Q. You would describe these military operations then as regular war?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. May I ask you a few questions about recognition accorded the EDES organization by the Allies. Was there a British Mission attached to your organization at any time?
A. As of December 1942 an officially attached British Mission existed which in 1944 joined us as an allied mission.
Q. How many men were in the British Mission when attached in December 1942?
A. It consisted of approximately 12 officers.
Q. Did Zervas send reports to the British Middle East authorities at any time?
A. Yes, at all times as it was a detachment of the Middle East forces, it had the duty to report the daily occurrences of the Middle East forces.
Q. From what period of time did you send daily reports to the British Middle East Headquarters?
A. Between December and April 1943, our wireless communications were not very good as yet and we could not possible send daily messages to our headquarters. Therefore, we limited ourselves to between two and three messages a week. Approximately from April 1943 onwards the reports were made daily with a few exceptions until the end.
Q. Did you say that the EDES organization was recognized as a unit of the Allied Middle East Army?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. What was the earliest period of time?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Fenstermacher, it seems to me that in some of your questions you are very definitely asking for conclusions and my suggestion is that you ask for statements of facts so that the court may pass upon the facts, and not ask for conclusions of the witness. It has been very much abused during all the morning.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I will keep that in mind your Honor.
Q. When was a mission of any other Government or Army ever attached to the EDES organization?
A. An American Mission also joined us.
Q. At what time?
A. In the spring of 1944.
Q. Were any negotiations ever conducted between German forces and the EDES forces?
A. First of all let's distinguish between two phases here. In October 1943 certain effects on the part of the Germans could be noticed in order to reach an agreement. In July 1944 other efforts on the part of the Germans could be noticed in order to reach an agreement, and then apart from that there was a third phase where the surrender of the Germans was negotiated between the two parties of Zervas and the British on the one hand, and the Germans on the other hand. That was in September 1944. Those were negotiations. The first two points mentioned were attempts on the part of the Germans to reach an agreement.
Q. When was the first approach of the Germans to your organization?
A. On October 5th, 1943, Greeks, who had been delegated by the Germans, arrived at Zervas' headquarters.
Q. What was the German proposal to your organization?
A. It was not a proposal but more a blackmail.
Q. Would you tell the Tribunal about that?
A. The Greek delegates sent by the Germans told Zervas, as the Germans' message, that should those attacks on the part of the Gorillas not stop, the whole area of Epirus would be burned down.
Q. What did Zervas do when this proposal reached him?
A. As Zervas was speaking to Greeks, who were the German delegates he told them that he personally could not reach a decision, as he said he was a unit of the Middle East forces and he would contact the Middle East forces through the British Mission.
Q. Did the British Mission respond to Zervas' enquiry?
A. The British Mission immediately sent a telegram on behalf of Zervas to the Middle East Headquarters.
Q. What was the reply, if any, that was received from the Middle East Headquarters?
A. The answer from the Middle East Headquarters was that no agreement, nor contact should be reached with the Germans or effected with the Germans respectively.
Q. Witness, how do you know these things about which you testify?
A. The only reason why I know that is because at that time I met Zervas for the first time and the second reason is that I have all the telegrams which were communicated between Zervas through the British Mission and the Headquarters in the Middle East, and vice versa.
Q. You said at that time you met Zervas for the first time. Hadn't you met Zervas before this?
A. I meant by that the first time in the mountains.
Q. Were there any other approaches by the Germans to your organization?
A. On the 9th or 10th of October, 1943, Dr. Komborosos and the Metropolite, Arch Bishop of Arta, went up to General Zervas's headquarters in Skiadades and they gave him the same sort of message on the part of the Germans who were in the Area of Arta. Zervas answered them that his answer had already been given.
Q. Were there any other approaches by the Germans to the EDES organization?
A. Two days later another delegate arrived. I don't know what his name is; I don't know who he was but anyway he came to Zervas' Headquarters with another proposal on the part of the Germans which, however, contained more complete statements. According to that delegate the message was that Zervas was to meet the following two people, namely: Colonel Biel, if I remember correctly, and Captain Rundstock, if I remember that name correctly, at a given point which was on the road between Arta and Janninano. Zervas was the one to indicate the place where they were to meet and they wanted to discuss the cease fire order and to stop hostilities. There were certain indications at the time which pointed to three different possibilities. Either that the Germans wanted to withdraw entirely or reach an agreement with Zervas or with the Middle East Forces or the Allies. Whereupon, Zervas was again obliged to inform the Middle East Headquarters of that incident and offer. The reply which came from the Middle East Headquarters was the following:
It was their opinion that this was another usual German trick in order to annihilate Zervas and, according to the orders, the answer which was given by the British Mission and by Zervas to the Germans, was that they were to be informed of two things, namely: First of all no agreement would be reached with the Germans unless the Germans were ready to sign unconditional surrender and the second point, which is a more important point, was that these people should be informed that the Commanders of all the German forces in that area were to be held personally responsible for whatever crimes their soldiers had committed or would commit against the civilian population and that they would be held responsible by the Middle East Headquarters.
