In my time General Tomasevic was assigned to the corps headquarters by the Croatian government and he had to handle these territorial matters in conjunction with the authorized German general in Agram."
Number 4 deals with the evacuation of certain sections of the Coast in October 1944. This is a period of time when General von Leyser was no longer present in that area. Therefore, I do not have to read that particular passage into the record. In the same way, Numeral 5 deals with the period of October and November, 1944, which also is a time period which is of no concern to General Leyser.
General, did I understand you correctly before to the effect that you said that the evacuations to the whole extent were militarily necessary, but that for humane considerations one restricted oneself to only evacuating the band suspects and only evacuating in those areas which were of vital military importance? Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. General, we will now deal with the main document in this connection, which at least is theoretically the most important document. This is Exhibit 381 of the Prosecution, contained in Document Book XVI. It is on Page 55 of the English text of that Document Book and Page 104 of the German text of that Document Book. It is Document NOKW-674of the Prosecution. We have here the order by the Second Panzer Army, dated the 13th of February 1944. The reference says, "Evacuation of the Island and of the Coast in the event of an enemy landing." According to the distribution list this order also reached the XVth Mountain Corps. May I ask you in this connection, Witness, to give us your brief comments on the contents of this order?
A. A few days ago the Army leader discussed this order in detail, and I believe I have only here to refer to those parts which for me, as a tactical leader, are of a tactical importance. The first point which is important is No. 1, in accordance with which the entire male population capable of bearing arms on the islands along the Adriatic Coast is to be seized and transferred to the mainland immediately. The reasons why this was necessary from a military point of view I have described before. Also, I have said that necessary measures were only carried out to a comparatively small extent. Where the XVth Mountain Corps was concerned the situation was that this order represented an absolute military necessity. All that remained to be done was to regulate the manner in which this order was to be carried out or rather the extent to which this was to be carried out.
Q. Here, again, we face the problem, General, that something seemed to be of a military necessity which eventually was not carried out in just that extent. Am I to understand your testimony to the effect that you are trying to say that the German leadership conscientiously accepted military disadvantages for reasons of humanity? Is that correct?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. This order, General, which we have discussed, was it passed on to the competent divisions?
A. Yes, it was passed on to the two coastal divisions on the basis of the Army order.
Q. We will now turn to a further discussion of those evacuation matters, and in this connection we will deal with documents contained in Document Book XVI. Would you turn to Page 145 in your document Book, which is Page 100 of the English Document Book?
I have reference to that particular passage which you will find here repeatedly mentioned by the Prosecution Document No. NOKW-1445, which is Prosecution Exhibit 385. This is the War Diary of the XVth Corps, which contains a number of entries concerning the evacuation. First of all, I would like to point out that the passing on of the evacuation order was included in this War Diary on the 17th of February 1944.
General, we will now deal with the actual execution of these measures. To what extent were these measures carried out?
A Only to a very limited extent. In the War Diary which you have just mentioned and which I have in front of me, which is Exhibit 395, there are a number of reports about these facts. First of all, there is the report of the 24th of February, 1944. It says here and I quote: "In the area of the 264th Division, evacuation ordered for islands close to the coast is proceeding." This is being reported to the Second Panzer Army.
The next sentence is of importance and it reads there, I quote: "In order to evacuate the islands Molat, Dugietek, Kornat and Zirje, the islands have first to be liberated by fighting." I may at this point stress that these islands which are mentioned here represent the larger islands. "They were, to begin with, in the possession of the bands and the liberating by fighting was dependent as far as the time factor was concerned on shipping space. Simultaneously we had to contact the navy in that area so that it rendered sufficient protection for this purpose. The Italians, of course, when they capitulated, had destroyed quite a large amount of shipping space and sunk a number of ships. Also the bands which retreated to the islands had taken with them a part of the available ships so that we found ourselves rather short of shipping space. This made the mopping up of the islands pretty difficult."
