AAs far as I remember, every defendant had a defense counsel before the Special Court. That also referred to foreigners. Every foreigner, of course, had an interpreter. The interpreters were, as I know, Gestapo officials. I remember one case where a young defendant - if I am not mistaken he was a Dutchman who did not speak a word of German at any rate did not understand German - was shouted at by Cuhorst because he expressed himself slowly and clumsily and was afraid. Cuhorst, in the Swabian dialect which at that time I did not understand very well, even used some insulting expressions, abusing expressions, so that the defendant in the end started to tremble and even to cry.
TEE PRESIDENT: We will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
MR. MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. LA FOLLETTE:
Q: Witness, I want to ask you, where are you employed now and what are you doing?
A: At the District Court in Koblenz at the Civil Chamber.
Q: May I ask you whether or not you made it a policy, as often as you could, to get within hearing distance of the defendant Cuhorst as he walked about in the courtroom or near the courthouse at Stuttgart? Just that. Did you make it a policy?
A: Yes, as far as my time permitted me to do so.
Q: I will ask you whether or not you have heard him use this phrase; "Well, today we have only three cases. That must make at least two heads." Did you ever hear him say that?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you give the Court some idea of how often?
A: Well, when the session was supposed to start I was standing in front of Cuhorst's office, or near there, where he had to pass. I followed him or preceded him, and I heard the remarks which he made to his associate judges. At that time I repeatedly heard remarks to the effect, "Well, today we have to finish in a hurry, We have three cases. That will certainly result in two heads. Or, "Today another case is coming up; something will fall off again." Or, once a prosecutor or a judge asked, "A trial again?" And he said, "Yes; we will produce some heads for you." And once I recall exactly that he said, "Now, gentlemen, this is the end; on to the gay battlefield."
Q: May I ask you, is that "battlefield" or "slaughter"? Will you repeat that for the record please?
A: Slaughter field.
MR. LA FOLLETTE: It was "slaughter field", was it not, Miss Interpreter?
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it was "slaughter field", yes; I am sorry.
MR. LA FOLLETTE: That was rather important for me.
BY MR. LA FOLLETTE:
Q: I will ask you whether you witnessed the Kappler trial in which a man was sentenced to death or killing a policeman, and how long that trial lasted.
A: That trial lasted, as I remember very carefully, for exactly 15 minutes. I am not mistaken; not 50, but 15.
Q: Now, I will ask you whether you ever heard the defendant Cuhorst use this statement, "Well, it doesn't matter if we do not get him; I will let him go up the chimney through the Stapo."
A: A similar remark was made by Cuhorst. He was standing on the follor near his office and was talking to some judges, or associate judges, about a case. He was talking softly in part so that I could not hear him, but in part he spoke loud enough. Apparently they did not agree as to the measures to be taken or as to the sentence to be passed. After a lengthy argument Cuhorst cut off the discussion He said, "It doesn't matter; it isn't of any Importance if we don't get him this way. Then I will let him go up the chimney through the Stapo." He spoke in the Suebian dialect, and I cant imitate him. "I will let him go up the chimney", that is what he said.
Q: Do you know what that term meant?
A: At first I didn't know it. At that time I had not heard anything about shooting people or burning them. I asked a colleague of mine at that time; I told him that Cuhorst had made this remark, and I asked him what it meant to "let him go up through the chimney."
My colleague told me, "Why don't you know? That is, the Gestapo burns the corpses it has murdered."
Q: Now, he seemed to be in a hurry, and impatient when he was conducting trials, did he not?
A: Yes, he certainly was. He hurried people up always, and he asked to expedite the case. He said, "We don't have time for lengthy nonsense."
Q: Again referring to the Kappler case, I will ask you whether or not he said, in substance, to the defendant and to his counsel, "Don't make any fuss today, we have no time."
A: And what was the extent of the defense, or the statement that his defense counsel -- Kapoler's defense counsel -- made then?
