THE PRESIDENT: It is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: The next document, number 93, again is an affidavit by Robert Kecker to which I am sure the objection of the Prosecution will apply. I ask to reserve the exhibit number 86 for this document.
MR. WOOLEYHAN: That is true, your Honor, except that I believe that is Dr. Kubuschok's Document 94. At least it is in my bock.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: 93; 94 is another document. In the English table of contents there is a mistake. In the table of contents of the English document book the affidavit Hecker is 93 and the copy from the Court of Appeals files from the Darmstadt Court of Appeals concerning Amtsgerichtsrat Hornef, Document 94. It appears in the English book as 93. Document No. 93 is affidavit Hecker for which I ask that the number 86 be reserved.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit will be marked for identification 86. Ruling will be reserved along with the other Hecker affidavit.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: The next document, No. 94 again concerns the case of Amtsgerichtsrat Hornef, who had submitted the affidavit, signed the affidavit against which the Prosecution has objected. I believe that this ease is somewhat different. I hope that the prosecution will have no objection against this document. It is a certified copy of a letter from the Reichstatthalter, the Reich Governor in Hessen, a certifying official of the local court has witnessed that it is identical with the original. It is not really an affidavit but an identification of a document or the copy of a document. From the document itself we can see that Hornef very actively supported the interests of the church, and among other things, in February 1941 he rented a room in order to make it possible for Poles to have Catholic church services. That, of course, exposed him to serious attacks on the part of the Party. The letter shows in what harsh manner the Gauleiter Sprenger attacked Dr. Hornef. From the affidavit which I shall submit later in corrected form, we will see how Schlegelberger intervened for him in spite of this.
If there is no objection, I ask that this document be accepted as Exhibit 87.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Now I come to Document Book 2. The next document I am not offering, the next document in this same document book.
Document Book 2, on page one of that document book as document No. 30 we find a copy of the title page of Law Comparing Manual for the Civil and Commercial Law at Rome and Abroad published by Schlegelberger. I refer to the names of the people who collaborated with Schlegelberger in publishing this book. They are the most famous names in German legal literature.
On page 2 of this document the preface shows the aims of that opus. On page 4 we find the names of foreign contributors. On page 4 to 7 is this list of names. Page 8 has a table of contents of the first volume. I ask that this document be accepted as Exhibit 88.
JUDGE BRAND: The Exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 31 is an affidavit of the defendant Schlegelberger. To assure that his examination on the witness stand should not be burdonel with a list of the titles of the books he has written I submitted the list in this volume. We can see in this list the best known legal works that he has written, Many small writings or phamplets, have been omitted. Of special importance, so that one could consider the standard works of literature, are the titles listed on the first page. Voluntary Jurisdiction", text book commentary in two volumes, and the Law of Stocks in collaboration with the Special Ministry of Justice. Also the Commercial Code on page 10, a large commentary of standard books for German jurist. I submit this document as Exhibit 89.
JUDGE BRAND: We hear no objection, and the Exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 32 is art affidavit by Dr. Philip Moehring. The Defendant Schlegelberger worked together with Moehring in the field of legal literature. I read the last paragraph on the first page:
"Dr. Schlegelberger had, therefore, to assume that I also had a negative attitude towards the regime. However, he could not know whether I would not make any use of his utterances which could prove detrimental to him. My impression was that Dr. Schlegelberger wanted to use his position in order to direct matters, which were deteriorating more and more in favor of a legitimate administration of justice. We jurists always had the impression that Dr. Schlegelberger tried to keep the judicial system as much as possible free from the illegal demands of the Nazis. I know that in one case, where I myself was involved, he also opposed succeed of some enroachments which had been planned against the judicial Then he describes a case where Schlegelberger tried to support a person counteracting Goebbels.
The witness summarizes the text in the next paragraph:
"I am citing this case in order to illustrate that, according to my personal experience, Dy. Schlegelberger successfully opposed any encroachments on the administration of justice."
