In Article II those so-called formations -Gliederrungen -- are named: the SA, SS, National Socialist motor Corps, the hitler Youth, the NS University Lecturers League, the NS German Students League, the NS Women's League are formations -- Gliederrungen -- of the National Socialist German Workers Party.
Q. Now, this question becomes understandable. Did you belong to any formations of the party?
A. I never belonged to any formation -- Gliederung -- of the party, but I did belong to the affiliated organizations which I have already mentioned. The difference is that the formation -- Gliederung -- is a component of the party and has no legal status on its own; whereas the affiliated associations have a legal status which is completely separate from that of the party, and they also may possess their own property.
Q. Did your wife or your daughter belong to the Nazi Party?
A. No.
Q. Your daughter went to High School and at the beginning of the war she went to a university. Why, like other girls , did she not join the NSDAP after she had been in the Hitler Youth?
A. That rested, with herself. She told me that she was not interested in political things and that she didn't want to join the party. I told her she could do as she liked and I said that that was a very personal matter which was for her to decide and she preferred not to join.
Q. Was it possible that that might affect her career at a later time?
A. Yes, obviously . Concerning marry women.'s professions, the NSDAP was the only one in charge and it was always a condition that if you wanted to join that profession you had to be a member of the Nazi party. But that wasn't so important. Many people were excluded for other reasons from other things.
Why should somebody got voluntarily accept such situation?
Q. Did you, in Party circles, have sufficient influence to achieve that?
A. That question never played a part with us, because in the field of religious or political views everybody should go their own way; whether it was my wife or my daughter or myself, it was all the same. In those spheres of life one cannot lay down the law to people and one cannot exercise any pressure. Therefore, the idea that I should have done anything for my daughter in that respect, that idea never occurred to me.
Q. In the affidavit 221, the witness Gross said that he had joined the Party because pressure had been exercised on him.
A. I only heard for the first time that people had joined the Party because pressure was exercised on them, during the last two years when I passed through various camps. Before the catastrophe, although I met a great many people and although I met people of all professions and occupations, I never heard of one single case where anybody told me that any pressure had been exercised on him and that, therefore, he had joined the NSDAP. Today it is altogether the other way around. Everybody is trying hard, if possible, to have joined the Party either when he was asleep or when he was otherwise in a state in which he could not be taken into account. I never heard of such things.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will recall the suggestions that I have already made to you concerning the matter of the interpretation of the motives of other people. I trust that you will adhere to the suggestion that the Tribunal has made.
THE WITNESS: I did not want to transgress that ruling, but I only interpreted the question to mean what were the experiences that I had.
BY DR. KOESSL:
Q. A person who did not join the Party, did he have to fear that anything would happen to him ?
A. I did not see or hear of any case where a person who did not join the party came to harm. There is one exception, though. About that case, I can only tell here what I was told by somebody else, although it is a reliable source and I am referring to Dahmes, the president of the District Court in "Wuerzburg. He was an old, highly qualified civil servant from the old days. He was asked whether he didn't want to join the Nazi Party. The old gentleman replied something like this: At his age he was no longer interested in matters of that kind and the result was quite a violent affair which, in my view, was started by local fanatics, but at any rate, the outcome was that the gentleman had to be pensioned off. But, as a general phenomenon, these things did not happen.
Q. What happened about the formations of the Gliederrungen , for example of the SA? I am asking that question because Baur, Groben, Kunz -- those witnesses were members of the SA.
A. In the case of the SA, that was an entirely voluntary matter, in 1933 people joined the SA as a rule because by that step they wanted to make sure that they would be allowed to join the NSDAP, later on. They wanted to appear to be people of certain merits because of their membership with the SA. After the Roehm Putsch, the as we all know, was decimated legally by leaving people at liberty to leave the SA. From that time on just a simple sheet of paper was enough to get out of the SA. So that certainly membership with the SA was not based on any methods of compulsion or pressure.
Q. What offices did you hold in political leadership corps of the NSDAP?
A. Within the field of the party I did not hold any office at any place or at any time. In particular, I was never a political leader on any level.