A: The defense counsel was apparently intimidated by this remark and answered, "Well, gentlemen, I am a defense counsel appointed by the Court. We have a clear case here, as the presiding judge says, What shall I do now? I can't do anything but ask that he be a tolerant judge."
That was approximately the entire plea made by defense counsel.
Q: Were you a member of the SA?
A: Yes, I was a formal member, since 1933.
Q: While you were in Stuttgart, or before?
A: No.
Q: Before that, yes?
A: No, not while I was in Stuttgart. I joined the SA in Koblenz, as I was asked to join the SA as a spy, let us say, and I was a so-called member until 1944, without rank only in the Central Intelligence Office, in order to be able, at this particular place, to investigate the plans of the SA and the Nazis on the whole, if possible, at first hand.
Q: I ask you whether or not, during these times, you were arrested three times by the Gestapo and your house was searched?
A: At my home there were searches made twice, once in 1933 and once in 1934. The Gestapo arrested me three times, that is to say, not with a warrant of arrest, but once when there was a procession by Catholic youth in Cologne, in which I had participated, and I became noticeable by remarks I had made, I was arrested and interrogated. Once I was arrested, on the basis of a denunciation, at the main station in Koblenz. The third time was after, let us say, a fight with an old Party member on the basis of my interference with his malicious remarks about ecclesiastical matters, and so forth. I was arrested by the Gestapo immediately after this fight which I had with him. However, probably because I seemed to be a member of the SA, it was very easy for me to extract myself from this affair, so that I was not in detention for a long time.
Q: When did you leave your work at Stuttgart?
A: On the 18th of August 1943, I took the big state examination, and one day later I left Stuttgart.
Q: And when did you come to Stuttgart?
A: That was at the end of January 1943. I believe it was approximately the 20th of January.
Q: So you were there from the 20th of January until the 20th of August, or six months; is that right?
A: Until the 19th of August, yes.
MR. LA FOLLETTE: I think that is all. You may crossexamine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. BRIEGER:
Q: Witness, I believe that you had forgotten to state your exact personal data. Please tell us again, in addition to your last name, your first name; and please tell us all of your first names.
A: Dr. Loduchowski, Hans, Willi, The name I am called by is Hans. I am 31 years old.
THE PRESIDENT: I wonder if we could have the spelling of the last name.
THE WITNESS: Willi?
THE PRESIDENT: The last name.
THE WITNESS: Oh. My last name: L-O-D-U-C-H-O-W-S-K-I.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
BY DR. BRIEGER:
Q: Where were you born, witness?
A: In Koblenz.
Q: Please?
A: In Koblenz/
Q: Oh, you were born in Koblenz?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you state your exact date of birth?
A: 22 May 1916.
Q: 22 May 1916. Where did you study?
A: Only in Bonn.
Q: What did you say?
A: Only in Bonn, at the University of Bonn.
Q Who were your professors of criminal law there?
I can't understand you, witness, please speak a little louder It is impossible to understand you.
A Professor Count zu Dona, and Professor von Weber, manily. Of curse there were others too. Professor Kugler.
Q where did you take your Referendar examination, and what was you grade?
A Before the District Court of Appeal in Cologne, with the note "C", Sufficient, or "Passing".
Q And your big state examination? Where, on what date, and what grade?
A On the 18th of August 1943, before the District Court of Appeal in Stuttgart, with the Grade "fully satisfactory." Doctor's examination on the 19th of December, 1940, with the grade "good".
Q Where did you study?
AAt the University of Bonn.
Q Where did you write your Doctor's thesis?
A University of Bonn.
Q Who were your Referenten for your Doctor's thesis?
A Graf zu Donau and Dr. von Weber.
Q What grade?
A Good.
Q Where did you want to take your Doctorate?
AAt the University of Bonn.
Q You stated that your Doctor's thesis was published.
A Yes.
Q What was its subject?
A Crimes of killing in the district of Koblenz, murder, manslaughter, and the killing of children, from 1910 to 1939.
Q Who was the publisher?
