A It came to my attention, in connection with the occurrence in Braunschweig officials of the Administration of Justice who were members of the SS had been expelled from the SS.
Q Witness, didn't it become known what became of the senior prosecutor? Did he remain in the administration of Justice, or, did he have to leave?
A The senior prosecutor had to leave the Administration of Justice as far as I know.
Q Witness, did you receive the assignment from Minister Guertner in this dispute to interfere in Braunschweig?
A No, I never received any assignment of that kind.
DR. DOETZER: Thank you. I do not have any further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any other Defense Counsel who desire to make this witness their own? There appears to be none. You may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. KING:3 Dr. Joel, first just several preliminary questions in connection with our Exhibit 56 NG-915, your personal inventory which you signed last January.
I think you recall that. Several statements are in there; as a matter of information, I would like to check them with you. You say in there that -- I quote: "I never belonged to the SS or to the SA, etc." That pertains to your testimony which you gave yesterday, is that right?
A I understood that I had stated that I never belonged to the SS and the SA.
Q That is right. And you don't want to change that. That is still
A No.
Q Yes. Then in connection with your party membership, you say you never received a membership book. Could I be enlightened as to what a membership book of the party is?
A Until the time when I was heard as a witness in the IMT trial, I always considered myself a member of the party, but I have learned here that in order to be a member one has to have a party membership book, and has to be sworn in.
Both did not occur in my case. That is why I made that statement -- in the same manner as you can find I believe in Exhibit 56.
Q Yes, that is correct. You say in connection with that statement that you never knew your party number. Is that substantially correct, too?
A Yes. The number which I stated is the number which I found on a red so-called temporary or preliminary membership card.
Q What number is that; you didn't state a number in your questionnaire because you said you couldn't remember.
A Well, it is true that I can't remember that number, but I found it here in the personal file.
Q Did you know your number before you came to Nurnberg this last time?
A No, I only know it was a number somewhere in the three millions or two millions.
Q You never knew your number?
A The number of the red membership card of course I used to know.
THE PRESIDENT: The time has arrived for our fifteen minute recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. King, before you commence your crossexamination, we have been again importuned on behalf of the defendant Pothaug, and we are not very greatly impressed by the reasons given on the basis of which, through his counsel, he asks for further time. It is unnecessary for us to recite the facts with reference to the time that all of these defendants have had because they are all matters of record. One consideration, however, had moved the Tribunal to give an assurance to this extent. We have agreed that the defendant Rothaug will not be required to take the witness stand at any time prior to Monday morning. The motion for extension of a period of one week is denied, and we don't want to hear any more applications for time from this defendant, by which I mean to say we think he is not entitled to any more. We have had a number of requests of this kind, most of which we consider unwarranted. This will give him a period of several days more.
The reason which moves us to this action, in part, is the fact that we desire, during this week, to have the document books which have been promised, but not yet delivered, by the defendants who have already taken the witness stant--to have them here, present then, and we will rule upon them.
One other matter. Dr. Haensel, we think it likely that you intended, before closing the examination, to offer your exhibits. You have only asked to have them marked so far. We would like also to clean up the matter of these exhibits marked for identification this week. We don't want to foreclose you the privilege of offering your exhibits, and we will allow you to do so.
MR. KING: Your Honor, with reference to some of them, we are. With reference to practically all of those that were offer this morning, we are not. I would like to suggest that Dr. Haensel make the offer in evidence of the exhibits from 11 on immediately after the lunch recess; at which time we will be in a position to tell him which exhibits we object to and why.
Also, prior to that time, I would like to discuss several defects in some of the documents, and I think we can avoid, in that way, taking the time of the Court. If Dr. Haensel and the prosecution can agree as to the contents, which isn't clear now, there is no point in bothering the Court with one of these at all.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well; that will be the order of business at 1:30 this afternoon.
You may cross-examine.
