Q Well, now, General, what was the -- what did this order add to what the divisional commanders already knew? As I say, I want to know what the purpose of it was. It must have had some purpose.
AAll I can say is that at that time there must have been frequent acts of sabotage, and now the troops were once again reminded of the order which is quoted in this document.
Q This was just a reminder, nothing more?
A That is how I see it.
Q General, I would like to ask you a few more questions about this document NOKW-1426 which is Exhibit 613. It has already been introduced here. I would like for you to turn to the entry for March 9, 1944. It is on page 4 of the German mimeographed copy, page 5 of the English, and I believe it is page 9 of the photostat.
A 9th of March, you mean? Shall I read it aloud?
Q No, I just want you to notice that passage there where it says: "332 able bodied men in custody; 450 civilians evacuated."
In the first place, what is this operation Bergwiese that they talk about here?
A That must have been one of the routine operations carried out by the 264th Division, and they apprehended these people at first and reported this fact. The report by itself does not give me enough information about the matter. I would have to see more documents about it.
Q. Well, you say it was a routine operation. What was the significance of this distinguishing between 332 able bodied men and 450 civilians? What's the significance of that?
A. They must have been civilians. It says 332 able bodied men and 450 civilians.
Q. Excuse me, General, I didn't hear that last remark.
A. What we are concerned with here must be the district of the bands against which the operation was directed and on that occasion these people were arrested in order to screen them first of all, to see whether there was any suspicion or not, and this included a certain number of able bodied men; and the remaining civilians who in all probability were no longer fit for military service, but who otherwise were sympathizers with the bands -- that had to be gone into and investigated. I do no longer remember where the operation "Bergwiese" took place.
Q. And over and again in documents they make that same distinction. Now, look at the daily report of March 7. Have you found it?
A. Yes, I am looking at it now.
Q. It says: "2,000 to 3,000 civilians were removed; 200 able bodied men taken into custody." The distinction is made between civilians.
THE PRESIDENT: May I suggest to both the witness and the counsel that when the lights fade out that you stop immediately so we will not have anything lost from the sound track?
A. May I continue? I see from these reports on the basis of these names of which I am reminded now that we are concerned with the coastal areas and the islands and that this particular report, in all probability, was dealing with the evacuation orders along the coast. I said this on direct examination; namely, that this evacuation had to be ordered for military reasons and in the course of time it became clear that it would involve a great many people, -- two hundred thousand are mentioned in one case, -- and it became, therefore, clear that all this would not be feasible, which is the reason why things were carried out only at the tactically important places, but I should imagine that these must have been people who had been evacuated; and I also said the other day that in those cases many of those people came back and were sent away again.
I imagine, therefore, that here we are concerned with these evacuation measures and therefore, the distinction is made between able bodied men fit for military service and civilians, because it had been stated that able bodied men should as all the other evacuees, be put at the disposal of the Croatian authorities and the able bodied men were to be inducted into the Croatian Wehrmacht, if possible. A commission consisting of Croatian authorities was to decide on this, and I think the people mentioned here are those under the evacuation measures because at the period of time these orders had been issued. This is the reason why the distinction is made in the reports between able bodied men fit for military service and civilians.
Q. Well, now, if that's the explanation for the distinction between able bodied men and civilians, I suppose that there must be some equality plausible reason for making the distinction between a hundred arrestees and 25 Jews which I find in the report of March 24. It's on pages 7 and 8 of the German mimeographed copy and page 15 of the photostat and page 9 of the English.
A. Page 8, you mean?
Q. No, it is page 15 of the photostat.
A. Yes, it says there: "100 arrestees and 25 Jews were deported to Fiume." Those people were, as I see, involved in the operation Rab. This Rab operation concerned one of the bigger islands not very far from the town of Zara, and the fact that these people should be sent to Fiume to Italy, it seems to me, as far as I am able to reconstruct this matter from memory, that it was caused by the fact that the ships which we had at our disposal for the occupation of the islands came from Fiume along the sea route, and that at that time from Zara, which before the war had already been Italian territory, a large part after the Italian capi tulation had escaped to the islands, and this is how the Jews had taken advantage of this opportunity when the people went back to Fiume to go back to Italy.
