"Dr. Schlegelberger frequently said the same in my presence also to other judges from the incorporated Eastern territories when he had a chance of talking to them. I also remember that he instructed the President of the District Court in Danzig to keep a close watch on a Director of the District Court who, as chairman of a special court, had passed very severe sentences, and to strive for moderation" I now read the last line on that page:
"Very often it could be noticed that the burden of his position became a very heavy one to Dr. Schlegelberger. This is especially true of questions concerning criminal law, which were fundamentally far removed from his sphere because Dr. Schlegelberger was definitely a civil jurist. If Dr. Schlegelberger in an intimate circle expressed his intention of retiring, he was always asked to retain his position as his retirement would discourage the rest of the judges and would doubtlessly bring an adherent of the party to his position. That this had to be avoided in the public interest was clear to every one of us.
"In this connection one should also remember that over all these considerations hovered the constant threat from the party that criminal justice might be taken over by the SS. The constant public denunciations of a non-national socialist justice and the general and individual attacks of the party were directed to this end.
"In order to avoid this Dr. Schlegelberger also had to take measures which were in opposition to his private opinion but which were necessary in order to moderate further demands of the party.
I was informed by Gardiewski the President of the local court, who was a brother-in-law of Jeschennek, Chief of the General Staff of the Luftwaffe, that soon after the death of Minister Guertner Hitler said to Jeschennek and other officers: "but the next Minister of Justice will be no professional."
I ask that this document be received as Exhibit 70.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document No. 78 is a copy, from the Reich Legal Gazette, of the German Civil Service Law. I refer, on the second page, to Article 60, which refers to the possibility of releasing a civil servant.
Then, on page 8 of the document book, Article 171 is the provision of which the defendant Schlegelberger said that it was taken in for the protection of the independence of the judges. The paragraph roads:
"The pensioning of a judge according to article 71 cannot be based upon the factual contents of a decision which he has made in the performance of his judicial duties."
I offer this document as Exhibit 71.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 79 is an amendment to the German Civil Service law of 25 March 1939. I refer to article 2, which reveals that from that time onward a civil servant no longer could ask for his release on his own.
I offer this as Exhibit 72.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 80 contains the same provision in the third law, amending the German Civil Service Law, of 21 October 1941. I offer this document as Exhibit 73.
THE PRESIDENT: Received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: I come now to document 81, an affidavit by Dr. Miethsam. An affidavit has already been submitted from Dr. Miethsam by the prosecution.
MR. WOOLEYHAN: Your Honors, to make this objection of mine brief, I object to the admissibility of the Miethsam affidavit on the same grounds which the record will show that I objected to the Hecker affidavit.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: It has not become clear to me, from the statement made by the prosecution, what the prosecution means. Should it not be possible merely to submit an affidavit, but yet to call the witness as my own witness? The latter cannot be denied, can It? If in a trial, by the submission of an affidavit, one can avoid calling a witness in order to save time--such as has been ordered in this trial--then the possibility must exist to got an affidavit from this witness, after he had been a witness for the prosecution and now becomes my witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Miethsam was an affiant for the prosecution and was thereafter produced in court, was he not, and examined here?
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Yes, in cross-examination. However, I could not cross-examine him because I did not want to attack his credibility. I wanted to have him as my own witness later.
THE PRESIDENT: It presents the identical question which is raised in the Hecker case?
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Yes.
Therefore, I will skip this affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Lot us give it a number and have it identified.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Yes; the number will be 74. I ask that the number 74 be reserved for this document.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit will be marked for identification No. 74, and the ruling will be reserved together with the ruling on the Hecker affidavit.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: By the way, may we inquire: Hecker is in jail in Nurnberg and is available, is he not?
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Hooker is in the witness house; he is free, but he is in the witness house and is available. He is in Nurnberg.
THE PRESIDENT: He is in Nurnberg.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Is Miethsam available?
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Miethsam does not live in Nurnberg, but there should not be too groat difficulty in bringing him here.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 82 is an affidavit of Hermann Schoetensack. I road the second paragraph:
"From 1937 until the collapse, I was expert (Referent) in Section I (personnel Division) of the Reich Ministry of Justice as Oberlandesgerichtsrat, Ministerialrat, and Reichsgerichtsrat, and reported once or twice every week to Under-Secretary Dr. Schlegelberger."