DR. KOESSEL: I would like to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that the indictment in the case of every defendant who is charged with membership in a criminal organization, that it mentions every one with his rank. Only in the case of Rothaug the indictment merely says that he had been a member of the Leadership Corps of the NSDAP on the Gauleiter level. However, no reason is given for that assertion.
Q. Witness, in. the opening statement the Prosecution said that only members of the NSDAP could become members of the National Socialist Jurists League and that other persons could only be promoting members. Is that correct?
A. That is altogether wrong. Membership was, in the National Socialist Lawyers League, not tied to membership with the NSDAP. To speak of myself and hundreds of thousands of others, we had been members of the Jurists League since 1934, but only in 1937 and 19% we became members of the Nazi Party. The membership of the Jurists League was in no way tied to membership with the Nazi Party. Furthermore, these so-called promoting members are mentioned. Promoting members -- Foerderade Mitglieder -- that was something that existed with the SS. There were promoting members of the SS and there were also promoting members of the NS Air Corps. But there never were at any time or any place any promoting members of the NS Jurists League. You either were a member of the Jurists League or you were not. There were no half-way methods.
Q. Was the so-called Aryan principle adhered to in the Jurists league?
A. In the Jurists the Aryan principle was not altogether adhered to. The person who could still be a civil servant could also be a member of the Jurists League. That is to say, it didn't matter if, among the antecedents, there was one Jewish grandparent.
Q. By the designation of the function can one tell whether somebody held a party office or an office of an affiliated organization?
A. That question, too, has frequently played a part at this trial, and some of the answers to it have been somewhat complicated. Without knowing all the provisions and regulations, one can by the designation tell whether somebody belongs to the leadership corps or not. A person who was a political leader has included in the designation of his office the function, the word "leader," that is to say a "Reichleader," a "Gauleader", "Kreisleader," "Blockleader", "zell leader" -- all those are political leaders; in their official designation the word "leiter" , "leader" occurs. One must distinguish from those political leaders all the designations or functions where the word "waiter ---warte" occurs --- administrator. For example, Gaugruppenwalter, Gau Administrator; or, Kreisgruppenwalter, administrator. In the case of judges or public prosecutors, like the office which I held, in the case of this function where the designation Gaugruppenwalter was used -- administrator -- it is never possible that that person was a political leader. Those are simply functions not within the party, but within the so-called affiliated organizations. Therefore, one can tell by looking at the word who is a political leader and who isn't.
Q. In the opening speech of the Prosecution it says that you had been a Gau-gruppenleiter.
A. As you emphasized correctly, it says there that the leiterleader -- was the designation for the political leader, and so to fit me one turned the designation around by mistake and made it Gaugruppenleiter. Evidently that is an error. I was not a Gruppenleiter. Gaugruppenleiter -- that is exactly what I wasn't. There even wasn't a Gaugruppenleiter, -leader , - in the professional organization of the Lawyer's League, that is to say I was not a political leader.
Q. From when to when did you hold the office which you have just mentioned?
A.-I can't toll you by heart; I can't tell you from memory, but when I went to Berlin on the 1st May, 1943, that was the end; and, as far as I remember, I obtained the office at the end of 1938. Yes, the end of 1938 I believe.
Q. Who was your superior in the organization?
A. As concerns the organization of the Lawyer's League, the affiliated organization, I worked under the Gauwalter of the League, the Gau Administrator of that league, and I must add here that the Gau of the Jurists League consisted of several groups. There were the judges and public prosecutors; there were the legal administrators; there were the attorneys; and economic lawyers. It is possible that there may have been another group, but I don't remember. Those four groups formed the -- I was expressing that wrong. They formed the Gau of the Jurists League, and at the head of that Gau there was the Gauwalter, and at the head of those four individual columns there was in every case one Gaugruppenwalter. One Gaugruppenwalter for the matters concerning the judges and the public prosecutors; one Gaugruppenwalter for the attorneys; one Gaugruppenwalter for the affairs of the civil servants of the administration of justice; and one for the economic lawyers, who were jurists who worked in industry. That is to say as Gaugruppenwalter they were subordinate to the Gauwalter.