If these 25 people were among the arrestees it could have been reported probably: "125 people arrested including 25 Jews"; but what it says there is that they are being listed separately as being transported back to Fiume.
I can still remember that from Zara, which was almost entirely destroyed by air raids, the Italian prefects would send people almost permanently to Italy on a steamer which had been given by the Italian authorities. But a ship like that would be at his disposal only infrequently and those people who had lost their homes and everything else in the areas, were in every single case only too glad to avail themselves of the opportunity to go to Italy because they were Italian citizens.
Q. In other words, your explanation for the transport of these 25 Jews is that they originally came from Italy anyway?
A. That is what I assume.
Q. And you think the hundred arrestees were -
A. They availed themselves of this opportunity in the middle of the operation to use the ships to go back to Fiume, because they came from Fiume.
Q. And you think that the other hundred arrestees mentioned here
A. That they were prisoners.
Q. That is right. They were the people who were taken by this mixed commission of German and Croatian officers that you mentioned a while ago.
A. I think all this must have occurred during the operation Rab when the islands were occupied. I think it was the operation Rab that was at the back of it.
Q. But who were these hundred arrestees?
A. They were arrested during the occupation. After all, this was a tactical operation. They were the so-called enemy forces.
Q. Well, now look at the entry of March 20th which is on page 12 of the photostat -- 392nd Division.
A. Page 12 you mean?
Q. That's on Page 7 of the English. Now, you see that entry?
A. This must be the same thing. These 100 able-bodied men. I don't know whether they were the same ones or not. They may be the same ones,- but they were also given space on the ships in order to send them to Fiume, because if one knows the conditions there, there was only the road along the coast which one could use to go back.
Q. Well, just one thing. Here's what I don't understand. Were there -- you say that these men who were arrested during this operation were turned over to the Croatians either for service in the Croatian Wehrmacht, or for such service as the Croatian Government wanted to use them for?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, why were they shipping them to Fiume? Why were they shipping them to Italy if they were being arrested for the Coratian Government?
A. That doesn't meant that they remained in Fiume. That doesn't become clear from the report. I only assume that because these ships came from Fiume and were at their disposal there. This is clearly a matter of transportation because these people had the opportunity of being transported away on these ships. That is how I imagine it, but I can't construct precise details; otherwise, they would have had to use extra different types of transportation. But as we had these ships at our disposal from the islands where in any case men had to go by sea. They could use this more comfortable route, and from there ran one main road.
Q. General, one last question: You are still positive, in spite of that Daily Report that we saw yesterday, which was made by the 269th Infantry Division, while you were in Russia: are you still positive that your division, while it was under your command, never did carry out this Commissar Order?
A. I am definitely of the opinion that it was not carried out as it was ordered.
Q. Well, I want to hand you two documents here now, NOKW-1569and NOKW-2290, which I want to introduce as Exhibits No. 615 and 616 respectively.
THE PRESIDENT: Which will be No. 615 and which will be No. 616.
MR. FULKERSEN: No. NOKW-2290, Your Honor, will be Exhibit No. 615 and No. NOKW-1569 will be Exhibit No. 616.
BY MR. FULKERSEN:
Q. Let's take NOKW-2290 first. Please turn to the Morning Report of the 20th of November about the 269th Artillery Regiment.
Did you find it, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, there again.....
A. This is a report by the Artillery Regiment to the effect that "two Russian prisoners of the 1st Battery were shot upon the order of the Battalion Commander. These were one Commissar and one Russian high-ranking officer."
Q. Thank you. That's it.
A. There must have been a special reason why they were shot, but that I can't construct from this report here.
Q. Well,-----
A. These people must have done something, and the Battalion Commander, therefore, gave the order on the spot. What had happened I cannot see from this report.
Q. In other words, this is the second Daily Report of that division in which it's mentioned that a political Commissar is shot, without any explanations being given?