Q General, I now would like you to refer back to Exhibit 381 which is an order of the Second Panzer Army dated the 13th of February. We briefly touched on this document before; it is contained on page 55 of the English text of Document Book XVI and on page 104 of the German text. I would like to ask you one question concerning this document. According to this document, it had been provided that the evacuated people would be used further and it says here that in this connection collaboration was intended with the German territorial agencies. By this I mean the German Plenipotentiary General in Albania and Croatia, the administrative and local headquarters as well as the indigenous authorities.
To clarify this problem, I would like to ask you, were you as Commanding General of the XV Corps, in charge of these territorial agencies mentioned here? Were they subordinate to you?
A No, the territorial agencies were never subordinate to me.
Q The order further states any number of details, General, concerning the further fate of the evacuees which is, for the moment, a theoretical intention. May I ask you whether these plans and intentions were ever realized? Were they ever carried out in the way as they are laid down here in this order?
A Since evacuation in actual fact was more or less an evacuation on paper, the use which was provided here for the evacuees was also not realized. There is some talk here about the labor service for the evacuees and no such thing was carried out by the XV Corps.
Q We don't want to stay very long with theoretical considerations of orders which were later amended, and which therefore only have a very small influence on the actual happenings but there is one more document which I would like to show you and which might be of importance in this connection. Would you please turn up in Document Book XVI, page 109 which is page 61 in the English Document Book? Here you will find Exhibit 382 which is Document NOKW-671. It is an order dated the 21st of February, 1944, and the subject again is the evacuation of the islands and of the coast in the event of an enemy landing. The subject is the same as the one in the previously mentioned order. Will you please give us a few comments on this particular order?
A This order dated the 21st of February, 1944, is an additional order to the basic order of the 15th of February, 1944. It says here that pursuant to the order of the army group, the report of completion of mission, in accordance with number three of the order mentioned in the reference, is to include the results of the measures ordered. It states further here what data the reports have to include.
Since, however, the evacuation, as I have already said, was hardly carried out, this particular order did not play any part whatsoever.
Q I believe I understood you correctly, General, if I assume that this is not a new basic order but merely an additional order which deals with the formal side of an order previously given?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q But there is one passage contained in this order which I would like to discuss with you. It says here, and I quote: "Report of completion of mission must therefore include the following daga: 2-I-d. How many were contracted for work in the Reich?"
This commitment in the Reich General, plays quite a considerable part in the presentation of the Prosecution and this passage might lead to the conclusion that the troops, which means indirectly you, were the responsible authority for a forced transfer of the evacuees for work in the Reich. What can you tell us about these things?
A Such an impression would be quite a wrong one. As I have repeatedly stated, the troops had nothing to do with the commitments of laborers in the Reich. This can be seen from the basic order of the 13th of February, 1944.
Q May I interrupt you briefly, General! You are having reference to, if I understood you correctly, to page 106 of the German text which is page 57 of the English Document Book. Will you now please continue?
A It says here: "The Military Commander Southeast is requested to point out to the labor authorities the possibility of recruiting labor for the Reich." These labor authorities which are responsible therefore for the recruitment of labor for the Reich were by no means subordinate to me or to the XV Corps. The additional order of the 21st of February 1944 is, as can be seen by its contents, a collective order which was not only passed on to one troop unit but also to the Military Commander Southeast, who was to point out to the employment authorities the possibility of a recruitment.
Only through this channel could a report about a labor commitment in the Reich reach the Second Army, tut not via the troops who had nothing to do with this.
Q In order to clarify this point completely, General, I would like to ask you one more question. There is some talk about commitment to the Reich and you said that the employment offices were to be pointed out the responsibilities for the recruitment for the Reich. Does, therefore, the word "commitment" -- does that mean that these people entered a contract on the basis of this recruitment or what do you mean?