Q. In what way did those transactions of work develop between the various groups?
A. As concerns the work of my group, the group for judges, and prosecutors, the work which came to us from outside, that was handed to me to work on by the Gauwalter as far as he thought necessary. On the other hand, from the league itself, that is to say from our members, there were many inquiries which came to us and which we had to solve in some way or another. I had to work on such questions; prepare them. A decision in my capacity as Gaugruppenwalter I did not have to make.
Q. The office of Gaugruppenwalter, did that mean that you combined with your own office of the party ?
A. No, that was not so, but in order to be able to judge these conditions quite clearly, one needs to know this. One person could combine two offices, and a so-called Gauwalter in the Jurists League could simultaneously hold the office of a political leader. To name an. example, as a rule before Oeschey's days, that is to say in the days of Benzler, the Gaurechtsamtsleiter who held an office in the party and who, therefore, in the designation of his office, had the word"leiter" included, simultaneously was Gauwalter of the Jurists League. In his capacity as Gauwalter of the Jurists League, he was not a political leader, but in his capacity as Gaurechtsamtsleiter he was. In the case of Gauleiter -- so, that is slip of the tongue -- in the case of the Gruppenwalter -- his activities in the Lawyers' League and the Jurists League were not combined with an office as political leader.
Q. Could one have told that by the designation of office. I think you have given a sufficient explanation on that point. You need only answer yes or no.
A. Naturally the designation would have made that clear -- would have indicated that. The person who was also a political leader was called Gaurechtsamtsleiter, head of the Gau legal office, and Gauwalter, administrator , of the Jurists League, whereas the other person was merely called Gaugruppenwalter, group administration.
Q. Did you at Berlin or Rotsdam hold any office?
A. Neither in Berlin or in Potsdam did I hold any office.
Q. Do you know what your competent Ortsgruppe in the party was there?
A. I never found out because I had no time to bother about those things at that time.
Q. Do you know who was the Ortsgruppenleiter?
A. I did not ever find out about that either.
Q. Did you know any political leaders in your district?
A. At Berlin and Rotsdam I didn't.
Q. Did the Ortsgruppe ever approach you? After all, you were a member of the party.
A. Nobody approached me, but inquiries were made about me, not because I was a party member, but because that was a custom with the party. If anybody moved into a new district an attempt was always made to get hold of him, but I was never at home, and my landlady in Berlin somehow dealt with the matter.
Q. How was it that nobody bothered you?
A. Well, I never registered when I moved. Of course if one moved from one place to another he was supposed to re-register with the new Ortsgruppe at the place to which one had moved, but I never re-registered. I continued to pay my contributions in Nurnberg.
Q. What was the reason?
A. Because I wanted to be left in peace in Berlin, and I was so over-burdened with work that I had no time left for such matters.
Q. Did you yourself see any cause in war time particularly to apply for work?
A: Well, that question is answered by my saying that I thought the time had come to take the position which others had been holding in the Party for a long while, that is to say, to do nothing. Therefore, from that point of view, I was pleased with my transfer to Berlin because for some time, at least for a little time, I would be rid of having to cope with Party matters.
Q: Did you ever denounce any person, or did you ever cause any person to be denounced?
A: In my private life I never denounced anybody or saw to it that someone else denounced a third person. I assume that you are putting that question to me because I have been charged with having been a political fanatic, and because it is assumed that a fanatic, at some time or order in his private life, must have exercised some activity of his own. I can give an assurance that never in my life did I denounce any individual, neither in the criminal nor in the political field.
Q: Did you ever have any reason to denounce anyone?
A: I do not think it necessary to enumerate individual cases here, but I frequently heard of matters and the person who brought them to my notice certainly intended to make me take steps as a private individual. Through my family, too, such matters were brought to my ears. However, I rejected all those matters and, in particular, I explained very clearly to my wife and my daughter that even unintentionally, in any contact whatsoever, they were not to tell me about any experiences of their own which in fact they had because otherwise, by so doing, they would start steps being taken against others which, concerning the laws in force, might be of great significance to third persons.
We, as private individuals, did not wish, on any account, to assume responsibility for such matters.
I do not believe it necessary to enumerate the cases with which you are acquainted.