A. I said before that things were kept very brief in these reports, and on direct examination I said that there were Commissars who resisted and in some cases called on people to resist, and perhaps it was one of these people.
Q. All right. Now, what is your explanation for this telegram, which is Document NOKW-1569? First, I'd like to ask you if you know what a "Politruk" is.
A. A "Politruk" was the designation for a political Commissar. I believe that is the designation we used at the time.
Q. Now, what's the explanation for that telegram?
A. Which one do you mean? Do you mean the one for the 20th of November? I cannot recall that message. There is no signature of mine or anything else.
Q. Well, let's look and see from whom it comes and to whom it's addressed.
A. It's directed to the 41st Army Corps, the Reinhardt Corps, and it says somewhere there 269th Division, without signature or anything, or any initials. I can't recall this matter at all.
Q. Do you mean to tell me that you can't tell who sent this telegram by looking at that?
A. I can't see that from here. There's no signature or anything else.
Q. But on the right-hand side where it says "advanced," isn't that fairly clear to you that the 269th Infantry Division is meant?
A. Well, there's no signature or anything, and if it's that, then there must have been some reason.
Q. For shooting the 34 Politruks?
A. I don't know whether it actually happened. This is not a document signed by anybody. Whether this occurred in my sector, I don't know. It's simply a note.
Q. But it's a note that apparently comes from the 269th Infantry Division, and it was perhaps submitted through the 269th Signal Battalion wasn't it?
A. But there's no signature. This is not a document which one can identify at once. This could be any note, any piece of paper. I had no knowledge of this matter.
Otherwise I would have initialed it somewhere.
Q. And you simply have no recollection at any time, the whole time you were with this division that any Commissars were ever masscared?
A. No, as I said before.
Q. I want to look at one more document, General. That's NOKW-1135 which is in Document Book XVI. Page 124 of the English and Page 164 of the German. I would like to direct your attention to the last paragraph.
A. Yes.
Q. The first two sentences.
A. The first two sentences you mean?
Q. Yes, after the heading "Employment."
A. "In this connection it may have been assumed that it means of the SS organization, SS Mountain Division "Skanderbeg". was the cause of the increased furnishing of arms and medical equipment by the Anglo-Americans to the partisans in the Albanian and Montenegran border area."
"This assumption is based on the experience gained during the first commitment where the enemy no longer consisted of bandits in the usual sense but of regular troops disciplined, uniformly equipped with British uniforms, and excellently armed, and their very good and flexible leadership of superior strength."
Q. Now, General, there seems to be a slight discrepancy between the description given there and the description that you have given us of the equipment and organization etc. of the partisan units. How do you account for that?
A. All I can imagine here, and I said that before, is that now and then a few small elements of the partisan on some occasions were equipped with uniforms, and that in this case these elements of that division on some combat operation encountered a troop of that sort which happened to have been wearing uniforms and also were led by British officers.
That is a sign of the fact that they were led by the British and they were good officers, whereas otherwise their leaders were rather bad.
Q. Well when he says here, "experience gained during the first commitment?" Does he mean the first commitment of the "Skanderbeg" Division?
A. The SS "Skanderbeg" Division, as I explained the other day, was in my opinion not entirely established, nor did I receive that particular report, because at that period of time I was not present, and I had to be present for this. It may well be that elements which were ready were undertaking a combat operation in contact with such enemy elements. That is entirely possible of course.
Q. Well, how many elements were already in being at this time? Do you recall that? How many elements of the SS "Skanderbeg" Division were in being and organized?
A. I'm not able to tell you that precisely because I did not interest myself too closely in the establishment of the "Skanderbeg" Division, on orders by Field Marshal von Weichs.
Q. Well, were there as many as two regiments?
A. I don't know.
Q. You just have no recollection of what condition the division was in at that time?
A. I have to make my statements on oath; therefore, I cannot give approximate figures. I simply don't know.
Q. If Your Honors, please, I believe I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further examination by any counsel of the Defense?
