Concerning the hostage order by General Lanz (40 hostages seized on the occasion of the wire-sabotage in the area of Arta) the witness says as follows and I quote:
"Because of the ever-increasing number of cases of wire-sabotage in the Arta area General Lanz ordered the seizure of 40 hostages from Arta and Fillipias who were jailed by the station headquarters in Arta. As, thereupon, sabotage-actions came to an end, these hostages were released after a while". Lindau, 5 October, 1947. The affidavit is duly sworn to and properly certified by the Buergermeister.
And the third document offered in this connection is the immediately following one in the same document book, Lanz No. III. It is Document No. 65 on page 11 and it is offered as Lanz Exhibit No. 18. This is an affidavit by Dr. Karl Heinz Rothfuchs of Frankfurt/Main. About the subject matter the affiant says that his position was Ic with the 1st Mountain Division in the time between June 1942 and the end of the war. Concerning the order of the Commanding General of the 22nd Mountain Army of 3 October 1943 for the seizure of 40 hostages in Arta, the witness says as follows:
"I am not sure that I can remember the above order, nor do I know whether such seizures have ever been made. I also do not know of any executions by shooting. It is likely that the above order was issued because of the many cases of wire-sabotage in the area of the 1st Mountain Division."
This affidavit has also been duly sworn to and properly certified as to the signature.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Witness, now this brings me to individual cases mentioned in the indictment of 12 May 1947. I'd like to ask you first, what was the situation you found when you arrived on 9 September 1943 and took over the command in Epirus?
A Let me say a brief word about the area which I had to take over. The map which has been handed around gives an approximate impression of the area which became my responsibility. The area is about of the same size as the whole state of Albania, to give a routh comparison. It was about 300 kilometers long and if I was to include my supply roads, which went via Korea in Albania to Fiorina, a small town in northwestern Greece, which has been in the news lately owing to recent incidents in Greek politics, the whole length of the area was extended by 200 kilometers.
The east to west dimension amounted to about 150 or 200 kilometers if you include the islands. This whole area, which is usually called the Province of Epirus and the Ionian Islands, which are in front of it, which included going from north to south, the Islands of Korfu, the Island of Leukas, the Island of Kephalonia, whence the southernmost Ionian Island was not part of my area. This area was very mountainous, most of it was difficult for access and in the whole area, apart from one small railway there were no railways at all, with the result that the town of Joannina, a provincial town, could be reached only by devious detours in motor cars, or else by aircraft.
There were only very few roads in this territory. There was one from north to south which was the only one in that direction and that was our main supply route and line of communication and was, therefore, particularly important for band warfare and acts of sabotage; and there was, from east to west, after the Mecovon Pass had been opened, in the second half of October 1943, one road from Larissa via Trikkala, and the Mecovon Pass, which was said to be 1700 meters high to Joannina, to the coast of the Adriatic Sea at Jgumonica. Then there was another road from Joannina through the southern tip of Albania to Sarande, which was a small Albanian harbor town facing the northern part of the Island of Korfu; and there was another road from Joannina, via Philippias, to Prevesa.
Prevesa was apart from Sarande, the biggest port - if you can call it a big port at all - in the Epirus area.
But, the essential point in all this is that four-fifths of the country is mountainous, most of it desert country and serves as pastures for sheep, there are high mountains, some of which were nearly 2,000 meters high, difficult to access and there the partisans could well hide themselves. Places of human habitation in Epirus consisted of about eight or ten biggish villages or smallish towns about which I shall have more to say later on. Let us say there were a large number of small villages and a large number of isolated farms and isolated houses which were scattered about along the mountain slopes and along the valleys of the rivers all over the country. That, roughly speaking, sketches the territorial conditions so that one can form a general picture of this area.
Q What were the tasks, Witness, which you were given in that area?
A My actual military assignment consisted of working against Allied landings on the islands and the coast of the continent. If I may interpolate this here, our presence in Greece served the only purpose of preventing an Allied landing there. It was the military purpose. In addition there was, I must say, unhappily, this unfortunate fight against the bands. By virtue of the fact that in most of the country the Partisans were active nothing could he done but to fight. That is a subject matter which I shall go into greater detail later on.
Q When you took over your command,Witness, in Greece, what was your first task which you were faced with?