A. It means a contract which these people entered.
Q We then have one more document to discuss, General, which again deals with the forced transfer of people into the Reich which has been so frequently discussed. This document again is contained in Document Book XVI, Will you, in your document book, turn up page 143 which is page 97 of the English text? There you will find this entry. This is Document NOKW-1418 of the Prosecution, which was submitted by the Prosecution as Exhibit 394. On the page mentioned, there are submitted a number of special instructions for the 20th fountain Army Crops concerning the supply, dated the 20th of June 1944. Under numeral 4, it says here: "Transfer of arrested indigenous personnel, band suspects, and deserters to employment in the Reich." I would like to briefly sketch the contents. In accordance with this communication, the Croatian government complained about the compulsory transfer in opposition to treaty regulation of members of the population into the Reich. In this order No. 91, it says: "Such measures were to be prevented. The recruiting and collecting of persons ready to work for the Reich may only be carried out through the offices of the Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year-Plan and this office is to work in collaboration with the Croatian offices." From this particular instruction, one might conclude.
General, that units subordinate to you had carried out compulsory transfers into the Reich before this order was issued. Would you like to clear up this point?
A The corps had no possibility whatsoever to carry out transfers into the Reich. The corps tried neither via camps nor via the competent offices to do this. If in this special instruction which you quote here, there is such a provision, that does not mean that from now on --- that before that such incidents had actually taken place and that the corps was concerned. The special instructions were merely a compilation of instructions issued by the army and this particular passage was included here as an information measure in order to instruct the troops concerning the legal situation.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned to 13 November 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List, et al., defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 13 November 1947, 0930, Justice Wennerstrum presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V. Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court room.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal you will ascertain as to whether or not all defendants are present in the court room.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all defendants are present in the court room except the defendant Lanz who has been excused in order to prepare his case.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Dr. Tipp.
ERNST VON LEYSER - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY DR. TIPP:
Q General, yesterday when we finished we discussed Exhibit 394, which were the special instructions of the 15th Mountain Corps for the supply No. 91 dated 20 June 1944. This document can be found in Document Book XVI of the Prosecution on page 97 of the English text and on page 143 of the German text. Maybe you would like to briefly tell the Tribunal what basically such an instruction for the supply meant for the German troops.
A These special instructions were issued by the Quartermaster General. They were based on directives which were issued by higher agencies such as the Army for instance. This particular instruction deals with the fact that somewhere on the part of the Croatian government complaints had been raised about some agency who was recruiting Croatians for labor commitment in Germany. These instructions which are contained in this order are intended to point out to the troops that such things mustn't happen; that instruction does not mean that this had already occurred in my sector of any where else. It was a kind of precautionary measure to point out to the troops that such a compulsory recruitment to Germany was not proper.
Q I would like to refer back in this connection to a document which I have already offered. This is Leyser Document No. 54 contained in my document book III on page 164. I have offered this document as Leyser Exhibit 24. With regard to this special joint I would like to refer back to numeral 4 of this affidavit and I would like to read a part of this affidavit into the record. Numeral 4 is on page 166 of the document book. The first passage of this numeral 4 which deals with prisoners has already been quoted by me and to this point which I am concerned with I would like to quote the second passage of numeral 4 on page 166 of Document Book III.
"The Corps neither possessed nor exerted any influence on the deportation of prisoners of war, or inhabitants of the country, for labor service in the Reich. If in the document submitted to me, Exhibit 394, mention is made in the special orders for supply, No. 91 of the 15th Mountain Army Corps of 20.6.1994, that the Croatian government complains that in violation of agreements inhabitants of the country captured in the partisan fighting, men suspected of being partisans, or deserters, are being deported to the Reich, then this does not mean that such cases occurred within the area of the Corps. If it had occurred, then I would remember it. This order was taken from a teletype or from special regulations of the Army and added to the existing regulations of the Corps as a precautionary measure. The Corps would have had no facilities for sending such people to the rear. Nor did the Corps exert any influence whatsoever on the deportation of evacuees to the Reich in the spring of 1944, when the coast and islands were evacuated. This was exclusively the duty of the agencies of the territorial power, in collaboration with Croatian government offices."
I would like to point out that the affiant, Freiherr von Tucher, according to numeral 1 of his affidavit, was Quartermaster on the Staff of the XV Mountain Corps. He was, therefore, the very man who would have to work on those special instructions within the staff of the corps. We can now continue, General, and I would like to ask you to tell the Tribunal what was the actual extent of the evacuating of the islands?
