Q Would you say that the Finnish soldier, as a soldier, would be of the same quality as the Russian soldier?
A I would say that he would be much superior to the Russian soldier.
Q General, do you know anything with respect to the preparations for the evacuation? In your direct examination you were asked with regard to this point, and you stated then you had received orders to the effect. Now, did you actually know what happened and what was done in order to carry out the evacuation in good order?
A Yes, of course, I know that because, after all, I had my relative orders. The evacuation was a rather big problem. It could only be carried out without any friction if the evacuation plans were strengthened and safeguarded by orders with regard to food and accommodation.
Q I think the roads in the Northern territory were of great importance. Had the roads been prepared for the withdrawal?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell us in detail with regard to this preparation of the roads?
A The disposal of the heavy snow was of great importance. Alarge organization for the traffic control was necessary and special arrangement had been made to secure the tunnels. Accommodation barracks had been built in the retreat area, military installations had been put up, and medical supplies were ready, and collection and transfer camps had been built.
Q General, you mean all these installations had been built for the evacuation of the civilian population?
A Well, for the civilian population and our own troops.
Q In the area of your supervision, General, did you ever hear of any excesses, riots or cruelties by German troops in the course of the evacuation?
A The first time I heard anything like that was in February or April. I do not remember exactly. That was, I heard and read in Swedish newspapers of an incident which happened in a home for old pensioners. That was a home in Varanger bottom.
Q Witness, I would not like to dwell on rumors or anything which you heard from other sides, but I would like to hear of such incidents which were reported to you because you were the commander of troops.
A Nothing of that kind was ever reported to me in my capacity as commander.
Q Can you tell us anything with regard to the fact whether the demands during the evacuation of the civilian population took preference over the demands of the military troops?
A The position was such that we had to unload munitions and similar materials from our trucks in order to transport the civilian population instead. In some instances we put Red Cross ambulances at the disposal of the civilian population. Although we ourselves had thousands of wounded whom we had to transport into hospitals which lay hundreds of kilometers to the rear. I know of another case where we had a transit camp for wounded which we put at the dispotal of the civilian population. This we did although the accommodation for our own troops along the main Route 50 was very limited. The food which we distributed to the civilian population in the area of Tarna-this food did not really mean a sacrifice because those food reserves we could not have taken along with us anyway.
Q But any way the civilian population was supplied with such materials.
AAs far as we could possibly do that we did it, but after all this was still during the war. Everybody had to fight until his last strength, but I can say with my full conviction that everything was done which could humanly be done under the conditions which we had to struggle.
Q Witness, you went from Kirkenes right down to the Lyngen fjord. Will you be good enough to show us this stretch on the map which we have here?
A (Witness rises from witness stand and is given a pointer). Now, here we are at the end of the Varanger bottom. There's Tarna, Mjor elf, there's Alta here, and there's the Lyngen fjord.
Q Thank you. General, how much time did you need to cover this area? I mean just approximately?
A Well, I think I left Kirkines about--that means the area around Kirkenes--on the 12th of October, and I arrived beyond the Lyngen fjord, that may have been on the 20th of November.
Q So during this period of the evacuation you were on the way in this territory for about six weeks.
A Well, that means in such a way that I always remained several days in a fighting area.
Q Do I remember rightly, witness, that you stated in the direct examination that never you never saw a piece of slaughtered cattle or dead cattle?
A No.
Q In this connection, I may ask you the following question. With regard to the position of the German Reich, was supply of food one of the most important tasks of the military operations?
A Yes.
Q In the army, and also in your own command, it was particularly attached to the safeguarding and security of food?
A Yes, definitely. It even went so far that in order to safeguard food in the area Kirkenes, I had the order from the high command to hold this area for a longer period than I thought it possible according to the general position.
Q Now, with regard to this attitude of the high command, would the definite slaughtering of the cattle be punishable by the high command?
A Well, the killing of cattle would not have come into the question at all. I can only think that the Norwegian population were not able to hold and to look after the cattle and they therefore transferred them to German soldiers. A similar thing happened in Finland. I remember for instance, I remember in detail, that my staff, before the Finnish population was evacuated, received from the peasants in Petsamo which came under my command, or rather bought a cow for several thousand Finnish marks because the farmer couldn't take the cattle along with them.
Q General, did you ever hear that cattle was burned to death in barns?
A No, I never heard anything like that at all.
Q General, according to your direct interrogation, you stayed in Norway for about three years. Is that correct?
