Transcript for NMT 3: Justice Case

Do you recall that?

A. Yes, I believe it was in the beginning of April when the courts were evacuated from Stuttgart. One morning I went through the courtyard of the prison. That courtyard was flanked on one side by the courthouse which was quite burnt out. In the rubble, that is to say, in the rubble of a room that was completely burnt out on tho ground floor, there were about eight or ten prisoners in a circle around a large fire. Each one of them had an arm full of files, and the prisoners threw one after the other of these files into the flames. At that time they were guarded by one or two wardens.

MR. LAFOLLETTE: That is all.

THE PRESIDENT: In view of the character of this redirect examination, it not being strictly redirect examination, an opportunity will bo given to defense counsel to further cross-examine if they so desire.

MR. LAFOLLETTE: Solely on the questions asked on re-direct?

THE PRESIDENT: That is correct.

Apparently no one desires to do so. That is the end of this witness' examination, as I take it; he may therefore be excused.

(Witness excused)

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Will the Tribunal and defense counsel please turn to Document Book IV-A?

For the Tribunal's information, I have amended copies of the first document in Book IV-A, which supplies the first two pages which were missing, I think, in your books.

THE PRESIDENT: I didn't hear you distinctly.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: In the English Document Book IV-A, the first document, 1549-PS, was faulty in that two pages were omitted. I am now supplying the amended versions. The German books are in order.

The first document in Book IV-A is 1549-PS. This document begins with an initial draft by the SS, dated 20 December 1940, which proposes general amnesty for racial Germans in the annexed Eastern countries, including Poland and Danzig. It is addressed to Hitler's Deputy, and requests a law quashing certain legally pronounced sentences. Amnesty is here proposed even for murder if the racial German culprit "was carried away" in committing the act by his excessive zeal for the fight for German folkdom or Party ideas.

This document is completed by a letter from the defendant Schlegelberger for the Ministry of Justice to Hitler's Deputy. Schlegelberger therein advises that further general amnesties for racial Germans in Poland are not necessary since Hitler, up until 4 October 1939, had already pardoned them all.

As to crimes against Polish property, Schlegelberger states that he has made sure that no prosecution will occure unless especially important reasons exist.

The prosecution offers as Exhibit No. 254, document 1549-PS.

THE PRESIDENT: It will be received in evidence.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On page 7 of the English document book, and page 11 of the German , is found NG-640. This document is a one-page memorandum, bearing the handwritten signature of the defendant Joel, stating his decision to suspend sentences of "two deserving Party members" for murdering two Polish Priests for no reason other than their hatred for the clergy, the sentences of these two Party members to remain suspended as long as they served in an SS unit.

The prosecution offers as Exhibit No. 255, document NG-640.

JUDGE BRAND: May I ask you, there appears no signature in the English copy. Would you tell us what appears on the original, if anything?

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Your Honor, on the original, appears the handwritten signature of the defendant Joel, and the date, which appears to be the 12th of September.

JUDGE BRAND: And the year?

MR. WOOLEYHAN: The year is not given. In handwriting, under the signature, are the Arabic figures "12/9". However, in the text of the document appears the date 11 June 1940. He presume it is the same year.

THE PRESIDENT: It will be admitted in evidence.

MR. WOOLEYHAND: On page 8 of the English document book is found document NG-366. This document comprises the reports of two conferences held on 23 and 24 January 1939. Both reports are signed by the defendant Klomm. At these conferences the so-called security detention of prisoners by the State police, after service of sentence, is discussed and approved.

Tho prosecution offers, as Exhibit No. 256, document NG-566.

THE PRESIDENT: The Exhibit will be admitted in evidence.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: May the Court please, this document is still being examined by defense counsel.

On page 13 of the English Document book and Page 17 of the German book is found NG-340. This Document is an exchange of correspondonce dated July and August 1939 between the Reich Ministry of Justice, the Reich Chancellery and the Nazi Party Chancellery in a Hitler order that all prison inmates in so-called security detention be immediately put at the disposal of the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler for important work in concentration camps. The Prosecution offers as Exhibit 257, Document NG-340.

THE PRESIDENT: To which defendant, if any, does this have particular application?