A The documents show comparatively little about this problem. From my recollection I can only say that no material evacuation was carried out of the islands. From the entries in the diary of the 30 March 1944 which is Document 1445, Exhibit 395, contained in Document Book XVI, on page 102 of the English document book and 146 of the German text, which is one month after the order was issued, up to that day the evacuation had reached a number of 1128 men, 100 women, 150 children. At the same time it was being reported that 150 to 200 thousand more were to be evacuated and an accommodation within the corps area for these people was not possible which is why the corps reported to the Army.
Q General, you said just now that according to the entry in the war diary among the evacuated there were 100 women and 150 children. According to the contents of the basic orders which we discussed only men capable of bearing arms were to be evacuated. How then do you explain this discrepancy?
A It is correct that according to that order only men capable of bearing arms were to be evacuated and that is what was provided in the special instruction but the population of the islands themselves were interested in leaving the islands, inasmuch as the danger existed that these islands would become a combat area; therefore, children and women joined their men folk who were being evacuated. As I also know at a later date that a part of these evacuees was brought back to the island again because these people felt at a disadvantage since through their voluntary report they were a disadvantage compared with the others. For this reason at a later time which I remember quite well a few of these evacuated women and children were returned to the island. Since in the course of the summer an invasion on the part of the Allies did not take place this was feasible.
Q You say then that these men and women voluntarily reported for evacuation?
A Yes, that is what I said, voluntarily.
Q Who was in charge of the actual execution of the evacuation. By this I mean the gathering together of the men in the islands and their commitment for further use?
A This again can be seen from some documents. The documents concerned are Exhibit 383.
Q I would like to have the corresponding document exhibited to you, General. It is contained in Document Book XVI, on page 63 of the English text which is page 110 of the German text. This is Prosecution Document NOKW-673 which is as you said Prosecution Exhibit 383. Would you please tell the Tribunal, General, which document, out of this exhibit, you are having reference to?
A The German Plenipotentiary--
Q First, you will have to tell us which document it is, General.
A It is in Exhibit 383, Document 673 contained in Document XVI, page 63 of the English text and page 110 of the German text.
Q And which is the communication you are referring to?
A It is a communication of the German General Plenipotentiary in Croatia dated the 26th February 1944 and addressed to the Croatian War Ministry and the Croatian Ministry of the Interior. The German Plenipotentiary was the liaison officer to the Croatian government. He was, therefore, the man in charge of all territorial tasks; that he played a part in the evacuation program had already been provided for in the basic order of the 13 February 1944.
In this communication which we have here dated 26 February 1944 the Plenipotentiary suggested that there be established a mixed committee of one Croatian Army officer, one officer of the Ustasha militia, and one liaison officer. This commission was then to deal with the seizure and transfer of the men of the classes 1904 to 1947 in collaboration with the local Croatian authorities. To this extent then this was a regular recruitment of the men in Croatia who were capable of bearing arms, carried out by the Croatian agencies. It says here further, and I quote, "Members of class 1924 and 1925 are to be sent to the Croatian Armed Forces as recruits unless they are of the Pravoslav religion and will be turned over to the competent military authorities." This then concerns a recruitment of indigenous men carried out by their own government and the next passage "D" reads, the rest of the men are available to the Fortress engineers staff for construction work on the coastal fortifications. Here again these people are committed for work within their own country.
Q. Would you say, General, that the recruitment of these men and their labor assignment was carried out by a commission of Croatian government agencies?
A. Yes.
Q. Now dealing with the question of labor commitment I would like to refer back to a document which I have already submitted. It is contained in Document Book I and it is Leyser Document No. 16 which I have already offered as Leyser Exhibit 17. This is an affidavit by the Government architect Persch which is contained on page 46 of Document Book I. I would like to refer in this connection to paragraph 3. I would like to anticipate that Herr Persch, quoting numeral 1 of this affidavit, was Chief of Construction in the staff of this organization, trained work detachment in Belgrade and I would also like to state that the organization which was trained was the organization which dealt with the fortification work along the channel coast and in other areas working side by side with the German Armed forces.
