Q. That's enough on this subject, witness. Now I shall come to three further decrees issued by Sauckel, namely, Document NO.3044-PS, Exhibit A on page 50A, Your Honors, Document No. 2241-PS, Exhibit No. 15, page 64, and Document No. 3044-PS which is Exhibit No. 15-A. These are orders issued by Sauckel of the 7th of May 1942, 20th of July 1942, 22nd of August 1942, and all of them deal with how foreign labor could be recruited, transported, fed and quartered. Do you know these decrees and orders, and directives issued by Sauckel: Were they ever known to you? Were they ever brought to your attention, or does the same thing apply to these, what I said about Document 016-PS, Exhibit No. 13, does your statement apply to these too?
A. All three of them were not known to me before these trials. The same thing that I said before applies. We had nothing to do with that question.
Q. Witness, Document No. 654-PS, Exhibit No. 16 on page 67, Your Honors, these are notes notes by Theirach, concerning a conference or discussion with Himmler of the 18th of September 1942, in his field headquarters, concerning the turning over Jews to Himmler for extermination through work, Do you know anything at all about this conference in which also officials of the Justice Minister were present? Did you learn anything about it, and particularly, did../... you know anything about its results?
A Not up to these trials, and the question of the extermination through labor or work, also for the first time in this trial. However, concerning the question of the extermination of Jews in captivity, I know.
Q Witness, what do you know generally speaking about the treatment of the Jews in Hitler's Germany?
A I know that in 1937 or in 1958, the Nurnberg Laws were issued. I know that prior to that, constant propaganda was being carried out that the Jews could only be used according to the percentage of their number in certain fields of tasks. For instance, it was said that in some city, there was one percent of Jews; however, 80 percent of them were doctors or something like that. It was said that this would have to be brought down to a smaller basis and that time would take care of that. That is all I know at the time. However, the difference became more and more effective with the time, and some time passed by, it had been repeatedly mentioned, namely, when the Nurnberg Laws were published, or when the German diplomat was murdered, a largo program of Jewish business and Jewish synagogues took place. I did not know about that at the time. In 1939, I believe, during the war, when I was stationed at Koenigsberg with my old garrison, I noticed that the place where the synagogue was standing was empty. I asked my guide, who happened to be an officer from Koenigsberg, if he had any idea what kind of a square this was. He answered that he had only been there for a short time himself; however, the synagogue was there, and one of these years, I don't know -- until it was 1937 or 1938, it had been burnt down and that was all he had learned.
There, for the first time, I saw this question of degradation to a church.
Q. What else did you learn during the war was to happen to the Jews. Did you learn that they were to be brought to the cast?
A. Yes; but only through rumors, because neither from radios nor from the papers nor any other official agency would one learn about the facts.
1846a What struck me, however, was -- and I don't know exactly when that was that the Jews were wearing a yellow star on their suit.
The star was about that big (indicating). It was very conspicuous. I saw that while I was driving from my office to my home, or from my home to my office, but I could see that. During the war, however, it struck me that very few of those stars could be seen in Berlin. I kept inquiring about that matter, but I never received an accurate answer, until one day somebody told me -- I don' t remember who -- that the Jews were being sent to special Jewish cities and resettled there. They wanted to give them state of their own, or a city of their own, if you want to call it that, a homestead of their own. As most of the Jews lived in the region of Galicia, I heard that these little homesteads of theirs would be set up there. However, the whole thing was not clear. The man who told me about that knew nothing more about it than what he had heard through rumors.
Q Witness, did you know that large numbers of Jews were being sent to concentration camps?
A No.
Q Did you know that they were being gassed in the concentration a camps and murdered in an inhumane manner?
A No.
Q Did you know what the name "Auschwitz" meant?
A No, not in connection with the concentration camp or inhumane acts.
Q However, there was quite an important factory there?
A Yes; that is how I know the name.
Q Have you ever visited that factory?
A No.
Q What was your opinion concerning the face question?
A Until the end of the first war, or until about the middle of the first war, I did not know the Jewish problem or the Jewish question. During the war, however, the Jews were being reproached for avoiding the draft, for the fact that they had made a lot of money as war profiteers or racketeers.
