First of all Document 410 on page 52 of the English contains a report from the Military Commander Southeast to Army Group F, and Document 411 also contains a report on the first two pages from the Commander Southeast to the Army Group F; why did the Military Commander southeast report to Army Group F if he was an equal?
A. The Military Commander Southeast was obliged to report to Army Group F, and for technical reasons this form was chosen, so that version did not have to be established for the same thing. It was much more simple for the Military Commander southeast if he recorded the events in his area in one report, which went to our office and other offices as well.
Q. Witness, Now to Exhibit 415 on page 50 of the German and page 64 of the English. From this exhibit it can be seen that the Commander in Chief Southeast himself passed on reports about reprisal measures to the OKW. Now you told me before that the Military Commander Southeast, as far as reprisal measures was concerned, was not subordinate to the Commander in Chief Southeast; how do you account for this?
A. Our reports included the most important events in the area. Today or yesterday a large number of reports were mentioned by you which concern the Italian occupied area, and also their reprisal measures, commitments to concentration camps, mopping up measures, etc.
Q. Have you read the reports of the Military Commander Southeast, which went to the Commander-in-Chief Southeast?
A. In any case they were reported to me, if I didn't read them myself. In any case I knew about them.
Q. And what was reported; what was reported to you?
A. The most important part of the reports.
Q. And was that for you?
A. In the first place of course the tactical factors, because the military commander Serbia was subordinate to us in that respect.
Q. Also the reprisal measures?
A. The reprisal measures were also reported to me, in any case certainly the most important ones.
Q. And who ordered the reprisal measures?
A. They were ordered by the Military Commander Southeast, Felber.
Q. Did Felber make inquiry with you before these reprisal measures were ordered or with the Commander in Chief Southeast?
A. With me, not at all, and as to the Commander in Chief, the Field Marshall von Weichs, as far as I know was not, because this wasn't necessary.
Q. In Exhibit 410 and 411 there are also orders of the military Commander Southeast signed Felber; did you know these orders?
A. No, of course I didn't know the orders. They went from Felber to his subordinate offices.
Q. These offices were not subordinate to the Commander in Chief Southeast?
A. No, the Administrative sub-area Headquarters, the local headquarters were only subordinate to the Military Commander Serbai.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Your Honor, it has just been pointed out that mistake in the translation has been made in the testimony of the witness, when he seated "vortragen", "Molden", informieren, The word "report" is always used.
I think the difference doesn't come out in this way. You said witness, for instance, that the reports of the Military commander were partly orally reported to you.
A. "vortragen" means that they are told to me orally, summarized, partly with the actual text. This is an oral report.
JUDGE BURKE: Does this clarify the situation pointed out?
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: I am satisfied.
Q. Witness, in Exhibit 416, there is an order of the Military Commander Southeast to the German Plenipotentiary General in Croatia about the recruiting of labor; in Croatia 3,000 workers were recruited, did you receive this order?
A. This went to the Quartermaster General of my staff, but I probably didn't now about it. The recruiting of labor in Croatia is completely legal.
Q. Why?
A. Because it is a recruiting, and here it talks about payment, and providing the workers with food, and providing of the families, etc. and in addition this certainly happened with the agreement of the Croatian Government.
Q: And Croatians were recruited?
A: Yes.
Q: Witness did you know the daily reports of the military commander Southeast to the Commander in Chief Southeast, which are contained in exhibit 418 on page 77 of the English document book. So that you see the complete document, I will submit the original to you.
(The document is handed to the witness)
Were the reports made in this form at that time and did you see them as you see them now in the document book?
A: These reports in the original here and also the photostat copy have no signature nor initials, therefore I don't know whether they were actually presented in that form or whether they were first drafts or something like that. There is an initial on some of them but no sender is mentioned, therefore I cannot say any more about it apart from the fact that part of the report falls within the period of my absence.
Q: In these reports the case of Kalavrita is mentioned. This gives also the reprisal measures following it; can you remember this incident?
A: Yes, the incident of Kolavrita, the attack and murder of German soldiers and the begin of the corresponding counter measures took place while I was absent, but I remember that when I returned an inquiry was made but I really don't know why and what the contents were.
Q: And what was the reason, according to your knowledge, for these reprisal measures of Kolavrita?
A: The reason was the murder of between 70 and 80 German soldiers, that is of about one whole company.
Q: Exhibit 419 German page 75, English page 104, this contains a service regulation for the Higher SS and Police leader in Greece; did you know this service regulation?
It is dated 7 September 1943 and came from the Chief of the O.K.N.