A The publisher was Walter Biedermann, in Jena.
Q Was it necessary that your Doctor's thesis, when it was published, had to be submitted to the office for the Examination of National Socialist Literature, or something like that-- you know what I am referring to--in order to examine your thesis as to its National Socialist reliability?
A Not by me. However, in accordance with a directive, the University submitted every thesis that was published, as far as I know, to the RSHA of the SS. Professor von Weber twice returned my thesis to me because he could not assume the responsibility, with his name for what I had written in this thesis without endangering himself and me.
Q What was Professor von Weber's first name? Because there are several prominent men with that name.
A Hellmut, spelled with two "1's". He was from Jena.
Q Do you know where Professor Weber is living now?
AAt the present time he is Dean of the University of Bonn, the law faculty.
Q What was supposed to be the Subject of your professor's thesis? That is, of your habilitation thesis?
A The subject was not quite definite. It was supposed to deal with delicts, such as killing, and the penalty, and especially the value of the death penalty as a deterring factor, as well as the possible elimination of Article 217, the privilege of child murder. I don't consider that to be just.
Q What literature did you use mainly for your thesis? Did you, for instance, use list as to the attitude towards the death penalty?
MR. LA FOLLETTE: Just a moment.
Now I must object , Your Honor. I don't see that it is relevant or pertinent to his testimony.
Now just a moment, Dr. Brieger.
DR. BRIEGER: Pardon me.
MR. LA FOLLETTE: He has given all the answers that he could as to his preparation, and it wouldn't make any difference whether he had ever written a doctor's thesis if he can hear, and he heard what he heard and he testified to it. That is all I asked him.
THE PRESIDENT: I think that this is cross-examination to credit, and the objection is overruled.
BY DR. BRIEGER:
Q Did you use the writings by List for your thesis?
A When I took my oral examination I believe I stated 115; in my introduction I listed 115, and I believe the one by List too.
Q Do you know List's attitude to the death penalty? Are you familiar with it? May I ask you to tell that to us?
AAt the moment-
Q Did you use a book that he published together with Aschenoff?
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Did the witness desire to answer the previous question? Did you wish to answer that question?
THE WITNESS: If I am able to, of course, but of course I cannot remember individual writings in detail, or whether it was in this particular one. However, I used the Penal Code by List, and his other writings. I do not remember one hundred percent the individual views; of the authors, because there were very many points of view; at least at the moment I cannot recall that.
BY DR. BRIEGER:
Q You cannot state any details in regard to that question, witness?
AAt the moment I cannot recall what was List's view on that subject.
Q Professor Graf zu Dona knows you well? You would assume that?
A Professor Graf zu Dona knew me very well, but he is dead
Q Professor Weber, is he dead?
A He is living.
Q Oh, he lives.
May I know how old you were when you took your second state examination?
A In 1943 I Was 27.
Q May I know how old you were when you took your Referendar examination?
A That was three years before, 24.
Q Twenty-one?
A Twenty-four.
Q at 24 you took the Referendar Examination. Where did you join the SA?
A In Kbolenz.
Q In what year?
A October 1933.
Q October, 1933? In 1916 you were born; that means you were 17 years old.
A Yes.
Q Do you know the regulation that nobody who is under 18 is allowed to join the SA? How did you overcome the difficulty?
A I am very happy about that question. I can tell you that it was just my intention, as a 17-year-old, and than a member of a Catholic youth organization, not to join the Hitler Youth where I couldn't learn anything because I couldn't investigate anything there, but, in particular, to join a so-called military organization which at that time, so to speak, was above the Hitler Youth and which had a central intelligence office from which place I could gain my information at the source and forward that.
Q Where was that Central Intelligence Office?
A This Central Intelligence Office was in Koblenz, in the Castle.
Q For whom did this Central Intelligence Office work?
A That was the Central Intelligence Office of the SA.
Q Oh, of the SA.
A Supposedly for internal traffic.