During the whole war I was at the front and never at home, with the exception of a few days' leave or furlough, and I was not able to observe that with my own eyes.
From that time on, until the end of the war, we had one family where my sister and the daughter of a Jewish family were known to each other; in other words, they were friends. Those were the only Jews I ever saw in my own family and they were very nice and sympathetic people.
After the first war, however, there was a large immigration of Jews from the Eastern parts of Europe into Germany. I know from those Jewish people that I knew--that is, those that I know--that they were absolutely against that immigration of the Eastern Jews; and they even made a statement to the effect that this was not their own race.
Later on, in the continuation of my work in civilian aviation, I very seldom met Jews.
For example, the Poles, with whom I made all these agreements at times concerning the commercial air line and the sale of Junker planes--coming back to that, the first man of that company was Jewish. I had very good connections with him, and I got along fine with him; I thought he was a very good man. When I was in Warsaw I stayed with him; there were difficulties with billeting at the time.
Then, in the Lufthansa, I used, as my technical secretary, a pilot who also was Jewish; he has been mentioned here before. His name was Erich Schatzki, and I believe that at the Lufthansa I helped him to keep his position as well as to build up his position, which he deserved according to his work, because he was a hard working man and an honest man. It was my duty to help him during the war when, during the occupation of Holland he wanted to go to the States, which I could understand very well, and I tried my best to help him.
Q Is it correct that colleagues of that Mr. Schatzki in the Lufthansa had approached you and asked you to have him fired when they were so excited that he, as a Jew, had such an important position? What did you tell these people upon that?
A The higher technical chief who was between myself and Schatzki did not like him. That was, technically speaking, my deputy. I did not comply with these wishes, but I was absolutely against them, and as there were other points which I did not like about this gentleman, I went to see the Control Council and saw that he was fired. Schatzki, together with somebody else, took his place, or his job. However, after 1933, Schatzki -- he was an honorable man and he did not want to stay in Germany as a man of second-class because he was a Jew. I told him I could understand that very well, and we helped him to receive a job with Focker, first with Kurzhofen, and then with Focker.
Q Witness, did you believe in the Master Race theory, or were you against it?
A I have been abroad very often, and I know three continents. From that reasoning, it can be understood that I did not believe in the Master Race theory. I saw in that nothing but a reflection of the people's own inferiority complex. Whoever knows the Englishmen and the Frenchmen, or the Russians, will never be able to speak of an inferiority complex within those races.
Apart from that, I think it absolutely crazy that some one who believes in such a theory should mention it or speak about it. I don't believe that anybody would say he is more handsome than anybody else, even if he himself is absolutely convinced of that.
Q Thank yon, that is enough.
Witness, document 017-PS, Exhibit No. 18--this is a letter of the 5th of October 1942, of Sauckel's, to the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories, namely, Rosenberg, concerning the mobilization of foreign laborers. That is a letter he wrote. Do you know anything at all about this letter?
A Not until up to these trials.
Q Witness, what, generally speaking, do your know about the recruitment in the East? At that time did you go to the East, and could you make your own observations at the time?
Q I only arrived at the air fields near the front, where I inspected troops, and then I drove in my car through known countrysides to Hitler's and Goering's headquarters. These were headquarters which were in wooded areas, in the woods north of Winniza. I landed either in Winniza or Kalinowka; the airfield of Winniza was in the North. In other words, I did not drive through the town itself. That place, had no air field, had no houses whatsoever.
Q In other words, you could not make any observations whatsoever?
A No. I couldn't make any observations.
Q You couldn't know that, I see. Thank you.
Document 054-PS, Exhibit no. 19, is a report of Rosenberg's-- on page 85, Your Honors-- concerning the bad situation which had been caused by the Sauckel action, the report of the 7th of October 1942. Has this report been brought to your attention?
A Not up to this trial.
Q Did you ever hear any rumors about that, or any other statements that Sauckel, when recruiting these Eastern workers, had taken considerably wrong measures and that bad situations had occurred or arisen namely , that these people were taken together like cattle, so that one could speak of theft or robbery of human beings?
A No, not up to this trial. On the contrary, if I ever heard anything about that question, or if I read it in the newspapers, then it was described in the most beautiful colors you can imagine.
