Q Witness, was it possible for a general to resign in Germany at all?
A No, it certainly was not, during the war.
Q Witness, is it known to you that there were factories in which a General Field Marshal too could not enter without special papers?
A Every plant, and of course I can only answer for air force factories, could only be entered with a special pass, this special so-called "red pass," which the Field Marshal and I had, entitled us, within such plants, to enter into secret production shops and development workshops. There was a special endorsement on this card the color of which was different from the color of the cards of other people who had permission to enter the factory. These passes had to be shown at all times and I cannot recollect a single case where I succeeded in getting into the plants without such a pass.
Q Can you remember that near Regensburg there was a plant which required yet another special pass - an additional pass?
AAt Regensburg. Do you mean Messerschmitt? Oh, yes, the Messerschmitt Works at Obertraubling. That was what I reported the other day, where this large aircraft was being manufactured, near the Autobahn from Munich to Augsburg and Stuttgart, the air force camp at Leipheim, and it happened actually oh one occasion that an officer who was driving over the Autobahn and who had come to a halt, and was missing at the airport, was shot by a sentry after he had been halted three times. A German officer. Large posters had been erected which were drawing attention to the fact that from this point halting or stopping was not permitted.
Q What about the physical condition of the Field Marshal in Spring 1945?
A. According to the reports which I received through Colonel Petersen, who was often in my office, and District 7 the Field Marshal had a very serious car accident in the Autumn of 1944 and he had been extremely sick in bed and was limping on crutches, as Colonel Petersen told me. He was no longer in active service and was comparatively 2331a badly hurt.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, I have no further questions to this witness.
MR. DENNEY: I may have one or two questions,.Your Honor, not many But may we have a recess so that I can look at the --
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Witness, do you recall my questioning you on 11 March?
A Yes, I do.
Q Do you remember I asked you if you attended a meeting addressed by the defendant which was held in Berlin on 25 March 1944?
A Yes, the one that was addressed to the fleet engineers and quartermasters.
Q Yes. How many people were at that Meeting?
A There might have been about fifty to sixty people. It was in the great hall of the Air Ministry, in the so-called Hermann Goering Hall.
Q And do you remember that I asked you whether he said anything about "there is no international law" at that meeting?
A Yes, I do.
Q And your answer was no?
A That's right.
Q And I asked you whether or not you had heard anything about how many different dialects were spoken by the various employees in the factories?
A Factories? Dialects? You mean languages, don't you?
Q Languages, yes.
A In the flak batteries you mean?
Q No, in the factories, Luftwaffe factories.
A Oh, I see, factories, yes.
Q Do you remember that I asked you this question: "You didn't hear him say anything about how many different dialects were spoken by the various employees of the factory?", and you answered "No?"
A I do not remember this last question. At the time we did not speak about the various languages spoken in the factories.
Q Then I asked you this question: "Nothing in the speech so far as you recall to indicate that there there any foreign workers working for you?"
and you answered, "We, the question of labor and workers was not so important at this conference." Do you remember that?
A Yes, I do. At that meeting the labor question mas not so important because the question was from the various supply points of the Luftwaffe which had been taken care of by the quartermasters of the Luftgaus and by the engineers to get spare parts which already belonged to the troop for use in aircraft production, in order to complete planes that were incompleted at the time.
Q Did he say anything about the hours of work there?
A Yes, he did. We generally worked from eight to nine hours.
Q From eight to nine hours?
A Yes, and during special programs this was increased sometimes, and in the Jaegerstab the number of working hours was increased considerably.
Q But how much did you hear him talk about, so far as working hours were concerned, on that day?
AAt that meeting you mean?
Q Yes, we are still talking about the same meeting.
A Well, I can't remember. I can't recall that the working hours were discussed there.
Q Did you hear him say anything about a special Courts-Martial that he had?
A I did know that he had a Courts-Martial; however, whether that point was discussed during the meeting, I don't know.
Q Well, you have got a pretty good memory for what happened at all these other meetings. Do you recall what happened here?
A Yes; however, I do not remember all those details.