Q You said that you were a scout. Were you at that time too?
A I was sent into the SA to get information.
Q If you were there to obtain information, I assume that you had a commission from somebody to do so.
A Yes, that is how it was. First of all, in 1933, I had one commission, and later I got several more.
Q Who gave you the assignment in 1933?
A. The so-called Catholic action group; that is a Catholic Youth organization. In 1934 the International Friendship League in London was added. I became an honorary member of it.
Q Please repeat that so I can get it. In what English organization are you an honorary member?
A International Friendship League.
Q What kind of an organization it that? Is that one of young students?
A It is an international student organization.
Q So you said you worked for the Catholic action grown?
A Catholic Action.
Q Who, of the Catholic Bishops, knows you well?
AArchbishop of Trier, Kornwasser.
Q Which other Bishops? You don't have to enumerate them all, two or three names are enough.
A I don't knew any others personally.
Q You don't know any others personally?
A No, only through intermediaries.
Q To what SA unit did you belong?
A That was not a Sturm unit, it was the SA intelligence Division of the Group Westmark.
Q The Official designation of the Group, please, as it was used at that time?
A Group Westmark; Westmark.
Q And what subdivision did you belong to? I want to know the smallest unit.
A I didn't belong to any unit; I was merely in the Central Office as an observer.
Q Please name two or three of your official superiors at that time.
A One name was Bertram. I hardly know grades at all to this very day; I never was interested In them. Another one was Kraemer, I believe, who had oak leaves, or I don't know what his rank was.
Q None of the names of your superiors at that time are familiar to you?
A I just told you, Kraemer, and one with oak leaves.
MR LA FOLLETTE: Pardon me. Your honor, I think I must object to what amounts, in my opinion, to abuse of the witness and particularly the reference to the Friendship League, because I remember that Dr. Brieger made a big speech here about the martyrdom of the Solf family. I am sure he doesn't object to people who are opposed to war.
DR BRIEGER: Of course not, no.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness seems to be able to take care of himself.
DR. BRIEGER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, let me ask yon one question. You first told us that you were working in, and we understood for, the SA.
In reality, what you mean is that you were in the SA but you were working for the Catholic organization; is that correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, that is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
BY DR. BRIEGER.
Q What was the year when you joined the SA?
A 1933.
Q It was 1933?
A Yes
Q How often were you at Nurnberg Party Days?
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. You are given a very wide scope in your cross-examination by reason of the fact that you apparently desire it, but you have asked that question three of four times. It is unnecessary to badger the witness at all.
DR. BRIEGER: No, please. May I have the permission to again ask that question?
BY DR. BRIEGER:
Q How often did you take part in Nurnberg Party meetings?
A Never. I never attended any meetings, not even a local group meeting. I always went about in civilian clothes. I did not own a uniform. Occasionally, for purposes of information, I went to this Central Intelligence Office, in each case for a special assignment, and, in my entire life, perhaps 25 times.
Q Witness, you said yourself that it was impossible, at that age, to be accepted in the SA. May I ask you what your unusual Party services were which made it possible for that minimum age requirement to be eliminated?
MR. LA FOLLETTE: That constitutes argument with the witness, abuse of the witness, and badgering of the witness. I am getting a little bit tired of it now.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection sustained.
MR. LA FOLLETTE: Maybe some of the other defense counsel would like to send notes up too; I would appreciate that.
THE WITNESS : I don't not want to be protected. I will answer any question. I don't see why I should shirk any questions at all.
It was like this. As a member of the Catholic Youth, I did not want to join the Hitler Youth which at that time was regarded in the world as especially high hat. In particular, I wanted to join the SA, and a chaplain, Oskar Stein, the first person who gave me an assignment, mediated for me, so in spite of the fact that I was only 17 years old allegedly the youngest SA man in Koblenz, I became a so-called member.
Q Are you still in touch with Chaplain Stein?
A No. Unfortunately, Chaplain Stein has died.
