DR. BERGOLD: I asked the Court whether I would be allowed to give my view.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, who supplied the high altitude chambers for these experiments?
A The high altitude chambers were supplied by the DVL, they were responsible for the transport of them there. I had no occasion to give my agreement to this because if these experiments were to be held before, a low pressure chamber was very necessary. I had given my agreement on principle and I take full responsibility for that measure.
Q Witness, did you, before the 15th or 16th of April, 1942 report to Milch on these experiments?
A I know that once I had decided to give my consent to these parallel experiments, once, in the Ministry, I reported to a senior officer that these experiments would take place. This was as early as 1941.
Q Which particular senior officer do you mean?
A Whether I reported this to Milch as I thought initially or whether I reported to General Ruedel, Chief of Air Defense I cannot say very precisely now. This was within the usual routine of regular reports, which were made to the chief of the air defense and the Staatssekretaer, and within this, month to month.
Q At the beginning you said that since 1940, the Chief of Air Defense was the most important senior officer; is that right?
A I don't recall the year, but it is quite proble that in 1941, the Chief of Air Defense was present. These reports obliged me to go to the Chief of the Air Defense first. Whether this report was handed on and we went together to the Staats sekretaer, or whether he would let me go alone, or whether he would pass on the report, that changed from case to case.
There were, at the moment, times when he represented the Staatssekretaer, himself.
Q Now, let us return to the letter from Wolffs. What did you cause to be done after that?
-786(a)
A. I passed the letter on to Luftgau 7, to work on it and reach a decision. For, in that area, the experiments were made and they had to make the decision. Whether it was necessary to order Rascher to do this once more or whether the conclusion of the experiments made it unnecessary for Rascher to remain there.
Q. Did you at that time have any knowledge of the details of the experiments?
A. No. All I knew was that the experiments there had been carried out. Nor did I feel any worries at that time, because we had been at them for quite some time, and now they were a bit more extensive, concerning the altitude but I expressly had ordered that the altitude effect should be increased only very slowly and that as few experiments as possible should be made. So I felt no misgivings about this order.
Q. Witness, when did you hear more about these experiments?
A. I heard about the experiments in the middle of May 1942, when Dr. Ruff had a conversation with him in my official department, which was not in the Ministry itself, but in the Tempelhof Airfield. On that occasion, I had another application from Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf, which this time, had not reached directly but came over Milch's offices, and he asked Milch asked for Rascher's command to be extended. Whether I had ordered Ruff to be there, or whether he came on his own initiative, I cannot say. But two matters were discussed on that occasion between us two. Ruff tells me that he had given orders for the low pressure chamber to be removed from Dachau and he had given orders for his collaborator Romberg to conclude the experiments, because supplementary experiments were necessary for the Luftwaffe, and had now been concluded, and also, because Romberg had told him that Dr. Rascher had begun to experiment alone without him, Romberg, with the low pressure chamber. Rascher, it would appear, had a case of death on that occasion.
I thereupon -- I couldn't call it consent, here. I said that it was quite right for him to remove the chamber at once, so that no further independent work could be done. Nothing could happen, and also our experiments had to come to an end anyway. On that occasion, I showed him Wolf's letter, who had asked for the Rascher order to be extended, and said that I was -787(a) opposed to the extension, and I would suggest to the Staatssekretaer not to allow Rascher and his chamber to remain there, because, as far as the Luftwaffe was concerned, no more -
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until 1:30.
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the Court, please rise. The Tribunal is recessed until 1330.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 - 7 Feb 1947) ERIC HIPPKE - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued) BY DR. BERGOLD: (Attorney for defendant Erhard Milch)
Q. Mr. Witness; you spoke this morning of it that when in May 42 Ruff was with you the telegram of Wolf requesting the extension of this command, which had come to you via Milch was subject of that discussion, I believe you said that Ruff spoke to you regarding the fact that Rascher had a case of death in his experimentation on the occasion of his own and secret experiments. Did you report this to Wolf as a certain case?
A. No, I spoke of a case of suspicion, and consequently I told Ruff to come to me immediately in order that I might find out what actually had happened.
Q. In this discussion with Ruff what else happened, or was that the end of it?
A. The essential thing that happened was about two points; on the one had that the chambers should be withdrawn; the second that the tests were sufficient and therefore the experiments were to be concluded. These were the two points as far as I was concerned because I was responsible.
Q. Did Ruff tell you about the results of the experiments the results of his experiments?
A. No. So far as I remember we did not speak about it at this time. He only said that the experiments were sufficient.
Q. Witness, what did you then do as a consequence of this telegram of Wolf's to Milch?
A. I went to State Secretary in order to discuss this telegram, with the thought in mind that regarding further use of the chamber and stating that I did not think Rascher should be further used because our needs for experimentation were now over, and these no longer were needed for the Luftwaffe.