A The first thing I had to do was, as the Italians had surrendered, to disarm them, to watch over their disarming and surrendering their units. When I went to Joannina in the afternoon of the 9th of September the Italian troops there had been ordered by the Italian Army in Athens to surrender and lay down their arms and fortunately the surrendering and disarming of the Italians throughout Greece went without any greater difficulties and incidents. The commanding officers of the Italians obeyed the order of the Italian Supreme Commander in Chief to surrender and to lay down their arms.
We concentrated these arms in certain central depots and the Italian troops were gathered together in certain districts and then according to plan the Italians were transported to railway starions, i.e. they marched there and from there they were transported where to I couldn't say in detail.
Q What was your own personal attitude towards the Italians, Witness, at that time?
A Well, it was understandable that to us, Germans, it was a painful and bitter memory leading back to the first World War when the Italians once again as we said justifiably, had betrayed us. I made every effort, however, to look upon these things in a matter of fact manner and my endeavors were directed towards the ending of having these poor, miserable Italians sent away from my area without too much clamor or difficulties.
Q Can you give us a few details about what you did for this purpose?
A Well, of course I could write a whole book about this. Let me be brief and to the point. Endeavoring as I was to get rid of the Italians an quickly as possible, I supported the staffs of the Italians who had to be used if the whole thing was to run properly, in their work as much an I could; I sent them liaison officers, give them the necessary signal equipment, left them their trucks and cars so that they could drive about and do their work. The corps staff in Joannina asked me when I arrived would I please leave them there in their quarters for a few days more and in their offices. I granted these requests and I, myself stayed with the mayor of Joannina. To be brief I endeavored to expedite and support this matter as much as I could. When the officers marched away they asked me to leave them their cars and their horses and their luggage and all that I granted to them with pleasure. In other words, I attempted to put the whole thing on a friendly and comradely basis; nor did I have any reason to be angry with these people.
These locals were hardly to be blamed.
Q Did you take any measures at that time to look after sick and wounded Italians?
A Well, that naturally is so much a matter of course that I did not even intend to mention it here but since you asked me. The Italians who were ill and inasmuch as they could be transported were sent away on medical lorries to the railway station in Joannina and those of the ill and wounded who could not be transported an Italian hospital was established in Joannina which I frequently visited in the following period of time and they were looked after there just as much as our own ill and wounded were. In that respect everything was done that can be reasonably expected.
Q How did the Italians behave after the surrender?
A Well, the Italians behaved just as anybody else who surrendered; they were only too pleased that the war was over. They were delighted that at long last they could go home. But there were some who went over to the bands; some individuals went over to the bands, quite a few in fact, but in some cases whole units went over to the bands, particularly in Albania. I shall talk about that later. In the summer of 1944 when we went out on operations against gands we always captured Italians among them. And then there was a large number of Italians who abandoned their uniforms, wore civilian clothes and disappeared among the population disguised as civilians so that they would not be taken prisoner or in order to find any other occupation perhaps, even an illegal one.
Q. Witness, in the indictments of 12 May 1947, you are charged, on page 17 of the German version under Count 3 figure 12 (e), that you had given an order and carried it out according to which in the case of every single Italian Division which would sell its arms after the capitulation, give them away, or destroy them one staff officer and fifty men were to be shot. Did you issue that order or pass it on?
A. No, I did not issue any such order. I believe this matter has been cleared up meanwhile.
Q. Were any other measures taken against Italians who, for instance, went over to the bands or supported the bands in any other way or did something offending against capitulation regulations?
A. An order was issued in those days according to which those Italians who were hiding in civilian clothes were to be apprehended and shot. The reason given was that people of that sort would increase the danger coming from the bands; and an order of that description was, as I see here in the documents, issued, passed on by my staff to the First Mountain Division. Unless I am mistaken, it was on 16 September.
Q. Witness, this is the order which is contained in the Prosecution Document Book XIX, on page 9 of the German, and English 15. It is Document NOKW-1118 and is Exhibit 446. Is that the order you mean, General?
A. Yes, that is the order. It is a teletype letter.
Q. You say that this went out from, your staff to the Division?
A. Yes.
Q. Before it went out, did you see that order?
A. I am not quite sure anymore about that. I can only speak about a probability there. The probability is that I did not see it, for the following reason: At that time, there was an actual occurrence and I made an entirely different decision. A Greek lady or woman was once brought to my office by my ADC, who was terribly excited when she came and talked to me And she said that an Italian captain, I believe it was, who had been billete in her house up to then, had been apprehended by a German patrol because he was staying in her house in civilian clothes and as she was terribly worried about the captain since he might be punished, that was why she came to see me, in order to ask me to do nothing against this man.