A No, I was in Finland.
Q Oh yes, I am sorry -- Finland. I think you know how the population was made up. Now, generally speaking, what sort of professions did the Finnish population mainly have?
A You mean the Finns? Oh yes, well the Finns apart from the purely city population consists mainly of farmers, forestry workers and fishermen.
Q Now among the last categories, which one was the predominant?
A Well, the peasants, of course, are the predominant category. There are also timber workers, forestry workers, but, very often they sort of exchange, they run together.
Q Now with regard to the Norwegian population, what is the position there?
A I think most of the Norwegian population was engaged in fishing.
Q So that is a very hard and weather beaten sort of person?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Now what sort of transport means were used by the Finns?
AAlmost exclusively their boats.
Q In that respect, do you mean large boats?
A Oh no, they are usually the little fishing vessels.
Q Now if I leave this particular population out of consideration what makes up the Norwegian-Finmark, as far as territory is concerned?
A The Norwegian-Finnmark consists mainly of desert-like tundra areas, scattered in the valleys there are some smaller settlements with some agriculture, and for the rest there are also the Lapps who mainly pursue reindeer breeding.
Q Would it be easy to walk about this district off the ordinary roads?
A Well, it would not be possible if you had any vehicles, but a single person could easily cross the country.
Q How many roads -- that is, in this approximately 800 kilometers long territory from Kirkenes to the Lyngen fjord, how many roads are there?
A I think that can be shown clearly on the map. In this district there is practically really only the Reich road 50 and into it run the roads which the Germans have built, Yverlaa, Mjr-elf and the other road along the Finnish-Swedish frontier which runs onto the Lyngen fjord.
Q So you mean in the real Finnmark, there is only one road, is that correct?
A Yes, there is only one road which was completed by the German to carry right through.
Q General, would you agree with me if I say that the destruction of parts of this road and the bridges on this road would have been of decisive influence on a pursuing enemy?
A Yes.
Q Those bridges which were on this Reich Road 50 -- were they already there when the German army marched into Norway?
A I did not take part in the invasion but I know that the Reichsstrasse 50 only existed in parts. I also know that this road running right through and being negotiable for vehicles of all kinds was only created by the German troops and the OT.
Q General, the houses in Finnmark, what were they like? Were they stone buildings or timber buildings? What material were they made of on an average?
A On an average, they were made from timber, log cabins.
Q Do you know anything with regard to forests which were destroyed?
A I think the forest around Alta and also the forests in some side valleys around to the coast were cut in order to produce building material for military installations.
Q General, the town Kirkenes came under your supervision, didn't it?
A Yes.
Q When you left this territory, was Kirkenes destroyed then?
AAfter the fighting was over, just to give you a sort of measure, about 3 or 4 fifths were destroyed.
Q Do I understand you correctly - you mean that happened in battle?
A Yes, that is in battle. The decisive destruction happened during two Russian air attacks. First of all, half the town, and then in the second attack, essential other parts were destroyed.
Q And you estimate this destruction at about 4/5ths -- that means 80 per cent?
A Well, I would say between 3 and 4 fifths.
Q The remaining buildings, were they destroyed by the German troops when they withdrew?
A No, only in part because we hadn't enough time to do anything like that. We succeeded to blow up the quay's but otherwise the withdrawal was carried out under strong Russian pressure.
Q North of Kirkenes in the Varanger territory, there are the towns Vara and Vard. Were these towns destroyed through military actions or by evacuation measures?
A I can tell you that exactly, because I visited those towns shortly before we withdrew. At that time, Vara, after the last aerial bombardment by the Russians, gave the impression as I mean on a comparative basis, it looked like Nurnberg looks now. Vard was destroyed slightly less.
Q If I remember rightly, you mentioned that you have 5,000 wounded. When you mentioned that figure, did you mean that is at the time when you started your withdrawal or was that another time?
A These 5,000 wounded fell on at about the 10th of October during the course of the fighting. They were constantly being transported to back lines.
Q Would you say you had sufficient transportation for these wounded?
A Oh no, by far not.
Q In spite of this fact, you say you put your own trucks, at the disposal of the evacuation particularly at that of the medical unit?
A I wouldn't like to put it that way. Mainly we gave convoys that means truck convoys, and only in extreme cases and only when we were particularly asked did we send any ambulances.
Q Today in the direct examination you mentioned the public appeal to the Norwegian population.