A: It is possible that I knew this service regulation but I was not interested in it as the Higher SS and Police leader was in no way subordinate to the Commander in Chief Southeast.
Q: To whom then was the Higher SS and Police leader in Greece subordinated?
A: He was subordinate himself to the Military Commander of Greece. I don't know the detailed conditions, but I am convinced it was the same as in Serbia and that he too in essence had his direct channel to Himmler, but that is only an assumption.
Q: What does it mean that the Higher SS and Police Leader in Greece for himself was subordinate to the Military Commander in Greece?
A: Well, I cannot say in detail because I don't know anything about the detailed conditions of subordination of the Higher SS and Police leader.
Q: Did you know the Higher SS and Police Lender in Greece at that time?
A: No, I knew his name, I never saw him. I only met him for the first time in the Dachau camp.
Q: Now under exhibit 423, this is German page 89 and English page 123, "Basic Orders for the O.K.W." Did you receive them at that time.
A: Yes, I certainly knew these orders.
Q: Do they bring anything essentially knew about the question of combatting the bands?
A: No, this only says that troop commanders in those areas on application could be given executive power, that is executive power can be transferred from the territorial offices to the troop offices in case of large scale fighting or in the case of enemy landings.
Q: Therefore in the case of the Commander in Chief Southeast this would have meant that the Executive power of the Military Commander Southeast would then go over to the Commander in Chief Southeast?
A: No, that is not necessarily meant because here this possibility is considered for within individual territories as Albania and Montenegro, but as far as I know during my time suck a case never occurred because no landing or fighting took place in the sense of this order.
Q: And now we will go on to document book 18 of the prosecution. First of all I repeat the numbers of those exhibits which according to you list you did not know at that time and saw for the first time in this trial. These are Nos. 424, 425, 426, 431, 436, 437 and 441; is that correct?
A: Yes, I did not know these.
Q: And now turn to exhibit 432 on page 12 of the English document book and compare them with exhibits 433 and 434. These are daily reports of the Military Commander Southeast to Army Group F; did you know these?
A: Yes, I possibly knew these reports.
Q: Then why did they go to the Army Group F, to the Military Commander.
A: For the same reason mentioned before.
Q: Now would you please repeat briefly the reasons?
A: As Military Commander of Serbia with regard to questions of the securing of the country was subordinate to the commander in Chief Southeast as Military Commander Southeast, that is as territorial commander for the whole of the area, he was obliged to report to the Commander in Chief Southeast.
Q: Please take exhibit No. 435, page 22 of the English document book, page 26 in the German. These are daily reports to Army Group F; did you know all these reports too?
A: No, if I knew them at all then. I knew only the reports on page 1 because the other reports fall within the period after my service in the Southeast.
Q: When did you leave the Southeast?
A: On the 5th of March.
Q: And the year?
A: 1944.
Q: And where did you go to?
A: I had to prepare for the entry of the German troops into Hungary.
Q: And you did not go back again to the Southeast?
A: Only to fetch my baggage and to say goodbye, but after this time I did not do any work anymore, in the Southeast area.
Q: And who was you successor?
A: My successor was General Winter.
Q: And had General Winter already deputized for you before?
A: He deputized for me. He started his deputizing a few days after the 5th of March but with the certainty that he would be my successor, because it had already been stated very clearly to me that I would not return and as of the 15th of March I was officially taken from that office.
Q: In Hungary did you receive knowledge of the events in the Balkans?
A: No, apart from perhaps individual talks I had with officers of the staff who were passing, but no official knowledge. 4391
Q: What about the reports contained in exhibit 437, page 32 of the English document book?
A: Exhibit 437, here the first reports happened after my time and the others are reports which also did not go to the Commander in Chief Southeast, that in they could not have possibly come to my knowledge.
Q Witness, now to the next prosecution document book, Document Book XIX; first of all, those exhibits -- that is, the documents from which you had no knowledge during your activities in the Southeast -according to your list, those are exhibits 445, 446, 448, 450, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456 and 457. Are those the correct numbers?
A Yes, those are the correct ones.
Q Now, please take Exhibit No. 447, German Book page 10, English page 17; what kind of reports are these?
A These are excerpts from reports of the Commander in Chief Southeast to the OKW and /or the OKH. They always had the same text. Of course, I knew these reports with the exception of the days when I was absent.
Q Are these reports reproduced in their entirety in the document book?
A No, I have already said they are excerpts. They have the same mutilations about which a have frequently spoken before.
Q Is the same the case in Exhibit 449 in German Document Book page 35 and the following pages and in the English document book page 37 and the pages following?
A Yes, that's the same.