I skip several sentence and continue with the next paragraph:
"In the course of time, the NSDAP, under the leadership of the STUERMER, continued making new demands against the Jews. During my time indignation was especially directed against notaries married to Jewesses, against Jews as lawyers, and that Jewish lawyers defended Aryans and aryan lawyers defended Jews. Undersecretary Dr. SCHLEGELBERGER repeatedly used his influence against these movements. Under his direction I led the fight against the defamation of the lawyers by the STUERMER and the Schwarze Corps.
When HITLER, in my opinion under pressure from the party, the jurists' association, the STUERMER, and the Schwarze Corps, ordered the elimination of the Jews from the legal profession, certain particularly respected Jewish lawyers were appointed consultants at the instigation of Dr. SCHLEGELBERGER, in order that the interests of the JEwish population did not suffer. He extended his special protection to these consultants.
"In addition, Dr. SCHLEGELBERGER generally and actively used his influence to assist persons wrongfully persecuted for political or racial reasons. In such instances, I repeatedly acted on his behalf and drafted many letters, for instance, to HIMMLER, HESS, and BORMANN. In this connection, I would like to mention the case of the attorney LASSENAU of Innsbruck whose liberation from a concentration camp I myself secured after lengthy negotiations with the party chancellery."
I offer this document as Exhibit 75.
THE PRESIDENT: It will be received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 83 is an affidavit by Dr. Josef Hornef. The affidavit and the annexes are very extensive, and therefore I should like to summarize them.
MR. WOOLEYHAN: May it please the Court, before Dr. Kubuschok goes any further with this so-called affidavit, I wish to invite the Court's attention to the fact that on page 19 of the English document book the certifying officer is a court clerk of a local court who, within the provisions of Rule 21, is not a competent certifying officer for a statement in lieu of oath. I therefore object to this statement.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: I believe, when that rule was made, that all the various categories of officials were not taken into account.
If the rule provides that even a Burgomeister is permitted to authorize these documents, then certainly a person should all the more be permitted to do so who, by his profession, is the authorizing official of a court.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, this rule was adopted by all of the Tribunals. It is clear on its face, and it is not timely now to simply say that it would be bettor if we had a different rule.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: I skip that document No. 83 and come to document No. 84.
THE PRESIDENT: No will also lot this be identified by the number 76 for identification.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Yes.
I come now to document 84, a statement in lieu of oath by Dr. Curt Richter. I will read the third paragraph on page 1:
"I am of non-Aryan descent; that is, one of my grandparents (Cornelie Richter, nee Meyerbeer) belonged certainly -- another one, (Banker Benoit Oppenheim) -- very probably to the Jewish race. Then National Socialism came to power I remained in office since those grandparents did not profess the Jewish religion, and in the beginning the National Socialists were mainly concerned with this, whereas later, especially after the proclamation of the Nuernberg laws solely the race was regarded as important."
I skip several paragraphs and continue to read on the next page, about the middle of the next page:
"My uncle, Reinhold RICHTER, the recently deceased Ministerialdirektor in the Reich Ministry of Justice, procured for me an interview with Under- Secretary of State Dr. SCHLEGELBERGER, whom I had not mot personally.
I gathered from his attitude during the interview that ho had been informed about the state of affairs, probably through my uncle, and I therefore only briefly stated my wish to be transferred, without, on my part, enlarging upon the special dilemma I found myself in.
Dr. SCHLEGELBERGER immediately promised me his support in spite of the groat difficulties involved in any transfer to Berlin, which I knew well; ho declared that he would do anything within his power and that I should contact as soon as possible the official expert, Ministerialrat Dr. GRUSSENDORF in the Reich Ministry of Justice, whom he would inform. I add that my uncle, Ministerialdirektor Reinhold RICHTER, was, according to the then valid Nuernberg laws, a Jewish half-breed 1st degree, a fact which must have been known to Dr. SCHLEGELBERGER as Under Secretary of State in the same Ministry. He must therefore have known without further explanations, that when he helped me, the nephew, he was helping a non-aryan whose racial descent had been covered thus far effectively, as the interview showed. I am convinced that Dr. SCHLEGELBERGER, when he as an Under Secretary of State helped to cover up the non-Aryan descent of an official in order to protect him from the harshness of the then valid laws, exposed himself to a considerable personal danger, all the more since, as far as I can remember, the decisive position of power in the Reich Ministry of Justice was then held by Dr. FREISLER who was radically inclined."
