AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal reconvened at 1400 hours)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, may I first of all announce that I, in my capacity as defense counsel of Field Marshal List, and my colleague Dr. Menzel, as defense counsel of the defendant Kuntze, after Field Marshal List has been examined as a witness, we will produce a witness, the former Lt. Colonel Wenning. I am announcing it in order that the 24-hour limit be kept to.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Have you any comment at this time, Mr. Denney.
MR. DENNEY: I would just like to know that if defense counsel are able to advise us who the man is and how he spells his name.
DR. LATERNSER: The witness is at the moment in Nuernberg. His name is spelled as follows: Dietloff von Wenning.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: And at what time do you expect to produce him?
DR. LATERNSER: We shall produce him after concluding the examination of the witness who is on the witness stand now. That will be in the course of tomorrow.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Very well.
DR. LATERNSER: After the 24-hour limit has passed.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Shortly before the recess you had stated that on the 6th or the 8th of December 1941 you had left the hospital and that you had been in a military hospital in Sismanoglion.
A. Sismanoglion.
Q. Where did you go after you left the hospital?
A. After I left the hospital, I went to Vienna, and then to Partenkirchen.
Q After you were discharged from the hospital, were you being medically treated?
A I was being treated for some time as an outside patient.
Q After you were completely recovered, did you again become Wehrmacht Commander Southeast?
A No.
Q Why not?
A Because, as Keitel told me, I had given the impression to Hitler that I had not crushed the insurgent movement in Serbia energetically enough.
Q After your recovery did you undertake steps to be employed again?
A No.
Q Why not?
A I had an opportunity during my stay at home to gain a better insight into the conditions at the time and into the activities of the Party.
Q Were you used again in an official capacity?
A Yes.
Q How did that come about?
A In the course of June I was asked to see Hitler at the Obersalzburg and he told me that he intended to use me in the East as Commander-in-Chief of an army group. This army group would be newly formed out of the Army Group von Bock, at a date and time when the offensive intended by him of a rather extensive nature had taken its start. I asked him at that time whether sufficient forces were available for such an extensive offensive, whereupon he told me yes, that would be his business and I shouldn't worry about it.
In reply to my further question about how the supply lines were secured in this rather difficult case, he answered quite briefly. I had the impression that he did not want to deal with all these things in detail.
Q When did you take up this command?
A. During June and the end of June I went to Poltava and I got the command on the 17th of July, and the time previous to that Hitler had been in Poltava for discussion with Field Marshal von Bock. There it was expressly pointed out to him that I was present; I was not called to attend this discussion.
Q. What course did the operation then take?
A. I advanced with the army group in the general direction via Rostov towards the Black Sea and against the passes of the Caucasian range. After I had reached the shores of the Black Sea in the neighborhood of Novorossisk, and the peaks of the Caucassus, Hitler asked that I attack with the forces of approximately one mountain corps across the Caucassus down to the Black Sea.
Q. Did you execute this order with the partial forces at your command?
A. I objected to this order because, though it probably would have been possible to carry it out, it would have brought the troops into a position for which I could not take the responsibility. Several times I asked by telephone to be allowed to report to Hitler personally about this, but I did not succeed in that. Therefore, I asked Jodl to come and see me. He arrived the next day by plane and agreed with me, and he promised, on the same afternoon, to bring me an answer from Hitler as I wished. This answer arrived after about one day and a half. This agreement of Jodls' with me had caused sharp controversy, as far as Hitler was concerned, which affected all the generals at the headquarters.
Q. Now, what was the end of this business?
A. After I had received the teletype, which in its essentials agreed with my views, Hitler did not insist on the attack. Field Marshal Keitel came to see me the next day and told me that the Fuehrer no longer had sufficient faith in me. For that reasons he asked me to resign my command of this Army Group. Keitel saw me between about 10 and 11 o'clock in the morning; at 12 o'clock I resigned.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. The next day I went by plane to Vienna.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: What was that date, please?
DR. LATERNSER: Which date was that?
DEFENDANT LIST: That was on the 10th of September 1942.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. And when did your discussion with Keitel take place?
A. On the 9th of September 1942.
Q. Well, how did it happen that you were allowed to resign from your post?
A. That was only possible because Hitler wished it. If I had not fulfilled this wish I would probably have received the order to do so.
Q. Were you personally injured or offended when you were asked to resign?
A. For an higher officer, during war-time, it is not particularly pleasant if he has to resign from his post, but , on the other hand, in this case, I looked upon it as quite a comforting situation because I told myself that in this manner I evaded quite a number of conflicts which would have had to come.