Q This contains a report of the 27th of June 1943 and this is an excerpt from page 30 of the original. In the German document book it is page 12 of the copy which is in the document book; it is page 43 of the English, there is a report and the last sentence reads: "Enemy dropped explosive fountain pens." Were these kind of reports frequent?
A Yes, these kind of reports often came in but I can't give the number.
Q. And then to the report of the Commander in Chief Southeast dated the 14th of the 7th, 1943: This is an excerpt from page 59 of the original, on page 49 of the English document book. In the last paragraph there it says: "Many surprise attacks and forced deliveries of food. Sixty Communists were shot for shooting at German hospital train and sabotage on line Lescovac-Ladenovac Daily reports for 15 and 20 June.
Was this an exceptional case, that hospital trains were shot at?
A No, such cases happened frequently. I also remember that -I think in the Peloponnesus -- a column of the Swiss Red Cross was attacked and plundered.
Q And in the report -- the one after the next -- of the Commander in Chief Southeast dated 18th of July 1943 it states on page 50 of the English Document Book under the last paragraph: "Italian occupied territory: During operation in Yokovo Mountains. 463 band suspects were arrested and brought to a concentration camp." Who ordered these arrests?
A I don't know in detail but an Italian office -- this was Italian occupied territory and the sovereignty of the Italians was maintained even if possibly later on for a certain time there was a tactical subordination.
Q But that was before the Italians fell off?
A Yes, yes, because then it wasn't occupied any more.
Q And what sort of concentration camp was this?
A This could only be a concentration camp set up by the Italians.
Q Now, please take the daily report of the Commander in Chief Southeast dated the 26th of the 7th, 1943, on page 65 of the German, page 54 of the English. There is states under figure "2":
"According to reliable sources, DM has instructed his subordinate leaders in Boznia and Dalmatia on the 26th of the 7th to carry out the following operations immediately in case expected insurrection in Italian army takes place: disarming of all Italian units, distribution of Italian weapons to DM units, recruiting of Jugoslavian in force personnel, later destruction of all traffic roads, occupation of the towns and mopping up operations in coastal area, internment of captured Italians and treatment according to International Martial Law."
First of all, what does "DM" mean here?
A "DM" is Draha Mihajlovic.
Q And then another question. Is the intention of Mihajlovic which is reported here with regard to the disarming of the Italians by DM units in case the Italians fell off confirmed by another report?
A I remember that reports with similar contents frequently came in during this period.
Q And then to the daily report of the Commander in Chief Southeast dated the 24th of August 1943; this is on page 79 of the German document book and on page 62 of the English. This daily report of the Commander in Chief Southeast, dated the 24th of the 8th, reads under the heading, "Area North of the Save "?
"While training east of Ilok the 3rd Company of Reserve Engineer Battalion 46 was attacked during rest period by Communist bands (400?) with heavy weapons: 61 dead, some of them mutilated, 5 wounded, 28 missing, 18 escaped; investigation initiated."
Mutilations in such cases by the bands -- were they something unusual?
A No, unfortunately, they occurred frequently. In the middle of September in the same document there is a similar report from Crete.
Q Do you mean the report of tho 13th of tho 9th on page 84 of the German document book?
A Yes, the 13th of the 9th, page 64 of the English Document Book.
Q In the daily report of the 13th of the 9th which follows shortly after, it states under the heading, "Commander of Salonika Agean," Near Rhodes a number of Italians, approximately 1,000 men, went over to the bands."
A This is one isolated report about incidents which happened, unfortunately, frequently during this period and which we had feared and which illustrated the enormous danger which existed then and which simply made it unavoidably necessary that the Italians should be completely disarmed as soon as possible.
Q This leads us back to the falling out of the Italians and I would not ask you to look at Exhibit 447 on page 10 of the German document book and page 17 of the English. This report, page 6 of the original, from the 23rd of the 9th, 1943, is a report from the Commander in Chief Southeast to the OKW:
"Mopping up of Kephalonica under way. General Gandin with his staff captured.)
Now, do you still remember the case cf General Gandin?
A Yes, this was a special affair. As far as I can remember, the OKW and Hitler had placed great hopes on Gandin who was formerly in the Commando Supremo. Hitler hoped to win him over for a new Mussolini Government, but Gandin's attitude was perhaps the most malicious and indecent we ever experienced with the Italians. According to the Fuehrer order and according to the capitulation of his Army Commander in Chief he was requested to give up his arms and I think he also declared himself ready to do this, because, in any case, I know that the German troops who were nearing Kephalonia at that time, in spite of his agreement to give up his weapons, were attacked and shot at; and so that is how the necessity arose of taking the island of Kephalonia in combat. That was of special importance at that time. Kephalonia lies south of Korfu and is one of the islands which exactly faces the Italian mainland at a distance which for a modern army moans only a stone throw.