Q Were prisoners exchanged between the EDES troops and the German troops, witness? Do you know that?
A No, at no time.
Q Do you know how the Germans treated captured members of the EDES organization?
A The policy as carried out by the Germans was characteristic of the way they treated the population in any occupied country
DR. LATERNSER: I object. Your Honor, I have to say that it is difficult for me to keep calm because of the manner in which the witness is testifying. I request that the last sentence that the witness testified be stricken from the record, as a mere conclusion and not pertaining to facts.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained. I think the witness should be cautioned that he should testify only to such facts as he has personal knowledge of.
A Those are facts which I know very, very well because I witnessed those things for four years.
There are not only certain incidents and conclusions on my part; they are facts.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Did you ever see any burned villages in the Epirus section of Greece.
A Did you say a burned village?
Q A burned or destroyed village.
A There were very, very few villages in Epirus that were not destroyed or burned, if any at all.
Q How many destroyed villages did you yourself see?
A Of all those villages of which I can remember the names I can state between 20 and 25 but I do know of 100 or more which I saw myself.
Q Would you describe what you saw when you walked through a destroyed village?
AAll I saw was either burned out buildings or buildings that had been blown up.
Q Did you see any people?
A The villages which had only been burned down recently were of course empty because we had taken care of the people but in the villages that had already been burned quite a while back certain reconstructions were carried out by our own services.
Q Did you gain recruits from the destroyed villages?
A Yes indeed, we did recruit quite a few. Firstly, because they didn't have any place to go, and secondly because they wanted to get revenge for what had been done to them and for the unjust thing that had happened to them.
Q Did you take any photographs while you were in the mountains, witness?
A Yes, quite often.
Q Do you have those photographs with you?
A I have a few photographs here.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor, I just learned yesterday about the photographs in the witness' possession; I believe we can have extra sets of those made by Monday or Tuesday if I may be allowed to reserve my rights to put them to the witness and have him identify them on direct after I have turned him over for cross-examination in a very few minutes. Would that be agreeable to your Honors?
DR. LATERNSER: The witness also happens to have some incriminating material with him. I want to point out that the Prosecution has to bring the incriminating material and not the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: As far as the photographs are concerned, that right will be given to the Prosecution. I am not certain as to what Dr. Laternser has in mind as to other documentary evidence that he has referred to.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, evidently I have been misunderstood. I wanted to say the following: The witness who evidently has incriminating material with him cannot, of course, submit it himself. In the proceedings the material will be submitted either by the defense or by the Prosecution. If the Prosecution has the intention of exploiting this material nobody will object to that but we have to see it 24 hours before it is submitted.
THE PRESIDENT: That rule will necessarily have to be followed and of course if you wish to cross examine him an any matters which you wish to have access to, why that will be your privilege under the rules of the Tribunal BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Witness, was there another resistance organization in Greece during the occupation besides the organization of EDES to which you belonged?
A Yes, there were quite a few others.
Q What was the largest of the other resistance organizations in Greece?
A The EAM which was called the National Liberation Front which had its military organization called ELAS.
Q Witness, when you were a member of the EDES organization, did you consider yourself a bandit?
Q Were you ever a member of either EAM or ELAS?
A No, never.
DR. LATERNSER: I object to that question.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Do you know the name of the German Commander that commanded the troops against whom the EDES organization was fighting during the period of July 1943 until October 1944?
AAt the beginning we thought it was the 1st Mountain Division; the commander of which was General Stettner. It was the end of August 1943 when we learned that it was the XXII Army Corps that was to occupy that area and it was lead by General Hubert Lanz.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Except for the right to examine the witness with respect to the photographs which he himself took during his stay in the Epirus section of Greece, I have no further questions at this time.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. SAUTER (Counsel for the defendant Lanz):
Q. Witness, one of your last remarks said approximately that after the withdrawal of the Germans from Epirus there were practically no undestroyed villages left.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Witness, a few days ago there appeared an item in the papers saying that communist bandits in Epirus had burned 36 villages.