DR. TIPP: Dr. Tipp for the Defendant von Leyser. If the Tribunal please, I have a few questions on re-direct examination.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. TIPP:
Q General, first. I would like to clear up one of the points which are concerned with the Commissar Order in Russia, because this comes first in the time sequence.
Mr. Fulkersen has submitted to you a few documents on cross-examination. One of them he submitted when he opened his examination, and two he submitted just now. Let me ask you a few questions about these documents.
General, do you recall Exhibit No. 611, which is Document NOKW2207? It is an extract from the War Diary by your division. Mr. Fulkersen gave you that document last Friday.
A I do.
Q Let me ask you two questions about that. On cross-examination it was put to you that the entry of 28th of September 1941, and it says there under the abbreviation "NA 269," that a female Commissar had been shot. Let me ask you a question about that, General. What does the abbreviation "NA 269" stand for?
A That is the Signal Detachment 269.
Q Where was that detachment stationed, General?
A The Signal Detachment, which consists of signal soldiers, where they happened to have been stationed on that particular day, I don't know. It is not a combat unit, but a unit which is stationed in the rear area and kept in contact with the other units through telephones etc. They're not fighting at the front.
Q If the division reports, therefore, that a female Commissar had been shot, but doesn't mean that the lady had been a PW because the detachment was not at the front, as you say. How was it that this female Commissar was apprehended by the Signal Detachment?
A Of course I cannot recall that case, but how I would reconstruct it is, that in this area where the Signal Detachment was stationed -it's a female Commissar we have to do with here--and as far as I am informed I don't think the Russians had any female Commissars in their Army.
It can only be a local female Commissar, as the Signal Detachment was stationed there and as the same report mentioned partisans in that area, an act of sabotage must have been committed against signal equipment. Therefore, she was sentenced.
Q I think that is quite enough for these documents.
General, a few questions about the last two documents in this connection--Exhibit No. 616, the wireless message which was handed you just now. Did I understand you correctly when you said that this wireless message did not show at all who was responsible for its being sent?
A Quite.
Q Did you see from the photostatic copy whether you were ever shown this wireless message?
A I found that out, as my initials are not on that document. No initials at all are on the documents.
Q The text reads, as you know, "34 Politruks liquidated." That, I suppose, if one attempts to decipher the contents of this document, must have been a collective report.
A It appears to be so, yes.
Q And it does not become clear from the document what sort of "Politruks" they were?
A No.
Q Now, perhaps, may I ask you to make it quite clear, General, what sort of "Politruks" did the troops have to deal with at that time? Were they "politruks" or "Commissars" of the Red Army who could, therefore, be described as "old," or were they, in many cases, "Civilian Politruks," as you might conclude from Exhibit No. 611, who, again, according to Exhibit No. 611, took the art of the Partisans?
A That is entirely possible.
Q Would you tell us something about that?
A Well, it's entirely possible, as I said before, I can't conclude anything definite from this wireless message because I don't know it.
Q One word, General, about the other documents submitted to you just now. Exhibit No. 615, which is NOKW-2290. The Morning Report of 20th of November 1941 by the Artillery Regiment 269 was put to you, according to which two Russians prisoners were shot by orders of the Battalion Commander, and they included one Commissar and a highranking Russian officer. It's possible that I wasn't too attentive at that particular moment. May I ask you to tell us once again what your comments are about that report? Why do you believe that those two individuals were shot?
A The Battalion Commander must have had a reason for doing so, but from this brief report I cannot see his reasons at all. What I said was that there were highly extreme murdered Commissars, which was told me by third parties who attempted to resist, who attempted to incite others against us, and on those occasions they were shot by our units in self defense, as I would like to put it.
Q May I ask you a question about that, General? I suppose you still recall the Commissar Order?
A I do.
Q Does the Commissar Order say anything about high-ranking Russian officers' having to be shot?
A No, and that alone is proof that somehow or other something must have occurred. There must have been a specific reason.
Q You yourself do not recall the incident do you?
A No, I don't.
