A. Kerbler said that the partisans didn't shoot him again with a pistol shot to kill him off, but just kicked him and then the partisans went away and disappeared from the valley; he remained there for a certain time, and then he crawled into a nearby cornfield where he collapsed unconscious again. A short time later he then heard German voices. This was probably the search squad sent from Tupola, and he then called for help and was found by this squad and taken to a hospital.
Q. And how were the dead men found, the ones who were shot?
A. According to the description, the shot men were lying next to each other.
Q. How were they found?
A. They were found by the fact that Kerbler told the search squad that in the valley described by him there were still some more comrades, and then the squad found them.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: The court is in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 8 October 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List, et all, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 8 October 1947, 0930, Justice Wennerstrum presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, have you ascertained whether or not all the defendants are present in the court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all defendants are present in court except the defendant von Weichs who is hospitalized for an indefinite number of days.
THE PRESIDENT: Are we ready to proceed?
You may proceed, Dr. Laternser.
HERBERT KRAGE - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for defendants List and von Weichs):
Q Herr Krage, yesterday, just before the recess, we were talking about the way in which the shot German soldiers were found. I don't know whether you finished answering this question but please let's do it again and tell us in which manner the shot German soldiers were found.
A The shot German soldiers wore found partly lying beside the vehicles on the road and partly in a valley lying next to each other.
Q And then did the battalion make a report on this?
A Yes, I drew up this report myself.
Q To whom did this report go?
A This report went on the one hand, because of the double subordination, through our signal service to the regiment and in this way also to the army signal officer and also in this way to Army High Command XII: and then the report also went, for reason of the territorial sub ordination, to the Military Commander in Serbia; and, if I remember correctly, it also went to the Higher Command 65th, subordinate to the Military Commander in Serbia, which partly shared the office rooms with us.
Whether it went to other offices also I can't remember any more.
Q When approximately was this report sent out?
A Of course, I can't remember the exact date today, but I assume with certainty that it wasn't drawn up before four days after the attack.
Q Why do you assume that?
A I assume this because only a few days after the attack the first survivors came back to the battalion and also, because naturally on the first day after the attack the battalion had other affairs to look after than to deal with the detail about losses of equipment, et cetera. Furthermore the reports of the companies concerned certainly had to be checked because the reports which I have already mentioned didn't only contain facts about the attack itself but also definite statements about all losses of men, vehicles, signal equipment and other material, arms, et cetera and, therefore, the report can scarcely have been drawn up until the 4th day after the attack and sent to the office which I have mentioned.
Q Before this report was drawn up were the persons concerned interrogated?
A Yes, on the next day and the day after that the first survivors came back and those were the men who escaped being captured.
Q You said that the report was sent off a few days after the attack. When was the attack?
A The attack, I notice from a diary note, was, I think, if I am not mistaken, on the 2nd of October 1941.
Q And when do you think, then, that the report was sent out approximately?
A The report was drawn up probably, in my estimation, about the 6th of October and then, of course, a certain time passed before the report from Belgrade reached our regiment near Athens where it was lying at that time, as far as I remember.
Q And then what was the final result of your investigations?
AAs far as I remember through the two attacks we had certainly 22 dead; in addition about 3 or 4 wounded and missing, possibly, in my estimation, about 15 or 16.
Q I think I already asked about this yesterday. Did the missing persons come back?
A I only remember that a small part of the missing persons came back and I think there were about 3 men from the Ustja unit who, by executing a commission, had made themselves independent and, therefore, escaped being captured.
Q And then were reprisal measures ordered?
A Yes.
Q Who gave this order?
AAs far as I remember, this reprisal order was given by the Commanding General in Serbia at that time, General Boehme, I think.
Q How did you receive knowledge of this order?
A Whether the report came in a written form or orally to the battalion, I can't say with certainty today but, in any case, I heard about it.
Q Who had to carry out the reprisal measures?
A The order contained the direction that the execution should be carried out by the companies who had sustained the losses.
Q Who executed it?
A Since the company officer of the one company concerned, Lieutenant Lehr, was himself killed in the attack, the company officer of the second company which had suffered losses, was made responsible.
Q And then who carried it out?
AAs I have already said, the company officer of the 3rd company did this with a commando composed of members of the two companies concerned.
Q Did this company officer make a report about it later on?