I offer this affidavit as Exhibit 90.
JUDGE BLAND: The Exhibit is received.
Dr. KUBUSCHOK: The next document is an affidavit by Hans Luther, former Reich Chancellor during the Weimar Republic and later Ambassador in Washington. I road from page 2, the last sentence of the first paragraph :
"Never did I notice any deviation from the time of most lucid objectivity, coupled with a fine feeling for individual human needs, which so often became the object of discussions concerned with further measures for the maintenance'of stabilization."
Then he describes his Later meetings with Schlegelberger. I read beginning with the eighth line from the bottom of that page:
"On such meetings I never noticed anything that would have changed my above-stated opinion, of Dr. Schlegelberger's personality; I recall distinctly from our conversation that ho condemned, without reservation, the numerous excesses - and worse acts - of National Socialism. In tho latter sense I like to mention the following: A very close friend of mine from my youth, Dr. Walter Froehlich (at that time Reichsgerichtsrat in Leipzig, now missing and most likely dead) whom I met repeatedly until the end of 1943, maintained a quite intimate contact, as it seemed to me, with Dr. Schlegelberger. Dr. Froehlich was a strong opponent of everything National Socialist. He expressed great respect for Dr. Schlegelberger, whenever his name was mentioned in our conversation."
I offer this document as Exhibit 91.
JUDGE BRAND: The Exhibit is received.
Dr. KUBUSCHOK: Document 34 is a letter from the Chief of tho Chancellery, to Schlegelberger, of the 30th of January 1938, by which ho was accepted as a Party member. I read the first sentence:
"On the occasion of the fifth anniversary of the national socialistic rise to power, the Fuehrer has ordered that you will be admitted into the NSDAP."
I submit that Document as Exhibit 92.
JUDGE BRAND: The Exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 35 is an affidavit by attorney Dr. Rudolf Dix. I read the second paragraph:
"I have known the former under secretary Dr. Schlegelberger since the time when I was president of the German Amtswalterverein that is, since 1932. But also after in spring 1933 I resigned from my office as president of the German Amtswalterverein because of my opposition to national socialism. I remained in permanent contact with Schlegelberger sup ported my efforts on behalf of the Jewish lawyers at that time. The then Reich Minister of Justice, Dr. Guertner was ill and off duty during the period when the first law against Jewish lawyers was formulated. Schlegelberger acted as his substitute. At any rate Schlegelberger lent an ear to my repeated, at that time perhaps daily, representations in the interest of the Jewish colleagues. I was able to speak quite frankly to him and to point out to him the moral and political impossibility of the purpose of the Nazi regime at that time. Of course, I was not present at the corresponding discussions of the cabinet. Concluding from his attitude towards me I have no doubt, however, that Schlegelberger used his influence according to the promises he made to me. Also later on, when I tried to interest him for people prosecuted for political reasons, or were represented or defended by me, Schlegelberger always readily listened to me."
Then he mentions the case of the Bishop of Meissen, and the case of Herr Lehfeldt, a non-Aryan in the sense of the Nurnberg Law. About the tenth line from the bottom of that page I read:
"I can only say that he always gave his attention to me, a lawyer who constantly supported politically persecuted people and who was known as such in the Ministry of Justice; and, in my opinion, he did everything within his possibilities for the men who were represented by me. Of course, the stress must be put on the words, "within his possibilities", for the position of the Ministry of Justice became more and more difficult and weak, as far as it tried to support the existing current drive for right and humanity. To me, at any rate, Schlegelberger never gave the cold shoulder. For fairness' sake I have to acknowledge this and like to do it herewith. When Thierack became minister I very seldom went to the Ministry since, under his leadership, one could not expect any longer that anything would be done in favor of justice against the people in power. That's what constituted the great contrast to the era Guertner/Schlegelberger. In this respect we attorneys are able to give a competent judgment."
I offer this document as Exhibit 93.
