Transcript for NMT 3: Justice Case

Q Witness, can you tell us what happened to the former General Public Prosecutor, Hansen, after that time when you talked to him?

A For the last time, I had a telephone conversation with Hansen on the twenty-second or twenty-third of April. From that time on I don't know. I never saw him again, and I never heard anything about him.

DR. SCHILF: May it please the Tribunal, no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any other of Defense Counsel desire to cross-examine this witness? Apparently not.

Is there any re-direct examination?

MR. LA FOLLETTE: There is no re-direct examination. I ask the witness to be excused.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be excused.

(Witness excused.)

What is the program of the Prosecution for the remainder of this day?

MR. LA FOLLETTE: We have documents, if Your Honors want them. We don't know how long the Tribunal desires to sit. We have some documents from supplemental Book I which has been distributed.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal desires to adjourn not later than four o'clock, so that we will recess at this time and take up such matters as you desire after the reconvening.

(A recess was taken.)

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: May it please the Court. The prosecution turns now to Supplementary Book 1. The first document in Supplementary Book 1 is NG-630. This is a letter bearing the letterhead of the Reich Minister of Justice dated Berlin, 20 July 1935. The letter constitutes a directive addressed to the Chief Public Prosecutors and Senior Public Prosecutors, ostensibly throughout the Reich. The subject of this directive is entitled "Struggle Against Political Catholicism". This directive bears the personal signature of the defendant Schlegelberger. The directive orders the addressees, namely, the prosecutors throughout the Reich, to assume as their duty the prosecution of Catholicism of a political nature, and from the second paragraph of this directive I would like to read the following:

"I decree it to be the duty of all prosecuting authorities to cooperate closely with the competent state police and administrative authorities in taking action - with the deliberation necessary to avoid mistakes but also with the severity necessitated by the dangerous nature against all manifestations of the efforts of political Catholicism to undermine the unity of the state."

Skipping to the last paragraph on the first page of this directive, Schlegelberger goes on to state:

"The cases must be investigated with the utmost rapidity, so that the punishment will follow the crime as quickly as possible. The penalties called for at the trials shall be such as the national sense of justice deems appropriate to the dangerous nature of these intrigues against the state.

"A report must be made to me in quintiplicate in all cases where proceedings of this type are initiated."

As I have said, this directive is personally signed by Schlegelberger.

The Prosecution offers as Exhibit No. 428, document NG-630.

THE PRESIDENT: The document will be received in evidence.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On page 3 of both the English and German books is found NG 728 is a secret order to all the State Ministries and Provinces, districts and areas, etc., through the Reich, dated 20 September 1938, and signed by Heinrich Himmler. This secret order begins on page 4 of both the English and German books, and is pointed toward the creation of certain so-called frontier districts in the event of Reich mobilization for defense, as it was called. This long, detailed order for mobilization and creation of frontier districts, signed by Himmler, is endorsed by the defendant Schlegelberger in a covering letter to the President of the Berlin Court of Appeal and the Presidents of the Courts of Appeal and Attorney General through the Reich, also circulated to the President of the Reich Supreme Court, the President of the People's Court, the Attorney General at the Reich Supreme Court and the People's Court.

The covering letter, signed "Dr. Schlegelberger," indicates a complete knowledge of the contents of the Himmler directive. The Himmler directive is self-explanatory, and without further reading the Prosecution offers document NG-728 as Exhibit 429.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: The Tribunal will remember that in the past the Prosecution has offered in evidence and has had admitted at least two documents of a similar nature, each of which were entitled "Fuehrer Information." Each of those documents was a single sheet printed in extraordinary size type and sent from the Reich Minister of Justice to Hitler personally for his information as to certain occurrences within the sphere of the Administration of Justice. If I remember correctly, one such Fuehrer Information was introduced during the examination of the witness Frau Solf. One other was introduced previously to that regarding another matter.

We find, in relation to those Fuehrer Informations, that on page 12 of the English book and on page 11 of the German, NG-759 is a memorandum explaining the institution of those Fuehrer Informations and the reason for creating such a bulletin.

