If I am to fulfill the demands which you present to me, you must be prepared to agree with me and my assistants, that the term "protected factory" is to be restricted in France to what is really necessary and feasible by reasonable men, and the protected factories are not, as the Frenchmen think, protected against any extraction of labor from them for use in Germany. It is indeed very difficult for me to be presented to French eyes as a German of whom they may say: Sauckel is here stopped from acting for German armament: the term "protected factory" means in France nothing but that the factory is protected against Sauckel. This is what the Frenchmen think, and they cannot be blamed for it; for they are Frenchmen and before their eyes the Germans disagree in their opinions and actions. To what degree the creation of protected works is expedient and necessary at all is not for me to decide. I can only state how the effect of creating them touches the work expected to be done by me. On the other hand, I have grounds for hoping that I shall be just able to wiggle through, first by using my old corps of agents and my labor executive, and secondly by relying upon the measures which I was lucky enough to succeed in obtaining from the French Government. In a discussion lasting five to six hours I have exerted from M. Laval the concession that the death penalty will be threatened for officials endeavoring to sabotage the flow of labor supply and certain other measures. Believe me, this was very difficult. It required a hard struggle to get this through. But I succeeded and now in France, Germans ought to take really severe measures, in case the French Government does not do so. Don't take it amiss, I and my assistants in fact have sometimes seen things happen in France that I was forced to ask, Is there no respect any more in France for the German lieutenant with his 10 men. For months every word I spoke was countered by the answer: But what do you mean, MR. Gauleiter, you know there is no executive at our disposal; we are not able to take action in France! This I have been answered over and over again. How then, am I to regulate the labor supply with regard to France. There is only one solution: the German authorities have to cooperate with each other, and if the Frenchmen despite all their promises do not act, then we Germans must make an example of one case, and by reason of this law if necessary put Prefect or Burgomaster against the wall, if he does not comply with the rules; otherwise no Frenchman at all will be dispatched to Germany.
During the last quarter the belief in a German victory and in all propaganda statements which we were still able to make, has sunk below zero, and today it is still the same. I rather expect the new French ministers, especially Henriet, will act ruthlessly; they are very willing and I have a good impression on them. The question is only how far they will be able to impress their will on the subordinated authorities. Such is the situation in France. In Italy the situation is exactly the same, perhaps rather worse. We have no executive, we are told, and the Italian nation is morally so hopelessly corrupted that only pure force gives any hope for success.
Moreover, I am insulted, and this grieves me most, by the statement that I was responsible for the European partisan nuisance. Even German authorities reproached me thus, although they were the last ones who have the right to make such statements. I wish to protest against this slander, and I can prove that it is not I who is responsible. From the General District of Kiev, and this from the town itself and the near surroundings I extracted 100,000 men for labor, and in Kiev there were no partisans. The Kiev district was the quietest of all. In 1942 and 1943 I hardly extracted one man from the Minsk District, and was not able to do so,since I was to a great extent barred from this district. The Minsk district, however, was the chief partisan area, and even a Gauleiter has been murdered there. If there had been no measures of labor supply, many more partisans would be in action than there are now; for there would be many more unemployed among the foreign nations. These countries are indeed not able to exist unless they produce the things which Europe wants from them, and since the planning of production for the whole of Europe is done exclusively and solely by Germany, all these nations are indebted to Germany alone and to nobody else for the fact that they have bread and work. The measures increasing the labor supply for Germany and the occupied countries therefore has the effect of giving useful work to gangs of unemployed men. If this had not been done, the gangs would have become partisans. Furthermore, partisan warfare has appeared in every Eastern revolution for centuries and Stalin did nothing but incorporate into his strategic plans in a masterly way the assistance offered by partisans of the Polish, Ukrainian, and other areas known from history.
Similar considerations apply to France. I have been answered that such things never happened in France, that it was nothing but a consequence of German labor measures that these bands made their appearance there. To which I can only reply that those who say we obviously forget the whole of France's history, what happened in the 1870-71 war. Then too franc-tireurs operated in France. Even if there were no labor measures, the English would drop arms from their planes and would certainly find unemployed willing to pick them up.