JUDGE BRAND: The Exhibit is received.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Document 36 is a supplement to that affidavit by the same affiant, Dr. Rudolf Dix.
MR. WOOLEYHAN: May it please your Honors, it states on the face of this document which Dr. Kubuschok has just introduced, that it is intended as a supplement to a former affidavit. That former affidavit is not identified as of by date nor by other means. Therefore, we object to this document on the grounds that it is intended as a statement in lieu of oath. It is not in the form required by Rule 21.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: I shall remove the technical deficiencies of Document 36 and submit it again later. I ask that the Exhibit No. 94 be reserved for this document.
JUDGE BRAND: The document will be marked for identification No. 94.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: The next document, No. 37, is an affidavit by Dr. Friedrich Ernst. Dr. Ernst was Reich Commissioner in charge of enemy property. He describes his position and his opinion of the abdication of legal principles in his tasks. I read from page 31, about the second third:
"A. As far as he was able Dr. Schlegelberger helped me to follow my program concerning the trustee administration of enemy property. Very soon after I had started with my activities the expected conflicts with the Main Security Office, the Reich Ministry of Economics and other official and Party agencies started. In these conflicts Dr. Schlegelberger repeatedly gave me considerable support.
"Q. Did you, in this connection, got any impression of Dr. Schlegelberger's general political tendencies?
"A. I noticed from occasional remarks of Dr. Schlegelberger that he worked to the best of his ability against the tendencies of the Party and of other official agencies, in order to maintain, as much as possible, the independence of the judicial administration and especially of judicial pronouncements. In this connection he seems to have gotten into very sharp conflicts with Under Secretary Freisler and with Himmler's offices."
I offer this document as Exhibit No. 95.
JUDGE BRAND: The Exhibit is received.
The time has arrived for our adjournment until tomorrow morning at nine-thirty. He will now adjourn.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 3 July 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America; against Josef Alstoetter, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 3 July 1947, 0930 - 1630. The Honorable James U. Brand, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. III.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you will ascertain if the defendants are all present.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all the defendants are present in the courtroom with the exception of Engert, who is absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Engert is excused. The notation will be made.
MR. LA FOLLETTE: If Your Honors please, before the witness is sworn, there is just one matter I want to call to the attention of the Tribunal and Dr. Kuboschok. In Schlegelberger Document No. 67, Exhibit 80, the law which was copied reads "Reichsanwaelte", and it was copies "Rechtsanwaelte." As a consequence, the translation has been made as "Attorneys-at-law," while it should read "Reich Prosecutors." This occurs at Article 7, Page 42 of Schlegelberger Document Book IV and Section 5, Sub-section 3, on Page 43 of Schlegelberger Document Book IV. Since this is not really a matter of translation but arose out of a typographical error in copying, I am sure that Dr. Kuboschok will agree that the correction should be made.
THE PRESIDENT: That is the Schelgelberger Document 80?
MR. LA FOLLETTE: Document 87, Exhibit 80, yes, and I have given the pages on which this occurs.
DR. HANS GRAMM; a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE BLAIR: Hold up your right hand and repeat after me the following oath:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated tho oath.)
JUDGE BLAIR: You. may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. KUBOSCHOK:
Q Please give us your full name -- first name and last name -your address and your present position.
A Dr. Nans Gramm, 41 years old, Oberlandesgerichtsrat in Hamburg.
Q When did you come into the Reich Ministry of Justice?
A On the 2 January 1935.
Q What was your position in the Reich Ministry of Justice?
A Until February 1936, that was about one year, I was in Department III of the Ministry. Then as a Personnel Referent, I came to Under-Secretary Dr. Schlegelberger. I was with him until May 1938 as Second Personnel Referent. Then after the death of Ministorialrat Wilke, I was First Personnel Referent. Apart from that, I had to deal with naval law. I remained in that position until Dr. Schlegelberger left office in August 1942, and when Dr. Rothenberger came to the Ministry I remained at first in order to help my successor. In the beginning of 1943, I was put at the disposal of tho Wehrmacht -- the Armed Forces -and at tho end of February 1943, I became a soldier. I left the Ministry of Justice at that time.