Q. What did you do after you left the Service?
A. After a short stay in Vienna I went to Partenkirchen; as soon as my treatment was no longer necessary in Vienna.
Q. And what did you do chiefly in Partenkirchen?
A. I lived a purely family life, and I spent some time on history and the history of art, and as long as it was possible, I did a lot of work in my garden.
Q. With whom did you have social contact?
A. In Garmisch-Partenkirchen I was a friend of General von Adam, who had left the service in 1938; I was also friendly with the General of the Artillery, Kuehlenthal, who , before the war, had to leave the Service for racial reasons. And then there were some other people, who did not, however, become intimate friends of mine.
Q. You said General Kuehlenthal had to leave the Service for racial reasons. What was your attitude -- we have not discussed this yet, -- regarding the Jewish question?
A. My attitude to the Jewish question is quite obvious from my behavior during the Jewish Programs in the year 1938 in Vienna. Apart from that I had a number of acquaintances who were Jewish themselves or who were married to Jewesses.
Q. Even during the war?
A. Yes, even in Partenkirchen.
Q. Was it know to you during the war that the majority of the Jews had been taken to concentration camps?
A. In the course of the war, the first time about 1941 or 1942, I heard of individual incidents that Jews were put into concentration camps.
To a greater extent about this I only learned after leaving the Service, and I learned of the total extent only after the end of the war.
Q. From then on that is from your resignation in 1942, what was your attitude to the Party circles in Partenkirchen?
A. I had no contact whatever with Party circles. I did not even know the Kreisleiter or the Ortsgruppenleiter of Partenkirchen.
Q. With whom did you have contact at that time, apart from those people mentioned.
A. I only had a very little contact outside Partenkirchen. There was an old friend from my university days. I also had contacts with the Infantry General of the Infantry Olbricht. He had been my former Chief of Staff in Dresden while I was Commanding General there.
Q. Did he often visit you?
A. He visited me about every two or three months.
Q. What did you talk about during these visits?
A. He always gave me a picture of the general situation and the military situation, and I had the impression that he was bothered by a lot of cares which he wanted to get rid of by talking to me.
Q. What was General Olbricht's fate?
A. General Olbricht was a leading conspirator during the 20th of July 1944, and he was shot in the Reich War Ministry.
Q. Were you informed about the plans leading to the attempt on Hitler's life in July of 1944?
A. No, I was not informed about these plans.
Q. Did you yourself suffer from the after-effects of the plot of July 20th?
A. Insofar as very early the next day a post office employee told me that my telephone communications were being tapped by the Gestapo, that is, they were being connected with the Gestapo line.
And insofar as during the next weeks, which I could easily recognize I was shadowed by some SS men in civilian clothes who were quartered in a nearby SS hospital.
Q. How and where were you when the war came to an end?
A. I was in Garmisch-Partenkirchen when the war enede, and I was able to make a small contribution in an unofficial way, to have GarmischPartenkirchen declared an open city, because in Garmisch -- Partenkirchen seventeen military hospitals were situated. Therefore, no fighting occured in Garmisch-Partenkirchen.
Q I am now putting my last question. At the beginning of these proceedings you stated that you do not feel guilty.
A Yes.
Q Are you still of this opinion, after the Prosecution has submitted its evidence.
A Yes. During my forty four years of military service it had always been my principle to instruct my men, old officers and young officers, in the guilding principles of justice, humanity, and fairness; and I have followed these guiding principles all my life and have tried to apply them in every situation as energetically as possible. This guiding principle was valid for me. It was, of course, also valid for me for my activity in the Balkans. If, at first sight, some measures, in view of the very bad material available, look rather inhuman, these measures too have their origin. And I want to assure you of this; I want, your Honor, to know that they had their origin in military necessity, and they sprang from no other motives.
Q For the time being I have no further questions.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Dr. Rauschenbach for the Defendant Foertsch.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q Field Marshal List, I have only a few questions regarding General Foertsch. When did General Foertsch become Chief of Staff with you?
A Foertsch became Chief of Staff during the first ten days of May, 1941.
Q Did you ask for this change in your Chiefs of Staff?
A No.
Q Was this change a surprise to you?
AA complete surprise.
Q Was this change desired by you?
A This change was like every change of this kind, one had agreed with the predecessor, it was highly undesirable.
Q Did you know General Foertsch previously?
A I knew General Foertsch quite superficially from a few official meetings in the Reich War Ministry.