Q Where were you employed as SA man when there was a pogrom against the Jews in October 1938 after the murder of von Rath?
A I almost have to laugh about that question.
Q I assume that you were used as informer.
AAt that time I was studying at the University of Bonn. In order not to be employed in addition to my informing activities to have to do serious service I, if ever possible, had leave given to me in order to change from case to case. When allegedly I had time at my disposal I went to the SA in accordance with my assignments in order to gather some information there. In this way in Koblenz I said I am doing SA service in Bonn, and in Bonn I said I am serving with the SA in Koblenz. In actuality I did not serve anywhere. But only when it was necessary I went there. Moreover, and I forgot to say this, I frequently for months was in Africa, Asia Minor, or Europe outside of Germany, so if I add up all these times, I was away from home for a long time.
Q During what years did you make these long trips abroad?
A My first trip abroad I took in 1933, and the last in 1940 to Switzerland on an assignment of the IFR.
Q Were you overseas?
A Only in Africa.
Q What did you say?
A Only in Africa.
Q Where were you in Africa?
A Morocco, Algiers, Congo, Tunisia, Egypt, the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan, Eritrea, Arabia, then in Asia, Turkey.
Q Did you do that for your own means? I am not interested where you got the money, but were you sent by an organization, and if so, state which one.
A The actual financing was not necessary for me. As a German, however, it was necessary that I had foreign currency while I was in foreign countries, and this I received through good intermediaries via the Deutche Bank, in part, and so-called certificates of urgency, in part, even through the University, through the University Prof.
Dr. Kunkel.
Q Where is Prof. Kunkel today?
A I don't know.
Q As SA man after some time you automatically were accepted as a Party member, is that correct?
A No.
Q Well, how did you avoid it?
A Of course later on when I had passed my little first state examination I was frequently urged to join the Party. However, I told them what I intended to do, that is, to become a professor. I based my constant refusal to join the Party or even to visit any meeting by saying, after all, I am a member of the SA. I could cover everything by that, the same way that I achieved my release from the Gestapo.
Q Were you drafted into the Wehrmacht?
A In 1941 for 28 days.
Q What was that?
A In 1941. Only 28 days.
Q Why not longer?
A That was again something that I achieved by having good friends of mine declare me 4-F, that is to say, to send me home, but there is a reason for this. I have an injury on my shoulder, but normally I would not have been released from the army.
Q Have you passed your denazification board proceedings?
A I am from the French zone. They don't have any denazification boards there yet.
Q Whore did you fill out your questionnaires?
A In Koblenz, on the first day after the Americans occupied to Maj.
McKiefer.
Q What evidence in your favor did you present on the questionnaire?
A I didn't understand your question.
Q What formal incriminating statements did you make in your questionnaire? Or let me ask you this way, were you a member of the SS?
A No.
Q The Waffen SS?
A Never.
Q Were you used with the destroying troops in the East?
A I believe that the question is ridiculous, almost. I was in nothing except the SA and the Lawyers' League.
Q You said that you were an informer or an informant. Were you used in concentration camps?
A. No.
Q I now come to the Stuttgart complex. In what capacity did you go to Stuttgart? As Referendar, if I understood you correctly.
A Yes. My last stage of preparation had to be served in a District Court of Appeal, and since Cologne was at that time already too loud, I reported to Stuttgart whore it was somewhat more quiet.
Q For my information, what year was this?
A 1943.
Q 1943?
A Yes, in January.
Q To what court were you assigned?
A I believe at that time it was the Fourth Civil Senate, and under President Goetz, and the District Court of Appeals Counsellor Irion and Dr. Freuling.
Q Were you working only at the Fourth Senate?
A I don't want to say that with certainty, but I believe it was the Fourth Senate. In any case, only in one senate.
Q Did you have to be introduced to the Chief President at that time to introduce yourself?
A I don't know what was his name. He examined me. Keunster, or Kuestner, I believe.
Q Was he a younger gentleman or an older gentleman?
A He was an elderly gentleman, rather tall.