Q You Till give tho court a short description of your tasks as Personnel Referent.
A The tasks of the Personnel Referent can be described in three groups: In the first category are the usual ante-room things, matters among which I would count take care of the schedules, receiving visitors; and the second groups comprises the following: The Main Office of the Ministry of Justice every day put the mail received as far as it concerned the Under-Secretary into the Under-Secretary's office. I had to go through that mail, and letters that I considered to be important I took out and put them before Dr. Schlegelberger on the occasion of my daily reports every evening to be signed.
The third group of my activities comprised tho following: the various departments sent tho files that they dealt with daily to the office of tho Under-Secretary. It was a question of tho dispositions that tho departments had suggested and that the Under-Secretary had to sign, expressing Ms approval, or which ho had countersigned to submit to tho Minister for tho final signature.
Q You mentioned visitors whom Dr. Schlegelberger received. Could you tell the court a little more about the group of people who used to visit him?
AApart from people who came with questions and would usually come into a ministry with various questions -- people who wanted to see the Under-Secretary with their personal matters -- there were also good friends and old acquaintances who came to see Dr. Schlegelberger with whom for years ho had had friendly and intimate contacts.
Q Were there well-known Party people among these visitors?
A No. Among these visitors there were no well-known Party people. I know that Dr. Schlegelberger told me once, referring to Goebbels, that he did not want to have anything to do with such people. Neither did ho over accept any invitations from Dr. Goebbels or other prominent Party people.
Q Could you remember any visitors whom you think particularly significant?
A Today, of course, it is difficult from the large number of visitors who passed through that ante--room during the years when I worked with Dr. Schlegelberger to mention any names, but I believe that it may be of interest to these proceedings if I Mention two names. A frequent visitor was the Lord Mayor Dr. Goerdeler. Dr. Goerdeler was later one of the main conspirators in connection with the attempted assassination of Hitler in 1944. No frankly and openly expressed his political opinion to me and also to Dr. Schlegelberger.
The relations between Dr. Goerdelor and Dr. Schlegelberger were so good that on the occasion of Dr. Schlegelberger's 60th birthday, in 1936, Dr. Goerdeler wrote an article for the Anniversary Pamphlet which appeared to honor Dr. Schlegelberger.
The second name which I should like to mention in this connection is von Donani. Von Donani had been the Personnel Referent of Minister of Justice Dr. Guertner. He left the I artistry of Justice before Guertner's death and became Roichsgerichtsrat.
A.- ... During tho war he was a close assistant and collaborator of Admiral Canaris in the Counter-Intelligence Department. He also was a man who was hostile to National Socialism. He also criticized quite openly and he, together with Guertner, was among those men who made the attempt in 1944. He also, as I was informed later, was executed. I know Donani personally very well. That dated back from our work together in the Office of the Ministry and the Under Secretary. Also, outside our official work we were on good terms.
Q.- Can you tell us something about the daily routine of Schlegelberger in the Ministry?
A.- When Dr. Schlegelberger arrived at the office in the morning in, the Ministry he used to discuss tho program for the day with me. A definit schedule was worked out for the various reports to be made to him from the different departments, for the visitors who were expected, and for the work with me which We took up during the evening hours. Any time that was loft Dr. Schlegelberger used for his scientific studios and works.
Q.- In what field were those scientific works?
A.- Dr. Schlegelberger is a civil jurist. He is especially interested in commercial and economic law, law concerning stocks, law concerning so-called voluntary jurists, and he also worked on a series of writings about Scandinavian civil law. He also prepared himself for his lectures which he, as a professor of commercial and economic law, was giving to students of tho University of Berlin.