Herr Persch is, therefore, a man who owing to his job knows all about this labor commitment. I am quoting from numeral 3 of page 47 of this document book:
"The employment of the population for construction projects in connection with the Organization Todt was effected through employment of the civilians, either on a voluntary basis, or through the assistance of the regional Croatian labor offices. This was the only and, above all, good earning possibility, especially so if one remembers that housing, food and even clothing and shoes, etc. was made available, as far as possible. The extend of care given to the native workers went even so far that canteen supplies, if available, were given to them. The employment of the unskilled native workers was usually effected in such a way that they were made available for the respective project by the regional labor offices in question, after they had previously been examined by indigenous physicians. Each worker then was again examined by physicians of the Organization Todt which frequently led to dismissal of less suitable persons.
"The supply of food was kept on the highest possible level and, aside from exceptional cases of particular emergency, was never lower then 2500 calories according to assurances given to me by the doctors and on the basis of my own findings. When the decreases in the food supply had become necessary, the troops were also affected to the same extent, and I remember very well that the physical condition of the indigenous workers in the Organization Todt, in the region of the 15th Mountain Army Corps, under General v. Leyser, could in many cases be kept on a high level only because of the fact that the Organization Todt was in a position to make its own food stocks available.
The workers again and again assured me that not only the General, but also the officers in his personal staff laid the greatest stress to an adequate care for the unskilled workers. I know these facts from own experience and from the reports of my men.
"In this connection the fact should be pointed out that the medical care for the foreign workers was in no way different from that given to our own men. The treatment of out-patients, hospitalization as well as dental care was the same."
General, dealing with this problem of labor employment of the civilian population I would like to ask you one additional question. The provisions of the Hague rules for land warfare are known to you and you realize that it is forbidden in those regulations to use civilian population of an occupied country for work tasks which according to the text of the Hague rules for land warfare are directed against their Fatherland, had you any misgivings in this direction if natives of the Croatian country were used by the German Armed Forces for the building of roads and fortifications?
A. First of all in my sector only a small number of people were concerned. Furthermore, they were Croats who had been levied by Croatian authorities. The Croatian state was an Allied State and friendly towards us. Consequently this work to the extent to which it was carried out on the fortification represented work in the interest of their own Fatherland against the common enemy and the work carried out in connection with roads, etc.
was, in my opinion, not even of a military nature.
Q. After this interpolation we shall continue, General. Concerning this communications of the Plenipotentiary General I have one more question in another context. You have already told us that you had so-called Legion-divisions. By this I mean divisions, the men of which for the most part were Croats. How did these legions get their men?
A. This was always a difficult problem. The troops were very interested in using as many Croats as possible in order to keep the stand of their men completed but the Croatian agencies, of course, divided up their recruits independently and in this process those agencies were considered first which were part of the real Croatian Armed Forces and the German Croatian Legion Divisions were not so much considered.
Q. Talking about recruitment of Croatians in Legion Divisions I would like to show to you one more entry in the war diary. Would you please turn to a page in Document Book XVI; it is page 144 in your document book and page 99 in the English Document Book. Here you have Exhibit 395 of the Prosecution which has been frequently quoted in these proceedings which is the war diary of your corps. Under the entry of the 19 January 1944 it is mentioned here that the 392nd Division has demanded authorization to drop men from military service and this request has been passed on from the corps to the Army. Can you explain to us how this request came about, General?
A. As I have already stated the Legion Division had their own authorities but there were many people who voluntarily reported for service in these Legion Divisions and that was why the 392nd Division requested to be allowed to use these volunteers and this request was passed on to the Army.
Q. Can you tell us, General, what the decision was later on concerning this request?
A. This again can be seen from the war diary and from an entry of 24 January 1944.
Q. I would like to add here, your Honor, that this particular entry that the General is referring to is not contained in a prosecution document but in an excerpt from the war diary of the corps submitted by me. This is Leyser Exhibit 28, Document 28, and the entry to which General von Leyser is referring is contained on page 83 on Document Book II for Leyser.