Q Well, let me refresh your recollection. On the first page you said, "We do have in our employ today approximately 60% foreigners and 40% Germans and one has to take into consideration that women work in the factories one half a day. Therefore, the ratio of Germans to foreigners becomes considerably more unfavorable. The ratio is gradually appreaching 90% foreigners with 10% German managers. The rest of the Germans arc concentrated in development of factories and the like."
Do you remember now that he spoke about foreign laborers there?
A Yes, I do. He used this as an introduction in order to represent seriousness of the situation, which was very acute at the time.
Q And then a little later, on page eight: "In brief, the people arrived there and are put to work there. If any doubts exist as to whether a request is justified where the people are not requested by numbers but as electricians, blacksmiths, fitters, turners, as unskilled laborers, as foreigners; then this is settled. If the results show that the request for people is not justified, then, the matter is referred to a commission. This commission examines the facts within 48 hours. If it becomes apparent that dirty dealings are going on, a special Courts-Martial was called into session and handed down a quick decision."
Do you remember when he said that?
A Yes; by that he wanted to express the fact that the unjustified requests by factories... We had those repair shops, which have already been mentioned; and they also had labor requests. And I can only understand it in this connection.
Q. And if people did wrong things, they would show them up before a court?
A. That is right. He said they would be placed before special court if they would request more laborers.
Q. Then if people did do wrong things they were put before courts, weren't they?
A. Yes; however I can not recall that in such cases that the Field Marshal's courts were ever in session. But as I said once before, as far as I can remember, this court only dealt with cases of corruption which occurred in the Luftwaffe, itself, or in connection with the industrialists. Industrialists were also convicted by this court.
Q. Then, still on page eight, he said: "The normal work-week in our industry is 72 hours." Do you recall that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. That is a little more than eight or nine, isn't it?
A. Yes, it is. At this time, already -- that is, since the first of March:
-we had been under the jurisdiction of the Jaegerstab -- the Jaegerstab had increased the working hours.
Q. Then a little later, he said: "Then there is still the human factor. We often had considerable difficulty with the human factor. Fluctuation there is very considerable. The quota of the Luftwaffe and the distribution of manpower was constantly lowered; that foreigners run away, them don't keep a contract; there are difficulties with Frenchmen, Italians, Dutch. The prisoners of war are partly unruly and fresh, people are also supposed to be carrying on sabotage. These elements can not be made more efficient by small means. They are just not handled strictly enough. If the decent foremen would sock one of these unruly people because the fellow doesn't work, then the situation would soon change. International Law cannot be observed here. I have asserted myself very strongly and, with the help of Sauer, I have presented the point of view very strongly that the prisoners with the exception of the English and Americans, should be taken away from the military authorities. The soldiers are not in a position, as experience has shown, to cope with those fellows who know all the answers.
I shall take very strict measures here and shall put such a prisoner of war before my courtsmartial if he has committed sabotage or refused to work. I will have him hanged right in his own factory. I am convinced that that will not be without effect."
Do you recall when he said that?
A. On that date very strong words were used. I do not recall in detail all these expressions. However, it is quite possible that they occur.
Q. And his neck was red and he was mad...and everybody just laughed it off?
A. Yes.
Q. And then, over a little farther, he said, on page twenty-two:"In saying this, I do not even consider the fact that the workshops have first-class personnel, whereas we in the Luftwaffe armament industry have Russian, French prisoners of war, Dutch, and members of 32 other nations. The obtaining of interpreters alone presents a big difficulty there. I would be very grateful if the gentlemen who are concerned with this could carry out something in this field and succeed. Saving can be achieved only if every factory has one type and actually develops this methodically." Didn't strike you at the time that he mentioned that you had 32 nations represented in addition to Russians, French and Dutch?
A. Well, I really can not recall any details, and the expression "thirty-two nations" I can not recall either. I can't remember that it was used, and I don't see how these could come together.
Q. Well, this was the man who was Generalluftzeugmeister, Inspector-General in the Air Force talking to his subordinates...
A. Those were not his subordinates: The Fleet Engineers and the Luftgau Engineers, Quartermasters, were not under his orders. They were under the General Staff.
Q. Did you ever hear Milch give any oral orders to anybody?
A. Oral orders? Yes, they were given all right, of course.
Q. So you didn't write down everything that You did?
A. No. However, most of the things were decided upon in the meetings and conferences and then the completed records were sent to the office concerned.