MR WOOLEYHAN: It refers, particularly, to the policy-making level of the Ministry of Justice as the Prosecution contends is up to a state secretary level.

THE PRESIDENT: The document will be admitted in evidence.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On Page 17 of the English Book and Page 21 of the German Book is found NG-269, This document purports to be a letter or at least it begins with a letter dated 26 July 1940. It is personally signed by the Defendant Engert and two other People's Court judges. It was submitted to the President of the People's Court by an endorsement like wise personally signed by Engert wherein it is recommended that certain cases not be tried by the People's Court, but that instead the defedants be sent to concentrations camps. Thierack, then President of the People's Court approved this recommendation in the following letter to the Ministry of Justice dated 14 August 1940 in which among other things he stated the following. I road now briefly from Page 18 of the English Book, Page 23 of the German book.

" However right it is to exterminate harshly and uproot all the seeds of insurrection, as for example we see them in Bohemia and Moravia, it is wrong for every follower, even the smallest, to be given the honor, of apprearing for trial and being judged for high treason before a People's Court or, failing that, before an Appellate Court."

Skipping to the next paragraph, " I have therefore no objection what so ever, if all the small hangers-on who are somehow connected with the high treason plans which have been woven and plotted by others, are brought to their senses by being transferred to a concentration camp for some time."

The prosecution offers as Exhibit Number 258, Document NG-369 THE PRESIDENT:

The document will be admitted in evidence MR. WOOLEYHAN: On page 20 of the English book, page 25 of the German Book, is found NG-685. This appears to be a situation report by the chief Public Prosecutor at Hamm, Westphalia, dated 29 January 1941, addressed to Undersecretary Schlegerberger informing Labor Office, and the SS, his public prosecutors were turning over, without trial, to the Gestapo for concentration camps, all Poles who brached labor contracts.

There was a purported local difference of opinion as to whether Czechs should be similarly treated.

The Prosecution offers as Exhibit Number 259, Document NG-685.

On Page 31 of the English Book, which is Page 37 of the German, is found NG-540. This document is a one-page letter wherein Meissner, Chief of the Reich Presidential Chancellery informs the Defendant Schlegelberger on 22 April 1941 that Schlegelberger may, if he desires, postpone transfer of prison inmates to the Gestapo for short periods until Hitler can be notified of the reasons for such transfers.

The Prosecution offers as Exhibit Number 260, Document Number 540.

THE PRESIDENT: The document may be admitted in evidence.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On the text page of the Document Books is found NG-581. This comprises two situation reports by the Attorney General of the Supreme Court of Appeals in Berlin dated January and March 1942, wherein, the Attorney General complained to the Defendant Schlegelberger that defendants sentenced to minor prison terms were being handed over by Justice authorities to the Gestapo, and were later shot under the so-called guise of having offered resistance. The Prosecution offers as Exhibit Number 261, Document NG-581.

THE PRESIDENT: The document may be received in evidence.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On Page 37 of the English Book which is Page 47 in the German Book, is found 638-PS. This appears to be some notes signed by the defendant Joel The notes concern a speech of Georing on 24 September 1942 wherein Joel outlines Goering's plan about having the Justice Ministry select to convicts for release in Partisan territories to murder, burn and ravish. A copy is stated to have been sent to the Defendant Rothenberger for his information. The Prosecution offers s Exhibit 262, Document 638.

THE PRESIDENT: The document will be received, in evidence.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On page 38 of the English Book, which is page 46 of the German Book, is found 662 PS. This appears to be a series of notes on a conference hold on 9 October 1942. It is signed by Dr. Crohnelt outlines a entirely now program whereby so-called asocial prison inmates, namely, Poles, Jews, Russians,Ukrainians, Czechs and Frenchmen in certain catagories are to be handed even by the Ministry of Justive to the SS. As to the asocials, aprogram is specifically delegated to the Defendant Engert in Division 15 of the Ministry of Justice. He is charged with tho decision in all individual cases.

The prosecution offers as Exhibit 263, Document 662-)S.

THE PRESIDENT: The document will be received in evidence.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On Page 42 of the English book, which is Page 54 of the German, is found 648-PS. This is a Ministry of Justice order, dated 22 October 1942, addressed to All District Attorney Generals, which puts into effect the program of transferring asocial prison inmates to the SS and specifies the raises of convicts which are the same as those proposed and enumerated in the preceding document 662-PS. The division of official duties regarding this program is laid down between Division 5 and Division 15 of the Reich Ministry of Justice.