Q Witness, you also visited factories, didn't you, and you saw Eastern male or female workers there, didn't you?
A Yes.
What was your opinion about these people? Didn't they complain to you of anything?
A I regarded it as absolutely natural that whenever I visited a factory it was natural for me to talk to these workers, even if, in my official capacity, I had nothing to do with that question. However, as a soldier I was accustomed to act in that way. On that occasion I asked them how they were, how the food was; I looked at the people and I saw how well they were clad and what kind of an impression they gave us, generally speaking, if they looked healthy, if they looked satisfied or not. I saw Russians, namely Russian prisoners of war. Then I saw Russian female civilian workers, namely, Ukraines. I saw Frenchmen, namely, French civilian workers. There could have been prisoners of war amongst them, but they were wearing protective overalls over their clothes. There could have been workers from Slovakia, who considered themselves our allies, but they were very, very few. Then there were quite a few Italian workers there, those who had come on a voluntary basis at the time; those so-called "Emis" I did not see.
Q Did Eastern workers, male or female, ever complain to you concerning their work?
A No, they did not. On the contrary, the general im pression of these female Ukrainians who worked on the Junker 52's was a very pleasing one.
The girls were singing; they were well fed; they were well dressed; and they answered my questions in a nice, cheerful way. I spent about 20 minutes with these girls. There were quite a few pretty ones amongst them, and towards the end they flirted with me, and the girls were laughing all the time.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court had better recess, this is getting to the danger point.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No. 2 is again in session BY DR. BERGOLD: Witness, I now turn to Document 294 PS, Exhibit 19A. It is a document dated 25 October 1942, and it is a top secret matter in the shape of a memorandum from a Mr. Braeutigam dealing with the situation in Russia. The back of it deals with the situation regarding prisoners of war, some of it with the treatment of Ukranians. Had you previous knowledge of this matter?
A. No.
Q. I now come to Document L6I, Exhibit No. 20. It is an express letter from Sauckel dated 26 November 1942 addressed to the Presidents of the Landes Employment Office. It deals with the employment of Jews and their exchange for Poles. Do you know or did you know at the time of this document and its contents?
A. No.
Q. Document 1063 PS D Exhibit 21, an order from a certain Mr. Mueller from the RSHA relating to detainees capable of work who were to be sent to concentration camps. Do you or did you know anything about this at the time?
A. No.
Q. Exhibit 22, Document 018 PS, which is a letter of complaint from Rosenberg to Sauckel dated 21 December 1942. It relates to labor in the East, and Rosenberg is complaining about wrong measures which Sauckel adopted. Did you ever get this letter, or did it ever come to your knowledge?
A. No.
Q. Then of coarse you couldn't know anything about the story told about this Document 3003 PS, Exhibit No. 24, a report from a certain Lt. Haupt regarding the war economic situation in Holland. Did you know anything about that at the time?
A. No.
Q Then follows Exhibit 1526 PS, Exhibit No. 25, a latter from the Ukranian Chief Committee addressed to tho General Government originating from the north of February 1943, again dealing with tho deficiencies in the East, which Sauckel's treasures had caused. Did you receive that report or did it come to your knowledge at tho tine?
A No.
Q Then follows Document No. 1130 PS, Exhibit No. 25. Those are notes and reports about a speech made by Gauleiter Koch at Kiev dated 5 March and 11 April 1943. Did you hoar anything about tho speech made by Koch or did you have detailed knowledge of it at the time?
A No.
Q Then I turn to Document 407 II PS, a letter from Sauckel to Hitler dated 10 March 1943, again dealing with recruitment difficulties of labor in the former soviet Territories. Did you receive it?
A No.
Q Next is document 019 PS Exhibit No. 27, dated March 17 1943, a letter from Sauckel to Rosenberg regarding replacements of Eastern laborers. Did you got knowledge of it? Did you receive it?
A No.
Q Document 3012 PS, Exhibit No. 28, an order from a certain Mr. Christiansen dated 19 March and 11 March, respectively, addressed to all group loaders of SD dealing with deficiencies in Eastern territories. Did you got knowledge of it?
A No.