A. The subject at the present moment is not how many villages were burned down by the communist bands but, rather, how many villages were burned down by the Germans. That is what I am going to describe if you want me to, and I will also give you the names.
Q. Witness, I please ask you to answer the questions which I ask you. I don't need to hear any legal instruction from you. I ask you, therefore, is it known to you that only recently again many villages in Epirus had been burned down by communist bands.
A. I am here in order to testify about the crimes which were committed by the Germans while they were occupying Greece and if I am asked anything else I refuse to answer it.
Q. You refuse to answer this question?
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is directed to answer the question as given by the cross examiner.
A. If those things are going on today in Greece, that villages are burned down, then it is only a result of the German occupation of Greece.
Q. Witness, is it your impression that from the years 1943 and 1944 on the fight of the German troops against the Greek Zervas troops was conducted with too great a severity?
A. Yes, undoubtedly.
Q. You're a journalist?
A. Yes.
Q. You, therefore, are probably very well informed about this matter. Is it known to you that the Greek government, a few days ago, handed the American ambassador in Athens a note-
DR. SAUTER: One moment. I must first ask the question and then you can object.
Q. Is it known to you, witness, that the Greek government in this memorandum says the following: "Forcible measures are the best methods of becoming master over the guerillas."
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honors, please, I object to this. I don't see what a note delivered to the American government a few days ago has to do with this proceeding.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection is sustained as not being proper cross examination.
DR. SAUTER: Your Honors, but I must immediately request that the witness, after the completion of the cross examination, may not return to Greece but that he has to remain here as a witness until he is examined as a direct witness by the defense.
Mr. President, I would like to say the following, too. The witness has been examined here in direct examination about the type of warfare in Greece during the German occupation. If the Tribunal wants to hear about this matter, it must be permitted to tell the Tribunal and to prove by means of witnesses how at other times warfare was conducted in the Balkans and, especially, in Greece; and I claim, and I want to prove by means of this witness, that the present Greek government, a few days ago, sent an official note to the American ambassador in Athens in which it describes the use of political methods in this case now in Greece is just as important, is the same thing, as the loss of valuable time. Therefore, the government says it is dangerous for Greece to use political methods at all against these communist troops. The Greek govern ment of today, therefore, demands immediate deliveries of war material, increase of the Greek army, etc.
, etc., evidently in order to fight the same bands who already fought the Germans a few years ago.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honors, if I recall Dr. Sauter correctly, he has asked this witness to remain in Nuernberg to make him his own witness. The prosecution strenuously objects that Dr. Sauter may ask him any questions if he wishes to cross examine him. This witness is here to testify only regarding the EDES organization, one of the Greek resistance movements during the occupation, and it is within the scope of that direct examination that Dr. Sauter may cross-examine him.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal still adheres to its prior ruling that the question asked of the witness should be sustained in that it is not cross examination.
As to the request that the witness be held here so that the defense may make use of this witness as its own witness, that is a privilege which it has. However, it seems to the Tribunal that the witness can be called out of order and the Tribunal will accept such a procedure during these proceedings and, while it is convenient for the witness to be here and to be accepted as a defense witness, and if the counsel for the defense wishes to follow that procedure the Tribunal will entertain such a motion and such an application.
The Tribunal will be in recess at this time until one-thirty this afternoon.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 16 August 1947)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Dr. Sauter.
CONSTANTIONS TRIANDAPHYLIDIS-Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. I want to put some further questions to you and I would like to ask you this afternoon still under oath. Witness, you have told us that your soldiers had the order to keep strictly to the provisions of International Law.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Do you know the name of the Swiss delegate of the International Red Cross in Epiros at the time that General Lanz was commander there?
A. Yes.
Q. What it the name?
A. Hanz Bickel was his name.
Q. Bickel, the Swiss Bickle. Witness, is it known to you that in February 1944 a column of the International Red Cross under the leadership of Mr. Bickle, a Swiss citizen, was attacked by troops of the partisans and that his column was completely plundered?
A. No.
Q. Is it known to you from what General Zervas has told you -- or did it become known to you in any other way that this Swiss Citizen Bickel, as well as General Lanz, reported this matter to General Zervas?
A. No.
Q. Witness, you said this morning the officers of the Zervas army had been held responsible to a very large extent for every action of their subordinates.