MR. KING: While we are on the subject of document books, and before I resume cross-examination, it has occurred to the prosecution that the Defense Information Center and / or the Translation Decision should be reminded that a delay in the production of the books--an unreasonable delay--seriously handicaps both the defense and the prosecution. We have not made an investigation in the last few days, but it does seen probable that cases that are not now in being are getting priority translation, ahead of the cases for which there is an urgent demand, such as the case here. I do not know what, if any power the Court has over the natter, but it has occurred to us that word from the Court might tend to remind them that there is a trial going on hear.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has already given then several words along that line. We do consider it of fundamental importance that these document books, so far as they have not been prepared, be completed and presented this week.
BY MR. KING:
Q. DR Joel, just prior to the recess we were talking about the matter of membership books, Party numbers, and how those two items affected you. I take it then, from what you said, that your lapse of memory as to your Party number. There is no question about that, is there?
A. I used to carry the red membership card in my pocket but the allied troops took it away from me.
When I carried it, I could always look the number up.
Q: Yes. So that when you say you never received a membership book, you are not saying that you had no Party indent if identification of any kind; you did have a red membership card which you carried with you and which contained the number?
A. Yes; yes, I did.
Q. And you carried that up until the end of the war.
A. Certainly; I had it among my papers.
Q. Yes. Are you familiar enough with the organization of the SS To be able to tell me whether is was customary for honorary members of the SS to have a membership number?
A. Yes; I assume so. Everybody who was somehow a member of the SS had a number.
Q. Yes; and you had a number in the SS, didn't you?
A. I had a number in the SD.
Q. You had a number in the SS too, didn't you?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. Does the number 290890 mean anything to you?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is that?
A. That is the number which is on my appointment which the SD Main Office made out in 1938.
Q. You wouldn't be likely, in your questionnaires submitted to the SS, to confuse the "SD" with "SS", would you?
A. No.
Q. I didn't think so. We will got around to that later. Now, your alleged honorary membership in the SS' if I recall your testimony correctly, was given to you while you were acting as liaison man with the SS, SD, and the Gestapo and the Ministry of Justice; is that correct?
A. I was given that rank in May of 1938, after the Minister of Justice, in December of 1937, had assigned me to be in charge of liaison and the duties connected with that.
Q. Yes, that is what you said yesterday. It is substantially correct the way I stated it; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you left the Ministry of Justice in August 1943 did you not?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And some time prior to that according to your testimony, you were no longer a liaison nan with the SS and SD. That is right isn't it?
A I said that officially I was not informed that I was removed from that position but that Minister Thierack apparently, in agreement with Himmler, had appointed a new liaison man from the RSHA.
Q Yes, I remember your testimony, or at least I am trying to stat it bery succinctly so that we won't have to go into the testimony which you gave yesterday. I an just trying to summarize it. Yes, we are in agreement as to what you said.
Now, can you tell me Dr. Joel, why, if your membership in SS was honorary and for the purpose of serving you while you were liaison man, that you continued to hold SS membership after our work as liaison man was completed?
A Well, I assume that I can tell you that althought I am-not familiar with any regulations and provisions about such cases. Anybody who once was given such a rank could only lose it by a procedure provided for by the SD, and I assume that there was no readon to institute proceedings against me on account of my leaving the Ministry or my not being used after Thierack become Minister.
Q. Yes, I understand your explanation. Now, according to your understanding, it was just a dormant matter since no action was taken to cancel your membership, right?
A No, I did not hear anything about it.
Q Well, tell me, why were you promoted a full rank in the SS nearly a year after you left the Ministry end went to Hamm? Excuse me; that isn't correct, Why were you promoted after you went to Hamm, shortly after you went to Hamm? You were promoted in November, 1943. That doesn't sound like you were an in active or on honorary member, does it?
A I can explain that to you very easily.
Please do.
AAfter I had become General Public Prosecutor in Hamm, when I visited Berlin, at a party which had nothing to do with politics beautiful women were present.
I met the former Colonel Freiherr von Morff, who had been made a personnel chief of the Waffen SS by the chief of the police. This Colonel asked me whether I had a rank in the SD and what my rank was, and when I told him that my rank was that of Sturnbahnfuehrer he told me that that was a rank that was appropriate for a Krimialrar - a criminal judge - that it did not at all suit the position of a General Public Prosecutor and that he would undertake some steps so that this rank of mine as Sturmbahnfuehrer would be somehow approximated rank in my civilian profession. I answered him neither with yes nor with no.