Q. Well, were any oral orders given in any of these meetings that you attended?
A. Yes. For instance, they submitted a report with reference to this matter.
Q. Then oral orders were given out at these meetings?
A. Yes, but later on they were kept in the records in writing.
Q. Now, in all these cases where oral orders were given, they were always reduced to writing?
A. Yes, that was the custom in the Ministry.
Q. That always happened?
A. Yes.
Q. Nobody ever acted on an oral order so far as you know?
A. No.
Q. What happened to Field Marshal Rommel?
A. I did not know Field Marshal Rommel personally.
Q. Well, was he active at the end of the war?
A. No, I was only present there when he was buried. I was present there as representative of the Reich Marshal.
Q. Was Field Marshal von Leeb active at the end of the war?
A. Von Leeb?
Q. Ritter von Leeb.
A. Ritter von Leeb -- I don't believe that he was active. However, he is still alive.
Q. Yes, he withdrew after the campaign up at the Pripjet Marshes, didn't he?
A. The Field Marshal von Leeb who was in charge of the front at Petersburg?
There were two Ritter von Leeb's.
Q. There's only one Field Marshal von Leeb.
A. Yes, one Field Marshal, that's right.
Q. Then after the campaign up in the Pripjet Marshes, he flew back to Hitler and told him that he wanted to straighten the lines up; that there were 10 divisions cut off up there; and Hitler wouldn't let him do it; and he retired?
A. Yes. I don't know anything at all about this matter.
Q. You recall when Rundstedt became inactive when he was assigned on the Eastern Front?
A. Yes, Rundstedt withdrew five times and was taken back five times.
Q. Yes, but he did withdraw, didn't he?
A. Yes, he did; and he lived down here in Southern Bavaria.
MR. DENNEY: I have no further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, did Mr. von Rundstedt resign on his own or was he ordered to do so by his superior officer, that is Hitler?
A. Hitler made him resign and then took him back.
Q. In other words, he did not resign on his own?
A. No, he could not.
Q. When he had been released from active service, was he a Field Marshal any longer?
A. Yes, he was. I have mentioned before that in the German army it was customary that a Field Marshal always remains active until the end of his life; in other words, until his death.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, with reference to the question of thirtytwo nations, I have just counted the nations in Europe. If we disregard the Russians and the French, then there were the Spaniards, the Portuguese, the Belgians, the Dutch, the Luxembourgers, the Norwegians, the Swedee, the Italians, the Hungarians, the Serbs -- or the Groates or the Yugoslavs -- I'm sorry;
but I'm very tired today because I had a bad heart attack last night -the Czechs, the Poles, Bulgarians, the Roumanians, the Swiss, and the Creeks. In other words, a total of sixteen nations. I don't believe that in Germany we used Portuguese or Spaniards or Swedes or Swiss. None of them worked in Germany. Then, as far as I know, there were no Roumanians working here either. In other words, it's one of those passages where the defendant says more than the truth.
I have no further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal may remove the witness.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please your Honors, I have a few exhibits which I would like to submit; and I ask the Secretary General, if I may, to distribute the English copies to the Court. I hope that Mr. Denney also received the English copies. However, the distribution is not in my hands. I have no objection to their being offered, your Honor. I received none of these; and I received none of the last batch being offered.
I would like to submit Exhibit Number 51, an excerpt from the Nurnberger Nachrichten of the 5th of March, 1947. That is the third year of publication, Number 18, page 3. On the basis of an Associated Press report, the following thing is being said:
"On the basis of statements made by five German women on March 1st, German female Wehrmacht Auxiliaries who had returned from captivity in Russia, representatives of the German church told the public that 20,000 German women are in Russian camps. Those five who returned out of hundreds of women who were in Russia are mines or foundries themselves said they had been released because of illness."
The remaining part is not interesting at all.
I am submitting this because according to my opinion it proves how Soviet Russia interprets the directives with respect to treatment of prisoners of war between Russia and Germany.