I told the lady that I would investigate the matter and she would hear from me in due course. I had the matter investigated by an officer immediately, whether the statements by the woman were correct, and I ordered that the Italian officer should wear his uniform again and that as soon as possible he was to be sent to a prisoner-of-war camp, in other words, the same place where all the other Italians were gathered together. And that is how I handled these things, in practice.
DR. SAUTER: Concerning this incident, I beg to offer to the Tribunal a document in evidence which is contained In Lanz Document Book III. It is Document Lanz No. 61. I withdraw that. It is Document 95, on page 61. This is offered as Exhibit 19. It is an affidavit given by a man called Fritz Doeppenschmidt, born in 1893 in Pforzheim. As he states the affiant was a Captain in the Reserve on the staff of 22nd Mountain Army in the period from August 1943 to August 1944. I shall not read the document because it bears out entirely what Gen. Lanz has just told us and it would therefore only be a repetition. The affidavit was duly sworn to and properly certified.
Q. Witness, what happened in actual fact? How were Italians who were arrested wearing civilian clothes treated, as far as your information goes?
A. Well, as far as I know, they were sent to the collecting points for prisoners.
Q. Have you never heard, Witness, that on the basis of the order mentioned an Italian arrested in civilian clothes was shot?
A. Among the documents to which we shall come, about which we shall speak later, there is one incident mentioned where Italians were shot, but it is not clear why they were shot. It is connected with a case of looting but this is prior to the period of time of this order. It therefore cannot have any connection with this order.
I do not know of any other case.
DR. SAUTER: Concerning this set of questions, if Your honors please, I offer a few documents. First, we have Document 94, contained in Lanz Document Book III on page 59 and it is offered as Lanz Exhibit 20. It is a affidavit by Herr von Lenthe, of whom I have already offered other affidavit in evidence. He served on the staff of Gen. Lanz as Ic between September 1943 until the end of the war. The affiant says in the affidavit concerning a teletype of the General Command of the 22nd Mountain Army Corps, dated 16 September 1943, "Italian soldiers in civilian clothes to be shot." As I very well remember, the above order came from Army Group E. It was passed on to the first Mountain Division by the High Command of the 22nd Mountain Army Corps for reasons of haste without the knowledge of the Commanding General, since the latter was absent at that time. When General Lanz learned about this subsequently, he was very displeased about it and ordered that this order be rescinded. I informed the Division immediately by telephone. No Italian, were shot on the basis of this order. The attitude of General Lanz on this occasion becomes clear from the following two cases, which I remember." I need not read the following passages that concern two individual incidents, one of which is identical with the one the witness has already testified to and it bears out what he has said. The affidavit of 27 September has been duly sworn to and properly certified. Another document which I beg to offer to the Tribunal in this context is Document 95, again contained in Lanz Document Book III, on page 61. I beg your pardon, I read this one before and I have offered it to the Court as Exhibit 19. I therefore need hot offer it again. The next document in this connection is an affidavit by Dr. Karl-Heinz Rothfuchs, which is Document 96, contained on page 63 in Volume III, and it is offered as Exhibit 21. It is given by Dr. Rothfuchs, whose position was that of Ic with the First Mountain Division between June 1942 and the end of the war. His affidavit also contains a teletype letter of the High Command under 16 September, and he says: "I cannot reliably remember the above-indicated order to shoot Italians captured in civilian clothes, just as I do not know that this order was passed on to the troops.
The actual practice in the First Mountain Division was that Italians captured in civilian clothes were brought to the prisoners collection center and were sent on to Florina. I consider it possible that perhaps an order of that sort was not executed on the basis of an oral directive of the Corps. General Lanz certainly would have consistently supervised the execution of the order if the order had been upheld."
Signed, and then it has been duly sworn to and certified by the Chairman of the Main Camp Court.
MR. FENSTERMACHEP: I'd like to clarify one point. Rothfuchs here says that the following statements refer to his position as Ic with the First Mountain Division. Withdrawn. Sorry.