You say this appeal was signed by the Reich Commissioner and also the Supreme Commander of the 20th Mountain Army Corps. Do you know anything about the relationship of the General Rendulic to the Commissar Terboven?
A. Well, the relationship was not a friendly one.
Q. How do you know that?
A. The Supreme Commander, at the end of November, 1944, visited me in our combat position west of the Lyngen fjord. On this occasion, he also reported difficulties with the Reich Commissioner.
Q. Do you remember any details, any particular remarks from this report?
A. Well, today I do not remember anything in such detail that I could repeat it here.
Q. But you would like--you mean to say that the relationship between the Reich Commissioner and the Supreme Commander was rather tense?
A. If I may add, I think I can just remember one remark which the Supreme Commander made. He said that he assumed the total responsibility for Norway as Supreme Commander in Chief and he would not allow the Reich Commissioner to interfere with this responsibility.
Q. General, with regard to this appeal, I beg your pardon I don't mean the appeal--but I mean the order which came from the army with regard to the evacuation, do you remember that the word "ruthless" was used?
A. No, I do not remember that.
Q. What was the relationship between the soldiers and the civilian population?
A. The relationship was a very friendly one. Particularly, of course, between those soldiers who had lived in this territory Vanga with the population.
Q. That would mean that in order to prepare the soldiers emotionally for the evacuation from their homes of those people with whom they had lived, very definite language had to be used.
MR. RAPP: I object to this type of questioning. I believe defense counsel is getting a conclusion from the witness rather than a testimony.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
MR. RAPP: I believe the witness already has answered, Your Honor to this question. We would like to have this stricken from the record.
THE PRESIDENT: The question may be answered.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Would you answer this question, please?
A. This word "ruthless" I have always considered in that light, that it was to prepare the soldier emotionally because as I have said before, I as well as my soldiers considered this necessity for destruction a very bitter one.
Q. Did you in Norway meet Norwegians who were not Quisling followers?
A. I was hardly ever in Noway. I had my combat position in Petsamo. I only came temporarily to Kivkeneg and in the district of Vard and Vara. After I had lived in those districts, I came to my combat position which was South of Troms. They were very small places. That was the end of November, 1944. I had no personal contact with any Norwegians. That is, neither to Quisling followers nor to anti-Quislings.
Q. Were you not a prisoner of war in Noway?
A. Yes.
Q. During that time of imprisonment, did you talk to Norwegians, particularly did you talk to then with regard to the evacuation?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember any remarks which were made by these Norwegians with regard to the success and the carrying out of the evacuation? I mean their remarks which were made to you in this respect?
A. I never heard any remarks in the negative. Generally speaking, I personally was reproached with having taken part in the destruction of the Finnmark.
Q. Witness, I don't think you understood my question quite correctly. What I want to know is while you were a prisoner did you ever talk with any serious Norwegians with regard to the evacuation? Did you have any conversations to this effect while you were a prisoner of war--and I am particularly interested to know how these Norwegian people now reacted and what they thought of the actual facts which accompanied the evacuation?
A. In no way did I ever find bitterness among the population -at least such people as I talked to.
Q. General, I am coming to the end of my questions. The prosecution maintains that a general plan was in existence according to which the civilian population was supposed to be systematically weakened and broken down. Did you ever hear anything of such a plan?
A. No, it seems to be quite unfeasible to me.
Q. You never knew anything with regard to such a plan?
A. No.
Q. General, did you know the army order which the then Supreme Commander gave by which the transfer of the high command in Norway was announced?
A. No, I cannot remember anything like that.
Q. General, how did these orders finish? I mean what was the salute?
A. We usually said "Long live the Fuehrer", "Heil Hitler".
Q. Was that quite the usual way of terminating any order?
A. Yes, it was.
DR. FRITSCH: I have at the moment no further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take our morning recess at this time.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, I have just thought of a other two short questions during the interval. May I ask the witness these questions?
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. General, you said that the carrying out of he order to destroy the Finnmark was a very difficult task to you. Why did you not resign your office as Commander?
A. What use would that have been? I would have put my soldiers into a very difficult position and I would have left them there by themselves. If I resigned another man gets my position and the soldiers have to carry out the orders anyway.
Q. Would you have had the possibility of resigning?
A. No, I wouldn't have had this possibility.
Q. Why not, General?
A. I would have had to give a reason for this resignation; I would have had to give a practical reason why I did not carry out the Wehrmacht orders and I son't have to tell here why I did not want to do so.