Q What was your opinion of him? From the personal papers of General Foertsch I have found no judgment concerning him from you.
A Foertsch has a clear intellect; he can talk well, and he can also write well. He was a very keen worker. He was adroit and showed himself so in intercourse with superiors, with equals, and with subordinates; in his social intercouse with our allies. The Staff had full faith in him. Summing up, I can only say that he was an excellent Chief of Staff.
Q Was he a so-called trouble maker?
A No; on the contrary, he supported me when I complained to the OKW, and we had, of course, no other aim than to occupy a pacified country. I mean we did not welcome the transfer of larger stretches of Greece and Croatia to the Italians and of further parts of occupied territories to the Bulgarians.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Just a moment, please.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q Did General Foertsch have any tendency towards transgressions in his office?
A I never experienced or saw him transgressing his powers.
Q Do you have the impression that he reported everything to you which required your decision as Commander in Chief and which you had to know?
A I had the very definite impression that he informed me regarding everything I had to know.
Q Did he ever transgress his powers as Chief of the General Staff?
A No case is know to me, and I never heard anything from subordinate officers that they complained about such actions.
Q What was the relation to the commanders subordinate to you? Did you ever hear any complaints?
A No, I always had the impression that the ************* very pleasant and satisfactory one.
Q And what was his relationship with the OKW?
A His attitude was very critical. Some of the directives we received he could not understand because they had been issued without sufficient knowledge of our conditions.
Q And how did he represent his and your views to the OKW?
A I had the impression that he represented our view in a very adroit and firm way.
Q What is known to you regarding the views of General Foertsch at that time towards the Party?
A His attitude became more and more critical and negative in the course of time.
Q Now, a last question. Even before the 31st of August was the employment of the XVIIIth Mountain Corps considered for Serbia?
A Nobody thought of it at that time.
Q Thank you; I have no further questions.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Any further questions by members of the Defense Counsel Staff? Mr. Denney?
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor, in view of the statement which was made yesterday, I would appreciate it if I could have sometime to go over my notes. The could adjourn until tomorrow morning, because I understand that this witness is not to be cross-examined until a later time.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: It is the view of the Tribunal that, in view of the quantitative suggestion of the Tribunal yesterday, with respect to the order of the testimony, your request is reasonable and will be granted. The Tribunal will adjourn until tomorrow morning at half past nine.
THE MARSHAL: The Court will be in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(Court adjourned at 1445 hours, until 0930 19 Sept 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Wilhelm List, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 19 September 1947, 0930-1630; Justice Wennerstrum, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
May it please Your Honors, all defendants are present in the Court room.
The persons in the court room will be seated.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter?
DR. SAUTER (for the defendant Lanz):
Your Honor, may I put a few short questions to the witness, please.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, when you were directly examined you told us that in April 1941 when the two Greek Armies capitulated, that is, the Tracian Army, the Eastern Army, - that happened on the 9th of April 1941, if I am correct, and the Epirus Army, that was the Western Army, and if I recollect properly that happened either on the 21st of 23rd of April? That is correct; isn't it?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. All right, in connection with that I am interested in the following. In view of this fact does that mean the whole Greek Army capitulated or were there any larger units of the Greek Armed Forces excepted from this surrender?
A. The capitualtion of the Thracian Army and the Epirus Army meant that the entire Creek Land Amy capitualted.
Q. If I understand you correctly you had no doubt that through this surrender its existence was discontinued?
A. There could be no doubt whatsoever about that.
Q. Did you know as the responsible German Army leader, and I repeat, did you know as responsible German Army leader, at that time, consider in any way the possibility that the fight on the part of the Greek troops would later be continued by any other organization?
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor I object to Dr. Sauter leading the witness; he can ask him what he knew, but he is putting the answer to the question.
DR. SAUTER: It was not a leading question because everybody in the court room could and must hear from the answer to the previous question what I again asked the witness in order to exclude any doubt.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed; the objection is overruled and I doubt the necessity of repeating the question.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, in connection with your previous answer I had put to you the question: Did you, as the responsible German Army leader in the Greek area, consider the possibility or the likelihood that after the surrender of the whole Greek Army the fight would be taken up again by any other kind of organization? Did you count on this possibility or likelihood?
A. I did not count on this possibility. Otherwise I would not have immediately, after the capitulation, released all Greek soldiers. Any other units did not exist in Greece.
Q. Witness, just one last question. The Greek witnesses which have been examined here described the situation as if so to speak the Greek Army had never capitulated and that the Greek Partisans were a kind of legitimate successor of the Greek Army. Do you share this opinion or is this opinion, according to your personal knowledge; incorrect?