Indeed, we too commit mistakes, this is only human. I only intended to acquaint you, Air Marshal, with the actual difficulties used by enemy and German authorities alike to oppose the German labor measures. It goes without saying that the ideal solution would consist in transferring the whole of manufacturing in these countries and, as the saying goes, in bringing the work to the workers. Numerous German authorities, even such as had no connections with economics and labor supply, inquired of me, why do you fetch these people to Germany at all? You make trouble for this area and render our existence there more difficult. To which I can only reply, It is my duty to insist on it that labor supply comes from abroad, There is no longer a German labor supply. That the latter is exhausted I already proved by my ill-famed manifesto of April of last year. But I am not able to transfer the German soil to France. Nor can I transfer the German traffic to France nor the German mines. Nor can I transfer the German Armament works which still have to release part of their workers, if fit for war service, nor their machines.
Here alone 2,500,000 men are in question as has been calculated in the Fuehrer conference. This is the flower of German workers who go to the front and must go there. I have always been one of those who says: if only energetic measures are applied in fetching labor from abroad, then we want to release in God's name everybody from armaments work whom we can, in order to strengthen our companies. The 1st and 7th Armoured Divisions are frequently mentioned in the War Report. I can only tell you that the number of soldiers killed in battle in some Thuringian villages has surpassed for some time already the number of soldiers killed in the World War, by twice that amount. This I mention in my capacity as Gauleiter.
It is for this reason that we have to do our duty. The best kind of German men, and men in the prime of life, have to go to the front, and German women of more than 50 years of age cannot replace them. Therefore I have to continue to go to France, Belgium, Holland and Italy, and there will be a time again when I shall go to Poland and extract workers there as fit and as many of them as I can got. In this circle I only wish to urge that you spread it around that I am not quite the insane follow that I have been said to be during the last quarter of a year. Even the Fuehrer has been told so. It goes without saying that just this slander has had the effect that I was unable to deliver in the last quarter at least 1 1/2 million workers whom I would have been able to deliver as long ago as last year, had the atmospheric conditions been better. It was due to that "artificial atmospheric screen", that they did not arrive. I am aware that they simply have to arrive this year. My duty to the Fuehrer, the Reich Marshal, Minister Spear, and towards you, gentlemen, and to agriculture is apparent, and I shall fulfill it. A start has been made, and as many as 202,000 new workers have arrived, and I hope and am convinced to be able to deliver the bulk of the order. How the labor is to be distributed will then have to be decided according to the needs of the whole of German Industry, and I shall always be prepared to keep the closest contact with you, Gentlemen, and to charge the labor exchanges and the district labor exchanges with intimately collaborating with you. Everything is functioning if such collaboration exists."
MR. DENNEY: Then in reply to this we have a speech by the defendant:
"I now proceed to the important question where we will still be able to get greater amounts of laborers from you, and without a doubt the answer is, from abroad. I have asked Mr. Schieber to make a short appearance here in order to give his opinion on Italy. I agree with your statement, Gauleiter, that it is only the bad organization of our work abroad which is responsible for the fact that you can't do your job. Too many people meddle in your work. If someone tells you, there is no executive in France and Italy, I consider it an impudence, a foolish and stupid lie uttered by people who either are unable to think or consciously state an untruth. This kind of person is not interested in giving a clear lead in this respect and in analyzing the situation, probably because they are not smart enough. In this way, However, your work is rendered more difficult or frustrated, and all armament work at the same time. For we have it before our eyes what close relations exist between the situation in the occupied countries and that in the armaments industry. A more foolish policy can hardly be cancelled. in case the invasion of France begins and succeeds only to a certain degree, then we shall experience a rising by partisans such as we have never experienced either in the Balkans or in the East, not because this world have happened in any case, but only because we made it possible by not dealing with them in the right manner. Four whole age groups have grown up in France, men between 18 and 23 years of age, who are therefore at that ago when young people moved by patriotism or seduced by other people are ready to do anything which satisfies their personal hatred against us--and of course they hate as. These men ought to have been called up in age groups and dispatched to Germany; for they present the greatest manger which threatens us in case of invasion. I am firmly convinced and have said several times; if invasion starts, sabotage of all railways, works, and supply bases will be a daily occurrence, and then it will be really the case that our forces are no longer available to survey the execution of our orders within the country, but they will have to fight at the front, thereby leaving in their rear the much more dangerous enemy who destroys their communications, etc.