A I think I can remember that the company officer, after the carrying out of two separate executions on two separate days, made a report on this.
Q How many Serbs were shot?
A the figure I remember is between 400 and 500. I think on each of the two days around about 200 executions wore carried out.
Q Did the company officer report to the battalion commander about this?
A Yes, I remember that the company officer, after the two executions had been carried out, reported that he and his men who were commissioned to carry out the executions, because of the extraordinary mental burden, were in no position to carry out further executions. Because of the extra heavy assignment of the battalion and for the losses which they had previously suffered, there was hardly any possibility to change the participants in this.
Q And were further executions undertaken?
A No, further executions by the units concerned or by the units of the regiment were not undertaken.
Q It is maintained here that because of this incident 2,200 Serbs were shot. You say 400 to 500. Can you say anything about these contradictions? Can you give some explanation?
A It is correct that the order about the shooting of 2,200 Serbs was given but, at any rate, by the units concerned, the order wasn't carried out because, by reason of a representation made for the reasons which I have mentioned, the executions were discontinued.
Q What kind of persons were the men shot?
AAs far as I know, the men shot were partisans who were captured and who were in a hostage camp -- I think in Belgrade or near Belgrade.
Q And who made these partisans available, these captured partisans?
A I remember that the company officer commissioned to carry out the executions, received these partisans from the Security Service in Belgrade.
Q Did the battalion to which you belonged carry out further shootings later on?
A No, that was the only case.
Q And later on, too?
AAt any rate, as long as I belonged to the regiment.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further examination by other defense counsel? Apparently not, so you may proceed with the cross-examination, Mr. Fenstermacher.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Ok, your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Mr. Krage, when did you join the army?
A I came to the 12th Army in October 1939.
Q But when did you first join the German army?
A In the war, at the beginning of the war, the beginning in 1939 I was called up.
Q How old were you at that time?
A I was 24 years old at that time.
Q Had you been in the Hitler Union before that?
A No.
Q Were you ever a member of the Nazi Party?
A Yes, but I have been de-Nazified.
Q When did you first join the Nazi party?
A I was transferred into the Party in May 1937.
Q How do you mean, you were transferred into the Party?
A I didn't carry out the entry into the Party myself, but as a student, as a member of the motor corps, by reason of an order of it, when the Party was opened again in May 1937, I was transferred into the Party.
Q What motor corps was this that you belonged to?
A The so-called NSKK; that is the National Socialist Motor Corps.
Q Did you join that corps voluntarily?
A No, as a student I received the order to join some kind of formation of the NSDAP and for this reason, because I had a driving license, I joined the NSKK.
Q And then in 1937 you were automatically made a member of the Party without your doing anything further about it?
A Yes.
Q Were you in full sympathy with the full program of the Nazi Party when you joined in 1937?
AAs far as I can remember, in 1937 any kind of criminal intentions of which we have mostly heard about after the war, were not known at that time and, even if I had rejected these things, it wouldn't have meant anything else except professional suicide and, after all, I wanted to take my examination and to become an official.
Q What was your profession at that time?
AAt that time I was still a law student.
Q Did you ever become a lawyer?
A No, through the war my studying was considerably interrupted and only now I am in preparatory service to taking the Assessor examination.
Q Were you familiar as a student with the Nurnberg Laws of 1935 which discriminated against the Jews in Germany?
A Yes.
Q Were you in agreement with those laws?
A It is rather difficult to say today. The results and consequences of these laws could not possibly have been envisaged by anyone at that time. One just took the laws at that time as an accomplished fact.
Q You were in agreement with the laws in principle but you were annoyed by the effects which the laws later proved in Germany?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Fenstermacher, do you feel that this is cross-examination?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor please, I am trying to show the type of mentality which this man had and with which he approached the problems which he as a soldier faced in the Balkans.
THE PRESIDENT: He has merely testified as to certain facts which he as an adjutant and company official observed and saw. It seems to me that we will be going into an unlimited study of the mentality of the witness if, after testifying as to facts that he saw and observed, we then go into a study of his mental characteristics. It seems to me it should be limited.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Very well, your Honor.
Q How long did you remain in Serbia as a soldier?
A In Serbia itself I was from June 1941 until my first study leave in November 1941 and later on again in 1943 for the whale summer.
Q Where did you go after you left Serbia towards the end of 1941?