I offer this document as Exhibit 77.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: The next document, No. 85, is an affidavit, statement in lieu of oath, by Eduard Dietel. I read the third paragraph. "The position of District Court President; Wurzburg was offered to me by the Reich Ministry of Justice in the year 1936. The Gauleiter in Mainfranken, Dr. Hellmuth, did not approve of me, because I was politically unreliable. Despite the fact that I was twice rejected by the Party and the fact that I was not a member of the Party I was promoted to Senate President in Bamberg by the Reich Ministry of Justice on 16 September 1936."
The further contents of the affidavit refer to various instances of Schlegelberger's taking part in protection of officials who were not members of the Party. Furthermore, toward the end the affidavit refers to the approval of the attitude of the Ministry of Justice in the case of the aryanizations in Nurmberg. The acquisition of property which had belonged to Jews by the deputy Gauleiter Holz. I offer this document as Exhibit 78.
THE PRESIDENT: It is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 86, Publication of the Text of the Judicature Act and the code of Criminal Procedure. I refer to Article 15 on the second page. It concerns Exceptional Tribunals, that is Ausmahmegerichte, not Special Courts. I offer this as Exhibit 79.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 87, law concerning the People's Court. I offer as Exhibit 80.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 88, decree concerning the competence of the criminal courts, and other regulations with regard to criminal procedure of 21 February 1940. I refer to the provisions concerning special courts which are to be found on page 47 of the Document book. Article 10 and 11 concerning the composition of the Special Courts.
On the following page, page 48 of the Document Book, article 13, needs to be mentioned. There the laws arc listed for which the special courts were competent. I refer to figure 4, the so-called war economy decree, a law on the basis of which a large number of cases were tried during the war. All these cases came under the competency of the Special Courts. I refer also to page 50 of the Document Book, article 17. That provision forms the basis of procedure before the Special Courts. I offer this document as Exhibit 81.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Because of dealing with a general subject I offer Document 89. That document contains the law convening protective custody, the law of 4 December 1916. I am submitting this to show the historic development in particular so that the court can see that for cases of protective custody regular procedure following thereafter was ordered. I offer Document 89 as Exhibit 82.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 90, decree by the Reichspresident for the protection of the nation and the state, which was the basis for the decree concerning protective custody. I offer this document as Exhibit 83.
THE PRESIDENT: Received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 91, a collection of ordinances published by the RSHA, Reich Security Main Office. It concerns the provisions for protective custody. I offer this document as Exhibit 84.
THE PRESIDENT: Received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: The next document is document No. 92, an excerpt from the CI Handbook 113, subdivision. As page 72 of the document book will show the passage quoted deals with the SD, the evaluation of the SD and its tasks. I offer this document as Exhibit 85.
THE PRESIDENT: It is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: The next document, number 93, again is an affidavit by Robert Kecker to which I am sure the objection of the Prosecution will apply. I ask to reserve the exhibit number 86 for this document.
MR. WOOLEYHAN: That is true, your Honor, except that I believe that is Dr. Kubuschok's Document 94. At least it is in my bock.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: 93; 94 is another document. In the English table of contents there is a mistake. In the table of contents of the English document book the affidavit Hecker is 93 and the copy from the Court of Appeals files from the Darmstadt Court of Appeals concerning Amtsgerichtsrat Hornef, Document 94. It appears in the English book as 93. Document No. 93 is affidavit Hecker for which I ask that the number 86 be reserved.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit will be marked for identification 86. Ruling will be reserved along with the other Hecker affidavit.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: The next document, No. 94 again concerns the case of Amtsgerichtsrat Hornef, who had submitted the affidavit, signed the affidavit against which the Prosecution has objected. I believe that this ease is somewhat different. I hope that the prosecution will have no objection against this document. It is a certified copy of a letter from the Reichstatthalter, the Reich Governor in Hessen, a certifying official of the local court has witnessed that it is identical with the original. It is not really an affidavit but an identification of a document or the copy of a document. From the document itself we can see that Hornef very actively supported the interests of the church, and among other things, in February 1941 he rented a room in order to make it possible for Poles to have Catholic church services. That, of course, exposed him to serious attacks on the part of the Party. The letter shows in what harsh manner the Gauleiter Sprenger attacked Dr. Hornef. From the affidavit which I shall submit later in corrected form, we will see how Schlegelberger intervened for him in spite of this.