A. That the Greek Army ceased to exist and that the surrender extended over the whole Greek land army is a fact. That can be soon from the fact that as of that day; that is the 9th of April; concerning the Thracian Army; and as of the 21st of April concerning the Epirus Army; no further fighting took place. All Greek troops as a consequence of the surrender ceased hostilities not only against us but also against the Italians and the Epirus Army surrender was carried out without any necessity of applying force on the part of the German troops or anything like that.
DR SAUTER: Your Honor; I have no further questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further examination on behalf of any of the other German counsel? If not; you may proceed with the cross-examination; Mr. Denney.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. You told us about the Munich Putsch attempt in 1923. Just what was your connection with that event?
A. With my battalion that was stationed in Kempten and in Lindau I was alerted during the night; transported by rail to Munich during the night and there I was employed for the maintainance of security.
Q. For whom wore you acting in that affair?
A. For the Kahr Government of that day in Munich.
Q. And who were you opposing?
A. Hitler and the National Socialist party.
Q. Do you know what they were trying to do?
A. Who?
Q. Hitler and his National Socialists.
A. They had tried to overthrow the Kahr government.
Q. Then were you successful in your efforts?
A. Yes.
Q. Some time later I believe you told us you had to flee because of what happened there.
A. That must be an error.
Q. Perhaps you can straighten it out for me then. What happened after that?
A. May I explain that the fleeing may be connected with the statement that I said on the occasion of the Raete Putsch and the establishment of the Spartacist rule I had to flee from Munich; that was in the year 1918.
Q. I see; thank you. Then you were on duty at the Infantry School about 1930. Is that right?
A. Spring 1930.
Q. And there you noticed some attempts on the part of the National Socialists to influence the young officers?
A. The influencing of the young officers had taken place already prior to that in various and individual troop units.
I was given the instructions and the task to prevent that such attempts would he carried out in the Infantry School.
Q. And you did everything you could to prevent the ideas of National Socialism from being conveyed to the young officers of the Infantry School?
A. I could not prevent that these ideas were communicated to these young people because they were very free with their connections on the outside but in any case I tried to prevent that it had any effect in the school itself and also on the thoughts and ideas of. these young officers.
Q. You wanted to be sure so far as the instruction went that the school was restricted purely to military matters and didn't get involved in the Party idealogy?
A. Yes, one can express it like that.
Q. And you were successful in your efforts?
A. Yes.
Q. And when the Hitler government came to power because, you have stated, that they were duly elected, you saw no reason to discontinue your position in the Army?
A. No, I saw no cause to do that.
Q. Then, you recall that early in 1940 I believe it was you had a talk with Brauchitsch with reference to the possibility of further military action in the West?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was Brauchitsch?
A. Brauchitsch was the Commander in Chief of the Army.
Q. And he at that time was a Field Marshall?
A. He was at that time a full General, (Generaloberst).
Q. And what was your rank then?
A. I was also a full general (Generaloberst.)
Q. And you made a memorandum as a result of your talk with Brauchitsch which you forwarded to Hitler?
A. May I put that right?
Q. Certainly.
A. I had written out a memorandum purely for my own personal use that was very brief ideas of mine which I put down just for my own personal use. Then Brauchitsch came on a visit to see me and he talked to me about these operations which were in consideration and asked me about my own opinion. And on this occasion I told him I had put them down in a brief form and I informed him about the main contents of this memorandum. Then he said I should put these very same ideas to Hitler if at any time I had the opportunity to do that.
Q. Did you ever have the opportunity?
A. No, I never had that opportunity.
Q. Then you went to a meeting in 1939, November. Was that at the Reich Chancellory in Berlin?
A. I cannot recollect where that discussion took place, in what particular room.
Q. Well, I am not interested in the room; do you know where it was?
A. In Berlin.
Q. And Hitler was there and he had the ranking Generals there?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were there?
A. It was a very large meeting where the Commanders in Chief and all Commanding Generals and I don't know whether there were divisional commanders too but all those present ; I can't tell you the exact number of those present now but if I picture now the room where the meeting took place I think there were at least a hundred people or even more.
Q. And it was there that you and some of the other older Generals were accused by Hitler as being timid?
A. He had probably heard that ideas had been expressed against the war amongs the older Generals and that such thoughts existed and for that reason he reproached just us older Generals with our timidity.