Q May I ask you perhaps, and then we shall come to another chapter, if you, as the divisional commander at that time, were informed of an incident of that sort, did you at that time have nothing else for your information that those brief statements from reports, or were you furnished with other documents and evidence at the time, from which you could see the incidents in greater clarity?
AAt that period of time, which was one of the most difficult military situations, I, as divisional commander, had so much to do with the combat as such, that if I was briefly informed about these matters I would not devote much time to them.
I didn't have the time. On the other hand, if and when these reports were submitted to me, I was certainly informed about the exact circumstances, and then certain definite reasons would be given me as to wipe the thing occurred.
Q What you want to say, General, is that at this time if the report was submitted to you, you would have been in a position to investigate whether the shooting had been properly carried out or not?
A Yes, quite.
Q Another question from the Balkan documents concerning your Russian activity.
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me, Dr. Tipp. Before you proceed with that question we will take our morning recess.
(A recess was taken from 1100 to 1115)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their places.
The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Dr. Tipp.
BY DR TIPP:
Q. General, from the time of your commitment in Russia, there is only one document which is left to discuss. This deals, in order to inform you, with the alleged commitment of Russians PW's to clear up mine fields. The document to which I am having reference at the moment has been submitted as Exhibit 612 which is Document NOKW-2244. Do you remember the contents of this document or shall I show it to you?
A. I remember it.
Q. This document consists of two pages. The second page, as the date shows, comes first chronologically. It is a teletype of the XV Corps to your corps and reads as follows: "OKH has decided that mines except during fighting and in danger zones are only to be searched for and cleared up by Russian PW's in order to save lives," and this order, according to the first page of the document, has been passed on by your division to the 269th Division with the same text.
The covering letter reads: "The above copy," which is what I just read," is passed on for informational purposes." Perhaps you could explain briefly to us, General, whether the commitment as ordered here of Russian prisoners of war for the clearing up of mines ever occurred in actual practice for your own division, and perhaps you would also give us the reasons for your opinion.
A. I have testified yesterday concerning this document and I said that at that time, and a later date, my division was not concerned by this order at all. The conditions of battle, as they applied for my division, did not make this possible. At that time, there weren't any mines there which should have been cleared up or could have been cleared up. Furthermore, this order was only passed on for informational purposes from the OKH and it does not say anything about having to be carried out when the Ia passed it on.
Therefore, I am in no position to tell you anything about it.
Q. If I understand you correctly, General, what you mean is that you received an order from the OKH. You passed it on because it had to be passed on and distributed. And if I furthermore understood you correctly, you said that this order was passed on merely for informational purposes. It was not ordered to carry it out because the application of this order was not feasible in your divisional area for the reasons which you have just given us.
A. That is correct.
Q. With this we can leave your assignment in Russia, General, and we can now deal with the various questions which arise from your assignment in the Croatian area. On this occasion, I want to be very brief. First of all, General, I would like to ask you to clarify for us the fact when you arrived in that area?
A. On the 1st of November, 1943, I took over the leadership of the XV Mountain Corps in Banja-Luka.
Q. Perhaps you would tell the Tribunal quite briefly, in order to connect up with my following questions, whether in this area, as Commanding General of the XV Corps, you had any executive powers. By this I mean executive powers as a matter of principle.
A. No. I have never had any executive powers in this particular sector with the exception, as I have stated on direct examination, at the time while the fighting in Banja-Luka took place. Apart from that, I, as Commanding General of the XV Mountain Corps, had no executive powers invested in me. My staff was merely a tactical operational unit without any territorial authorities and without any judicial authorities.
Q. On cross-examination, General, you were shown a document which dated prior to your tenure in the Balkans. This particular document had some connection with the question to which extent the German Armed Forces and particularly yourself, could intervene in the inner workings of the Croatian Armed Forces.