A. Absolutely.
Q. In this connection you told us about two soliers who were sen tenced to death for the maltreatment of prisoners of war and who were executed.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. I would like you to tell me now what happened to the superior officers of these soldiers who were sentenced to death in order to make them responsible for the actions of their subordinates.
A. In spite the fact that these officers had given orders to their soldiers and instructions as how to conduct themselves, these soldiers had committed those mistakes and it was due to them that these officers were severely punished for not fulfilling their duty with respect to instructing their soldiers correctly.
Q. How many officers were punished for this case of the two soldiers who mistreated these prisoners of war?
A. I am pointing out that this applies to the officers; those officers, namely two officers, were punished, and these two officers were in charge of these men, and they were responsible for their actions directly responsible for their actions.
Q. What punishment did these officers receive?
A. They were tried; they were put in jail and the rank was taken away from them. They lost their rank and command.
Q. And what was the actual reason why these officers were sentenced? Did these officers participate in the mistreatment of the prisoners of war, or did they look on while these prisoners of war were being mistreated? Or in what constituted the mismanagement on the part of the officers?
A. If they had seen the incident, and if they had participated in the incident, both officers would have been placed before a firing squad. As a result of the fact, however, that they did not see this incident happen, and that they were not present in order to stop these men from doing so, -- due to the fact that they were not present and they could not enforce that order, -- these men received the punishment which I mentioned before, and not the death sentence, because the men were not in a position to see to it that their orders were followed.
Q. Witness, do you know when General Hubert Lanz came to Epiros?
A. According to the information we had at the time, he came in August 1943.
Q. How large were your national forces at that time, -- the armed forces of that organization?
A. At that time there were approximately 10,000 men in Epiros.
Q. Approximately 10,000 men in Epiros. Could you tell us approximately the size of the area of the Epiros? Just approximately.
A. I would say approximately 10,000; 10,000 or 12,000 square kilometers. It depends; the borders of Italy are not well drawn.
Q. Can you give us an estimate how large in your view were the forces which were at that time available to General Lanz?
A. During the first period when the German army first showed up, we estimated their strength to be between 4 to 5 thousand men. Later on, we figured that their total strength was approximately 10,000 men. That was a little bit later.
Q. What is your opinion today if I am telling you that at that time, namely in August and September, when General Lanz arrived in Epiros, his troops had an average strength of between 30,000 and 40,000 men?
A. Where was that?
Q. In Epiros, because we are not talking of America; we are talking of Epiros.
A. That is quite correct, but do you want to know the figures of what we estimated was being used against us in our sector? That period of time was a time when the struggle was going on for the occupation of the Ionian Islands by the Germans, and our operations were also going on near the border of Albania where we did not have any troops.
Q. Witness, I am not quite clear what you mean by your answer. I asked you whether, on the basis of the reliable and accurate information which you received from your sources of information, in your opinion at present, you think it probable that General Lanz had 30 to 40 thousand troops at his disposal in the Epiros at that time? That is my question, and this is the question I would like you to answer.
A. What we were interested in mainly was the number of troops used, or were to be used against us directly. Our spies wanted to find out those facts and that is the information they gave us.
Q. Witness, I don't want to deal any further, as apparently one cannot get a clear answer from you on this point. I want to ask you another question.
A. I gave you a very clear answer. I told you that we figured that approximately 10,000 men were moving against us. We, of course, undoubtedly knew that more troops were being used by the Germans at our two occupied Jannina Islands, and they were General Lanz' troops.
Q. I am not interested in the Jannina Islands here. We are still talking of the Epiros.
May I put another question to you? Witness, you told us today that General Lanz had repeated negotiations with General Zervas.
A. I didn't say exactly "repeated conferences or discussions". I gave you the exact date. I stated my point, namely that the first few times they had conferences, it was not from his part, but rather they were trying to reach an agreement, the Germans I mean; and it is only in the month of September 1944, at which time the Germans were leaving Greece that conferences took place, which conferences we can really call conferences where agreements were reached.
Court No. V, Case No. VII
Q. Witness, I am telling you now that this information you have just given us is untrue, and I would like to ask you to tell us whether it is not known to you that General Lanz from September 1943 onwards, until the fall of 1944, was engaged in constant conferences and negotiations with General Zervas through his officers. Please answer this question under oath.