Q. Is an order known to you, the order that there was no such thing as a resignation?
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, we submit that this line of questioning is entirely outside of the scope of the direct examination and if defense counsel wished to make the witness their own witness, for this particular line of questioning, we have no objection.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, I cannot agree with these statements.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may answer.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. May I ask this question again, General? Is an order known to you according to which it was impossible for officers, especially high officers, to resign?
A. I have not seen such order but I have heard about one, and I assume that a resignation of that kind, especially during the war did not exist.
Q. You say that you heard about such an order?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, one other question, witness. General Rendulic, whose defense counsel I am, was in the Balkans, especially in the Balkans and also in Norway. For weeks now the reproach is being made that the German forces, especially in the Balkans, used especially severe fighting methods, and had proceeded in a very serious and were manner altogether.
Now, you stated that General Rendulic, as Commander-in-Chief in Norway, had done every thing in his power to create good and favorable conditions for the civilian population. How do you account for the difference in the warfare in Norway then? Will you please answer that?
A. I believe that the difference in waging war in Norway and in the Balkans or in Russia or even in Finland can be very simply explained. The enemy was of an entirely different nature. The Soviet Rusian and the Partisans in the Balkans, as far as I am in formed, fought with very brutal attitude and ruthlessness. The German officer and the German soldier could only use the same method of fighting.
DR. FRITSCH: Thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. RAPP:
Q. Witness, were you ever in the Balkans?
A. Yes.
Q. When?
A. At the beginning of the offensive I was in the Balkans.
Q. How long?
A. During the actual fighting I was there only fourteen days and for the preparations I was there for three weeks.
Q. Thank you. Witness, you said that you have never heard about the possible resignation of a German general.
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. I said that a German general could have resigned. You said you had never heard about such a thing. Is that correct? Did you say that?
A. Well, I had heard about it.
Q. What do you mean "heard"?
A. I have heard that a German officer could not resign, in war.
Q. Witness, my question was, whether you had over heard that a German officer or general could not resign.
A. Yes, I have heard of that.
Q. You also said that you do not know about such a case in which actually a general ever resigned. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you mean by resignation?
A. By resignation I mean a German general applying for his resignation and says? "I can no longer put my services at the disposal of the Wehrmacht." There were cases, in fact, where this resignation was actually accepted. I believe I seem to remember General Halder, for instance, in such cases, the wish of the applicant was granted and it coincided with Hitler's own wish.
Q. That is your assumption?
A. Yes, that is my assumption, but I also know in other cases, for instance, the case of Field Marshal von Rundstedt, that the application for resignation was not granted. My brother, for instance in his case his replacement was refused.
Q. Witness, at the beginning of your examination, in cross examination, you said that the weather conditions at that time were most favorable for the German Army. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Were they also favorable for the Norwegian population?
A. I think I expressed that.
Q. Witness, furthermore, you were asked in the cross examination whether one was ever afraid that Finland, after it had been excluded from the German coalition pact, had ever really been an actual enemy of the 20th Army in Finland or whether it could have been an enemy ever. Witness, did the Finnish General Staff or the Finnish Government report to the Army in Finland at the proper time that the Finnish Government was turning away from Germany and did they, through this measure, give the opportunity to the German Army to withdraw from Finland immediately?
A. The information came with a time limit of a fortnight. This time limit of a fortnight was not enough, quite insufficient in fact, to grant us a proper orderly withdrawal from Finland.
Q. But generally it is a fact, witness, is it not, that the enemy does not usually give a fortnightly time limit and then says after that we attack?
A. Well, these were special conditions.
Q. But a fortnight was better than nothing at all, witness, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, witness, you also spoke about your not having seen any atrocities being carried out on the part of members of the 20th Army and you also said that you saw no vandalism of any kind; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, at the beginning of your examination, in cross examination, you said that the weather conditions at that time were most favorable for the German Army. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Were they also favorable for the Norwegian population?
A. I think I expressed that.
Q. Witness, furthermore, you were asked in the cross examination whether one was ever afraid that Finland, after it had been excluded from the German coalition pact, had ever really been an actual enemy of the 20th Army in Finland or whether it could have been an enemy ever. Witness, did the Finnish General Staff or the Finnish Government report to the Army in Finland at the proper time that the Finnish Government was turning away from Germany and did they, through this measure, give the opportunity to the German Army to withdraw from Finland immediately?
A. The information came with a time limit of a fortnight. This time limit of a fortnight was not enough, quite insufficient in fact, to grant us a proper orderly withdrawal from Finland.