AAt the end of 1941 I went home because of four months' leave for study and went back again to Serbia in April 1942.
Q With what unit did you serve in Serbia in 1943?
A In 1943 I served with the same unit, with this 2nd Battalion of the 521st Regiment with whom I was adjutant in 1941.
A. I repeat. In 1943 I was a member of the same Second Battalion, with which I was adjutant in 1941, only with the difference that in 1943 I was company officer of one of the companies concerned.
Q. Were you continually in the Army until May of 1945?
A. No. In January, 1944 I received a transfer and then I left the XIIth Army.
Q. At what date were you discharged from the Army?
A. I was released eventually when I was discharged as a PW in September 1945.
Q. To whom was the 521st Signal Regiment subordinate during the period June to November, 1941?
A. I have already mentioned that the Regiment had a double subordination.
Q. I understand it was subordinate to General Bader, as Commander of the LXVth Corps on one hand and to the XIIth Army on the other.
A. Yes. Whether it was the higher Command of the LXVth or the Military Command of Serbia directly, I'm not quite certain, but in any case of the Military Command Serbia on the one hand and the XIIth Army on the other hand.
Q. Who was the Military Commander of Serbia at that time?
A. At that time concerned, as far as I remember, the Commanding General was General Boehme.
Q. Do you know to whom General Boehme was subordinate in the chain of command process?
A. I don't know exact details about it. I assume to the Army Group in the Balkans.
Q. You stated on direct examination, Mr. Krage, that there were some attacks on your Regiment in June, July, and August, 1941.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who were the perpetrators of those attacks?
A. At that time in June, July, and August there were more or less sabotage acts which were more directed on our work, that is, the telephone communications etc.
, rather than on the people themselves. But we hardly ever found any of the perpetrators because these attacks were mostly carried out at night or in districts which were so isolated that there was scarely every anybody there who observed the deed.
Q. You don't know whether the attacks were carried out by organized partisan bands or simply by individual Serbs?
A. No, I don't know.
Q. Do you know how the investigations were conducted in trying to ascertain who the perpetrators of these attacks were?
A. No, we didn't learn anything about this in the unit. These investigations were affairs of the staffs who, of course, didn't have any obligation of information toward us, as the units concerned, and also only in a few cases could they find out anything at all.
Q. Which staffs did the investigating?
A. As far as I know, normally the so-called I-c, the divisional staffs, were concerned with the investigation of these kinds of acts, with regard to acts of sabotage etc. I assume this from the fact that the unit had the order to report these kinds of incidents as we called them to the I-c divisional staffs.
Q. Did you as adjutant to the Regimental Command see all the orders which the Regiment received and all the reports which came to the Regiment from the subordinate companies and battalions?
A. As far as they were not particularly confidential affairs of commanders, I normally heard about everything that happened in the battalion.
Q. You talked about an attack at Uzca--U-Z-C-A, I believed you spoiled it. How many German soldiers were killed in that attack?
A. None.
Q. None. The only German soldiers who were killed were killed in the attack near Topola?
A. Yes.
Q. You said that there were 22 German soldiers killed or wounded and 15 to 16 missing.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what became of Kerbler?
A. I met Kerbler later on at the end of my study leave. I think it was in April, 1943, at the replacement units which we had in Vienna. At that time he belonged to some company which was recovering.
Q. You haven't seen Kerbler since 1941, except for that one time that you met him there?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Kerbler a good friend of yours at the time of this atrocity near Topola?
A. No, he wasn't a friend. He was a member of the battalion. He was a corporal with whom I otherwise had no contact.
Q. About how long did you told to him about this atrocity?
A. As far as I remember I visited Kerbler in the hospital a comparatively short time after the attack, and perhaps I talked to him for about a quarter of an hour.
Q. You said the attack was, as far as you remember, on the 4th of October 1941--the attack on the German soldiers?
A. I think I said on the 2nd of October?
Q. The attack was on the 2nd of October, and you saw Kerbler in the hospital two or three days later?
A. No, not two or three days later. The first meeting with Kerbler was carried out by the company officer. I visited Kerbler later.
DR. LATERNSER: A misunderstanding must arise because of the translation which has just been made. The Witness said the first interrogation took place then, and this was translated as the "first meeting."
Of course, in this connection it would only seem as if this witness had his first meeting with Kerbler. Could this last question and answer be repeated so there will be no misunderstanding?