This memorandum is dated Berlin, the 1st of May 1942, is signed by Dr. Schlegelberger, and in part it states the following:

"In order to safeguard the transmission of adequate responsible information concerning judicial matters to the Fuehrer"--obviously meaning Hitler--" even at such times when a verbal report is not possible, I introduce as from today a regular written report for the Fuehrer as a war-time measure.

"This report for the Fuehrer will give information in telegraphic style about important court judgments and day to day events, also plans and measures adopted by the Reich Minister of Justice."

Skipping a paragraph, Schlegelberger goes on to order:

"Unless immediate submission is necessary, I propose, for the present time, to have the report for the Fuehrer sent to him weekly. It will be dispatched every Friday."

Signed, "Dr. Schlegelberger."

The Prosecution offers Exhibit 430, document NG-759.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On page 13 of the English book, which is page 12 of the German, is found NG-781. This appears to be a notice bearing the abbreviated letterhead of the Reich Ministry of Justice, dated Berlin, 8 February 1943. It is addressed to various Cabinet officials, including the Reich Minister of Interior, the Reich Minister of Finance, the Chief of the Nazi Party Chancellery, and the Reich Minister and Chief of the Chancellery of the Reich. It is a recommendation for the appointment of the Judge, Dr. Rothaug, to be Reich Public Prosecutor at the People's Court.

This notice dwells at some length upon the defendant Rothaug's qualifications for such a position and indicates in part the following:

"His" -- that is, Rothaug's -- "devotion to the ideology of National Socialism and his profound understanding for the need for the protection of national life render him particularly qualified for his appointment to the position of a Reich Public Prosecutor at the People's Court."

This notice is initialed by the Reich Minister of Justice Thierack.

The Prosecution offers as Exhibit 431, NG-781.

THE PRESIDENT: What was the exhibit number you mentioned?

MR. WOOLEYHAN: No. 431.

THE PRESIDENT: That is correct. The document will be received in evidence.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On page 28 of the English book, and the German book likewise, is found NG-789. That is a single page document in the form of an office memorandum. It is dated Berlin, 17 December 1943, and has the typed name "Dr. Thierack." However, the memorandum is authenticated on its face in the upper right-hand corner by the initial of the defendant Klemm.

This memorandum is entitled "Internal Regulation", concerning "The consideration of Racial, Hereditary, and Criminal-Biological Viewpoints in Educational Questions." It concerns the training and education of judges, and indicates that a fundamental part of the training of judges must include the following: Racial, hereditary, and criminalbiological lines of thought, describing that as belonging to the entire new generation. Various other authenticating marks appear on the face of this memorandum.

The prosecution offers as Exhibit 432, document NG-789.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On page 29 of the English book, which is page 27 of the German, is found NG-825. This document comprises notes on a conference between the defendant Rothenberger, and SS Sturmbannfuehrer of the SD Subsection in Hamburg, and an SS Oberscharfuehrer Judge of the Local Court. In this conference the defendant Rothenberger declares his willingness and desire to cooperate on judicial matters with the SD in Hamburg.

Without setting out the details, the Prosecution offers that document as Exhibit 432 -- or 433?

DR. WANDSCHNEIDER (Counsel for the defendant Rothenberger): This record of a discussion between Dr. Rothenberger and SS Sturmbannfuehrer Eckhardt has a date and a place- mark, but there is no signature of any kind, so that any evidence of the correct reporting of the conversation as the basis of this record is in no way given. For that reason I would like to have this document not considered as having probative value and not to have it admitted in evidence.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Your Honor, as a captured document it is the best evidence the prosecution could procure. I might further add, Your Honor, that this being notes on a conference, the fact that there is no signature either typed or written at the end does not necessarily invalidate the fact, because conference notes frequently are found without any signature.