If one had shown the nailed fist and a clear executive intention, a churchyard peace would reign in the rear of the front at the moment the uproar starts. This I have emphasized so frequently, but still nothing is happening, I am afraid. For if one intends to start to shoot at that moment, it will be too late for it; then we have no longer the men at our disposal to kill off the partisans. In the same way, we are aware of the fact that their supply of arms in the west is rather ample since the English are dropping them from planes. I consider it an idiotic statement if you, Gauleiter, are accused of having made those men into partisans. As soon as you arrive, the men run away to protect themselves from being sent to Germany. Then they are away, and since they do not know how to exist, they automatically fall into the hands of the partisan leaders; but this is not the consequence of the fact that you wish to fetch them, but of the fact that your opposite number, the executive is not able to prevent their escape. You simply cannot act differently.
"The main crux of the problem is tho fact that your work is made so extremely difficult, and this is why you cannot deliver the 4,000,000 workers. As long as it is feasible for these men to get away and not be caught by tho executive, as long as the men are able not to return from leave and not be found out on the other side, I do not think Party Comrade Sauckel, that you will have a decisive success through employing your special corps. The men even then will be whisked away unless quite another authority and power is on the watch, and this can only be the army itself. The army alone can exercise effective executive. If some say they cannot do this kind of work, this is incorrect for within France there are Training Forces stationed in every hole and corner town and every place which could all be used for this work. If this would be done in time, the partisan nuisance would not emerge, just as it would not have done in the East if we had only acted in time. Once i had this task at Stalingrad. At Taganrog there were then 65,000 men of the Army, and at the front one lieutenant and six men were actually available for each kilometer, and they would have been only too glad if they had 20 to 30 for their assistance. In the rear there great masses of men who had retreated in time and squatted down in tho villages, and who now were available neither for fighting at the front nor for fighting the partisans. I am aware that I am placing myself in opposition to my own side, but I have seen such things happen everywhere, and can find no remedy but that the army should assert itself ruthlessly. You, Gauleiter Sauckel, the Reich Marshal and the Contral Planning Board ought to report on this question to the Fuehrer, and then he ought to decide at the same time on the duties of the Military Commanders.
There ought to be orders of such lucidity that they could not be misunderstood, and it is then that things will be in order. It never can be too late to do so, but these duties and this work will be more difficult to perform with every passing day. The same applies to Italy as well."
And then Schiever speaks:
"The Gauleiter sometime ago discussed this question in detail with General Leiers, and they succeeded in reaching quite a comprehensive agree 238(a) ment.
In my opinion there are still a considerable number of people in Italy who could be extracted there, especially if it is possible, which is not for me to decide, to increase vastly the method, so much recommended by your collaborators of transferring whole firms. It was only a few days that 200 to 400 non were transferring together with very little difficulty. I am favor ing this method especially for tho reason tint in my opinion it will nip in the bud any tendency to take to the woods and to become partisans. Where the Plenipotentiary for Labor transfers the entire personnel of a firm, this personnel is being transferred as an entity this also presupposes the existence of some human solidarity between the members of the entity. The Gauleiter will meet even more difficulties in the transfer of these Italians than he has to overcome in France because the Italians have extraordinarily strong family ties. We notice this fact more all the time. One has to meet these difficulties half-way. On the whole we of the production branch in Italy are quite willing to extract laborers from Italy. Our collaboration with your office: is functioning without friction. We attach special importance to our desire that these workers for whom we no longer have work in Italy, ought not to be left to loaf about for too long, but ought to be caught and sent to Germany. Outside the protected factories, too, there still remains in Italy a relatively vast reservoir of labor, and if this reservoir is drawn upon in the way arranged by the Plenipotentiary for Labor by the poeple from the armaments authority, and by our special commissioner, if especially the problem of transfer of wages is solved, I consider tho transfer of a nice amount of labor from Italy as being quite possible, I should be glad, however, if right from the beginning any discussion by offices concerned or not concerned with it, about the possible consequences of the action should be prohibited; such a discussion could only disturb the peaceful development of production in Italy.