Q.- Do you also know something about tho personal situation of Dr, Schlegelberger?
A.- I know that very well because I visited him frequently at his house. It presented the atmosphere of tho home of a scientist. Dr. Schlegelberger was especially interested in good books -- domestic and foreign. A lot of music was practiced in Schlegelberger's home, and the visitors and friends whom I met there were composed accordingly.
Q.- Did you. over meet any Party officials as visitors in Schlegelberger's house?
A.- No. As I stated, I was frequently at Schlegelberger's home and I never met there a definite Party official. I already mentioned Dr. Schlegelberger's attitude to Goebbels. I never met Frank or Thierack, for instance, in Schlegelberger's house.
Q.- Will you describe to us the official activity of Schlegelberger's until Guertner's death?
A.- The Ministry of Justice had two Undersecretariats -- one was under Dr. Schlegelberger; the other under Dr. Freisler. Dr. Freisler, in 1933, had come into the Prussian Ministry of Justice and on the occasion of the murder of the Prussian Ministry of Justice, with the Reichs Ministry of Justice, come to the Reichs Ministry of Justice. He was an old Party Member. He had the Golden Party Badge. For many years he had been a member of the faction of the N.S.D.A.P. in the Diet. He had been a member of tho Prussian Diet and, therefore, he was considered a confidential agent for the Party in the Reichs Ministry of Justice.
Q.- How was the distribution of fields of work among the two secretariats?
A.- Dr. Schlegelberger dealt with matters of civil law within tho scope of the Reichs Ministry of Justice. Therefore, the following departments were under him; Department 4, as it was called at that time. That was the department for civil law; Department 5 for commercial and economic law; and Department 6, the so-called Budget Department, to which the Construction Department also belonged. Also, the Personnel of the administration of the Ministry of Justice of the Reich, but one half was under Dr. Schlegelberger. The distribution had been made according to districts. Under Dr. Schlegelberger only was the Reichsgericht and the Reichs Patent Office. Dr. Freisler had the Department for Penal matters under his administration. That was Department 2, Penal Legislation -- Department 3, individual penal cases -- also penal execution. Then, he had as I mentioned, the other half of Personnel matters to take care of and then also the People's Court.
Q.- Could you tell us something about Dr. Schlegelberger's principles in personnel matters?
A.- Dr. Schlegelberger put the greatest emphasis on capabilities and qualities of character.
Q.- Did political considerations have anything to do with the decisions of Schlegelberger concerning the employment of officials.
A.- No. Political considerations did not enter into Schlegelbergor's considerations at all. I know that frequently candidates for promotion were presented to him, and it was stated that they had special political merits. He was always against these people because the time it began he emphasized the necessity for the technical capability and qualities of character of an official. But I know that political authorities, especially the deputy of the Fuehrer, or the Party Chancellor, which later took the place of the deputy of the Fuehrer -- that these offices were authorized or entitled to participate in the nomination and appointment of officials....
That these offices occasionally presented candidates to Dr. Schlegelberger who allegedly had a special political merit; Dr. Schlegelberger, as I stated, was always against these suggestions.
Q Did it ever happen that a compromise between the party chancellery of the Ministry of Justice about some particular appointment could not be reached?
A I mentioned already that the party chancellery or before that, the deputy of the Fuehrer occasionally on their part presented candidates for appointment. Dr. Schlegelberger's suggestion usually was in a different direction, because there was usually a long discussion, an extended argument between Schlegelberger and the political offices which I have mentioned, about the question as to what candidate should be appointed for that position. These discussions sometimes took a considerable time. That was particularly delicate and disagreeable in cases of positions which on account of their special importance had to be filled as quickly as possible, as for instance, the position of the President of the District Court of Appeals or of a general prosecutor. Dr. Schlegelberger tried then to find support for his opinion in other offices of the Administration. I know that frequently he spoke to Dr. Lammers, asked him for his support, and pointed out in particular that for objective reasons one could not go on leaving that position vacant. On account of his tenacity Schlegelberger succeeded in almost all of these cases to put his opinion through.