Q: On the 1st of May -- at page 2896 in the English transcript -- the witness Elkar called you, and I quote, "the highest authority on legal questions in the Gau of Franconia." A little later he calls you "the Spiritus Rector in the National Socialist Jurist's League."
Doebig says -- English transcript page 1775 -- you had been the leading spirit in the Jurist's League.
What influence did you exert on the Jurist's League as a whole?
A: First of all, may I say in general, particularly to the introductory question, that I consider that those opinions expressed about me are considerable exaggerations. As for having boon an authority on legal questions, that Is out of the question. I have always found that other people found it a great deal easier; they always dealt with problems far more quickly, particularly those who passed these opinions. In effect, the way with us was that questions which concerned my Gnu group, that is to say, the judges and prosecutors' groups, were passed on to me. I then gave my opinion on those questions. My opinion was passed on to the Gauwalter and he then passed the matters on in the routine way, which is the custom in every state; it was just passed on then to the next authority.
I really don't think that, at any time or at any place, I had to cope with a problem of world importance.
Q: Did you receive immediate instructions from the NSDAP and the Gauleitung concerning your work in the Jurist's League?
A: I never received such direct instructions from the Gauleitung.
A: What were your duties as Gaugruppenwalter in the Jurist's League for the judges' and prosecutors' groups?
A: In part that question has already been answered. All problems which fell within the scope of that professional organization, the Jurist's League, all problems which reached that organization could come to us from any quarter, as they could come from the population itself. All those problems were passed onto the Gaugruppenwalter for to deal with,and they were forwarded to that group, the members of which were in some way affected by the event under discussion.
On the other hand, naturally, we also had to cope with the particular difficulties and problems of our members and we had to take care of their affairs because, after all, they had joined a professional organization like ours for that purpose.
I should like to give a practical example to explain this matter, and I will give an example of an event which actually occurred, an event with which we had to deal.
When the Administration of Justice was centralized, certain offices of judges worm down-graded. Hero at the District Court of Nurnberg, for example, the Department Chiefs who had had the rank of Local Court Directors (Amtsgerichtsdirector), overnight, and only because the Administration of Justice was being centralized, were downgraded by one grade. That was done without it being their fault in any way. Naturally that caused a tension, and naturally the people whom it effected were very much annoyed. They came to see me and told me about the matter. As far as I remember they were not Party members, they were of the older generation, and they said that they had been treated in a way in which people only should be treated if they had violated service regulations.
I then gave a precise account of the occurrence, made a report, and drew attention to the fact that such treatment of officials was untenable. To begin with, Berlin was against taking any interest and they used the well-known slogan, "The interests of the people have to take precedence over the interests of the individual. However, by again and again digging away at the matter, we succeeded in solving the problem in a way which was satisfactory to everybody concerned.
That was, for example, one of the duties with which we bad to deal.
Q: As Gaugruppenwalter for the judges' and prosecutors' groups, did you have an office of your own?
A: I neither had an office of my own nor a staff of my own. I merely had my chair and my two hands. The work that I had to do there I did as an individual, and as a rule I wrote it out with my own hand. I then submitted the matters to the Gauwalter.
Q: Did you wear a uniform in that capacity?
A: Except when I was in the army, all my life I have never worn a uniform.
Q: Did the area of the Gau Franconia comprise the entire area of the District Court of appeal, or were there other Gau leaderships competent as well?
A: Perhaps I had better start with the area of the District Court of Appeal. The area of the District Court of Appeal of Nurnberg comprised the Gau Franconia. Besides, it also comprised large portions of the Gau Bayreuth, and one little corner of the Gau of Main-Franconia, but that corner is not important for our purposes here.
Q: Did you at that time have any relations with the Gauleitung in Bayreuth?
A: Not in the least; I had nothing to do with the Gauleitung in Bayreuth either over the telephone or by way of correspondence, although as much of my official work was done in that Gau as was done in the Gau of Franconia.
Q: Did you know Gauleiter Schemm at the time, or did you know Gauleiter Waechtler in Bayreuth?
A: I never came face to face with them.
Q: Did you have any correspondence with the Gauleitung in Bayreuth in those days, or did you talk to them over the telephone?