Q. And that is how you came to an Obersturmbahnfuehrer; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now along about the 24th of October, 1944-
JUDGE HARDING: May I interrupt you? Was that in the SS or the SD?
MR. KING: This is in the SS.
THE WITNESS: That is a question that can be debated. There are members of the SD who received a rank in the SD and there are members of the SD who did not receive a rank, and that there are members of the SD who, at the same time, are carried on the books of the SS. The SD main office appointed me in 1939. At that time the SD was an independant organization with its own SD main office. This SD main office, after the RSHA was created -- I believe that was in 1940 -- was incorporated in the RSHA. I believe as Department No. 3 that is the situation as I see it and this is, I believe, also in accordance with the view of the IMT.
THE PRESIDENT: The fact remains, does it not, that the title Oberstrumbahnfuehrer is a title in the SS.
THE WITNESS: Yes, but not of the General SS.
BY MR. KING:
Q. Dr. Joel, how did. you usually describe your membership?
A. Pardon me?
Q. How did you usually describe your membership? Did you say you were an honorary member in the SD? Did you say you were SS and give your rank or how did you describe yourself where it was necessary to do so?
A. Of course, I wrote SS Sturmbannfuehrer. I told you already I was not in the General SS, but I was SS leader at the SD main office. That can be seen quite clearly from the appointment that is in the documents.
Q. And what is that expected to convoy to the people to whom that information was sent? When you say, "I, Guenther Joel, am at present Obersturmbannfuehrer in the SS," and stop there, what is that supposed to convoy to the people who get that letter? Does that say anything about SD? Does that say anything about honorary membership? How do you distinguish that from the run-off-the-mill SS member?
A. Not at all. I did not worry about such matters at all. Why should I have worried about it?
Q. Did you ever complain because you were being wrongly listed? You are aware, of course, that the public prints occasionally refer to you as SS Sturmbannfuehrer or Obersturmbannfuehrer. Did you ever complain to anyone about misapplication of title or was that some one else's worry, as you say?
A. I never complained about the appointment. I knew that I was carried on the list of the SD main office and not at the main office SS. Why should I complain?
THE PRESIDENT: Merely to clarify your last question as to why you should be interested, your interest now becomes very normal because of the fact that you were charged with membership in a criminal organization.
THE WITNESS: The question which the Prosecutor addressed to me referred, as far as I understood it, to a time in the past and at that time I could not assume that this activity in the SS or SD or the Gestapo would later on be described as criminal; and my answer was to be understood in the light of that fact, namely, answer is that at that time I did not worry about such things.
BY MR. KING:
Q You will perhaps recall in Exhibit 423, the records of the SS personnel office, a letter which you wrote to the SS main office on the 24 of October 1944 and, as I said a few moments ago, you designated yourself as SS Oberstumbannfuehrer, and you see nothing unusual in that? What you really meant to say was that you were an honorary member in the SD but it was just a lip of the typewriter that it came out the other way. Is that right?
A I cannot recall that letter, but I did not make any distinction at all because it is obvious that there are SS leaders in the SD main office and leaders of the General SS.
Q All right. Are now sticking to your story that you were an honorary member or have we forgotten about that?
A Well an honorary member a man who has a formal right to wear a uniform and does not have any authority to issue orders to subordinates and I did not have that authority.
Q So, therefore, you think you were an honorary member; is that right?
A Yes, I believe so, because I was not a member in my main capacity.
Q You mean you didn't work full time at it?
A I was an official of the Ministry of Justice anyhow.
Q Yes, I know. What you mean is that you did not work full time, one hundred percent of your time, on SS activities; is that right? And for that reason you fell you were an honorary member?
A Yes, that is why I am saying it too and "because I did not have any authority to issue orders. I did not have the authority which was in accordance with my rank. Thus, I could not issue any instructions or the like to any offices in the SD.