DR. SAUTER: My final offer in this connection is the next document, which is Document No. 97 in Volume III - Document No. 97 on page 64, offered as Exhibit No. 22. I have to withdraw that. It is Document 141 in Volume IV, on page 68, and this is offered as Exhibit 22. It is an affidavit by one Bruno Willers. He states that in the war he was the 1st General Staff Officer of the Army Group Southern Greece during September 1943 and then he says, under oath. "After Italy capitulated in September 1943, the Army Group Southern Greece was given an order by the Army Group E, according to which members of the Italian Armed Forces, who were hiding amongst the population in civilian clothes, were to be picked up and killed by shooting. Shortly afterwards this order was revoked and changed to read that those Italians were to be arrested and to be treated as prisoners of war." This again has been duly sworn to and properly certified.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q General Lanz, to continue with your examination, let us talk again about the situation which you found when you took over your assignment in Epirus. You said before that apart from securing the coast you had to watch over the safeguarding of the country against the bands. What can you tell us, quite generally, about the bands?
A When I arrived in Epirus, the bands were very active and lively in that part. Of course I had to spend a little time to make myself familiar with the military chaos, if I can put it that way, because the fight against the bands became known to me for the first time in Greece in that manner. While I was in Russia I fought, as I explained before, at the front; I am inclined to say there I fought a regular war - you had a distinct enemy front opposite you - whereas in band warfare you never have any front, in that sense. Band warfare is everywhere and nowhere, so to speak. I therefore needed a certain amount of time to become informed about what went on. Such informations as we got from the Italians were naturally given without interest, because from the Italian point of view the war was over and their only interest was to go home as soon as possible, which I can understand entirely.
Q What groups of bands existed in your area, witness?
A What we found out was that there were in my area, two groups of partisans - a smaller one, a nationalist group of bands, led by General Zervas; they called themselves Edes - and then a larger one, a Communist group of bands. I believe their leader was called Aris or something like that.
Q And where were these groups found in your area? Can you tell us briefly where they were?
A On the little sketch which I handed to the Tribunal, I put red and blue spots, and this, roughly speaking, shows there they were. The Tribunal will see an area marked in blue, on the whole West and Southwest of Joannina, right down to the Gulf of Arta. When I arrived, this was approximately the area where the partisans of General Zervas were standing. Now in the three circles marked in red, about there we had the Communist bands. This again is very, very rough, of course, in order to give some sort of a conception.
Q Now, General, lest this map be misunderstood, it might be a good idea for you to say and give your comments whether you wanted to show that the bits marked in red were entirely Communist-held, so that, in other words, these areas were not under German rule. Or how are we to understand them?
A What one should understand here is this: The partisan forces were divided up in a number of small groups and they would fluctuate, as I would like to put it, over this area. They roamed about here and there; on one occasion you would find a large group in one corner and then on another occasion you would find them somewhere else. It all depended on what intentions the partisans had concerning an operation; for after all the partisans did not intend to behave like contemporaries, they had a military assignment, and it is on these operational intentions that their grouping depended.
In these areas which I have marked red or blue, there were, originally, Italians, and after that, German troops. Let me put it this way: To put it slightly different, for the layman, they were stationed in a number of small villages which we could talk about as sort of garrisons. Partly these villages were situated in bandit areas and at suitable moments the partisans would attack these villages. We shall discuss these things when we touch upon this problem.
Q Witness, as far as you could gather, roughly how strong were these partisan groups which were in the area under your command.
A When I arrived in Epirus, in September of 1943, I estimated the partisans under Zervas at about 4,000 to 6,000 - but that is a very rough estimate only.
Q What about the Communists?
A The Communists were much stronger. I should estimate that they amounted to about twice or three times that strength. To give you a figure, this included perhaps 10,000 to 12,000 men.
Q And now, what did you observe in your own area and what did you hear from your units about how these partisans fought? Please confine your reply only to the area under your commend.
A Well, you could not describe their method of fighting in one word. It was typical guerrilla warfare which was led. The symptoms of this type of warfare were surprise raids of all types and acts of sabotage...
Q In the area under your command, according to your observations and the reports you had, did the partisans observe the usual rules and customs of warfare?
A That depended; it varied. As for the Zervas partisans they made efforts, to put it quite generally, to observe soldierly forms, but all sorts of unpleasant events occurred all the same. I can give yon the details of this later on, but by and large, the Zervas people did try to observe military forms -- as I would like to put it.