I would then like to submit Exhibit Number 52, which is an affidavit of Herr Schirmer. It reads as follows:
"I, Albin Schirmer, born on the 25th of August, 1892, in Bamberg, postal address Nurnberg, Furtherstrasse 58, my attention having been drawn to the fact that I will be punished if I give a false affidavit.
I declare on the basis of this affidavit that my statement is the truth and is to be used as evidence before the Military Tribunal Number 2 in the Palace of Justice, Nurnberg, Germany.
"Since 1929 I worked at the Nurnberg Hercules Works GMBH, and I also worked there during the entire war as a workshop master or foreman. The necessary workers were requested by the firm at the labor office. The labor office preferred the firm to use French prisoners of war or Free French and Free Czech laborers. These free foreign laborers, who also worked on Luftwaffe orders, were on the same basis, or were just as good as the German workers in every respect.
"The greatest part of them lived in furnished rooms. Some of them lived in camps because it was much cheaper there. Working hours and payment food coupons, and the additional worker's coupons were the same as with ever German. Their freedom to move about was the same as that of the Germans. For example, they could visit theatres, movies, cafes, German families; and the same applied to talking to German girls, which, however, did not apply to prisoners of war. The sanitary facilities of the firm were good and were at the disposal of both German and foreign workers. The prisoners of war has a certain time to take showers, while the free foreign workers could take showers with the Germans. The free French workers were allowed to correspond freely with France; and they also spent their leaves there.
"I know of only two cases in which free French workers did not return from their leave in France. Many French prisoners of war reported voluntarily as free laborers in order to avail themselves of the various privileges. The prisoners of war also asked for beer every day. During the airraids the free foreign workers volunteered for difficult work which they wouldn't have done if they hadn't been treated properly. After the arrival of the American troops the mass of the French workers said good-bye to me very kindly and shook hands with me, wishing me the very best of luck.
"The Ukrainian laborers, female workers, also, according to their own statements, were well-off.
"(Signed) Albin Schirmer. Thus is to testify that this above signature is proper and was witnessed by Dr. Werner Milch. (Signed) Dr. Werner Milch, assistant defense counsel before Military Tribunal Number 2."
DR. BERGOLD: I would like to submit now Exhibit No. 54. I already submitted No. 53 yesterday. This is the affidavit of Frau Mathilde Kayser, "I, Dr. Mathilde Kayser, born Hunnius at Hagen-Westphalia.
Now resident in Hagen-Westphalen, In der Welle 34, has been cautioned that I will be liable to punishment if I make a false affidavit. I declare under oath that my state ment is true, and was made in order to present evidence before the Military Tribunal No. 2, at the Palace of Justice, Nurnberg, Germany. My husband's comrades including Dankwart Graf. v. Arnim and Dr. Hellmuth Freiherr von Maltzahn, who live in Hagen-Westphalen, In der Welle 34, have given the identical account of the death of my husband, 1st Lieutenant of the Reserve, Dr. Jur. Wolfang Kayser.
"On 27 August 1944, my husband and several comrades were captured in Paris by the French. The German soldiers were marched away together with their hands raised. Without any obvious reasons an armed French civilian suddenly stopped out from the crowd standing in the street, and fired a shot from his pistol at close range, which hit my husband in the left temple so that he fell dead immediately. The French neither arrested the Frenchman, nor did they make any investigation whatsoever. The German comrades bent down over the dying man. They were driven off with blows from rifle butts. The various information of the comrades about the death through the Red Cross was never forwarded to me. I received the information about his death only on 1 April 1946, after the release of eye witnesses from American and English captivity. I still know nothing about the location of his grave, nor have I received any official communication. Signed. Dr. Mathilde Kayser. The above signature of Dr. Mathilde Kayser Hagen-Westphalen, In der Welle 34, made before the undersigned, is hereby certified and witnessed by me. Hagen, 9 February 1947, Signature, Dr. Werner Milch. Assistant Defense Counsel before Military Tribunal No. 2".
Now, may it please Your Honor, I don't wish to accuse anybody, be it far from me, to say that the French Nation had anything to do with it. I only want to say that there are certain acts committed in excitement without a motive of revenge amongst millions of people which the war had led to fight against each other, and that there are certain acts which are not very pleasant, without one being able to charge or accuse the government, or the military superiors, or to make the entire people responsible.