I would like again to show you this order, which Mr. Fulkersen has shown to you in order to clarify a few questions which in my opinion have not been made quite clear. In this, I am having reference to Document Book X of the prosecution, page 27 of the German text. I am afraid I don't know the English page. Perhaps the prosecution would be kind enough to inform me of the English page. The English page is 34 and the Document Book is X. I would like to show you this document again, General, and I would like to ask you to give us your comments on it. As I have mentioned, this order is dated the 17th of January, 1943. Therefore, it precedes your tenure in the Balkans by ten months. The document was also not submitted as incriminating evidence against you. The document reads:
"The Commander of the German troops in Croatia"--that is the addressee and it is signed by General Lueters. The subject says "Application of executive power." You told us just now that you yourself, as Commanding General of the XV Mountain Corps, had as a matter of principle no executive power. Your predecessor General Lueters in this order talks about the execution of executive power. Maybe you would like to clarify for us why General Lueters was in a position to use executive power while you did not have this right? We will later deal with the order in detail.
A. My predecessor, General Lueters, was as can be seen from this order, the Commander of the German troops in Croatia and as such he had territorial powers and as is shown by this order he also had executive power. When this agency was changed to the XV Mountain Corps, which I as I have said previously took over as late as the month of November, these particular authorities ceased to exist for the Commanding General of the XV Mountain Corps. Therefore, I did not exercise these territorial powers and executive power any longer. What the reasons were which led to this new regulation I am in no position to state.
Q. Since this order has been subject of discussion under direct examination and since it is a basis of the count of the prosecution that the German Armed Forces were in a position to intervene with Croatian agencies, I would like you to look closely at this order, General, more closely than it was possible for you on cross-examination.
I would like to draw your attention to numeral one of this order. It says here: "The areas of the 714 and 718 Divisions are areas of operation." I skip a few sentences which deal with the boundaries of the area and I continue: "The executive powers within their area rest with Major General Fortner and Brigadier General Reichert." In this connection, I would like to ask you, General, is my assumption correct that these two Generals, Major General and Brigadier General, were commanders of the above-mentioned 714 and 718 divisions respectively?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. The order continues to say "All armed Croatian units in the area designated under numeral one are subordinate to the division." In this connection, I would like to ask you, General, does this subordination of the Croatian units under the divisions refer on principle to the relation between the Croatian Armed Forces, and the German divisions or is this special reference which is caused by the facts as established in this order?
A. In my opinion, this is merely so under the fact that they are particularly ordered here. I would like to say that the 714 and 718 Divisions were at no time subordinate to me during my tenure. I had other divisions under me. At that time, the Croatian units, as I have stated yesterday, were subordinate only in tactical respect. I, as Commanding General of the XV Corps, did have no possibility to have judicial or disciplinary interference with the Croatian units.
Q. What you mean to say, General, is that everything that is contained in this order in the following numerals, particularly under number three, where there is talk about replacements and re-organization of the Croatian Armed Forces and also the following numerals, deal with this specific case which is established as the areas of these divisions being operational areas and that therefore the commanders of these divisions are holders of executive power?
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
Q. We will now turn to the time when you held office in this area. You told us that at that time you no longer were holder of executive power. Therefore, did these regulations expressed in this document - by this I mean the right of the German armed forces to give directives to the Croatian armed forces and to interfere with orders of the Croatian Wehrmacht, also to take measures concerning the civilian population - was this right still valid during your time or has it been again suspended in the meantime?
A. This right no longer applied to my person. I expressed this right when I said my staff was a purely operational staff. The territorial powers were invested in the territorial commander when the 15th Mountain Corps was established, and that was General Glaise-Horstenau in Zagreb. He was the man in whom these authorities were vested, no longer the commanding general of the 15th Corps.
Q. In order then to conclude this order of the 15th of July, 1943, I believe this then was an order which only applied to a certain time period and not a basic order which was to establish the relation between the German armed forces and the Croatian armed forces.
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, one individual question which might be of importance in the further course of examination. It says under Figure 3 of this document that Ustasha units are to be inserted into the Croatian Landwehr and they are to be organized into units below battalion strength. If I remember correctly, General, under direct examination you said that the Ustasha units existed next to the Croatian home guards. Is that correct?
A. No; it is not quite correct.
Q. I might then assume that the order was not carried out to this extent?