If there is no objection, I ask that this document be accepted as Exhibit 87.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Now I come to Document Book 2. The next document I am not offering, the next document in this same document book.
Document Book 2, on page one of that document book as document No. 30 we find a copy of the title page of Law Comparing Manual for the Civil and Commercial Law at Rome and Abroad published by Schlegelberger. I refer to the names of the people who collaborated with Schlegelberger in publishing this book. They are the most famous names in German legal literature.
On page 2 of this document the preface shows the aims of that opus. On page 4 we find the names of foreign contributors. On page 4 to 7 is this list of names. Page 8 has a table of contents of the first volume. I ask that this document be accepted as Exhibit 88.
JUDGE BRAND: The Exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 31 is an affidavit of the defendant Schlegelberger. To assure that his examination on the witness stand should not be burdonel with a list of the titles of the books he has written I submitted the list in this volume. We can see in this list the best known legal works that he has written, Many small writings or phamplets, have been omitted. Of special importance, so that one could consider the standard works of literature, are the titles listed on the first page. Voluntary Jurisdiction", text book commentary in two volumes, and the Law of Stocks in collaboration with the Special Ministry of Justice. Also the Commercial Code on page 10, a large commentary of standard books for German jurist. I submit this document as Exhibit 89.
JUDGE BRAND: We hear no objection, and the Exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 32 is art affidavit by Dr. Philip Moehring. The Defendant Schlegelberger worked together with Moehring in the field of legal literature. I read the last paragraph on the first page:
"Dr. Schlegelberger had, therefore, to assume that I also had a negative attitude towards the regime. However, he could not know whether I would not make any use of his utterances which could prove detrimental to him. My impression was that Dr. Schlegelberger wanted to use his position in order to direct matters, which were deteriorating more and more in favor of a legitimate administration of justice. We jurists always had the impression that Dr. Schlegelberger tried to keep the judicial system as much as possible free from the illegal demands of the Nazis. I know that in one case, where I myself was involved, he also opposed succeed of some enroachments which had been planned against the judicial Then he describes a case where Schlegelberger tried to support a person counteracting Goebbels.
The witness summarizes the text in the next paragraph:
"I am citing this case in order to illustrate that, according to my personal experience, Dy. Schlegelberger successfully opposed any encroachments on the administration of justice."
I offer this affidavit as Exhibit 90.
JUDGE BLAND: The Exhibit is received.
Dr. KUBUSCHOK: The next document is an affidavit by Hans Luther, former Reich Chancellor during the Weimar Republic and later Ambassador in Washington. I road from page 2, the last sentence of the first paragraph :
"Never did I notice any deviation from the time of most lucid objectivity, coupled with a fine feeling for individual human needs, which so often became the object of discussions concerned with further measures for the maintenance'of stabilization."
Then he describes his Later meetings with Schlegelberger. I read beginning with the eighth line from the bottom of that page:
"On such meetings I never noticed anything that would have changed my above-stated opinion, of Dr. Schlegelberger's personality; I recall distinctly from our conversation that ho condemned, without reservation, the numerous excesses - and worse acts - of National Socialism. In tho latter sense I like to mention the following: A very close friend of mine from my youth, Dr. Walter Froehlich (at that time Reichsgerichtsrat in Leipzig, now missing and most likely dead) whom I met repeatedly until the end of 1943, maintained a quite intimate contact, as it seemed to me, with Dr. Schlegelberger. Dr. Froehlich was a strong opponent of everything National Socialist. He expressed great respect for Dr. Schlegelberger, whenever his name was mentioned in our conversation."
I offer this document as Exhibit 91.
JUDGE BRAND: The Exhibit is received.