THE PRESIDENT: Being a captured document, we think it is admissible under the rules.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On page 31 of the English book, which is page 29 of the German, is found NG-857, a single page document bearing the letterhead of the Reich Ministry of Justice, dated Berlin, 21 September 1943, and signed by Minister Thierack. In the lower left-hand corner certain handwritten notations state, "After dispatch of this memorandum it is to be given to the State Secretary for his information." There are certain illegible initials to the right of that directive. In view of the fact that this memorandum was sent by Thierack to the State Secretary, it becomes relevant to re-examine the date of the memorandum, which, being 29 September 1943, is within the tenture of office of the defendant Rothenberger.

This directive, although brief, directs close cooperation between the Ministry of Justice, the Reichsfuehrer SS - that is, Himmler - and the Reich Security Main Office, that is, the RSHA in Berlin. The language is interesting. Thierack says:

"I would appreciate it if, together with the Chief Public Prosecutor of the Reich, you would invite SS-Brigadefuehrer Ohlendorf and SS Brigadefuehrer Cerff to speak before the members of the Supreme Court and before the Public Prosecution of the Reich. This plan has been suggested by the Reichsfuehrer SS" - that is Himmler - "and I welcome it. The two Brigadefuehrer can both be reached in care of the RSHA in Berlin."

The prosecution offers as Exhibit 434 Document NG-857.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On page 32 of the English book, which is page 30 of the German, we find a rather lengthy collection of notes on a conference held between the Nazi Party Chancery and the Ministry of Justice, on the 22nd of June, 1943, in Munich. Attending that conference, among others, were the defendant Klemm, who was then in his capacity as a member of the Party Chancery, and the defendant Alstoetter, of the Ministry of Justice. The subject of that conference was the importance of political opinions from the Nazi Party agencies as regards the results in judicial cases.

And the document, at some length, arrives at a favorable reception to those political opinions in judicial cases.

Without further reading, the Prosecution offers as Exhibit 435, document NG-889.

DR. SCHILF (Counsel for the defendant Klemm): May it please the Court, the photostat of this document does not show from which office this document originates. Also, it does not contain any handwritten signature. The name "Dr. Bergmann" is only typed on it. On the document there are no handwritten notes whatsoever; neither is there a stamp nor any other indication as to from which authority or from which office this document originates.

I would therefore like to ask that this document be accepted with the following limitation, namely, that it does not have full probative value but only a certain probative value exclusively as a captured document.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Your Honor, the prosecution is forced to offer these conference notes in the condition in the condition in which they are found and as such they are the best evidence. I petition that this document as well as other conference notes that are captured documents be admitted with all the probative value the Court wished to find and with no limitation.

THE PRESIDENT: Of course, like all other exhibits the Court will not make any announcement as to how much probative value is given but we think this document is admissible under the rules of evidence as a captured document.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On page 38 of the English book which is page 39 in the German there is found NG-901. This document is entitled "An Order for the Initiation of Proceedings" and is a collection of three similar orders on that subject, each signed by the defendant Schlegelberger wherein Schlegelberger demands the investigation of three notaries whom he believes should be dismissed for certain political reasons and without further reading except to note that the dates of these three orders range from May to December of 1938 and June of 1939. We offer the document NG-901 as Exhibit 436.

MR. WOOLEHAN: On page 43 of the English book which is page 45 of the German is found NG 919. This is a lengthy report bearing the letterhead of the Reich Ministry of Justice, dated, Berlin, 7 April 1942. It bears certain authenticating initials, among those is that of the Cabinet Minister Lammers and concerns itself with a meeting by the representatives of the Reich Ministry of Justice, the Reich Chancellor, the Nazi Party Chancellory and certain officials from a Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia whereat were discussed elaborate details and proposed simplifications of the administration of criminal law.

The word "simplification" is perhaps misleading, in describing this document. The word "summary" would perhaps be more applicable. Taking part in this meeting throughout and contributing a not inconsiderable amount to what was discussed and decided on this further simplification and rendering more summary of criminal procedure was the defendant Klemm who was then in his capacity as a Ministerialrat in the Nazi Party Chancellory prior to his appointment as Undersecretary in the Ministry of Justice. Without wading through this conference but offering it in its entirety the Prosecution offers as Exhibit No. 437 Document NG-919.