Now I would like to introduce Exhibit No. 56, an affidavit of Dr. Rolf Funzengruber, which reads as follows:
"I, Dr. Rolf Punzengruber, born on 19 December 1900, Schwarzenbach Kaernten, stateless, a witness at the Place of Justice in Nurnberg, have been informed that I make myself liable with punishment if I make a false affidavit. I declare on oath that my testimony is true, and was made in order to present evidence before the Military Tribunal No. 2, at the Palace of Justice, Nurnberg, Germany. I was a prisoner of the Gestapo from '41 to '43. I was a concentration camp inmate at Dachau for the greater part of this time I was detailed to the concentration camp as a prisoner to do chemical work for Dr. Rascher. During all of this time the name of Milch was never mentioned. Rancher was morally inferior, had a greed for money, and was inclined to lie and used to exaggeration, to ambiguous expressions. He was false and a psychopathic individual. Signed. Dr. Rolf Punzengruber. The above signature at the Place of Justice, Nurnberg, has been made in the presence of Dr. Friedrich Bergold, Attorney at law, and hereby certified witnessed by me on 8 March 1947. Signature Dr. Friedrich Bergold, counsel for defense, Military Tribunal No. 2."
Now I am through with my presentation, may it please Your Honor, and in this whole document book I have not shown the charge put at least of the Speer contradiction with the past exhibits which had been submitted here.
These charges could not be mimeographed as is customary because it is too large. It will be photostated and then submitted to you in the English translation, that is, as a photostatic copy. I beg you to have patience. Besides that, Your Honor, there are quite a number of requests as I already mentioned yesterday, which I sent out through the Secretary General, showing that the alterations in the verbatim record to contain very serious mistakes; these are mainly very serious mistakes; I am very worried about this matter. Then these records in English do not only contain stenotype mistakes of the stenotypes, which can be understood, but also mistakes or misunderstandings by the interpreters, which can also be understood. However, if these records are submitted to you, you are liable to draw false conclusions. I don't know how this should be changed. The requests for alterations have been submitted by me, and that was only part of the material which I was able to look through as I am busy all the time, and it is not very easy for us Germans when we do not speak English well, as is the case with me, as I myself did not learn English during my youth; it is not my language because I was taught Greek and Latin and then it is rather difficult to carry out such a comparison. However, this matter must be cleared up somehow, because the records are the basis for your judgment. The requests are under way, and so far I have heard nothing about their fate. I have only heard that for certain technical reasons they have to go through quite a number of processes, and they are being checked up now. As the information center was only at my disposal, for my requests, it is my opinion also that quite serious and distorting mistakes are in the records. Therefore, I would like to ask this Tribunal to take care of this matter and to think it over and to give it their kind assistance, which has been given to me so many times, and I have every confidence to tell this to the Tribunal in every respect. That is all I have to say.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, I have here a teletype cable which was received from the Provost Marshal General of the United States Army. I have not as yet been able to get any copy made and I am sure Dr. Bergold will not mind, in view of the misfortunes he has had recently with his exhibits. However, I shall give him one as soon as I get it translated. It is from the War Department:
"20 March 1947, 0232Z. Office of Chief Counsel. Reference your radio March OCC ML dated 110800Z, following affidavit prepared by General Bryan, the Prevost Marshal General. Blackshear. Bryan being duly sworn deposes and says: That he is a Brigadier General in US Army serving as Provost Mrshal General. That from 17 December 42 until 45 he was Assistant Provost Marshal General. That from 3 December 45 to 6 December 1945 he was acting as Provost Marshal General. That from 7 December 45 to date he has been The Provost Marshal General. That during the period of the war the Office of the Provost Marshal General functioned as the staff agency of the Commanding General, Army Service Forces, and carried out the responsibility of the Commanding General, Army Service Forces, in all matters pertaining to enemy prisoners of war. That among these responsibilities were:
"A. Supervision and execution of War Department policy to make effective the provisions of the Geneva Convention of 1929, reference to the treatment of prisoners of war.