Q What did you work in the Senate consist of?
A The drafting of opinions and sentences and attending sessions and advising. That was all.
Q Did you know at that time from whom you took your examination in Stuttgart?
A District Court of Appeals President Kuestner, then the Senate President Dr. Muenzel, and I didn't know the other gentleman.
TEE PRESIDENT: Dr. Brieger -
DR. BRIEGER: I want to test his credibility, your Honor. I shall finish this group right away, this group of questions, and then I will come to the essential point.
THE PRESIDENT: I have not yet made my statement to you, Dr. Brieger. If you will wait until you hear what I have to say -
DR. BRIEGER: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I extended you a very wide scope in permitting you cross examination to credit, and we think it is now time for you to proceed to cross examine, if you desire, concerning any matter which this witness has stated and which affects your client. Proceed along that line.
DR. BRIEGER: All the questions pertain to the credibility of the witness, your Honor, so far.
BY DR. BRIEGER:
Q Now I shall again start with that time when you had an opportunity to observe Cuhorst's activity at the Special Court. For my own information, may I ask you quite briefly again, what period was that?
A 20th of January. That is supposedly a few days later. I didn't go there the first day, so let us say approximately the beginning of February until shortly before my examination.
That was on 18 August, 1943.
Q 1944?
A No, 1943.
Q Oh, 1943. 1943. Do you recall how long you took advantage of this opportunity?
A What do you mean?
Q For half a year. I mean, until what month?
A Shortly before my examination.
Q That was what date?
A 18 August 1943.
Q Oh, august, 1943. Yes, yes. Did you only attend cases at the Special Court or also at the Penal Senate, or how was it?
A Not at the Penal Senate, but the People's Court. One session of the People's Court I did attend.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Do you mean People's Court or Special Court?
THE WITNESS: People's Court. The People's Court which once held a session for a few days, I believe for a few days, in Stuttgart. I believe it was because of a number of Czech Communists. The maid defendant was a so-called Mitrepa waiter, that is, an European dining car waiter.
BY DR. BRIEGER:
Q accordingly, may I quote the names of a number of cases to you?
A I can't answer you that. I don't know any names. Outside of Kappler I don't know any names.
Q Accordingly then may I quote you the names of some cases and you can tell me, or you can tell the Tribunal, or tell me, your observations Did you attend the Oehlbach case?
A I can tell you that your efforts are entirely with any point, because I don't know any names. I have to confess that I have a very bad memory for names, and even on my own practice as a judge I can hardly remember any names, because I don't attach any importance to names.
I Know the content, but no names. I believe I won't be able to name any name to you. To be sure, some criminals or offenders who were executed, led to the execution, I still know. Among others, Henriette Wagner, a man named Asterle, and as far as I recall, the Prince Hohenlohe Langenburg.
Q Prince Hohenlohe Langenburg?
A Yes, I believe that was his name. He was a prince, in any case.
Q You say you know that they were led to the execution. How often did you attend executions yourself?
A In Stuttgart I believe four times. I was present during executions. How many cases there were, I don't know. I made careful reports and charts about them, or diagrams. The first were 24 cases, which were finished in 50 minutes.
Q Did you have a stop watch with you?
A No, but as I already told you, I didn't go there for my own pleasure, but as an informant, and therefore I kept my eyes open and paid attention.
Q Were you obligated officially to go to these executions?
A On the contrary, it was even forbidden. I managed to get into the confidence of the then Senior Public Prosecutor Dr. Link. I reported to him that I intended to write a thesis on this field for my professorship. Ho was very enthusiastic, and thus permitted me to attend opening sessions and executions.
Q Did you always go there with Schwarz, that is, with the Assessor Eberhard Schwarz, of did you sometimes go alone?
THE PRESIDENT: It seems to me that counsel had undertaken to inquire concerning the matter relative to his client Cuhorst. You have not been doing so. Will you proceed along that line.
DR. BRIEGER: Yes, yes, your Honor.