Q Would you give us quite briefly two significant individual cases in that connection.
AAs the first case, I should like to mention the case of the President of the District Court of Appeal, Duerig, in Bamberg. Duerig was a courageous man who criticized the party quite frankly and openly; and never made any secret of his opinion, and that attitude of his was quite well known in the Administration of Justice and also within the party. When the position of President of District Court of Appeals in Bamberg became vacant and had to be filled, Dr. Schlegelberger proposed Dr. Duerig for that position.
The appointment of Dr. Duerig could only take place if and after the political offices, which I have mentioned before, had approved it, but that approval was denied. As I found out, the most essential factor was the hostile attitude of the two Gauleiters in the Wurzberg and Bayreuth district that belonged to the district of the District Court of Appeals, Bamberg. Dr. Schlegelberger got in touch with Dy. Lammers in order to achieve that his suggestion should finally be accepted. The struggle and arguments took several months -- I believe it may have been a year that that position was left vacant; but, in the end, Br. Schlegelberger's suggestion was accepted and Duerig was appointed President of the District Court of Appeals in Bamberg. After he was appointed, of course, he had the greatest difficulties in his district; that is, from the political agencies. He came to see us frequently in Berlin, and when he sat in my anteroom, in order to wait to see Dr. Schlegelberger, he complained about the attacks of the party against him. Schlegelberger, as well as he could, protected him against all these attacks, and during his entire period in office, that is to say the period in office of Schlegelberger, Schlegelberger held him on his post in Bamberg.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Witness, counsel asked you to be very brief in the giving of these illustrations which are being considered only as illustrations supporting your former testimony as to the attitude of Dr. Schlegelberger. The Tribunal hopes that you will be brief when you are giving these illustrative cases.
A I remember various other individual cases, one of which I would like to mention now. I know that on official trips Dr. Schlegelberger always intervened for political officials, always tried whenever he got to various places to straighten out difficulties of that nature and to hold officials in their positions.
Q Didn't you make a mistake with that last sentence. You said he had intervened for political officials. Did you mean to say that?
A If I said that, I made a mistake. He intervened for officials who were attacked from political sides, and he saw to it that these officials remained in their official positions despite these attacks.
Q Do you also happen to know of cases where Schlegelberger fought against intrigues by officials who tried to disturb his known political policy?
A Since the Court has asked me to be as brief as possible, I should like to mention only one brief case which was very impressive because it occurred during the beginning of my activity in Dr. Schlegelherger's office; as a young man who had just come into that office at that time I was very much impressed by it. The political situation in the District of Darmstadt was especially tense. Gauleiter Sprenger did not think to much of the Administration of Justice, and frequently criticized the sentences and the leading officials of the Administration of Justice in that district. The situation became all the more complicated because the two leading officials, the President of the District Court of Appeals and the General Prosecutor, did not display the necessary firmness in dealing with these political offices. Dr. Schlegelherger quite suddenly made a trip with me to Darmstadt in order to straighten out these difficulties. There he found, after a conversation with the President of the District Count of Appeals, that the cause for these difficulties was a senior prosecutor by the name of Krauss, who acted as an informer for the Gauleiter, and told him about the occurrences in the field of the Administration of Justice, and in a manner which tended to cause difficulties. After we returned to Berlin that senior prosecutor was called by telephone to Berlin, to report to Dr. Schlegelberger; and I was ordered to be a witness in that conference between Schlegelberger and Krauss.
Never before or after did I experience that an official was reproached in such a serious, injurious manner for his behavior. On that occasion Dr. Schlegelberger told Krauss if once more he would pass on information to Sprenger against his colleagues Schlegelberger would initiate disciplinary proceedings against him in order to have him removed from office because he would have become untenable.