"SAUCKEL: I wish to insist on combing out the protected factories in the future also for the protected factories are working like a suction pump; and since it is known everywhere in Italy and France that every worker if 239(a) he works in a protected factory is protected against any attempt of mine to extract him, it is only too natural that the men are pouring into these factories.
How difficult my task becomes thereby is proved by the following fact. I intended to extract from Italy a million workers within the quarter ending may 30th. hardly 7,000 arrived in the two months which expired so far. This is indeed the difficulty. The bulk enters the protected factories, and only the chaff remains for my purpose to send them to Germany. At least I hope to accomplish that with regard to larger enterprises as tho number of protected factories is restricted in Italy, that is, the number of protected factories, will not be further increased.
On the proceeding page, the quarter reading "May 30th" should read "March 30th" "SAUCKEL:
This indeed is the decisive question, the one we are dealing with now. If half of the program for four million workers to be brought to Germany, this means two million , cannot be fulfilled, the employment of labor in Germany will fall off this year. The more useful workers however, are in France, and of course in Italy too, employed in the protected factories. Therefore, if I an not to touch the protected factories which are situated in these countries, this will have the effect that the loss valuable workers instead of the more valuable type will arrive in Germany. And here we have to ponder about what is in fact more important and expedient. If we give up using these people in Germany, where we effectively rule the factories, where moreover, we keep to a different labor discipline and reach better labor results than in France proper, then we give up the valuable kind, and then I shall only be able to transport to Germany the less valuable kind of people who still can be found on the streets of France or Italy,or people like waiters, hairdressers, small folk from tailor shops, etc.
"MILCH: What is the percentage of protected factories in Italy compared with the whole of Italian Labor?
SCHIEBER: I think 14, but I have not got the figures here.
"MILCH: Would not the following method be better? We could take under 240(a) German administration the entire food supply for the Italians and tell then:
only he gets any food who either works in a protected factory or goes to Germany:
"SAUCKEL: True, the French worker in France is better nourished than the German worker is in Germany, and the Italian worker too, even if he doesn't work at all , is better nourished in the part of Italy occupied by us than if he works in Germany. This is why I asked the German food authorities over and over again to improve also the food of the German worker introducing the "factory sandwich." When I am in Paris of course I go to Maxim's. There one can experience miracles of nourishment. He still thinks that in these countries only very rich men can go to Maxim's, are well provided with food. Thereupon I sent my assistants to the Paris suburbs, to the estaminets and lunch restaurants and was told that the Frenchmen who eat there did not feel the shortage caused by the war to any degree comparable with what our nation has to experience. The average French citizen too can still buy everything he wishes.
"Interruption: this is still more so in so all places.
"Yes. Moreover, the Frenchman can pay for what he can get. Therefore he has no reason for wishing to go to Germany in order to get better food. Thus unfortunately is the case.
MILCH: Is there nothing we can do? True, we might not be able to control the distribution to the customer, but we ought to be able to intervene at an earlier stage of distribution.
"KOERNER: he have requested from France really immense amounts of food; these requests have always been fulfilled; often after some pressure, but they have been fulfilled.
"MILCH : But there is a simple remedy; let us cease supplying the troops from Germany, but tell them to provide the food for themselves from Franco. Then in a few weeks they will have everything eaten up, and then we can start distributing the food to the Frenchmen.
"KOERNER: In France there still as for the time being a rationing system.
The Frenchmen and his ration card in which he receives the minimum. The rest he provides in other ways, partly by receiving food parcels which we cannot touch at all. Every year we increase our food demands to the French Government who always satisfied them, though very frequently yielding to pressure, and in proportion to the harvest results, were they good or bad. In Italy the situation is that food is not rationed at all. The Italians can buy and eat what he wants, and since an Italian has always money and deals in the Black Market, he is in a much better situation than our German worker who practically has nothing but what he get on his card.