In the case of the Communist bands you could not say that. These people conducted their battles as they saw fit, just as it occurred to them from day to day.
Q Did the partisans in your area, according to your observations, have responsible leadership about them?
A Well, the Zervas partisans were subject to General Zervas, of course, and so far as I could make any observations at all in these things, I am bound to assume that General Zervas, at least, made attempts to keep the troops under his command. Of course, I cannot give you too concrete details because my information is not too detailed there.
You are never quite sure what the enemy is up to. I couldn't call him and ask him all about it.
Q What about the Communist partisans?
A Well, the Communist partisans, you could discern a number of groups, who quite obviously fought independently of one another. That, of course, was necessitated by the geographical position. There have been groups that fought more under their own steam.
Q Were there in your area, partisan units who wore uniforms?
AA distinction must be made between the Zervas people and the other bands. In the case of the Zervas partisans, there were units who wore uniforms. They were obviously those units who fought under General Zervas' own eyes, so to speak, because it is quite a natural thing to gather your best troops around yourself, and that is what happened in that case as well. There were units, no doubt, under Zervas who wore uniforms and who fought in the vicinity of General Zervas.
After all a Greek witness showed us pictures of units in uniform, hut there were also other units in the Zervas group who did not wear uniforms, because they did not have them. These people fought in civilian clothes or semi-civilian clothes; perhaps the coat would be part of a uniform. This is an entirely natural thing, of course.
Q What about the other bands?
A Well, as for the Communist bands, I never contacted any units who wore uniforms. I cannot recall any such event, but I remember a number of reports from Communist areas, because we dealt mostly with the Communist partisans where it said time and again that the partisans were fighting in civilian clothes. They wore some sort of riding breeches and riding boots, and civilian coats, or they wore farmers' clothes.
In any case, no definitely uniformed units existed in that section in the case of the Communist bands.
Q Was it frequently reported to you at that time that on many occasions the bands wore German uniforms, and that German soldiers, who had been killed in battle were usually stripped of their clothes, and were found naked?
A The latter is true. The ones killed in battle, and even the wounded were deprived of their uniforms because the partisans needed the uniforms, they wore them themselves thereupon. That is quite true.
Q Witness, in your area, according to the observations you made, and reports you received, did the partisan units wear uniform insignia, and from what distance was it possible, as far as yon could find out, to identify such insignia if and when they were worn.
A Definite insignia of a uniform character they did not wear for the reason that the partisans had different tendencies. I said there were National partisans and Communist partisans, and the two were at leggerheads. We will have to discuss that in detail later on.
Within the Zervas' partisans, I think I am justified in assuming that a definite insignia was worn. One of the witnesses, the witness Pryandaphilidis, has said so for the record here. I think then they changed their insignia. They wore it at the cap. But it was so small that as he himself admitted - after all he was a witness for the prosecution - he said himself that they could identify the insignia only from 20 or 25 yards, which is about 20 meters, as far as I know.
You can scarcely say that you can identify that from a distance, 20 meters is a distance which would amount to hand-to-hand fighting.
Q Did the partisan units in your area wear their arms openly?
A That varied also. I could not say yes or no to this question. In a battle, of course, they were their arms quite openly, and I am sure that Zervas had certain units under him who always wore them openly. In the case of Communists, that was different. The Greek witness himself stated here that if there was a danger of the troops being encircled or destroyed, they simply dropped their arms and hid them. In other words, I could not answer your question just in one word. It depended upon what period of time it was; it depended on the space, on what types of bands you were dealing with, but by and large, one must say they wore their arms openly in combat, and afterwards, at least, Communist bands hid their arms. Whereas I think in the case of the Zervas partisans, the Zervas people wore them openly. I am nor sure. After all I did not contact them after the battle was over.
Q Do you know, General, that the partisan units frequently mistreated German soldiers who had been taken prisoner, or who had been wounded in the most cruel fashion, and in some cases even killed them?
A Reports of that sort reached me. I recall, for instance, one incident which occurred with the Zervas partisans. Raids had been made against the column of medical transportation. I was there on the spot.
I saw how these people were shot at, and I recall other incidents as well when a Communist band made a surprise attack. We wanted to collect our wounded, but we could not do so because of the shooting by the partisans, and I also remember other reports where the killed and wounded were mutilated.