"B. Formulation of necessary rules and regulations reference War Department responsibility in control of prisoners of war. That the Office of the Provost Marshal General had jurisdiction over Prisoners of War Division, and the operations section of teletype Prisoners of War Division. That in order to implement the provisions of the Geneva Convention of '29 and to provide War Department personnel and others concerned with information concerning basic plans and policies of the War Department reference prisoners of war, War Department Technical Manual 19-500, entitled 'Enemy Prisoners of War', was published by order of the Secretary of War for information and guidance of all concerned. That further in accord with the Geneva Convention and with Technical Manual 19-500, and with specific reference to the work of German prisoners of war within the continental limits of the United States:
"Chapter 5, Section 3, Technical Manual 19-500 states:
"'1. No prisoner of war nay be employed at labors for which he is physically unfit.
"'2. Labor furnished by prisoners of war shall have no direct relation with war operations. It is especially prohibited for manufacturing and transporting arms or munitions of any kind, or for transporting material intended for combatant units.'
"Officers from my office, and who reported directly to me, inspected the camps and labor projects of German prisoners of war. The inspections of thest officers, together with my own inspections, did not reveal violations of the above quoted provisions."
"The inspections of these officers, together with my own inspections, did not reveal violations of the above quoted previsions. To the best of my knowledge and belief, I would have known of such violations had they taken place.
"That the words 'installations' and 'military installations' as used in War Department publications or reports concerning the utilication of German prisoners of war meant only posts, camps, stations, and offices. Such words had no reference to war factories or other places of manufacturing arms or munitions of any kind.
"That wherever the words 'installations' and 'military installations' were used in connection with the later of German prisoners of war, they were not to be defined or used in such a manner as to negate or circumvent the provisions contained in Technical Manual 19-500 against using prisoners cf war in violation cf the Geneva Convention.
"That to the best of my knowledge and belief the labor of German prisoners of war was used only in types of labor permitted by the Geneva Convention."
If Your Honors please, we would like to mark this as Exhibit Number 160. I shall furnish the Court with copies of this this afternoon, I trust.
At this time I should like to make a blanket offer of all those exhibits which were offered for Identification. I believe, Your Honor, it began with 126.
THE PRESIDENT: 126, yes.
MR. DENNEY: That would be exhibit 126 through Exhibit 159, all of which have been heretofore marked for identification, which are now offered in evidence.
I should like at this time to ask the Court to judicially notice the -
DR. BERGOLD: (Interposing) Could Mr. Denney be kind enough to tell me what the affidavits are according to their contents, in a few words? I have no knowledge of these affidavits here.
MR. DENNEY: I am not talking about affidavits, Dr. Bergold. I am talking about exhibits which have been submitted and marked for identification. You have seen all of them.
DR. BERGOLD: Oh, I see, It is a misunderstanding. I thought they were called affidavits.
THE PRESIDENT: These are the same exhibits that you used to cross examine.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: In accordance with the Chief of Counsel's motion, offered exhibits Number 126 through 159 will be received in evidence and incorporated in the record.
MR. DENNEY: Do you propose to give us copies later of the cable which you just read?
MR. DENNEY: Yes, Your Honor. It is being copied now. I just haven't been able to get it copied or translated up to now. That will be Exhibit 160.
I'd also like to ask the Court at this time to judicially notice the opinion of the International Military Tribunal and to give me leave to quote from it in summation. There are three short passages with reference to the Schmundt record which I should like to read into the record.
THE PRESIDENT: Passages from the judgment of the International Military Tribunal?
MR. DENNEY: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the Tribunal under the Ordinance takes judicial notice of that, and it is already in the record by reference.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honors feel it will not be necessary to read this?
THE PRESIDENT: You may use it in your summation because it is already by operation of the Ordinance, a part of this record.
MR. DENNEY: And Your Honors feel it is not necessary at this time to read any part of it in?
THE PRESIDENT: Exactly.
MR. DENNEY: We are in a little quandary over your effort to incorporate part of the judgment of the IMT trial. Do you propose to offer findings of fact made in that judgment as binding upon us?
MR. DENNEY: YES, Your Honors, I just wanted to cite the part of the ****2349*** record where they discussed the Schmundt record of the meeting of 23 May 1939.