A. I remember that, at that time, Hitler was especially furious about Gandin and the actions of his troops on Kephalonia. He ordered that the whole occupation of Kephalonia was to be shot to death. This order by Hitler was passed on with a calming and rather modifying note rather in the sense that, "first of all take Kephalonia. and then we'll see what happens." And then the request which was expected came and was passed on that this Hitler order should be rescinded because, as far as I remember, that was a question of a few thousand men. Thereupon, Hitler's order was rescinded and he ordered that all the officers were to be shot to death. This order was not carried cut either, but General Gandin was shot, and, as far as I remember, a few officers of his staff who were particularly guilty for the resistance which I described before, and they were shot after summary court martial. And then it was reported, as can be seen from the document here the shooting of General Gandin and officers of his staff and thereupon there were no further directives from above. They were obviously calm again.
Q. Witness, you said that the Italian High Command had been in agreement with the handing over of arms and also that General Gandin had received this directive from his own Commander in Chief.
A. Yes, agreement is perhaps rather too weak. There was a regular capitulation which had been concluded between the Commander in Chief of the XIth Italian Army and the German office commissioned to do this.
Q. And, after this capitulation, did the Italians still remain on occupation power?
A. No, that was impossible. The rights and duties of an occupying power fell off automatically with the capitulation of the Italians and went over to the German occupation power.
Q. And if now Italian officers and soldiers refused to give up their weapons which had been ordered by their own commanders and went on using their arms against the Germans or gave them to the bands, then in your opinion this is a violation of the laws of war?
m 4397
A. Yes, certainly because a capitulation which is correctly and officially concluded binds every single man in this sphere of capitulation to the provisions of it, and a man who goes on fighting thereby becomes a franc-tireur.
Q. And also one who keeps his arms and doesn't deliver them up or who even gives his arms to the bandits?
A. I am not well enough acquainted with legal matters to know whether the same paragraph applies to this as well, I would rather assume: The Italians, after the capitulation, were PW's and PW's are treated according to the same provisions of the law and come under the same legal provisions as the power which holds the prisoners, and if a German soldier had given his arms to the bandits then, without doubt, he would have been sentenced to death.
Q. Witness, now let us go back to the extensive document which contains the many Daily Reports. This is Document No. 449, starting on German Page 35, English Page 37. The last time we stopped at the Daily Report of the 15th of September 1943. We will now look again at the Daily Report of the 5th of October 1943, which is found on page 90 and page 91 of the German Document Book, and Page 68 of the English Document Book. And now, at the end of this Daily Report of the 5th of October 1943, it is reported as reprisal for murder of a regimental commander and sabotage of telephone lines a village Akmotobok, entirely destroyed, all inhabitants shot."
A. On the day when this report was received, this is a report from Army Group E to the Commander in Chief Southeast, - I was absent and was in Albania, and Montenegro on a reconnaissance trip.
Q. Well then did you have any connection at all with the incident and did you know anything about an inquiry to your office as to the way in which this murder should be avengened?
A. No.
Q. And now, please turn to the Daily Report of the 29th of November which is on Page 98 of the German Document Book and Page 73 of the English Document Book.
This Daily report of the 29th of the 11th Corps it states, "As reprisal for a band attack on Tripolis-Sparta Road, Daily Report of the 26th of the 11th, 100 hostages shot at the place of the attach." was this incident reported to you or any questions in connection with it?
A. No, from the 19th of November until the 10th or the 11th of December I was absent.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: At this point the Tribunal will adjourn until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 9:30, 16 October 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List, et all, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 16 October 1947, 0930, Justice Wennerstrum presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V. Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain as to whether or not all the defendants are present an the court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all the defendants are present in the court except von Weichs who is still in the hospital.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed with the examination.
HERMANN FOERTSCH - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q. Witness, yesterday evening before the recess I asked you about those documents contained in document book XIX of the prosecution. Now, please take Exhibit No. 452. This is on page 124 of the German and page 99 of the English document book. This belongs to those documents which, according to your list, you learned of first in this trial. Nevertheless, I would like to ask you the following questions about it. In this teletype which is sent from the 1st Mountain Division to the Mountain Jaeger Regiment 99 the so-called "Operation Treason" (Verrat) is mentioned. Did you know anything at all about this operation and what does "Operation Treason" mean?