Q Tell me how we are expected to know that you had no authority to issue orders? You designated yourself ass SS Obersturmbannfuehrer. You didn't say honorary. You did't say, "But I don't have authority to issue orders" How are we supposed to know that you didn't have that authority? What is there in the facts of your case which well help anyone to decide the question that you didn't have authority ti issue orders? Where is your SS personnel files, where else in the record or any whatever documents can you produce which would permit anyone to reach any other conclusion that you were an SS member the same as other SS members with an equivalent rank?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. King, will you attempt to ask one question at a time please? That is a bad question.
BY MR. KING:
A The situation as I saw it was as follows: The SD Main Office appointed me. I believe there is no doubt about that because the document confirming my appointment is here. If the General SS had appointed me, the appointment would not have been carried out by the SD Main Office, but the Main Office-SS, and this did not happen. I was among the members of the SD who gave their full time to the SD. I believe there's no doubt about that here. The prosecution introduced the witness Elkar here. He was SD leader and gave his full time to that duty here in Nuernberg. Thus there remains the only the honorary assistant who had the right to wear a uniform and I believe that is what I was.
Q And that's how are supposed....
A (Interrupting), I cannot submit any document to prove this.
Q Were there any SS rules and regulations or did people decide for themselves whether they wanted to be full time active or part time honorary?
A I can't tell you that. I don't know any regulations to that effect.
Q We'll come back to this question again.
Can you tell me, within a matter of a month or two, when your liaison work with the Gestapo came to an end?
A Officially, that was never annulled but it came to an end by having Ministerial Counsel Franke appointed. I saw the document confirming his appointment for the first time here.
Q Well, all right, what day was that? I mean, what month? Do you know, approximately?
A No, but It's very easy to find out because there is an exhibit here about that which has been submitted. I believe it was July or August, 1943.
Q In other words, Franke was appointed about the time you were transferred to Hamm?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q So you continued you liaison work up until you wore transferred to Hamm? That must have been so because you were the only one to do the job.
A No, that is not quite correct accuse I said that Theirack no longer used my services, in the document submitted by the prosecution - also, soon after Thierack assumed office - the RSHA appointed its own liaison leaders with the Ministry of Justice. This is the appointment of Sturmbannfuehrer Wanninger which was submitted here by the prosecution. I never met him.
Q Now, in Exhibit 510, which is NG 988, - now you referred to that yesterday - it is a distribution of work chart. You recall it? Page 29 in the English. I'm not sure of the page it's on in the German text. It shows that as of April, 1943, that you were still acting in your capacity as liaison officer with the SS, SD and the Gestapo. Now, I am to understand that you believe that Exhibit 510 does not portray the true state of facts at that time? April, 1943?
A That is listed in the work distribution plan. In spite of that, another document shows that already in December, 1942, Wanninger was appointed and I myself told you that Thierack did not tell me anything about these matters. This all happened without my knowledge and also, I believe, without the knowledge of the division chief who drew up this work distribution plan.
Q So that, to that extent, you think exhibit 510 is wrong?
A No, that is not what I am saying. I am only saying that I was no longer used for that service; that the opponent had appointed another one, and that apparently this person was in direct contact with Minister Thierack.
Q Take that one again.
So far as Exhibit 510 shows you as liaison nan with the SS, the SD and the Gestapo and the Ministry of Justice it is in error, is it not, according to your testimony?
A No, no that is not what I said. I said this listing of my name in the work distribution plan i correct, but already in December 1942, the RSHA had appointed another one. He was Wanninger and the prosecution submitted the document thou that effect too.
BY THE PRESIDENT: Q.X. Your point simply is this, that you were still officially the same as you had been, but another man was put in and from that time on you weren't required to perform so much duty of that kind?
A Yes, I was no longer used for that purpose.
BY MR. KING:
Q I wonder if we could discuss just briefly some of the underlying considerations on which your transfer to Hamm was based. Can you tell me what your civil service rank was in Berlin just prior to the time you were transferred to Hamm?