THE PRESIDENT: I feel that perhaps it should be repeated. I think we're all conscious of the fact that the task of the interrupting is not an easy task, and we 're all human, but we do want to be careful to get the correct translation, not only for the benefit of the Tribunal, but for all parties concerned. And may I suggest that you repeat the question and the answer be given slowly so that the Interpreters may have ample time to vige the proper translation.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Yes, Your Honor.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. You said that the attack upon the German soldiers was on the 2nd of October 1941. When did you first talk to Kerbler about it?
A. I can't remember the exact date, but, as far as I remember, Kerbler was, first of all, sent to a hospital near the place of the attack, and then to Belgrade. And it was only there that when Kerbler had recovered a bit and could receive visitors that I visited him. I can't remember the exact date.
Q. Would you say that it was a week after the attack or two weeks or just a few days?
A. Well, I should think that it was certainly--well, perhaps around about a week later.
Q. Did you speak to him before you made up the report on the incident?
A. No, I only drew up the report, but this report didn't contain any details about how this shooting was carried out, but only the fact as such.
Q. Did you talk to any of the other survivors besides Kerbler?
A. Yes, I spoke with some of those men who had previously resisted capture and had returned unarmed to the company.
Q. Did you talk to any of the other survivors from the valley?
A. No, apart from Kerbler there weren't any other survivors in the valley. Only Kerbler had survived.
Q. And Kerbler told you that he lost consciousness after the first snot which was intentionally fired over the heads of the German prisoners?
A. Yes, that's how Kerbler described it.
Q. And when Kerbler resumed consciousness, as I understand it, he saw around him dead German soldiers?
A. As far as I remember Kerbler described it like this: He said that obviously only part of the men were dead, that is did not move any more. And Kerbler says that as he himself pretended to be dead, he saw how the two partisans who were carrying out the action went up to the ones who were obviously not dead and put a pistol to their heads and killed them off finally.
Q. Well, I take it that Kerbler could not actually see that if he was pretending to be dead?
A. No, but pretending to be dead he only laid there without moving. He told me that as he said through half-opened eyes he saw all this happening. And I can't say any more about it.
Q. I thought Kerbler had lost consciousness after the first volley. How could he remain conscious enough to see what was going on so far as the killings were concerned?
A. I personally imagine it like this: that Kerbler was brought to consciousness again by the second volley, which were the first death shots. That's how he described it to me at any rate.
Q. And, it was just a mistake on the part of the partisans that Kerbler himself was not finished off?
A. Yes. We regarded it as a lucky thing at that time.
Q. Was Kerbler quite clear about all the details in your fifteenminute conversation with him?
A. Yes, he told me everything, and presumably even in more detail than I have done it here. But I can also add that even before then, a through company officers, he made an official statement in an interrogation. And, therefore, he could remember the events better.
Q. It's been six years since you talked to Kerbler for fifteen minutes, Mr. Krage. Are you quite sure you remember everything he told you?
A I remember this incident of course quite well because this was a case which for my battalion, at least in our ideas, involved very high losses. And also it was unique, for the whole regiment. I don't know whether Kerbler told me other things, but in any case I remember the things he told me at that time and which I read in the minutes of the interrogation.
Q Have you talked to anybody else about this incident since it happened in 1941?
A It's clear that this incident, of course, was repeatedly talked about even in the officers circles.
Q How was it that you remember so well the number of German soldiers killed, missing, and wounded if that incident happened six years ago?
A The number of dead, of course, I remember because I took part in the burial of the twenty-two victims, and the number of missing and wounded at Usja I can estimate because all the repair units had about the same strength. And, first of all, the whole unit was missing. And the number of those missing at Topola can be seen from the fact that I know definitely that the Commando was about the strength of a platoon with an additional company.
Q Did he show you any reports in connection with this atrocity at Topola?
A No.
Q You said that you read the draft of the report on the atrocity because of a diary entry.
A I said that I remember the date of the attack, not the date of the report. This is just the date I don't know exactly. I only estimate it.
Q What kind of diary was that refreshed your recollection with respect to the date of the attack?
A It was a normal diary, a sort of a pocket book which one carries about.
Q Your own personal diary?
A Yes.
Q Do you still have that?
A No.
Q When did you last look at it?
