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: I can only state, Dr. Sauter that the conduct you have just described is not the type of treatment the members of this tribunal feel that reputable counsel are to enjoy in this court.
It is indefensible, such a conduct. It is difficult to understand. It is as stupid as it is absurd that respectable members of a decent profession should be subjected to such an indignity. Personally I apologize to you and your colleagues for such an incident. You may proceed.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Yesterday afternoon I said that this morning I would have English translations of additional portions of Prosecution Exhibit 423 to distribute to your Honors. I have them now and will pass them up to you. These additional five pages should be inserted in Prosecution Document Book 17 after page 126 and for convenience purposes should be under page 126a, 126b, and so on to 126e.
DR. WEISSGERBER: (For General Speidel) If the Tribunal please, I object to this document being introduced as an exhibit. My reasons for this are the following. One, this document is to go with documents of the Prosecution Exhibit 423 Page 190 of the English version and as such has been already submitted, at least it is contained in the list of contents on Page 190 of the English text. At that time, therefore the prosecution was in possession of the document, at the time when document book 17 was being submitted. I can see no reason why this document could not be submitted at that time together with the balance of the documents. The document therefore is being admitted too late -- it cannot be submitted now during rebuttal and that is the second portion of my argument. What the prosecution wants to prove by this document is long since known to the Tribunal. the witness Felber who was a prosecution witness had on direct examination by the prosecution on 11 August 1947 commented on all questions of the subordination of the higher SS and police leaders in great detail. It is therefore nothing new that the prosecution is intending to submit now and it is therefore at this stage of the trial immaterial and incompetent. My third point is that I would like to stress the fact this document is already in evidence before this tribunal -- it has been submitted by my colleague Dr. Sauter in Document book Geitner 5 as Exhibit 105.
I can therefore see no reason why this document should be submitted a second time.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: It has been called to my attention that the document has already been presented and this is my interpretation. Am I correct in assuming that?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: That is correct, your Honor ruled that it be admitted as a whole document and I think it perfectly proper to submit an additional document at any time.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The objection is overruled. You may proceed.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Mr Rapp has a few matters to conclude in rebuttal.
MR. RAPP: If your Honor pleases, I would like to now announce that I have before me a letter from the chief of the Defense Procurement Branch, Charles M Pace, First Lieutenant in answer to an inquiry as to how many of the requested affiants have arrived in Nurnberg for cross examination by the prosecution and he said fourteen witnesses were approved for cross examination in open court, on 12 January 1948.
The following action is given for your information. Three witnesses in the Justice jail, nine volunteer witnesses reported to Nurnberg, one witness was cancelled by the prosecution and one witness, Dr. Karl Heinz Rothfuchs, has not answered the telegram sent nor has he reported it to the Defense Center. It was assumed the telegram was delivered, as no answer was received from the telegraph office. Now the people in jail and the nine volunteer witnesses did appear in court and were cross examined. That is a total of twelve. One man we cancelled because he was a defense witness who was in German custody. There would have been some difficulty in getting him here so we withdrew the request in order not to waste the court's time. The last witness, Rothfuchs, did not arrive, I therefore motion that the affidavit which Rothfuchs has given on behalf of defendant Lanz -- I will give you the various exhibits and documents numbers -- be stricken because we are about to rest in our rebuttal and the man has not been produced. Document 59, Exhibit 169 in Lanz Document Book 3, Document 63, Exhibit 15 in Lanz document book 3, Document 65, Exhibit 18 in Lanz document book 3, Document 68, Exhibit 53 in Lanz Document book 3. Document 83, Exhibit 84 in Lanz document book 3, Document 85, Exhibit 86 in Lanz Document book 3, Document 88, Exhibit 170 in Lanz Document book 3, Document 96, Exhibit 21 in Lanz Document book 3, a total of eight affidavits which Rothfuchs has given on behalf of the defendant Lanz and I hereby make the motion since he has not been produced for cross examination, that the rules of the Tribunal be applied and the affidavits be stricken.
DR. SAUTER: On behalf of General Lanz I oppose the motion by the prosecution and move that it be not granted. I request that these affidavits executed by the affiant Dr. Rothfuchs be admitted into evidence.