A: Never, not concerning any problem; and the Gauleitung at Bayreuth did not play any part with us, not concerning any proceedings.
Q: Did you know any of the political leaders at the Bayreuth Gauleitung?
A: Not a single one.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
(At 1630 hours, 11 August 1947, a recess was taken until 0930 hours, 12 August 1947.)
Bayreuth Gau are Amberg, and that is on the right half - right-hand half - and to the northeast Weiden. Then, in the right hand, in the middle of the lower half is Regensburg. Those are the three district court areas which are in the Bayreuth Gau.
Q What was the relationship in regard to the size of these districts to each other?
A In regard to the size of the two Gaus to each other, it was about the same, but I have to add that the Bayreuth Gau was only dealt with by our district court of appeal in part, and according to its entire extent it was much larger than the Gau Franconia.
Q You also exercised the activities of the special court in the Gau Bayreuth for the most part yourself?
A Yes.
Q Did you not feel the need to establish connections with the Gau Bayreuth?
A This idea never occurred to us at all; neither to me, nor to Oeschey, nor to Ferber. We never thought of establishing such a connection because for us it was a matter of course that the party had nothing to do with our activity.
Q Ferber in some parts of his testimony mentioned especially your good relationships with the Kreisleiters of the area of the district court of appeals. What is a Kreisleiter?
A A Kreisleiter was a so-called bearer of the sovereignty of the Kreis; that is of a part of a Gau.
Q In what places did the special court usually sit?
A The places where the special court held sessions, which may be important I later on, too, are Rothenburg on the Tauber, that is far to the left on the margin; then, Neustadt on the Aisch, that is northeast of Rothenburg, near the upper margin of the map. Then, Ansbach, that was the seat of a district court, and that I have already designated before. Then, in the Upper Palatinate, Neumarkt, that is to the southwest of Nurnberg, approximately at the middle of the map; Amberg is northeast of Neumarkt; Weiden is northeast of Amberg; Straubing is on the lower eastern corner of the map; Regensburg is to the northwest of Straubing; and Schwandorf is approximately in the middle half of the map.
Those were the places where the special court of Nurnberg was in session.
Q Did you know the Kreisleiter of Rothenburg on the Tauber?
A No.
Q Did you know the one of Neustadt on the Aisch?
A No, not either.
Q Or the Kreisleiter of Ansbach?
A I did not know him either.
Q The Kreisleiter of Nurnberg?
A I did know him.
Q When and where did you meet the Kreisleiter of Nurnberg? And what was his name?
A His name was Zimmermann, and I met him in the course of the year 1940. And I would like to state that on the 1st of April 1937, I came to Nurnberg.
Q Did Zimmermann participate in sessions?
A The possibility exists that perhaps he participated in the SchmidtFasel case which was repeatedly mentioned here. However, I can not state so with certainty; anyway, I cannot remember at all whether he took part in any sessions.
Q Did you have party or official connections with Zimmermann?
A Not in a single case.
Q Did you know the Kreisleiter of Neumarkt?
A The Kreisleiter of Neumarkt was a man by the name of Detzer, who, as far as I know, participated in the trial against Engelbauer. Later on, after the session, we were sitting in the station hotel of Neumarkt having a beer; we were sitting there together. I never saw that man again.
He was drafted and fell in action, as far as I heard, when he was flying over England.
Q Did you know the Kreisleiter of Amberg?
A: The Kreisleiter of Amberg I knew. I knew him because he mediated for us so that we could get a courtroom.
Q: Did you know the Kreisleiter of Cham?
A: I met the Kreisleiter of Cham in connection with the trial of the Schlemminger case, which is important here too. In that case we had eye-witness accounts taken in the village of Delflingen. In order to go to the village we needed a vehicle, which was put at our disposal by the Kreisleiter of Cham.
Q: Did he participate in the sessions?
A: As far as I remember, he participated in three to four sessions, in the audience.
Q: How large is this place Cham?
A: Cham must have some few thousand inhabitants.
Q: Did you know the Kreisletier of Regensburg?
A: I did not know the Kreisleiter of Regensburg; I don't even know his name.
Q: How large is Regensburg?