MR. WOOLEHAN: On page 62 of the English book which is page 71 of the German is found NG-938. This is a letter under the letterhead of the Supreme Chief of the SA. The Oberst J.A. Fuehrer. The letterhead continues to state that in the office of the Supreme Chief of the SA this letter originates from the Adjutants Office of the Chief of Staff. SA Liaison Office in the Reich Ministry of Justice, dated, Berlin, 4 December 1936. This letter is addressed to the Reich Ministry of Justice and in this letter the writer, namely, the defendant Klemm suggests five Honorary Lay-judges to be appointed to the Peoples Court on behalf of the Chief of Staff of the SA. These five SA officers whom Klemm proposes have ranks ranging from General, namely Obergruppenfuehrer, down through the various lower ranks of Generals, Gruppenfuehrer, Brigadefuehrer, Brigadefuehrer to Colonel, Oberfuehrer.

Klemm concludes with the remarks; "I should be grateful if the above-named would be included among the nominees proposed to the Fuehrer and Reich Chancellor. "It is personally signed by the defendant Klemm. The last page of the document indicates that Hitler took kindly to these suggestions of the defendant Klemm in that all five of his nominees that were proposed were accepted by Hitler and duly appointed. That is seen from the last page of the document which is on page 64 of the English book and on page 74 of the German. The prosecution offers as Exhibit 438 Document NG-938.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On page 65 of the English book which is page 75 of the German is found NG-1070. This is a reprint of a law which should have been included among those collected in Document Book II and is included here to be made a matter of reference. This law was passed in December 1933 as one of the first measures of the incoming NAZI-government and is entitled "A Law for the Safeguarding of Unity, of Party and State." Among other things it destroys and renders illegal any political party save that of the National Socialist Party.

THE PRESIDENT: Is this passed by the Reichstag?

MR. WOOLEYHAN: It bears only the signatures of Hitler and Frick, your Honor, and whether or not the Reichstag in full session passed on it I am not prepared to state.

THE PRESIDENT: It would bear the signature of Hindenburg if it had been an action of the Reichstag.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Not necessarily, your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: At any rate, the Reich Government has passed it as I see from the top.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: Therefore a number of statutes that were passed by Hitler alone before that time. I will inquire, your Honor, and inform the bench of whether or not the Reichstag passed it. We have this statute to be attached to Document Book II as Exhibit 439.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean by that to detach this instrument from this book and attach it to Book II?

MR. WOOLEYHAN: I don't think that will be necessary, your Honor. Just make a notation in Book II that an additional statute exists.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: On page 67 of the English Book which is page ** of the German is found NG-1306. It is sworn affidavit by the Prosecutor with the Administrative Division of the Public Prosecutor's Office in the Stuttgart Court of Appeals, one Hans Dejlovec. Prosecutor Dejlovec in this affidavit states under oath that he remembers a decree concerning the handling of proceedings against people who had killed and murdered parachutist Allied Airmen within the Reich.

The affiant states that this decree was distributed to the Senior Public Prosecutors throughout the Reich presumably, and was labeled either "secret" or "top secret". The Prosecutor goes on to affirm that this decree had the usual form of all Ministry of Justice decrees, and in any case was issued after Goebbels' appeal for the killing of allied air men which had appeared in the press. The affiant concluded from the entire meaning of this decree that the Ministry of Justice considered as undesirable any proceedings against people who had murdered parachuted allied air men. The affiant further knew that in this decree it called for a report to the Ministry of Justice, together with the submission of the records in all cases involving the murder of parachuted allied air men. The affiant also recalls that this decree referred to displeased him, because he concluded from it that through the violations of international law, like the murdering of parachuted allied air men, as propagated by Goebbles, were being sanctioned by the Ministry of Justice.