Q. But generally it is a fact, witness, is it not, that the enemy does not usually give a fortnightly time limit and then says after that we attack?
A. Well, these were special conditions.
Q. But a fortnight was better than nothing at all, witness, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, witness, you also spoke about your not having seen any atrocities being carried out on the part of members of the 20th Army and you also said that you saw no vandalism of any kind; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that you had never heard of rumors of such vandalism. Now, witness, if I understand you correctly, this negative answer of yours can only refer to the time, as you said on Friday, at which you actually had something to do with the evacuation measures. Is that correct?
DR. FRITSCH: I object, Your Honor, please, this is a typical case of a leading question.
THE PRESIDENT: He may answer.
A. I repeat my former statement. I heard for the first time of an antrocity in February, or possibly April 1945. The 6th Mountain Division was reproached within or in the neighborhood of an old age home, of having burned a house with an old man inside. On instruction of AOK I at that time cross-examined by court martial those who were supposed to have been in charge of this. I read the affidavit of the man in charge, the engineer platoon leader. I had it in my own hands, in fact, and I read that he himself, before it was burned, that he examined and searched each house, and that he thought it quite impossible that this case had actually happened.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, I have only one question to ask. My attention was drawn to the fact by my colleague, Dr. Laternser, that the word "court martial", which the witness used, was not translated. I would like you to ask the witness to repeat, perhaps in one sentence.
MR. RAPP: I have heard it. I heard it translated.
THE PRESIDENT: In order that there may be no question about whether it was translated or not, the witness will repeat the statement to which reference has just been made concerning the actions in connection with court martials.
THE WITNESS: I repeat, I had the matter in question examined through the competent authorities, which was in the case a court martial.
Q. Witness, you told us that your brother, who was the Chief of Staff of the defendant Rendulic, and of course you also, were against this order, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you said furthermore, witness, that a proclamation was made directed to the Norwegian population which was to the same effect as the OKW order, which was signed by Rendulic, as well as by Terboven is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you regard this order as a so-called Fuehrer Order?
A. I never thought about this. This red poster I only actually saw once or twice stuck on walls of houses. Otherwise I never had it in my own hands.
Q. Witness, perhaps you haven't understood my question correctly; the poster was not the actual order of which I speak; I mean't whether the order which you in the 19th Corps received from the 20th Army, and which came from the OKW, whether this order was regarded by you as a Fuehrer order?
A. Yes, for the reason that according to my memory the order contained in its first phrase that "the Fuehrer has ordered." I don't remember exactly, but I think I am almost certain that it was so.
Q. Witness, did you ever in your military career, and you have been asked questions here about Finland, the Balkans, Russia and Norway, -- did you ever see a proclamation to the population which was really like an order?
DR. RITSCH: Your Honor, the way he puts this question shows that it is a suggestive question, a leading question, and I protest.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, I am trying merely to refresh the 'Witness' memory about what he has been asked here, and I have not at all stated my question.
THE PRESIDENT: You may conclude your question.
Q. Did you over see such proclamations at all which were signed by a supreme command, and also at the same time by a political personality?
A. I cannot remember having seen such an order or proclamation anywhere.
Q. Did that mean anything to you?
A. I never thought about this. I was much more interested in the general over-all problem than with regard to a proclamation.
Q. Witness, do you mean to say that on the basis of the fact that this order was a Fuehrer Order you were bound to carry out this order?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you have carried out a repetition of this order in the sense of this discussion with your brother?
A. I expected this question, and I accept all consequences too. Secondly, then I would not have agreed to the destruction of things and villages probably after I did not see the necessity of them, and I would have taken all consequences in general.
Q. General, what would the consequences have been?
A. I would have been shot immediately.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, I have only two questions which result from the direct examination; Mr. Rapp asked you, General, whether it was usual that the enemy was informed before that you would be attacked in 14 days; how was the relationship with the Finnish Army?
A. Our relation with the Finnish Army was excellent.
Q. Did that come out of these very critical days?
A. Partly, yes. I had nothing to do with the Finns. I was not actually a witness, because up there we had no troops in our district; but I do know that those Finns whom I had dealings with were in excellent relationship to us until the last moment, and they regretted the unfortunate development very much.
Q. Do you mean this way, they did not approve of the attitude of your Government?
A. No.
Q. The second question, General, is in connection with the proclamation. The prosecutor asked you whether you saw such a general proclamation at another place or on another date; in any of the occupied territories was there a Reichskommissar apart from the supreme commander?