A. I repeat under oath that they are lied.
Q. Do you know by whom these negotiations were initiated?
A. All I can repeat is that in October, 1943, General Lanz sent a delegation to Skiadales; and that in October 1943 the Germans sent a delegation to Skiadales which consisted of the Arch Bishop of the deputy of the Arch Bishop of Jannina, and of some representatives of the Red Cross, and also of the Mayor of Jannina. On the second occasion, the Germans sent the Arch Bishop of Arta, and the physician Konvorossos.
Q. Witness, according to your knowledge was the task, - according to your knowledge of these delegates of General Lanz, what did these delegates say about their orders?
A. They said that in case the attacks on the part of General Zervas' troops should not cease against the Germans, they would resort to drastic measures against the population, - civilian population.
Q. Witness, is it correct that these delegates proffered something quite different to General Zervas, namely, mutual trust. That is an agreement that both parties were to cease fighting, and I may mention it here, in order to spare the civilian population?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I object to the question. He is bound by the answer of the witness.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Overruled.
A. That is the way Mr. Defense counsel puts it. In reality, however, it is exactly so as I said, namely that if the attacks on the part of General Zervas' forces would not stop, then the civilian population would have to suffer under it. But I shall give you additional information, now Mr. Defense counsel, which you possibly did not think about.
Q. First of all, I would like you to answer this question more clearly. I maintain that General Lanz proposed to General Zervas that the troops of both parties should not fight against each other, because only the civilian population would suffer from this, and I am asking the witness whether that was the proposal of General Lanz?
A. Yes, he did, and that was followed by the operations against Ligiar where everybody was killed, on the 3rd of October, 1943.
Q. Witness, I am still concerned with the negotiations, and I am asking you is it correct that General Zervas declared to be in agreement in principle with what General Lanz proposed? I would like to add something else. Is it also correct that General Zervas also declared that he demanded as a counter-service from General Lanz, supplies of German arms and ammunition, because he, General Zervas, needed it for the national Greek resistance movement or insurgent movement against the Communists?
A. No.
Q. This condition was not advanced by General Zervas then?
A. No, that's not correct, because when this proposal was made, British mission officers were also present. Colonel Barnes was one of them, and Thomas Marinos. In any case, this was not the way it was put and they immediately sent the report to headquarters in the Middle East.
Q. Witness, I am putting it to you that these negotiations to which I am talking to you, - that British officers were not present at these conferences. Do you maintain your assertion, that the British officers also attended these negotiations?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honors, I object to the question. I think Dr. Sauter is arguing with the witness.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Overruled.
A. We have the numbers of the telegrams at out headquarters files in the Middle East.
Q. Witness, we are not talking about figures now, and telegrams. Rather you maintained that at that time, British officers attended those negotiations, and I asked you--
A. The British officers who were present were the ones who had sent and signed those telegrams I am talking about.
Q. Witness is it known to you that at the beginning of October 1943, at the request of General Zervas, a discussion took place at ten o'clock in the morning about 15 kilometers to the southwest of Jannina, in a village called Hellenikon? What do you know about these conferences?
A Who was present there?
Q General Zervas was supposed to come, who had promised his personal attendance.
A Well, let's make a difference now between the two, was he supposed to come or what? Was the General supposed to come? I didn't quite understand your question. I don't know whether you meant the person was to come or had come or what.
Q I said that General Zervas had promised to come to this conference in person. Instead he sent an officer, a captain and sent apologies through this Captain, and he conveyed through this captain that this captain was empowered to conduct the negotiations. Just a moment. And in lieu of General Lanz, Colonel Dietl appeared as the Chief of Staff of General Lanz.
A I believe when I gave you that testimony before, I was referring to the third attempt which was made by the Germans and which took place around the 13th of October 1943, at which time they had made a proposal that General Zervas should designate a place where they were to meet.
Q Yes, and General Zervas designated a place.
A The General communicated that information to General Headquarters of the Middle East, and we have as evidence the telegram which was sent there by Tom Barnes, and the Headquarters of the Middle East stated that this was probably an old German trick. And that is probably what the defense counsel is referring to, namely, that this officer went and told them that there would be no such thing.
Q Do you know anything about this, Witness--that this officer drove to Jannina and received a letter from Colonel Dietl in Jannina, and that this officer personally handed this letter from Dietl to Zervas?
A You're referring to a letter by General Lanz, aren't you?
A Yes, I mean a letter from General Lanz to General Zervas.
A I know of no such thing.
Q Witness, do you know anything of this--that vice versa General Zervas also wrote personally to General Lanz regarding these dis cussions?