A When I was on leave together with my wife, as far as there weren't any military secrets concerned, I usually discussed what had happened in the meantime, because my family was interested in it.
Q When did you last look at your diary?
A I really can't say any more.
Q Was it last week, last year, or in 1943?
A No, it was still during the war because I haven't this book any more, because I lost all my personal goods.
Q Was it 1943, 1944, or perhaps 1945?
A Certainly not in 1945 because I wasn't at home any longer then. I really don't know.
Q But in any event you remembered the date of the attack as the 2nd of October from having looked at the diary?
A I recall that it was the 2nd of October, and this can also be confirmed by the fact that this was a supply trip. That is, a trip in which the repair units on the sectors received their pay, amongst other things. And the German Wehrmacht always paid at the beginning of the month. And certainly it happened during the first days of October. I remember it the 2nd of October.
Q Well, you received an order to execute in reprisal -an order for 200 persons, 200 persons in reprisal for the Germans killed in the attack near Topola?
A Yes, this order went to the units concerned as far as I remember. Not very long previously a fundamental order of this kind had been issued.
Q What were the battalions that were subordinate to the 521st Signal Regiment at that time?
A There was a 1st Battalion and a 3rd Battalion which were employed in Greece, and then our Battalion which was near Belgrade. That is, in Serbia.
Q Do you remember the number of that Battalion?
A Which belonged to me? That was the 2nd Battalion.
Q Did. you ever hear of the 449th Corps Signal Battalion?
A I don't think there was a 449th Signal Regiment because the regiments all had 5 for the first number.
Q Do you know anything about the 342nd Division which was in Serbia at that time?
A No. We didn't have any contact with them. I didn't know.
Q Mr. Krage, would you look at this document which is NOKW.192 which has already been introduced in evidence as Exhibit 78 in Document Book III. This is on page 1 of the English and page 1 of the German. You will note, Mr. Krage, that this is an order of the Plenipotentiary Commanding General of Serbia who at that time was General Boehme and it is dated 4 October 1941, and its subject is "Reprisals for Horrible Murdering of German Soldiers by Communist Bandits." You will note to whom the order has been sent. It is the Chief of the Military Administration with the Commander of Serbia, 342nd Infantry Division, 449th Corps Signal Battalion. You will note the text of the order. "Twenty-one soldiers were tortured to death in a bestial manner on the 2nd of October, in a surprise attack on units of the Signal Regiment between Belgrade and Obrenovac. As reprisal and retaliation one hundred Serbian prisoners are to be shot at once for each murdered German soldier. The Chief of the Military Administration is requested to pick out twenty-one hundred inmates in the concentration camp Sabac in Belgrade, primarily Jews and Communists, and to fix place and time as well as burial place."
Now you. will note the reference to the shooting details. "The shooting details are to be formed from the 342nd Division for the Sabac concentration camp and from the 449th Corps Signal Battalion for the Belgrade concentration camp. They are to be furnished by the Chief of the Military Administration through the Plenipotentiary Commanding General of Serbia."
Did you ever receive an order similar to this?
A No, I don't know the order.
Q Now will you look at this document, NOKW-1211, which is Exhibit 79 in Document Book III?
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, I am sorry to interrupt, but if the order had been read through in its entirety, then it would have been easy to understand by everybody concerned. The copy of the order which I have, bears the handwritten note "Only ordered orally" on the 4th of October.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I will be glad to read, the total part of the proceeding document for you, Mr. Krage. "The Chief of the Military Administration is requested to order the camp leaders to inform the prisoners of the reason for the shooting", and there is a pencilled note, "only verbally ordered", signed, "General of the Infantry".
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q You say you never received an order similar to that?
A I don't know the order at all. It was not directed to us.
Q I think you said earlier that you received an order to take reprisal measures at the ratio of one hundred to one, but that you could not remember whether you received that order in writing or whether only orally.
A I must put this right. The order went to the units concerned, and the company officer who carried out the executions had, as far as I remember, received all these orders and directives and the way in which the people should be shot, etc. He had received them from personal orders from the Commanding General or from the Military Administration. I don't know anymore today, but in itself it was so that the units concerned by reason of the OKW order should, first of all, shoot 2,200. That is as far as I remember.
Q Well, these two units that were concerned in carrying out the executions were subordinate to your regiment, were they not?
A Yes.