Dr. KUBUSCHOK: Document 34 is a letter from the Chief of tho Chancellery, to Schlegelberger, of the 30th of January 1938, by which ho was accepted as a Party member. I read the first sentence:
"On the occasion of the fifth anniversary of the national socialistic rise to power, the Fuehrer has ordered that you will be admitted into the NSDAP."
I submit that Document as Exhibit 92.
JUDGE BRAND: The Exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 35 is an affidavit by attorney Dr. Rudolf Dix. I read the second paragraph:
"I have known the former under secretary Dr. Schlegelberger since the time when I was president of the German Amtswalterverein that is, since 1932. But also after in spring 1933 I resigned from my office as president of the German Amtswalterverein because of my opposition to national socialism. I remained in permanent contact with Schlegelberger sup ported my efforts on behalf of the Jewish lawyers at that time. The then Reich Minister of Justice, Dr. Guertner was ill and off duty during the period when the first law against Jewish lawyers was formulated. Schlegelberger acted as his substitute. At any rate Schlegelberger lent an ear to my repeated, at that time perhaps daily, representations in the interest of the Jewish colleagues. I was able to speak quite frankly to him and to point out to him the moral and political impossibility of the purpose of the Nazi regime at that time. Of course, I was not present at the corresponding discussions of the cabinet. Concluding from his attitude towards me I have no doubt, however, that Schlegelberger used his influence according to the promises he made to me. Also later on, when I tried to interest him for people prosecuted for political reasons, or were represented or defended by me, Schlegelberger always readily listened to me."
Then he mentions the case of the Bishop of Meissen, and the case of Herr Lehfeldt, a non-Aryan in the sense of the Nurnberg Law. About the tenth line from the bottom of that page I read:
"I can only say that he always gave his attention to me, a lawyer who constantly supported politically persecuted people and who was known as such in the Ministry of Justice; and, in my opinion, he did everything within his possibilities for the men who were represented by me. Of course, the stress must be put on the words, "within his possibilities", for the position of the Ministry of Justice became more and more difficult and weak, as far as it tried to support the existing current drive for right and humanity. To me, at any rate, Schlegelberger never gave the cold shoulder. For fairness' sake I have to acknowledge this and like to do it herewith. When Thierack became minister I very seldom went to the Ministry since, under his leadership, one could not expect any longer that anything would be done in favor of justice against the people in power. That's what constituted the great contrast to the era Guertner/Schlegelberger. In this respect we attorneys are able to give a competent judgment."
I offer this document as Exhibit 93.
JUDGE BRAND: The Exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 36 is a supplement to that affidavit by the same affiant, Dr. Rudolf Dix.
MR. WOOLEYHAN: May it please your Honors, it states on the face of this document which Dr. Kubuschok has just introduced, that it is intended as a supplement to a former affidavit. That former affidavit is not identified as of by date nor by other means. Therefore, we object to this document on the grounds that it is intended as a statement in lieu of oath. It is not in the form required by Rule 21.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: I shall remove the technical deficiencies of Document 36 and submit it again later. I ask that the Exhibit No. 94 be reserved for this document.
JUDGE BRAND: The document will be marked for identification No. 94.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: The next document, No. 37, is an affidavit by Dr. Friedrich Ernst. Dr. Ernst was Reich Commissioner in charge of enemy property. He describes his position and his opinion of the abdication of legal principles in his tasks. I read from page 31, about the second third:
"A. As far as he was able Dr. Schlegelberger helped me to follow my program concerning the trustee administration of enemy property. Very soon after I had started with my activities the expected conflicts with the Main Security Office, the Reich Ministry of Economics and other official and Party agencies started. In these conflicts Dr. Schlegelberger repeatedly gave me considerable support.
"Q. Did you, in this connection, got any impression of Dr. Schlegelberger's general political tendencies?
"A. I noticed from occasional remarks of Dr. Schlegelberger that he worked to the best of his ability against the tendencies of the Party and of other official agencies, in order to maintain, as much as possible, the independence of the judicial administration and especially of judicial pronouncements. In this connection he seems to have gotten into very sharp conflicts with Under Secretary Freisler and with Himmler's offices."
I offer this document as Exhibit No. 95.
JUDGE BRAND: The Exhibit is received.