A I was ministerialrat ( ministerial council). In April, 1941, I had been promoted to ministerial council.
Q Yes, that I knew. I mean , your civil service numerial rating.
A That of ministerial council.
Q The rating which determined your salary?
A You want to know how much my salary was?
Q If you want to put it that way that will be all right.
A That's very difficult to say. I believe I received 12,000 marks. I don't remember exactly. That is apparent from the schedule of salaries.
Q Yes. I thought perhaps your membered the rating by which that schedule was determined. Now, when you went to Hamm, how much mere did you get?
A Now, I understand you. As ministerial council I received 12,000 marks as a salary. In addition, I received 1200 marks as a ministerial addition that was not subject to tax. That is, 100 marks per month. In Hamm I received 14,OOO marks and all of this was subject to tax and thus I assume, but don't know for sure, that at least I did not receive any more that in Berlin.
Q Yes, that is conceivable that your not wan't any more, but according to the salary schedules of the Central office, it was actually a promotion, was it not? You were getting some 2,000 marks more than you were getting in Berlin.
A Well, about that I have to say that a promotion from a financial point of view, is only a promotion if actually I have more money in my pocket and not if I don't have more money in my pocket. As far as the question of promotion is concerned I have to say the following. The Minister of Justice, if he wanted to get me out of the Ministry, the only thing that he could do was to make my senate president or general public prosecutor, because he had to offer me a position of equal importance. If he wanted to offer me a position that was not on the same level, then he had to institute a disciplinary proceeding against me and there was probably no cause and also no possibility to do so in my case.
Q Now, if the Minister really wanted to get rid of you in 1943 he didn't have to worry about a position of equal rank. He could merely cancelled your military exemption. You're not saying it was very difficult for Thierack to get on the telephone and say: "Cancel Joel's military exemption"? That wasn't difficult. In fact he did it later, didn't he?
A Yes.
Q Well, why didn't he do it in 1943?
A I can't tell you that. I wasn't on such good terms with Thierack that I would discuss such matters with him. He didn't tell me that.
Q But you don't seriously believe, do you, that he found it possible to find a way to get rid of you because here, available, was the very most simple way and he didn't resort to it.
A Yes. Certainly. Of course that would have been possible. AMinister could do all kinds of things.
Q Do you remember what Thierack said in his efficiency report concerning you which was drawn up on the 22nd of April, 1943, and circulated, among others, to those people: The Party Chancellery, the Chief of the Reich Chancellery, the Minister of the Interior, the Minister of Finance, and to a certain number of individuals of lesser importance?
A I'm not in a position to know that.
Q Did you ever see that?
A I never had an opportunity to see personnel files up to this very day.
Q Well, this will be know to you then. Here's what Thierack says, and it comes from your personnel files:
"During the years of his activity in the Reich Ministry of Justice he has given the best proof of himself and here, as well as in his capacity as chief of the Central Prosecution, he has shown his interest in and gifts for the profession and position of public prosecutor. His whole personality and achievements eminently qualify him for the position of attorney general at the Court of Appeals at Hamm, Westphalia. He gives the absolute guarantee that he will always, without any reservation,stand for the National Socilist State and effectively represent it."
New, Dr. Joel, may I ask you, does that sound like the recommendation of a man who is about to fire a subordinate because he doesn't like him?
DR. HAENSEL: An objection. Joel, the witness, just stated that up to this very hour he had seen the personnel files. The prosecutor is citing a long lengthy passage from these files. I, therefore, request to submit it to the witness because it is impossiblo for the witness to state his opinion - to confirm or deny- if he does not know the file at all. Therefore, it is evidence based on documents and. I request that the file be submitted to him.
THE PRESIDENT: Is the document in evidence?
MR. KING: The document is not in evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: I think you should showed it to him then.
MR. KING: We'll proceed to do that in a very few moments.
THE PRESIDENT: As to your last question, however which I assume counsel was objecting to, it calls for a conclusion of the witness which the Court can make just as well as the witness. I think it was unnecessary.