Q Exhibit No. 2220 PS, Exhibit No. 29, is a report from Lammers to Himmler dated April 12, 1943 dealing with the situation in the Government General and containing suggestions regarding, alterations, including dismissal of Frank. Did you previously gain knowledge of it?
A. No
Q Document 407 V IS, Exhibit No. 30, a report from Sauckel to Hitler, dated 15 April 1943, in which he reports to Hitler about his activities and particularly reports about the fact that statutes should be applied to the Belguims similar to these applicable to the French, and also all the foreign labor ho had brought to the Reich. Did you gain knowledge of the report at the time?
A No.
Q Then follows 2280, Document 2280 PS, Exhibit 32. That is a letter dated 3 Hay 1943 from the Reich Commissioner for Eastern territories dealing with the recruitment of labor in the Baltic states. Did you gain knowledge of it at the time?
A No.
Q Exhibit No. 31, photograph of the work done by Russian prisoners of war on ammunition works. Did you ever see such photographs?
A Neither did I see the photograph nor did I see it in reality.
Q Did you never hear of it that Russian prisoners of war were carrying ammunition and had to load aircraft and had to do similar work?
A It isn't known to me. When I visited an airport with bombers in it I never saw Russians who worked on these aircraft in any way, be it with ammunition or be it with bombs. I did see aircraft being loaded. That was always done by special employees, German soldiers of the airforce.
Q Document 407 IX PS Exhibit No. 33 a letter from Sauckel dated 3 June 1943, addressed to Hitler, again do-ling with the situation of foreign workers, in connection with whom ho reports all the things that he did in the first five months cf 1943 and whom ho brought to Germant. Did you hear of this report at the time?
A No.
Q With reference to this passage I want to put a question to you. The assertion has boon made that Sauckel had currently made reports to you about his activities, about the bringing into Germany of foreign workers, for instance. Is that correct or is it not?
A That is wrong. I only saw Sauckel in the framework of the Central Planning Board on individual meetings. He never once came to my office, and I myself never went to his. Nor could I tell you today where it was. I don't even know where he had his offices.
Q Didn't you receive written reports from him?
A I never saw a written report from him.
Q Do you know wheter your office would have received such a report and whether you had a verbal report about that?
A My own office certainly never received suck a report. Whether the statistical personnel department in the GL did receive suck matters is something I do not know. They certainly weren't put before me.
Q Reports about the receipt o such?
A I did not receive them.
Q Document 3000 PS, Exhibit No. 34, a report from the chief of the loading department 3 attached to the Supreme Commander in Minsk, addressed to a certain Mr. Reichert, dated 28 June 1943, dealing with political and economic problems in the East, particularly in White Russia. Did you over receive that report or did you over get knowledge of it?
A No.
Q Document 265 PS, Exhibit No. 35, a memorandum dealing with an oral report of a Mr. Luose (?) to Rosenberg, dealing with the situation in the district of Shitemir in Russia. Did you over got knowledge of that memorandum?
A No, and I would like to add to that that this applies to the period right up to the beginning of this trial.
Q. Document 3010-PS, Exhibit 38, a secret organizational order dated 17 August 1943, from the Economic Supervisory Department regarding recruitment of labor for the Reich, Did you gain knowledge of it?
A. No.
Q. What is the position - a number of documents I have Put to you have been described as "secret". Could you possibly ever reach them in your department or were they only secret within the actual sphere of activity which they concerned?
A. No, that differs. "Secret" means that they weren't allowed to reach the public anywhere. Such, also, when the heading was "secret", were treated in a special way, militarily speaking; that is, because they went through a special registry department, and that civilian departments would also write "secret" also. What they mean by that - how they treat it - that is something I don't know. We didn't call it "secret". We called it "Secret Command Matter" and whenever it says just "secret", then it is probably from a civilian source.
Q. Document 290-PS, Exhibit No. 37, a letter from Rosenber's ministry dated November 12, 1943, regarding the burning down of houses in the district of Lille. Did you hear about it at any time?
A. No.
Q. Did you hear at any time anything about the fact that Sauckel, as punishment for the failure to report for work, had houses burned down?
A. No.
Q. Document 1702-PS, Exhibit 37, dated November-December 1943, a report about the evacuation of Cassatine. Did that cone to your knowledge - that report?