A. According to this entry the Army orders that the employment and recruitment of the Croatians who volunteered could not be affected as a matter of course but that this could only be done in agreement with the Croatian Army Inspector. At a later date the troops were furthermore ordered to consult the Croatian agencies when recruiting these volunteers. This request was for the moment, therefore, rejected by the Army.
Q. I understood you correctly, then, General, to say that the recruitment of the Croatian able-bodied population was continuously carried out by the Croatian agencies. Is that correct?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. We have now deviated a little from our original subject which was the evacuation of the islands. You told the Tribunal that the evacuation was originally carried out on a voluntary basis and that later on that part of the population that was evacuated was returned to the island.
We now continue with this particular problem. I would like to show you an entry in the war diary of your corps which can be found in Document Book XVI of the Prosecution on page 146 of the German text which is page 102 of the English Document Book. Here under the 1st of March 1944 you have an entry stating that the Army requested the evacuation of the island of Hvar as soon as possible and an evacuation of the able-bodied population. May I ask you if this evacuation was carried out to the extent ordered.
A. I can say the following in this connection. It was a prerequisite for the operation against the island of Hvar, which was one of the larger islands in this area that considerable shipping space had to be available, but the corps itself was not in a position to dispose of such shipping space. To the extent which I gathered this now from the documents I myself went to Split on the 6th of February in order to discuss these matters.
Q. May I ask you a question in this connection, General. What was the office of a sea commander, and who was he subordinate to?
A. Along the coast there were certain sea commanders appointed at regular intervals. These sea commanders were subordinate to a naval office, and the corps itself had no jurisdiction over such sea commanders.
Q. May I then ask you what the result of your discussion with the sea commander was?
A. The sea commander told me at the time that for the moment he could not put at our disposal the shipping space for either the occupation or the evacuation of the islands. The reason for this was the Navy had to use its forces in a different way and needed all available space. Therefore, the project was delayed for the moment, or postponed to a later date, but at a later date it was actually executed.
Q. I would then like to continue discussing with you the war diary entries, which after all represent the most important material, in order to clarify these problems. I would like to discuss with you in the same document book an entry on page 102 of the English text, and page 147 of the German text. Here you find an entry of 15 March 1944, which discusses a mopping up operation which is to be carried out at a later date, of the islands situated before Split, Sinje and Ojketog. Were these islands at a later date occupied?
A. The pre-requisite for these operations was also that the Navy should put at our disposal the necessary shipping space. While we did not have that space we were in no position to carry out the operation.
I do recall that at a later date the operation was carried out.
Q. I would like to deal with that new, General; these same islands crop up at a later date. At the same time we have an order of your Corps addressed to the 264th Division, which is dated 7 April 1944. This order can also be found in Document Book 16, page 127 of the German, page 86 of the English. It has been submitted under Prosecution Exhibit 389, which is Prosecution Document 1416. In this order the 264th Division is instructed to carry out the mopping up of the previously mentioned islands, and it says here further, that the islands situated in front of the area 264th Division are to be evacuated from all able-bodied population. You said that this evacuation and the occupation of these islands was carried out at a later date. Looking at this order and taking into consideration all the material, can you give me more detailed comments?
A. As I have already said the execution of all these operations depended on available shipping space, and not only on the shipping space, but also the Navy had to take over the protection of these ships, and the execution of this order from 7th of April was ordered by the 891st Grenadier Regiment on 21 May 1944. This again can be seen from another Prosecution Document, which is Exhibit 574, Document NOKW 1773, which is contained in Document Book 25. On page 101 of the English text and page 79 of the German text. In this order the 891st Grenadier Regiment is instructed to mop up these islands, Nubi Ortek and Kornak. The text of this order has been taken from the corps order literally.
Q. If I remember correctly, General, you said before that the evacuation,--I beg your pardon, the occupation of these islands was carried out at a later date?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you also remember that the evacuations, as it says here, were carried out as far as possible?
A. There is no talk of these evacuations in any other document, and I don't believe they were carried out.