The prosecution offers as Exhibit 264, Document 648-PS.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On Page 46 of the English book, which is Page 60 of the German, is found L-316. This is a secret express letter, dated 5 November 1942, from the SS Main Office addressed to All SS and SD Branches, explaining the previously described transfer program with respect to asocial prison inmates, and it announces the nature of the working agreement between Himmler and Thierack on this point.

JUDGE BRAND: Would you tell me again the "L" number of the document?

MR. WOOLEYHAN:L-316. The Prosecution offers as Exhibit 265, Document L-316.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On Page 48 of the English book -- and I am sorry but I don't have the German page -- is found NG-598. This is a letter dated 8 March 1943, signed and sent by the defendant Barnickel of the Chief Reich Prosecution Office at the People's Court. The defendant Barnickel writes to the commander of a prison camp and requests the latter's compliance with the program of transferring convicts to the Gestapo in specified cases.

JUDGE BRAND: I find in my book two copies apparently of this same document.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Two duplicate pages?

JUDGE BRAND: Two complete copies. Is one of them the correction of the other or is that just an inadvertence?

MR. WOOLEYHAN: I believe that is an inadvertence. That page was missing from the German Document Book. I just supplied the extra page.

The prosecution offers as Exhibit 266, Document NG-598.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On Page 50 of the English book, which is 76 in the German, is found NG-614. This document is in four parts. The first is a People's Court verdict sentencing a Pole, Johann Kubiak, and three other Poles to six years imprisonment; each for attempted high treason. The second part is a letter signed and sent by the defendant Barnickel of the Reich Prosecution Office at the People's Court to a certain prison director ordering that this Kubiak and the other three Poles sentenced with him are to serve in an "aggravated prison camp." The third part is a subsequent notice to the Office of defendant Barnickle, namely the Reich Prosecution Office at the People's Court, that this Pole Kubiak accordingly had been transferred to the Auschwitz Concentration Camp. The last part is a notice to the Reich Prosecution Office at the People's Court, dated one week after the preceding part, stating that this Kubiak had meanwhile died in the Auschwitz Concentration Camp.

The prosecution offers as Exhibit 267, Document KG-614.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On Page 56 in the English book, which is 81 of the German, is found 701-PS. This sets forth instructions by the Reich Ministry of Justice to the Public Prosecutors and to the Justice Ministry Commissioners in Emsland directing that Jews and Poles who have been released after service of their sentence in Reich prisons are to be transferred to the concentration camp at Auschwitz or Lublin for the rest of their lives regardless of the offense.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On Page 38 in the English book, which is 82 of the German, is found a statute, which is the same as that found on Page 54 of Document Book II. It is put here in repetition to point again to the fact that by this statute all Jews were deprived of all judicial process in criminal cases and were turned over without trial to the police, and after their death their property was confiscated by the Reich.

Does the Tribunal desire a separate exhibit? I have; otherwise it's found in Document Book II on Page 54.

THE PRESIDENT: A reference to that book and page would seem to be sufficient. What page did you say it would be?

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Page 54 of Book II.

THE PRESIDENT: You have set out a complete copy of the statute and the exhibit?

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Yes, we have, Your Honor.

On Page 60 of the English book, which is 84 in the German, is found 2221-PS. This is an urgen Gestapo teletype message concerning the details of replacing transferred Poles in concentration camps to maintain essential war labor projects. Cooperation with the Ministry of Justice is specifically mentioned.

THE PRESIDENT: That number did you assign to that?

MR. WOOLEYHAN: 269, Your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: You gave no separate number to that statute apparently?

MR. WOOLEYHAN: No, I believe it's our understanding at your suggestion that we make no extra exhibit on that statute.

THE PRESIDENT: I wonder how that will affect the record room?