Q. And when you were in the Southeast were you again accused of not being aggressive enough.
A. Keitel made a remark of that kind to me and he made this remark the reason that after my recovery I was not sent again to the Southeast.
Q. When was that that Keitel said that, if you can recall.
A. That was in March or April 1942.
Q. Where were yon at that time?
A. In Partenkirchen.
Q. Now, you have said that you have always held yourself above the Party considerations, that you tried to do your duty as a soldier and kept away from political things?
A, Yes
Q. Now, to your rank of Field Marshall, you were promoted Field Marshall when?
A. That was after the campaign against France July 1940.
Q. And to retrace for a moment, you have spoken of Keitel.
Will you tell the Tribunal who Keitel was.
A. He was Field Marshall Keitel and he was a Chief of the High Command of the Armed Forces.
Q. And how long did he hold that position, roughly. You don't have to give the exact date. Until approximately the end of the war?
A. I don't know when he started on this position but he occupied it until the end of the war.
Q. In 1940 when you were promoted Field Marshall in July following the campaign in France how many Field Marshalls were there in the Wehrmacht?
A. I cannot give the figure here now. I believe in the Army there were either nine or twelve Field Marshalls, but I can be mistaken in this figure and maybe included those people who were later promoted. I can't say for sure at the moment.
Q Well, then, do you knew what your position was in the rank list when you were promoted Field Marshal?
A I believe I was on the place after General von Bock.
Q Well, do you know numerically where you were or where von Bock was?
A It was the fifth or the sixth place.
Q So that in 1940 you were the fifth or sixth ranking Field Marshal in the army and did your position at any time between the time you were appointed Field Marshal in July, 1940, and the time when you retired from active duty in early September of 1942?
A No.
Q Roughly, from an area standpoint, how big was the territory under your command in the southeast?
AAt the time when I was Whehrmacht Commander Southeast, it was an area of about the size of Germany at that time.
Q Well, perhaps you can be a little more specific. The boundaries of Germany were changing somewhat in 1941.
A It is very difficult to say that. The distance from Belgrade to Grete would probably correspond with the distance from Aachen (Aix la Chapelle) to Minsk.
Q It certainly was an area which was substabtially larger than the Third Reich as it was constituted prior to 1 September 1939.
A Yes, it was larger. That is right.
Q When you commenced operations in the Southeast sometime early in April, 1941, how many troops did you have under your command?
A You mean the divisions, numerically? How many divisions?
Q Well, you were commander of an army.
Q And how many corps were in the army?
A The army had five corps.
Q You had an army which was composed of five corps and approximately how many devisions in total?
A It was somewhere between 10 and 15 divisions.
Q Well now, taking an army with ten to fifteen divisions, five corps, the necessary corps troops, and an army troops and army rear area troops, roughly how many men would you say that you had under your command?
AAbout 200,000.
Q And then after things got somewhat more stable in the Southeast and the second army under Field Marshal von Weichs had withdrawn, what troops did you have down there as of the date of approximately June, 1941?
A Do you mean at the time when I was already armed forces commander or at the time when I was only in Greece?
Q Well, let's take both of them. Let's take first when you just had Greece and then later when you were armed forces commander?
A In Greece I had, additionally, one corps and about fourand-a-half divisions and a few forces for security reasons, security battalions.
Q How many men would that make approximately?
THE PRESIDENT: May I make inquiry as to whether there is some mechanical trouble or something that this can be avoided.
MR. DENNEY: I know this isn't intentional, your Honor. I don't know -
THE PRESIDENT: Marshal, if you will try to ascertain the trouble.
Mr. Denney, the difficulty caused by this squeaking is apparently mechanical. They are calling a man up from the office. If it isn't to objectionable, if you can proceed until he gets here and if he comes and it is necessary, of course, to take a short recess, why we will do that, Mr. Marshal. If its gets too bad, we will stop until it is cleared up.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Just before we had the mechanical interruption, I had asked you how many men you had in Greece in these four-and-a-half divisions and the security battalions. Will you tell us, please?
A I cannot say that from memory. I can hardly say that or I can just say it very approximately. Roughly about 60,000 men.
Q And then when you became forces commander Southeast, what was the approximate strength of the troops under your command?
A That is even more difficult to estimate because I cannot recollect now how many security battalions and how many infantry battalions wore present in Serbia which also have to be taken into account apart from and besides the four divisions which were in any case stationed in Serbia. I can really not name a figure here because that would be too vague. If one counts the four divisions and the infantry battalions, that could have been also approximately somewhere between 50 and 60 thousand, but that is the best I can say.