Q. Witness, did you speak with Milch personally at that time or did you approach him in other ways?
A. I went to speak to him personally. There was another point to be talked over besides the conclusion of the high altitude tests; namely, and this was given to me by my office for these purposes, the preliminary low pressure experiments, the distress at sea experiments - the sea distress experiment, as they were called. I wanted to speak to him about these matters; these two matters, the conclusion of high altitude experiments and the planning for sea distress experiments; these were the two points I had in mind. I did not succeed in having this talk with Milch. The Staats Secretaer was so busy that it was impossible, and when I could not report to him personally, as frequently happened, I sent him a memorandum, a written report with the questions listed. In the case of these problems I had not brought up the question of the case of death because in the first place, in my opinion it was not clear whether or not it actually had taken place; and secondly, I also believed that such emornadums which were frequently inserted, the file should not be put down on such a memorandum.
Q. Witness, what about the freezing experiments?
A. The freezing experiment problem had already been a considerable problem to us, even before then; because we had the experience with fliers who at low temperatures fell into the water, despite the fact that they had their warm flyers' clothing, nevertheless in this cold water -- and it really was very cold - that they died. And we had the experience that if they succeeded in staying alive they nevertheless died subsequently despite all the efforts that were then usual and which we made, medicine, warm blankets, etc., they died nevertheless. This was not mainly our problem. And I recall that in the case of ships that sank, The Navy had made the experience that people brought to land who were still alive, subsequently, despite all medical care died.
In other words, we stood - 790(a) here confronted with a riddle -- why did they not recover later; and why did their condition progressively grow worse until they died?
All of these people were unconscious; they were also stiff after they had been in cold water for a considerable length of time, but they were still alive, and without our being able to understand this, they died subsequently.
That was for us a large and new problem. Now, in order to find out why death came and find out what measures of a medical nature we should take in order to save these people - that was our problem. This problem had been worked on exhaustively by physiologists, by clinicians and others and experiments had been made here and they were then under way and these animal experiments which were usually carried out on small animals by Weltz carrying on these experiments. Most of them on guinea pigs and some experiments were made on larger animals but still no experiments on human beings and it was clear to me that in such an important question as this, experiments on human bodies had to be carried out and were indispensable because the human body simply in the relationship to surface end volume has different proportions from those in animal bodies. I wanted, if possible, to dispense with the experiments. I wanted to carry out experiments on large animals and the only animals I could use were monkeys. During that time I discussed this question regarding the use of monkeys with Prof. Struckholt from the Research Institute in Berlin. He, however, assured me that at this time it was impossible to get hold of monkeys in Germany. He, himself, had made efforts to get monkeys for other purposes, primarily for experiments with centrifugal force and I also recollect that he had made experiments with monkeys for he had photographs of them - X-rays how the blood was re-distributed in case of the centrifugal force experiments. This could be seen in the X-rays that were taken daring the course of the experiments.
Q. Pause after each sentence otherwise the technical matters - - the interpreters will be behind.
A He assured me that it was impossible at that time in Germany to get 'hold of apes for this experiment, consequently the planning of such experiments took the same course in high-altitude experiments, only these here, experiments in rather cold water. The preliminary discussions had reached the point where I could submit the plan to the ministry and since I could not report personally this is the explanation for the memorandum, which in the middle of May I presented to the State Secretary namely, Milch. Rascher personally at this time had not reported to me. I do, at any rate, not recall any report by Rascher. That is, in the middle of May.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, I have a request. I ask that -- from my document book, the last page -- I ask that you look at the last page of my document book, the chronological list of the prosecution documents so that the Tribunal will see how far this matter has progressed. We have reached that point in my interrogation of the witness that I have indicated by the intermediate title "High-altitude Esperiments Terminated." I do that in order to point out to the bench that I believe that I have proved that up to this time Milch knew nothing more precisely of these experiments. Witness, please proceed. Rascher then came to you because as you said before, you asked him to?
A Before Rascher turned up at my office I received a second request from Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf that tho lowpressure chambers and Dr. Rascher should be retained for further experiments. This was in the first days of June. This annoyed me considerably. This pressure on the part of tho SS which I could only explain to myself by believing that Rascher on his own initiative had urged this because he was interested in it -- in the direction of his professership at the University it interested him to carry out certain experiments.
Now, at the time when after the previous experiments under Ruff and Romberg he had found out so much in this field, that he could now work and carry out experiments alone. I think he must have laid a great deal of importance on this because the scientific individual was 793A important to him and to prove he must function not only as an assistant but as his own boss and to prove that he had solved such medical problems himself.
Q. Witness, how did you receive this letter from Wolf?
A. Again it was a letter that was submitted to me through Statesecretary Milch.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, I ask you now to turn to the Prosection's Exhibit No. 89, 1st Prosecution Document Book 5-A, page 24 of the Document Book. Milch letter to Hippke of 4 June 1942. 24 in my Document your Honor. Document No-261. Page 24. I ask permission to show this document to the witness so that he may see it. Can you recall ever having received such a communication, witness?