MR. WOOLEYHAN: There will be no confusion, Your Honor.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Now, turning the Book IV-C, on page two of the English book, which is page 3 of the German, is found NG--372. This is an exchange of correspondence between August and October, 1944, between a lawyer in Minden, Westphaliea and a lawyer in Berlin, repeating requests by the former as to the whereabouts of a client who had served his prison sentence of one year, but had not been released. These requests were finally answered by the Berlin lawyer, who stated that the client was transferred after completion of his sentence to the State Felice under a secret order. The Prosecution offers as Exhibit No. 270 the Document NG-372.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Turning now to Book IV-B.

JUDGE BRAND: How many pages are there to Exhibit 270 in the English text -- NG -372.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Two, your Honor. They are numbered pages two and three in my book.

JUDGE BRAND: I think it is my fault, but I don't find on page two the material to which you referred, and I want to identify it if I can.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On your page two is there a letterhead at the upper left hand?

JUDGE BRAND: It simply states that the defendant had been sentenced to one year, -

MR. WOOLEYHAN: But on the next page you will see the first letter of the series, and I incorporated them all in my description of the document.

JUDGE BRAND: On page three there is another letter?

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Yes; there is another letter from Mr. Lohmann, lawyer, on page three.

JUDGE BRAND: Page three is the letter which says he was sentenced to one year.

MR WOOLEYHAN: Sentenced to one year, that is correct; then, on page 2 is another letter from Lohmann answered by Mr. Boden at the bottom.

JUDGE BRAND: I tried to put those in coherent order in my description.

Turning now to Book IV-B.

Book IV-B comprises only one document, NG--557. May I inquire if that has been distributed to the Defense? The original being here, they have no objections. This document is a series of excerpts from a bulky, official prison leger, taken from Ebrach Prison. The original contains entries on a total of 447 prisoners; of these, approximately 77 were transferred during 1942 to 1943 to the concentration camp at Mauthausen, Auschwitz and Flossenburg. Entries showing the case history of those inmates so transferred were the ones excerpted for this document. The Prosecution offers as Exhibit 271 the Document NG-557. That concludes Document Books IV-A and IV-B

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat which books are completed?

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Books IV-A and IV-B.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Turning to Book IV-C, on page 8 of the English Book, which is page 12 of the German, is found NG-553. This is sworn affidavit by the warden of Ebrach Prison, from which the prison ledger, just offered, was taken. This warden, one Ludwig Schirmer, describes the deliberate starving of inmates, very poor medical attention, despite frequent disease outbreaks, over-crowding to nearly three times the prison's normal capacity caused, by numerous inmates from France and Belgium. He finally describes the transfer of those inmates, arbitrarily designated as asocial to concentration camps pursuant to secret decree of the Reich Ministry of Justice. The Prosecution offers as Exhibit 272 the Document NG-553.

THE PRESIDENT: The Document will be received in evidence.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On the first page of the document book is found NO-556. This is a printed form used customarily by Ebrach Prison showing an actual case of the bookkeeping involved in transfering prisoner inmates. In this case one Michael Schlamminger was transferred to Mauthausen concentration camp. It is dated 23 June, 1943, and was received from the prison by the Public Prosecutor at the District Court in Number. The Prosecution offers as Exhibit 273 the Document NG-556.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On page 4 of the English book -- I am sorry I haven't got the German page -- is found NG-566. This is a sworn affidavit by a Roman Catholic Chaplain at Amber Prison, from 1931 to 1945, one Benedict Wein. This prison chaplain describes the prison inmates at labor Prison as political prisoners, not only from Germany, but also from Austria, and a large proportion of Poles. Concerning the Poles he describes their picking over garbage for edible refuse, at whole wards of sick Poles, and the death of very many Poles from tuberculosis and starvation.

This was in the Reich Prison at Amberg. He states that in connection with designating certain prison inmates as asocial, that the defendant Engert personally visited the prison and looked over the files. Reading now from page 4a of the document book, "The people they picked out were all put on a list. The list was always marked: "To be removed." This was, I believe, mainly decided by Engert. The whole thing emanated from the Reich Security Office. Engert had formerly been a judge at Amberg and a fanatical Nazi. He was promoted for his National-Socialist activities and transferred to Berlin. We did not know on what principles Engert and his collaborator based their decisions. ....The asocial elements picked out were sent in batches to the Mauthausen concentration camp. There were always twenty to thirty people in one batch."