BY MR. KING:
Q Yes, I have here that efficiency report which bears the initials of the individuals to whom it was sent.
(The document is handed to the witness.)
A You want me to tell you about this?
Q No, I just want you to see it.
A Do you want me to make a comment on this?
Q No, the Court has ruled no comment will be necessary from you.
THE PRESIDENT: I ruled the Prosecution's question was improper because it called for a comment of the witness on a matter which the Court could make its own conclusions on.
MR. KING: When you have finished examining it, Dr. Joel, I would like to offer it in evidence.
We would like to have marked for identification the efficiency report of Thierack concerning the defendant Joel, dated 28 April 1943 and bearing the initials of Thierack and certain other officials of the Nazi Government.
THE WITNESS: May I say one sentence in comment?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: That is very short efficiency report - noticeably short. The first part describe me as an efficient prosecutor and nothing can be said against it. The second part states that in my responsible position I give a guarantee to represent the National Socialist state. That is almost the exact working of the German Civil Service law of 1937, by which for every Civil Service employee who assumes any position. Whatever it is required that the office where he is working confirms this or makes a statement to that effect.
THE PRESIDENT: You are offering it in evidence?
MR. KING: It will be exhibit No. 549. We are not as yet able to offer it as a document because it is not yet processed, we are merely asking it be marked for identification.
THE PRESIDENT: Let it be marked for identification.
BY MR. KING:
Q. Do you recall in 1944-- this morning you said 18 October -actually I believe the personnel record will show it was in December of 1944 when Thierack did request that your military exemption be cancelled; do you remember that?
A. I doubt if Thierack personally did that, I do not know, I received the information from a military office.
Q. Do you recall who interferred for you in Hamm in 1944 and had that recommendation set aside?
A. What do you mean by cancellation, I don't understand what you mean by "cancel".
Q. As I understand the situation, Thierack asked that your exemption be cancelled, that your exemption from military service be cancelled; now my question is do you recall who in Hamm acted to have the military exemption status kept on so that you would be available for your work in Hamm; do you recall who it was who intervened at that time?
A. I personally went to the chief of the Personnel department at Prenzlau, I believe that is where he was at the time - outside of Berlin and complained that I was not informed about the matter at all, that I was not asked to comment and did not have a hearing.
Q. You don't know the part that Gauleiter Hoffmann in Hamm played in having you continue on in Hamm?
A. About the cancellation of that exemption from military service, I informed the three Gauleiters that were included m the district of the District Court of Appeals Hamm: they were the Gauleiter for the Gaus Westphalia - North; Westphalia- South and Essen and whether among them was Gauleiter Hoffmann these Reich Defense communisioners got in touch with the ministry, I do not know.
Q Well, I have a letter here which I will show you in a moment. This is a letter, which Albert Hoffmann, the Gauleiter for Westphalia South wrote to Thierack when Thierack attempted to have your military exemption cancelled. Hoffmann says in part:
"Dr. Joel belongs to the Waffen SS and in the army he would only be employed by the SS for judicial service."
Then he goes on to say that for that reason he feels it would be unwise to have you transferred.
A Yes, this is the letter from the Gauleiter of WestpahaliaSouth, signed Albert Hoffmann, 9 January 1945. That I was not a member of the Waffen SS is apparent from my military pass, which I have among papers here in jail. If I would have been drafted I would perhaps have been assigned to the Waffen SS, that is something I could not decide myself.
If Hoffmann wanted me to remain in office, --- perhaps he liked me, I don't know. He wrote this letter to the Minister.
Q So you think the political boss of the Westphalia - South Gau, when he referred to you as a Waffen SS member, he was misinformed; do you believe that?
A Yes, I believe that, certainly, because I was not called up at all.
Q You were not called up because you were believed to be indispensable for the Reich Ministry of Justice; weren't you?
A I was declared essential for the Reich Ministry of Justice, yes.
Q And that is why you were not called up; isn't it?
A Yes, I suppose, but I am not in a position to know that.
Q Well, I will tell you what the Reich Ministry of Justice said when they wanted to exempt you and if you want to see it, then I can show you.