A. I only remember that the "Operation Treason" concerned the capture of the Island of Korfu.
Q. And was that in connection with the Italian capitulation?
A. Yes, there was some fighting for Korfu.
Q. In the radio message of the 1st Mountain Division to the Divisional Commander I-a, at the beginning of Exhibit No. 452, the following sentence is contained:
"By order of high authority no prisoners are to be taken during Operation Verrat. which high authority is referred to here?
A. I can't say because this radio message wasn't known to me before and I can't find any explanation for it. I found in the prosecution documents that when Korfu was captured prisoners actually were taken because in one passage it states something about the transport of Italians from Korfu is reported.
Q. From the teletype of the division to the Mountain jaeger Regiment 99 on the first page of Exhibit 452 the following is stated:
"For Operation Treason there will be brought up to Igumenica on the 24th of the 9th in the evening one company 2nd Regiment Brandenburg (South Tyrolians in Italian uniforms and with Italian arms)."
Did you know anything about that, about the fact that the Brandenburg Regiment committed in action Tyrolians in Italian uniform and with Italian arms, against the Italians in Korfu?
A. No, I didn't know anything about that. The committment of one single company isn't the affair of an army group staff.
Q. Now, witness, Document Book XX of the prosecution.
Here the greater part of the exhibits contained in this book were not known to you before this trial. Therefore, I will just mention now those exhibits which were known to you. Those were 470, 475, 476, 477 and 473. Is that correct?
A. Yes, but I think 467 also belongs to those--because of the date it seems rather doubtful to me--which could have come to my knowledge.
Q. I just want to ask you about this exhibit. Please turn to Exhibit 467 on page 42 oi the German and page 56 of the English document book No. XX. On the second page of this document there is a report which, next to the signature, contains the date, "22nd of August 1944." That is a time when you were no longer in the Southeast. On the other hand, the heading to this report says: "Daily Report Commander in Chief Southeast on the 9th of October 1943." I submit to you the original of this exhibit. How can these two things be explained, that a daily report of the 9th of October 1943 was signed on the 22nd of August 1944. Otherwise it can't be explained here because between the heading and the signature there is no other signature.
A. I know that. I have looked at the original; it is incomprehensible to me because the first four pages of the original contain a detailed report of the 31st of August 1944.
Q. That is even later than the date by the signature.
A. And then comes a page with a heading which is also contained on the second page: "Daily report of the Commander in Chief Southeast from the 9th of October 1943." This page on the original has no signature and no identification and then the next page is dated 22nd of August 1944. That is obviously a part of the line given here again. How this page gets in here is not clear to me and I really can't explain it.
Q. From the incidents reported in this document can you assume that this refers to parts of two quite different documents?
A. I see that the document "9 of October 1943?" is in agreement with the contents because they talk about the transport of Italians back from the area of the Commanderin-Chief Southeast. From the total figure transported, for instance, the total from the 9th of October 1943, 9,659 officers, 225,616 men -- and then another 1,000 officers, and then a little more than 26.000 men. This page must therefore contain incidents from October 1943. As I said, it has no signature and has no connection at all with the other pages.
A. Thank you. That is sufficient.
Q. Witness, now please take Exhibit 470 on page 48 of the German and 64 of the English document book. These reports from the Commander in Chief Southeast to the OKW are dated the 7th of November, from the 17th 20th and 29th of November. Did you know these reports?
A. The first two named probably became known to me. The last two named are not known to me because they took place while I was absent.
Q. And then Exhibit No. 475, page 70 of the German, page 99 of the English document book. Did you know about the dally reports contained herein?
A. They were probably known to me up to the ones between the 29th of November and the 6th of December, because I was absent during that period.
Q. And now Exhibit No. 476, German document book page 76 and English page 107; these are daily reports from the Commander in Chief Southeast from the period between the 1st and the 23rd of December. Now, I would like to draw your attention to the report of the 23rd of December. This is on page 83 of the German document book. That's page 40 of the original, page 119 of the English. This is a report from the 23rd of December. Did you know this?
A. Yes, I probably knew it because it is a report which went from us to the OKW.
Q. It runs as follows: "According to enemy reports, the Jugoslavian Liberation Army lead by Tito is described as part of the Allied forces in the Southeast. Radio Beromuenster reports Marshal Tito was appointed in Cairo as an Allied Commander. The Allied Military Command has prepared plans to intensify operations of Jugoslav partisans and to give increased support to Allied units operating in Jugoslav Liberation Army is referred to as an integral part of the Allied Forces fighting in Southeastern Europe."
Now, why was this report given in this form to the OKW?
A. This report was probably monitored by us and since it concerned the Southeast it was passed on to the OKW.