"MILCH: But don't we even send food to Italy?
"KOERNER: We are exchanging certain goods.
"SAUCKEL: Moreover we are now at the point that the families of French and Italian workers are no longer in a better position owing to the money transfer if their bread-winning members are working in Germany than if they remain abroad; now nothing remains to induce them to go to Germany.
"MILCH: And the second question is this: will it be possible at all to catch and transfer the 80% who are not employed in protected factories considering the lack of a so-called executive and divergence of opinions with regard to that problem."
There seems to be some variation here, your Honor. If we may have a moment we will see if we can clear it up.
THE PRESIDENT: It's so near recess time, if you would like to do it during that time --
MR. DENNEY: Very good, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: The tribunal will recess until one thirty.
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the courtroom will arise. The Tribunal will recess until 1330 hours.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours)
242(a) AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 7 January, 1947.)
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honorsplease, with reference to the 53rd meeting of the Central Planning Board, which we were discussing, there seems to have been some slight error in the translation, so we will suspend with the reading of that at the bottom of page 1816 of German original, which is page 12 of Your Honors' Document Book 3--A, Exhibit 48A in evidence. We are endeavoring to have the proper pages made and delivered to defense counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: I think you misspoke. It is the 54th meeting? is it not?
MR. DENNEY: I am sorry. Yes? Your Honor? it is the 54th meeting. We will have those pages from there on restencilled and retranslated and offer them at a later time. However? the part as far as we have gone is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Where does it stop?
MR. DENNEY: On Page 12 of Book A, just after the first Sauckel speech? which is the first speech above the notation 1824 on the lefthand margin.
Now? the Exhibit 5, about which there was so much trouble? has finally been redone and retranslated. This is from Document Book 1-A, and because of the difficulty in the pages, it now contains nine pages, which we will submit to Your Honors for each of your document books. As a matter of convenience we have labelled the pages 14-A through I, and respectfully request that Your Honors insert these instead of Pages 14 through 18 which you presently have in your document book 1--A. These are 14-A through I, and we have put the pages on each one of the papers which Your Honors have. These will be substituted for the present Exhibit 5 in evidence which appears in Your Honors' Document Book 1--A. We believe that we have sufficiently covered the background material with reference to this so that it will not be necessary to read from this document.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you tell me offhand that the pages are for which these are to be substituted?
MR. DENNEY: Yes? sir; 14, 15, 16, 17, 17-A, 17-B, and 18. The reason we did it this way is because some of these pages had to be inserted in the middle and we thought it was easier.
Now directing Your Honors' attention to the results of the 54th meeting of the Central Planning Board which appear -- or rather, the results of the 53rd meeting, which we mentioned just to call Your Honors' attention to them - they appear in Document Book B Page 37. These are the results of the 53rd meeting, which has already been covered. That was the meeting held 16 March, Your Honors' attention is directed to Page 40, a rather impressive list of people who were in attendance at the meeting.
Then in Document Book A, Page 38, at the bottom of the page, there is a note on a Hitler conference Document Book 3-A Page 3* at the bottom of the page there is a note on the Hitler conference, which was prepared by Saur and seen by Speer. The conference was held on the 5th of March, a few days after the meeting which we have just referred to. This note was prepared on the 6th of March, and the defendant was at the conference. The note provides:
"Told the Fuehrer of the Reich Marshal's wish for the further utilization of the production power of prisoners of war by giving the direction of the Stalag, that is the camp, to the SS, with the exception of the English and the Americans. The Fuehrer considers the proposal good and has asked Colonel Von Belo* to arrange matters accordingly."
MR. DENNEY: The next reading of a document occurs in Document Book No. 2.
THE PRESIDENT: May I interrupt you, Mr. Denney,
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Was this the first date at which the camps were turned over to the SS?
MR. DENNEY: This is the first date that we have any note of so far as these people are concerned, Your Honor. These camps that I refer to here it is submitted are the lator camps. These are not the concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: That clears it up.
MR. DENNEY: No, no, the concentration camps at all times were under the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: That is what I understood.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: And the stalags refer only to labor camps?