Without further reading, we offer this affidavit, NG-1306 as Exhibit 440.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: The last document in this book is NG-1307, and it is a sworn affidavit by Hans Josef Altmeyer, formerly in Division Four of the Reich Ministry of Justice, where in Altmeyer explains in detail the methods whereby death sentences pronounced, particularly by the People's Court and Special Courts, were reviewed by the Ministry of Justice, clemancy appeals decided on, and execution orders issued. The mechanism of this Ministry review of death sentences and the method and manner in which the death sentences were carried out involves particularly the defendant Klemm.

Without reading this affidavit of Altmeyer's, we offer it as Exhibit 441.

MR. LaFOLLETTE: If your Honors please, that consists of all the documents in Supplemental Book I, with the exception of one more document; that is all we are prepared to offer today.

I do like to say for the benefit of Defense Counsel and the Court that Monday at 0930 we will recall the witness Hecker for cross examination solely upon his Nacht and Nebel affidavit which is NG- 737, Exhibit 416. I state that because I think the record now shows that with the exception of that matter he has been cross examined on all other matters. We hope to follow that witness with a witness of the subject of sterilization. I think we will be able to, but we will have Hocker the first thing Monday morning.

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn a t this time until 9:30 o'clock Monday morning.

( The Tribunal adjourned until 12 May, 1947; at 0930 hours.)

Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Josef Alstoetter, et al., Defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 12 May 1947, 0930-1640, Justice Marshall presiding.

THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.

The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 3.

Military Tribunal 3 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.

There will be order in the court.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you will please ascertain if the defendants are all present.

THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honors, all the defendants are present in the court room with the exception of defendant Engert, who is absent due to illness.

THE PRESIDENT: The absence of the Defendant Engert is by request and proper notation will be made.

MR. LAFOLLETTE: Your Honor will recall the witness Hecker is recalled for the purpose of cross examination.

THE PRESIDENT: Cross examination may proceed.

MR. LAFOLLETTE: Will Your Honor want to reswear the witness?

THE PRESIDENT: No, I don't think so. He has been sworn. It is part of the cross examination.

MR. LAFOLLETTE: Yes.

ROBERT HECKER - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. KUBOSCHOK (For Defendant von Ammon)

Q Witness, on the 5th of January 1947 you submitted an affidavit regarding the transfer of the NN prisoners to the police. In this affidavit you state that in Department 5 of the Justice Ministry you had a position in the so-called penal execution department and that the taking care of the NN prisoners was part of the job of that department.

In this capacity you took part in a discussion in the fall of 1940. This discussion was held in the OKW because of the transfer of the NN prisoners to the police. In your affidavit you describe that you had that inner considerations about this transfer and as to how the police offices would possibly classify the prisoners and decide about them. According to your affidavit you were probably thinking of the experiences which you made in your Department 5 in the transfer of the asocials and Jews. I am now asking, did you discuss these personal considerations with Mr. von Ammon at the time?

Q Thank you. Secondly, did Department 4, in which Herr von Ammon was working, have anything to do with the transfer of the asocials and Jews which I have just mentioned?

Q Is it correct that in this meeting the representatives of the Reich Ministry of Justice said in regard to the statements of the OKW, or rather, that they did not state any position in regard to these statements, but stated that they would have to wait first of all for the decision of the Reichminister of Justice Thierack?

A That is correct. First, it was to be submitted to him, and then they were to be informed of his decision.

Q Is it correct that the matter was submitted to Thierack when Ammon was not present and that Thierack decided it at that time?

A I personally do not knew about that. I don't know who submitted the matter to Thierack. I only know that Department 4 took care of the matter and that afterwards a decree was issued by Department 4--.

Q Did you not speak yourself about it with Minister Thierack?

A No. When he was informed about it I was not present myself.

Q Herr von Ammon states, and I ask you to state your opinion as to whether this might be possible that this matter was not reported to Thierack by him, that is von Ammon, but by others, and that Ammon received Thierack's decision after it had been made, and his superior the chief of Department 4, then took ever the further care of this matter, that is, the working out of the order.