"As far as I have heard, Engert was always the driving force behind these removals. His name was always mentioned. Everything was kept quite dark. I think the batches were fetched from our prison. The whole of the first batch is said to have perished; The second batch were not all executed. Some came back."

"At first the whole business was hardly noticeable? they acted with great caution. They deceived us all. Only gradually did they show their claws."

Prosecution offers as Exhibit 274, Document NG-566.

THE PRESIDENT: Document will be received in evidence.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On page 5 of the English book, which is page 9 in the German, is found NG 506. This is a sworn affidavit of a guard at Amberg penitentiary from 1921 to 1945, one Joseph Prey. He affirms that the inmates at Amberg penitentiary were mainly sent from the special courts of Regensburg, Munich, Weiden, and Nurnberg. Of these there were 800 to 900 Poles, and also a number of Frenchmen, Dutchmen and Belgians transported from those western countries to Germany under the Nacht and Nebel decree. The affiant confirms the personal visit of the defendant Engert to Amberg in connection with a secret decree of the Ministry of Justice, pursuant to which Engert inspected the prison records for asocial inmates for transfer to Mauthausen concentration camp.

Of an estimated 122 transfers to Mauthausen that the affiant knows about, the transportation to Mauthausen was handled by the Gestapo. All secret records concerning this Ministry of Justice decree of Department 15, to transfer these people, were destroyed before the arrival of the American troops. Reading now from page 6 of the document book:

"As I have heard, Engert went from one penitentiary to another to select these people. After the Gestapo of Regensburg had these people transferred to Mauthausen, I do not know what happened to them.

THE PRESIDENT: What page are you now reading from?

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Page 6, Your Honor.

Prosecution offers as Exhibit No. 275, Document NG-506.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On page 53n of the English book, which is page 14 in the German, is found NG-471, which is the sworn affidavit of the defendant Engert wherein he first describes his negotiations with Himmler regarding the relations of the Gestapo to the People's Court. He also traces the creation of Division 15 in the Ministry of Justice on the first of November 1942, which he headed. The task of Division 15, he says, was the "solution of the problem of the asocials," by removing them from houses of correction and handing them over to the Gestapo, pursuant to an agreement with Himmler. In addition to undefined other categories of inmates, Engert states that he was asked by Thierack to look upon political prisoners as asocial. He denies that the transfers of Jews, Poles and Gypsies were under his superivision, but, rather, he says, "were under that of SenatePresident Hecker." Reading now from page 13 of the English book, which is 18 of the German --- in the German it is at time bottom of 17 and at the top of 18 -- "about twelve thousand inmates of the correction houses were assigned for transfer to the Gestapo.

That was the amount which Thierack mentioned to me during a conference also attended by Hecker. Out of the total 12,000, my division assigned 3,000 for transfer in 1942. How many Poles and Gypsies were assigned, I do not know. That must be in the statistics."

Prosecution offers Exhibit 400 as Exhibit 276, Document NG--471.

We have passed the usual recess time. We will now recess for a period of 13 minutes.

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is now in recess for fifteen minutes.

(A recess was taken)

THE MARSHAL: All persons in the court room will take their seats.

This Tribunal is again in session.

THE PRESIDENT: We will not adjourn today until twelve-thirty, at which time we will recess until two o'clock.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: May I take this time to call to the Court's attention that after the conclusion of the witness we will call this morning -- and whatever cross-examination may transpire this afternoon -- the next document book to which the Prosecution will refer will be VII, Document Book VII. It might be advisable to have that in Court this afternoon.

JUDGE BRAND: We have not received it yet.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: I believe that the Secretary has it. He will give it to you.

Turning now to Document NG-1008; this document was distributed separately and is to be inserted at the end of Book IV-C. The first page of this document will become page 17, in the English book.

THE PRESIDENT: I don't see how that will work out. The last page in that book is page 7.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: The last page of Book IV-C is 16, I believe, Your Honor. At least, it is in my book.

JUDGE BRAND: This has already been inserted in the book.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: That is fine.

NG-1008 is the sworn affidavit of Senate-President Robert Hecker which we offer into evidence in its entirety -- but without reading. We offer it as Prosecution Exhibit 277.

THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit will be received in evidence.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: The prosecution calls as its witness one Robert Hecker. (The Marshal summoned the Witness.)