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir, in this instance, and the word "stalag" is used for any kind of camp, a prisoner of war camp, and obviously here the labor camps also apply, and the prisoner of war camps; that is where they are getting it, and that they do accept the American and the English, they do except those and all the others, yes.
The Document No. 1297, which appears at page 65, which is in Document book 2-B, this will become Exhibit No. 53, page 65 in Document Book 2-B, is a letter of 9 March 1944, Sauckel to Dr. Lammers.
DR. MILCH: It is not clear as to what the German designation is?
MR. DENNEY: I believe you will find that at page 111 of the German book. Do you have it Dr. Milch?
MR. DENNY: This letter is dated, "Berlin 8 March 1944." It is written from Sauckel, the general Plenipotentiary for Labor, and to the Reich Minister and Chief of the Reich Chancellory, Dr. Lammers. It reads: "Your Excellency, Reich Minister:
I have the privilege of informing you that in spite of the greatest difficulties, in the period from 1 January until 6 March of this year, inclusive, altogether 303 124 now - i.e. not previously introduced into the labor market nonfluctuating laborers have been assigned to the German war economy.
This figure includes 89 390 German men and women 164 096 foreign workers 49 638 prisoners of war.
The German workers are persons discharged from the Wehrmacht, and other formations, newly recruited workers, women who were not gainfully employed before, youths who are employed for the first time, and finally persons who heretofore were independent.
(signed) Fritz Sauckel."
The next is the document NOKW 017, which appears in Document Book 2-C. I believe it is the final document in that book. It begins in Your Honors' book at page 110 of Document Book 2-C, and in the German translation it begins at page 182. This is offered as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 54. This is a copy of a speech made by the defendant in his capacity as Chief of the Jaegerstab. The Court will also bear in mind that he was also chairman, as well as Geuleiter, at the conference with Air Force engineers and Chief Quartermasters on 25 March 1944. The speech is very long and I will only read parts of it into the record. On page 110, beginning:
"Field Marshal Milch: Gentlemen. I welcome you. I have called you together here in order to discuss with you questions of importance for our German defense." And then dropping down to the end of the first paragraph, the last full sentence but one: " -- We do have in our employ today approximately 60% foreigners, and 40% Germans, whereby one has to take into consideration that the 'women work in the factories only half a day. Therefore, the ratio of Germans to foreigners become considerably more unfavorable. The ratio is gradually approaching 90% foreigners with 10% German managers The rest of the Germans are concentrated in development factories and the like."
The next quotation appears on page 113, at page 5 of the original speech. I don't know -- the full paragraph starts on that page with the word "The Jaegerstab." "The Jaegerstab is made up as follows: The direction is in the hands of Reich Minister Speer and myself." I don't think we have to go into any further statement by the defendant to the effect that he was along with Speer, the head of the Jaegerstab, and, I would like to bring to the Court's attention something that appears at the very top of page 6 of the original, which appears on page 114 of Your Honor's text.
"The evacuation under ground will be in the hands of SS Gruppenfuehrer Hammler." It is the heading with that quotation following: "The evacuation underground will be in the hands of SS Gruppenfuehrer Hammler," and Mr. King will come forward to present the Jaegerstab part of the case which will follow, and in reference to that it will be apparent why that was made.
Then at page 7 of the original, and at page 115 of Your Honors' Document Book, Milch when speaking about how these Jaegerstab tours are made by himself and his staff when going to the various plants, speaks as follows. The sentence starts out, Mr. Interpreter, "On the spot."
"On the spot the individual gentlemen are then told -- supported by the combined authority of the State, the Wehrmacht, and the party, that is, Sauer and me, Speer is unfortunately still on sick leave, otherwise he would also be present." Sauer is not in the Army. Speer is not in the Army. Sauer was deputy to Milch in the Jaegerstab, and was also a man who was in charge of an armament program on a large schedule for the Army and the Navy in the years preceding this.
Then at the bottom of page 8 of the original. Sentence at the beginning of the paragraph. "Then there is still the human factor" it should be, Dr. Milch.