A Well, as far as I remember, the matter was as follows, that the Generalreferent, the general expert and the representative of Herr von Ammon or Herr von Ammon himself reported the matter and that after that a regulation was issued which the Chief of the department signed.

Q Do you know anything about the fact that there was a misunderstanding prevalent in this matter, that in accordance with the agreement the OKW was supposed to send a draft to the Ministry of Justice, that therefore Ammon still waited before submitting the matter to the Minister and that then he was surprised when he received it since he was still waiting for the draft by the 0KW, that he thereafter, after the decision had been made complained to the OKW, that the draft had not been sent to them and that the misunderstanding was then cleared up in the following way, that the Minister had been informed not by von AmmOn but by somebody else. Do you know anything about this?

MR. LAFOLLETTE: If Your Honors please, I object to the question for these reasons, first, the information and condition of the mind of the defendant von Ammon, that he was surprised, about which the witness can know nothing; and second, about the very statement of the involved question. There are included in the hypothesis facts about which this witness has no knowledge, or could no knowledge. For that reason I object to the question, on both grounds.

DR. KUBOSCHOK: The question of the misunderstanding is very important. In order to point out the misunderstanding to the witness, or rather, the extent of the misunderstanding. I had to make these brief explanations.

THE PRESIDENT: The difficulty is that they are not merely explanations. They were assuming the existence of facts concerning which there is not an iota of testimony so far, and I think the Prosecution's objection is well founded that this witness could not possibly know the state of mind of von Ammon. The objection will be sustained.

DR. KUBOSCHOK: I have finished with my questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Does any other defense counsel desire to cross examine this witness.

Has the prosecution any redirect examination of this witness?

MR. LAFOLLETTE: No, Your Honor, we have no redirect.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be excused.

MR. LAFOLLETTE: We have a witness to follow. I assume he is on the way up. I seem to be a little short handed in the courtroom this morning.

We will have a witness here in just a minute if he is not outside, Your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: I have a personal reason for desiring to know whether you have a full day of work before the Court today on the part of the Prosecution.

MR. LAFOLLETTE: I think we will have, Your Honor. I can tell you better in probably fifteen minutes. We have two witnesses who both should be in Nurnberg, and of course the extent to which they will occupy the time will largely depend on the extensiveness of their examination. We do have some documents with which we may follow, just as soon as I can get the witness. May we consider ourselves in recess in chambers for just a minute until I find the witness?

THE PRESIDENT: Under the circumstances we will take five minutes recess at this time.

MR. LAFOLLETTE: Thank you, Your Honor. I am sorry about this.

(A recess was taken)

THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.

MR. WOOLEYHAN: The prosecutions calls the witness Klees.

RUDOLF KLEES, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:

JUDGE BRAND: Will you raise your right hand and repeat after me the following oath:

I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.

(The witness repeated the oath.)

JUDGE BRAND: You may be seated.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WOOLEYHAN:

Q Witness, will you please tell the court your full name and your place of residence.

A Rudolf Klees, Diez on the Lahn, Greteweg No. 7.

Q When were you born, Mr. Klees?

A On the 20th of May 1914 in Limburg.

Q During your life, what has been your main occupation?

A My main occupation was that from 1928 on I worked for a cattle dealer until 1937, or the beginning of 1938. It was a cattle business I took part in all the transports and I bought cattle and sold it again. He was a Jewish so-called "Viehhaendler"--cattle dealer.

Q Mr. Klees, do you have any brothers or sisters?

A Yes, I do. I have three sisters and five brothers.

Q Are your three sisters and five brothers alive now?

A Two of them are dead; one sister and one brother are dead.

Q Of your brothers and sisters which are now living, are any of them ill that you know of?

Q Is your mother still living, Mr. Klees?

A No. She died in 1939.

Q Do you know of what she died?

Q Yes. During the menopause she was in bed for a year end a half and after that she died.