A. Yes, I did receive such a letter.
Q. Was this accompanied by Wolff's telegram or request?
A. That I do not know.
Q. How did you understand Wolff's communication to you? I ask your opinion of what - did you understand it as an order or as a - - ?
A. No, it wasn't an order. It was a proposal because the German word "soll" which means "shall". It could have been phrased as a command but in the German phraseology here it isn't phrased as a command. At any rate, I always construed it as a proposal and suggestion.
Q. Witness, then did you do what Milch suggested? To give Rascher further orders or then did you send the low-pressure chamber back to Dachau?
A. No, I did not carry that out because my point of view was that for the Luftwaffe no further work of this sort was necessary in this field. At any rate, not at this time, for this reason I did not carry it out. I certainly under no case should have done it before Rascher had reported to me because we were not sure whether this was or was not really a new proposition or whether it was simply a warning in connection with the previous suggestion that the length of time is between the two is so short that that could have simply been a second supplement to the first proposal -794(a) so first of all, I waited.
It was clear to me that the needs of the Luftwaffe had been met and so there was no reason for us to give them a chamber which was only there for our own purposes but not to satisfy the scientific efforts and special interests of Rascher.
Q. Witness, when did Rascher come to you?
A. In the first days of June, that is when it must have been. Shortly after I asked Rascher to appear, he did.
Q. Please describe this talk with Rascher.
A. It probably started in this fashion. I said to him, "Rascher, Dr. Ruff tells me that you have begun to make experiments on your own with the low pressure chamber without Dr. Romberg, and he also suspected you had a case of death during those experiments. Did you carry out experiments on your own intitiative with that chamber and did you have a fatality?" He answered, me, "Yes, I did want to make a few supplementary experiments, but at that time the chamber was taken away from me." I asked him, "Did you have fatalities or a fatality?" He replied, "No." Then I asked him, "Did really nothing happen?" He answered this question with, "No." Then I said, "Rascher, then everything went off very well?" I can remember my very words, "Everything went off very well?" And he answered with a very military "Yes, indeed." This military affirmation I regarded as an official report from him, and I believe that I could rely on it. Then I immediately asked, "Did you bring your report with you?" Whereupon he replied, "The report is not yet completed; moreover, the Reichsfuehrer So had orders that the report should first be shown to him because he had made these people available, and it was under direction." Thereupon I said that it was very well with me, but I must have the report. "To what height did you then proceed?" That was important from the practical point of view. Whereupon he replied, "Up to 21 Kilometers." And then I asked him, "That is the full height of the chamber, why do you still want the low pressure chamber?"
There were others who wanted the chamber. He said, "The experiments at utmost heights don't seem to have been completed yet." Whereupon I said, "But Dr. Ruff told me they were sufficient. You are not going to get that chamber again." Thereupon we went into a discussion of the question of freezing, and he said that he had been ordered by the Reichsfuehrer SS to begin the freezing experiments. This question was already under consideration. Now it had become pressing, and they wanted a practical solution of it. I was also clear as to the necessity. In other words, I had to 796a Decide at this moment, and in view of the importance of the question, I called on my expert and spoke with him and Rascher together, discussing this question, whom we should put in scientific direction of these experiments.
I personally was thinking of Professor Weltz, who had made the animal experiments. But in the discussion that then took place ----- I believe that it was BeckerFreyseng who was working on this question---- the expert said that it wasn't important to have a theoretician like Weltz in charge of these experiments, but rather a practical person; because my point of view in all these freezing experiments was to ascertain the effectiveness of protective clothing and affording warmth to the fliers who were it and which was then being tested to ascertain whether the experiences we had already had from the animal experiments, namely that the rapid application of heat was, if not the only, at any rate the best means. He wanted to find out whether these experiences also applied to human beings. A researcher who filled both of these prerequisites, namely, both regarding protective clothing --- it was a question here of gas pockets built into the clothing, which developed a foam-----and also a man who had the practical experience in treating sea distress where shipwrecked persons or fliers were treated and taken care of. Professor Holzloehmer seemed to be the best person for this, because he was the most experienced worker in both these fields. As my expert had explained to me on this occasion, he had taken part in the development of protective clothing and had an experimental station that had worked on this, and moreover had practical experience in saving shipwrecked persons in the North Sea--- in other words, j797 practical experience.
I readily perceived that Professor Holzloehner was particularly good for the direction of these whole experiments, and as a supervisor of them better than Professor Weltz, who was simply a laboratory man and a theoretician. Consequently I took Rascher to Holzloehner. Other names were also mentioned. At any rate we decided on Holzloehner and instructed him to get in touch with him in order to find out if he wanted this task. After some length of time Holzloehner visited me and received his statement of policy from me, the same general directive that had been issued in the case of former experiments, with one exception, namely, the easing of 797a pain.
I was of the opinion that people, even if they were dressed and were put in cold water and their muscles became rigid, slowly but inevitably they must feel pain, and it was important for me to combat that. Here to I demanded selfexperiment as well of Rascher as also of Holzloehner.