The time has arrived for our adjournment until tomorrow morning at nine-thirty. He will now adjourn.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 3 July 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America; against Josef Alstoetter, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 3 July 1947, 0930 - 1630. The Honorable James U. Brand, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. III.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you will ascertain if the defendants are all present.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all the defendants are present in the courtroom with the exception of Engert, who is absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Engert is excused. The notation will be made.
MR. LA FOLLETTE: If Your Honors please, before the witness is sworn, there is just one matter I want to call to the attention of the Tribunal and Dr. Kuboschok. In Schlegelberger Document No. 67, Exhibit 80, the law which was copied reads "Reichsanwaelte", and it was copies "Rechtsanwaelte." As a consequence, the translation has been made as "Attorneys-at-law," while it should read "Reich Prosecutors." This occurs at Article 7, Page 42 of Schlegelberger Document Book IV and Section 5, Sub-section 3, on Page 43 of Schlegelberger Document Book IV. Since this is not really a matter of translation but arose out of a typographical error in copying, I am sure that Dr. Kuboschok will agree that the correction should be made.
THE PRESIDENT: That is the Schelgelberger Document 80?
MR. LA FOLLETTE: Document 87, Exhibit 80, yes, and I have given the pages on which this occurs.
DR. HANS GRAMM; a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE BLAIR: Hold up your right hand and repeat after me the following oath:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated tho oath.)
JUDGE BLAIR: You. may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. KUBOSCHOK:
Q Please give us your full name -- first name and last name -your address and your present position.
A Dr. Nans Gramm, 41 years old, Oberlandesgerichtsrat in Hamburg.
Q When did you come into the Reich Ministry of Justice?
A On the 2 January 1935.
Q What was your position in the Reich Ministry of Justice?
A Until February 1936, that was about one year, I was in Department III of the Ministry. Then as a Personnel Referent, I came to Under-Secretary Dr. Schlegelberger. I was with him until May 1938 as Second Personnel Referent. Then after the death of Ministorialrat Wilke, I was First Personnel Referent. Apart from that, I had to deal with naval law. I remained in that position until Dr. Schlegelberger left office in August 1942, and when Dr. Rothenberger came to the Ministry I remained at first in order to help my successor. In the beginning of 1943, I was put at the disposal of tho Wehrmacht -- the Armed Forces -and at tho end of February 1943, I became a soldier. I left the Ministry of Justice at that time.
Q You Till give tho court a short description of your tasks as Personnel Referent.
A The tasks of the Personnel Referent can be described in three groups: In the first category are the usual ante-room things, matters among which I would count take care of the schedules, receiving visitors; and the second groups comprises the following: The Main Office of the Ministry of Justice every day put the mail received as far as it concerned the Under-Secretary into the Under-Secretary's office. I had to go through that mail, and letters that I considered to be important I took out and put them before Dr. Schlegelberger on the occasion of my daily reports every evening to be signed.
The third group of my activities comprised tho following: the various departments sent tho files that they dealt with daily to the office of tho Under-Secretary. It was a question of tho dispositions that tho departments had suggested and that the Under-Secretary had to sign, expressing Ms approval, or which ho had countersigned to submit to tho Minister for tho final signature.
Q You mentioned visitors whom Dr. Schlegelberger received. Could you tell the court a little more about the group of people who used to visit him?
AApart from people who came with questions and would usually come into a ministry with various questions -- people who wanted to see the Under-Secretary with their personal matters -- there were also good friends and old acquaintances who came to see Dr. Schlegelberger with whom for years ho had had friendly and intimate contacts.
Q Were there well-known Party people among these visitors?
A No. Among these visitors there were no well-known Party people. I know that Dr. Schlegelberger told me once, referring to Goebbels, that he did not want to have anything to do with such people. Neither did ho over accept any invitations from Dr. Goebbels or other prominent Party people.
Q Could you remember any visitors whom you think particularly significant?
A Today, of course, it is difficult from the large number of visitors who passed through that ante--room during the years when I worked with Dr. Schlegelberger to mention any names, but I believe that it may be of interest to these proceedings if I Mention two names. A frequent visitor was the Lord Mayor Dr. Goerdeler. Dr. Goerdeler was later one of the main conspirators in connection with the attempted assassination of Hitler in 1944. No frankly and openly expressed his political opinion to me and also to Dr. Schlegelberger.