We have a large number of witnesses' statements in this connection. As a matter of principle, I wish to state this about this problem. The Zervas partisans, generally speaking - there are always some black sheep everywhere, not only with the Germans, but also with other people - as a rule the Zervas partisans endeavored to observe the rules of warfare and respect the Geneva Convention.
I am quite ready to admit that in the case of the Zervas partisans. I want to emphasize that this applies to them only generally, there occurred of course excesses for which evidence existed. In the case of the Communist partisans, one did not gain the impression that they bothered too much about the Geneva Convention. That was a type of warfare in which they fought as they thought fit. Quite obviously, there was no uniform leadership which would have put matters right.
Q Witness, is it correct to say, or is it not correct to say, that in your area, under your command, there were many cases where women and children were used by the bands in support of their operations, particularly for the purpose of espionage? Can you tell us anything about that, on the basis of your own observations or reports you received, or can't you?
A That the bands used women and children for their intelligence service there cannot be any doubt. They were one of the most important transmitters of intelligence. Speaking quite personally, I had experienced a case where women and children faced us with arms in their hands. I will emphasize again, I personally did not, but I know from reports, and I know of affidavits which show beyond a doubt, that women and adolescents fought arm-in-hand, and I have no doubt as to that fact.
Q Witness, my final question to you today concerns the matter of warfare of the partisans. Is it true, or isn't it, that in the area under your command, according to your observations and reports, the partisans, as a matter of principle almost, did not pay any respect to the Red Cross and its dressing stations? Did it ever occur that dressing stations were being fired at; that trucks which showed the Red Cross were being fired at? What can you tell us about that?
A Concrete examples of this type are known to me, namely that dressing stations were attacked; that medical convoys were ambushed; that lorries carrying the wounded were set on fire. I know that.
Q To a large extent you mean, or were these merely isolated instances?
A There were a number of surprise attacks. I, for instance, remember 3 or 4 at this particular moment.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn at this time until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(Court in recess until 9:30 hours November 20, 1947)
Official Transcript of Military Tribunal V, Case VII, in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 20 November 1947, 0930, Justice Burke presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please take their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you will ascertain as to whether or not all defendants in the Courtroom.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all the defendants are present in the Courtroom with the exception of General von Weiche who is absent due to medical reasons.
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Burke will preside at this day's session.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may continue, Dr. Sauter.
DR. SAUTER: If the Tribunal please, before I continue with the examination of defendant Lanz, I would like to have it ordered that the sentry receives instruction to hand me over a book which for my defense. General Lanz has received a book from me which is essential for his defense. I need that book. He wanted to hand the book to me just now but the guard took the book away from me and, although I insisted on having it, he would not let me have it. I think this is a piece of impudence on the part of the guard and I beg the Court to issue an order that the guard must hand the book to me immediately.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Have you any statement, Mr. Fenstermacher, to make concerning the matter?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: No, I haven't your Honor. This is the first I heard about it just now. I did not see the occurrence.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: I assume that the guard is simply following instructions from some source.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: That may be, your Honor. I can inquire about it.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: I wish you would do so.
DR. SAUTER: To continue with my examination of defendant Lanz, -
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Just a moment, Dr. Sauter. It is the feeling of the Tribunal that we desire information on the matter submitted by you at this time.
DR. SAUTER: What happened was that the guard took the book away from me and I asked him to give it back to me. He handed it over to the sergeant. I asked the sergeant to give it back to me and in a highly undignified manner he simply walked away with the book and didn't say one word. A defense counsel need not stand for treatment of that sort, even thought he is a German.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The fact of German nationality has nothing whatever before this Tribunal to do with the administration of justice in a dignified and orderly fashion.
DR. SAUTER: Perhaps the court might be interested -
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: In the absence of prosecution counsel, I think we should withhold further proceedings for the time being.
(Pause)
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If your Honor, please, I talked to the sergeant and the guard in this matter. It is apparently a misinterpretation of what his orders where. Their orders are that no, literature should be exchanged between a defendant and his counsel except outside of the regular conference periods which are held I believe in the prison at given hours between the defendants and their counsel. The sergeant however, said that when the guard took this particular book from General Lanz, he had hot had time to check with the guard as to the reasons for his taking the book and if he had done so and had learned that it was simply an exchange between General Lanz and Dr. Sauter he would have certainly told his subordinate to permit the exchange to take place.