Q What was Schlegelberger's attitude toward Jewish-halfbreeds and people and officials who had Jewish relatives?
A Schlegelberger had a great deal of understanding for people of mixed descent and people with Jewish relatives. Frequently he tried to protect them against the well known attacks from the party, and he did so by having them transferred from small places, where there were all the difficult conditions of a small town, into a large city where they were less subjected to these attacks. Here also I should like to discuss briefly one case: In the Ministry of Justice we had a Jewish half-breed of the second degree, that is to say a quarter Jew, that was Ministerialrat Dr. Koffta; he was in Dr. Schlegelberger's department. Dr. Schlegelberger kept him in his office until he died, inspite of all the attacks from the party against Koffta. And, when he was seriously ill, he expressed his understanding and sympathy by visiting him frequently in his house.
One has to know the conditions of that time in order to realize what that meant at that time. A man of Jewish descent in a high official position, that already was presenting grave difficulties for his superior; as a Ministerialrat in a Ministry, that presented continuous difficulties and troubles from the party.
Q Did Dr. Schlegelberger in maintaining these principles incure difficulties with political offices, and of what nature were these difficulties?
A Dr. Schlegelberger, as I mentioned, was bound to the approval of the Party Chancellery or the Deputy of the Fuehrer when appointing higher officials. It was obvious that these offices offered extraordinary difficulties when he tried carrying out these principles in his personal policy.
Q Do you happen to know anything about attacks from the press in that connection?
A I know that the administration of justice was continuously attacked in the press, particularly by the Schwarze Corps, the Black Corps, that was the paper of the SS, the periodical of the SS which appeared every week, and frequently published the most serious attacks against the administration of justice; officials, judges, and prosecutors were mentioned by name; they were charged of having displayed an unNational Socialist behavior; their removal from office was demanded, and time and again one could observe that the full documentary evidence of such publications were either incorrect or so much distorted that they did not stand up under scrutiny. I know of an individual case, an Oberlandesgerichtsrat in Cologne - I do not remember the name any more, was attacked and it was found out that at the basis of this article there was just a denunciation of a notorious griper. Schlegelberger also had to obtain a denial of these publications; he got in touch with the various authorities, with other offices, and the corrections which appeared in some cases came very belated or put in a place in the paper where they could hardly be noticed.
Q The proceedings against the Czech Prime Minister Elias, has also been mentioned in these proceedings. The Prosecution takes this case as the proof for the close cooperation between the administration of justice end the Gestapo; could you tell us anything about these proceedings?
A I remember the case Elias quite well. After all I had seen in the Ministry of Justice at that time, I gained the impression that the President of the People's Court, Dr. Thierack, with the Reich Protector, Heydrich, and that behind the back of the Minister, Dr. Schlegelberger, without his knowledge had conspired in order to achieve that end, in that the case Elias, should not be submitted by the Chief Reich Prosecutor but by the Gestapo, that is to say, by an agency outside the administration of justice. I know that Schlegelberger when he was informed about that was quite indignant, and called Dr. Thierack to see him. These attempts were particularly dangerous because the SS Police and Gestapo, for a long time had displayed the tendency to separate the job of the prosecution from the administration of justice and to get it within their domain of power.
Q What individual cases would illustrate the position or the attitude of Schlegelberger to the Party and Party agencies, can you remember?
A Here, also, I should like to mention only one case which is probably designed to characterize the relations of Dr. Schlegelberger to the Party. Reichsleiter Bouhler was in charge of the Secretariat of the Fuehrer, and Dr. Schlegelberger had a rather severe controversy in correspondence wherein Bouhler charged Dr. Schlegelberger that the Ministry of Justice was not directed by him in a National Socialist sense, and he probably also expressed his doubt as to the personal attitude of Dr. Schlegelberger in this matter. I no longer remember what the cause of this controversy may have been, but I believe that it was the following: The Secretariat of the Fuehrer tried to gain influence on the decision of clemency pleas filed for Party members.