A: Regensburg is one of the bigger cities of Bavaria and certainly has more than a hundred thousand inhabitants.
Q: Did you see the Kreisleiter there?
A: I never saw him.
Q: Did you know the Kreisleiter of Straubing?
A: I did not know the Kreisleiter of Straubing either, and to this very day I don't know his name either.
Q: Did you see him in a court session, or anywhere?
A: He did not participate in any session on any occasion; otherwise I would have seen him.
Q: Did you know the Kreisleiter of Weiden?
A: I didn't know the Kreisleiter of Weiden either. On the other hand, I did know the Lord Mayor, Harber, of Weiden.
I met him because Georg Engert, who was examined as a witness here, occasionally introduced him into our circle as a relative of his.
Q: And finally, did you know the Kreisleiter of Schwandorf?
A: I did not know the Kreisletier of Schwandorf either, and until this very day I don't know his name either.
Q: What offices were asked about the political attitude of a judge and a prosecutor, and who made out the final qualifications?
A: Political qualifications were exclusively made under the responsibility of the competent bearer of the sovereignty, that is, the Kreisleiter or the Gauleiter. For these questions they had a so-called Kreis Personnel Office, or Gau Personnel Office. When a so-called political qualification of a civil servant was to be made, these offices addressed inquiries to offices where the civil servant or official concerned was known; that is to say, if he was a member of the NS Lawyer's League, they addressed an inquiry to the Gauwalter of the NS Lawyer's League, or, in another instance, to the competent office of the Civil Service League, or to the Ortsgruppe, Local Group of the Party, or to the SA or SS. The answers to these inquiries were then gathered at these offices and from there, if necessary, by reviewing or examining the facts that were reported, the so-called political qualifications report of an official was made out. This political qualification report was made out because the supervisory offices of this civil servant, by provisions of the law, were obligated to form a judgment on this question with the intervention of the Party.
Q: How did this develop in your case, and according to what principles did that proceed?
A: That was an affair which caused the least difficulty. The Gauwalter gave the slip that had been sent in by the competent Party office to the Gau Group Administrator who was competent for that official. That was I, myself, in the case of inquiries regarding judges and prosecutors, as long as I was entrusted with that function. I then returned the slip, after it was filled out, to the Gau Administrator again, who, on his part, then reported to the Party office.
It is important to know here that, according to an express order, a man who was a Party member was not permitted to be judged as politically unreliable as long as a Party disciplinary proceeding had not been carried out against him because of some established facts.
During the time of my activity in regard to that function, it is of significance that at that time almost all judges and prosecutors were members of the Party on account of the well-known action on the 1st of May 1937.
Q: Did you hear of a case in which a judge or a prosecutor was described as politically unreliable? And if so, what happened to that man?
A: In my time I did not hear of such a case. The declaration which we made in every case had the following stereotyped contents: "Circumstances which could raise doubts as to the political reliability of the person concerned did not occur."
Q: The witness Ferber, on the 3rd of April, in the morning, at page 1558 of the English transcript, stated that you had made difficulties for District Court Judge Roth when he wanted to get a position in Nurnberg. Did political reasons exist for this, and who prevented his promotion to Nurnberg?
A: The Roth case is very instructive and very illuminating. Roth was from my home town. He was seriously injured in the first World War; he lost one leg. My relationship to Roth was formerly a very friendly one. Later on he showed a certain reserve toward me.
The following facts were brought up against Roth: First of all, he was charged with having been aggressive against the Nazi Party, before the seizure of power, in his official capacity and outside, in Lauf or Hersbruck, where he was working as a judge.
A second occurrence with which he was charged was the following: Approximately in 1933-1934, embezzlement, scandals, etc., occurred in the NSV, the NS welfare organization, of Nurnberg. These matters were discovered and tried, and the offenders -- who in part played an important role in the Party -- were sentenced to long terms in the penitentiary. Roth, as an associate judge, wrote to the decision. In the opinion, to justify the heavy penalty, a speech by Streicher was referred to in which Streicher, in general, spoke in favor of more severe penalties. Thus it was concluded that Streicher had unintentionally been beaten with his own weapons, because the Party did not agree to these high penalties. That was the basis for the political animosity against Roth.