Robert Hecker, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows: BY JUDGE BLAIR:

Mill you hold up your right hand and repeat this oath after me:

I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.

(The witness repeated the oath.)

(The witness then took his seat.)

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WOOLEYHAN:

Q Witness, will you please tell the Court your name.

A Robert Hecker.

Q Would you please briefly describe your legal education, if any, and any official positions you may have held?

A I was Refrendar, legal expert and as such, at first, I worked at the public prosecutors office. After I completed this apprenticeship, Refrendar, I became an assessor, and an assistant at the public prosecutor at Kammergericht, and subsequently as public prosecutor in Berlin. Thereafter, I was assigned to the penal execution for education. In 1923, I was appointed expert for penal executions at the Oberlandesgericht in Stettin, the district court of appeals in Stettin. There I remained for ten years. In 1933, I was transferred to Berlin to the general public prosecutor at the Kammergericht, and then in the fall or winter of 1933, I was employed in the Ministry of Justice. In the Prussian Reich Ministry of Justice I was employed from 1933 until 1945. There I belonged to the division for penal executions. Originally I was first public prosecutor, then I became Kammergerichtsrat, judge, and in 1941 senate president.

Q Senate President Hecker, what was the number of the division in the Reich Ministry of Justice where you finally held your position?

A That was department five, the division for penal execution.

Q Senate President Hecker, at the present time you are detained in the Nurnberg jail, are you not?

A Yes.

Q At various times in the past the Prosecution has interrogated you; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q During these interrogations did you ever, at any time, feel that you were being placed under pressure?

A No, never.

Q Senate President Hecker, were you ever mistreated at any time?

Q Were you ever promised any reward?

Q Did the Prosecution, through its interrogators ever ask you to say anything other than what you knew to be the truth?

A No, there was absolutely no influence exerted.

Q Now, Senate President Hecker, as part of your work in division five of the Ministry of Justice, did you know of a program transferring certain inmates of Reich prisons under the jurisdiction of the Justice Ministry; namely, Jews, Poles, Gypsies, and so-called associal prisoners to concentration camps?

A Yes, in 1942, there was such an order.

Q Before this order that you described cane into effect in 1942, before that, were there many attempts to effect such transfers?

A Yes, the RSHA had already repeatedly attempted to obtain prisoners into their own camps without any success, at that time.

Q You say that the RSHA attempted to transfer these prison inmates to their own camps without any success. What was the Ministry of Justice's attitude during these first, early, attempts to make these transfers?

A It was a negative attitude because at that time, the Ministry of Justice had a negative attitude toward them, the Minister at that time.

Q By "the Minister at that time", do you mean Hans Guertner?

A That was Minister Guertner.

Q You said he was opposed to these early attempts to transfer prison inmates to concentration camps. Do you know why he was opposed?

A The reason for that was the following: When the prisoners were transferred to concentration camps, then the penalty was interrupted, the sentence was interrupted, serving of the sentence. In that way the possibility of the Ministry of Justice to have any influence on the penalty and the prisoner could, therefore, be detained beyond the end of the penalty which the court had determined. Furthermore, there was no possibility for the Justice Ministry, as soon as the prisoner had been transferred to take care of them in the future. It was not possible to get any information about the fate of the prisoner, that is, the fate which befell them in the camps.

Q You speak of the fate which would befall prison inmates if they were transferred to concentration camps. To support his attitude of disapproving such transfers, did Guertner ever tell you, why he feared such a move?

A He did not tell me so himself, but during the lectures of after the trial, he said that he had misgivings because the treatment of the people in the camps was not in accordance with the conditions which we had in the penitentiaries, jails or the prisons. One had to act in accordance with the prison regulations whereas in the camps other principles were decisive, and which could not be influenced by the Ministry of Justice.

Q You speak of the fact that the treatment of prisoners in concentration camps did not conform to that of the treatment of prisoners in the Reich prisons, by that do you mean that the treatment in the concentration camps was more or less severe than that in the Reich prisons?

A The treatment was stricter and the personnel was not trained in the way which we trained them for the prisons in the Justice Department

Q Senate President Hecker, did you know, at that time, or later, that inmates of concentration camps were starved, beaten and murdered?

Transcript for NMT 3: Justice Case

Defendants