A. No.
Q. Document 1913-FS, Exhibit Number 38-A. It is an agreement reached between the general plenipotentiary for labor - that is, Sauckel - and the German Labor Front regarding the welfare of foreign labor, which appeared in the Reich Law Gazett in 1943. Was this agreement communicated to you, or did you gain knowledge of it?
A. Yes, I know it as far as its contents are concerned, but the text was not submitted to me.
Q. What do you mean, "as far as its contents are concerned"?
A. I knew that for the improvement of the lot of all foreign workers in Germany, it being high from the point of view of welfare and entertainment, cinema, music, theater, and such like, and better equipment of camps with furniture and so on. Ley, with his Labor Front, had intervened and that this sector, which had until then been dealt with by Sauckel along, and which wasn't functioning too well, was taken over.
A. What was the impression you had of this decree? Was it meant to improve it or make it worse?
A. Since the German Labor Front in Germany was doing a great deal of good work on behalf of the workers, we were most pleased since a demand of ours which we had often made for better welfare for foreign workers was thus taken care of. However, industry, during occasional visits, had drawn our attention to the fact that such questions of entertainment and improvement were lacking a great deal in many places, and industry alone was not in a position to alleviate it in a sufficiently strong way.
Q. Document 204-PS, exhibit Number 59, a memorandum dated 18 February 1944, from the Municipal Commissioner at Kauen, originally called Kowno, regarding the supply of workers from there to the Reich. Did you gain knowledge of that memorandum?
A. No.
Q. Document R-103, Exhibit No. 40, a letter from the Polish Chief Committee to the Governor General Frank, dated 17 May 1944, dealing with the position of Polish workers in the Reich. Did you ever receive that letter - gain knowledge of it?
A. No.
Q. Did you, around about that time, not hear about it - that in Poland conditions were frightful?
A. No.
Q. Document 254-PS, Exhibit 41, dated 7 June 1944, is a letter from Rapp to the Reichminister for the Occupied Territories, who was Rosenberg, dealing with the burning down of houses in the Rasivkow district. Did you gain knowledge of it?
A. No.
Q. I shall now turn to Document 3721-PS, Exhibit Number 41A. That is an interrogation of Sauckel on the 22nd of September 1945. It is on page 180 of the English Document Book. He makes the following statement; namely, that the Fuehrer had given him the task that all questions from the Central Planning Board should be complied with without question so that the Central Planning Board would, therefore, have some sort of authority to give orders to him. And he says it was decided in the Central Planning Board that their workers in various departments would be dealt with by Milch or Speer, Speer for agriculture. I don't want you to go into this in detail; we shall have to speak about this at great length. But when going through these exhibits, I should like to have a brief answer from you regarding the correctness of this statement. I think we shall go into it in detail at another point.
A. These statements are wrong.
Q. There are similar passages where it is again and again asserted that since the Central Labor Board made decisions to the effect that Speer would get a hundred thousand, Milch would get a hundred thousand people, and so on and so forth. Is that correct or incorrect?
A. No, it is incorrect.
Q. Regarding the remaining exhibit in those two volumes, 1-A and B, I don't think I need come to them since they deal with affidavits; for instance, from a certain Deuss, dealing with the approximate numbers, or a report from the Senate of the 79th Congress for cruelties in concentration camps, and all these are natters, of course, which were only compiled in this form after the war. I shall now turn to Document Book 2A, Your Honors, and I turn to Document NOKW 311, Exhibit 61, which is Goering's interrogation on the 6th of September 1946.
Witness, once again I shall only put to you individual statements and I should like you to tell me with reference to those passages, briefly, whether the versions are correct or not. Page 44, 2B, Goering's statement at that point that you had made requests - on orders by Speer, who in turn would make these requests to Sauckel, You make them to Speer, he made them to Sauckel. The version which we have there -
DR. BERGOLD: This, Your Honors, is the 8th document in Document Book 2-A; the interpretation of it on page 20 - on page 34. It is NOKW, on page 44-
MR. DENNEY: Your Honors, that is the first page of Document Book 2B.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Is that a correct statement, such as he gave?
A. No, it is wrong. It is untrue. Goering didn't have the slightest idea of the organization of his own ministry.
Q. Witness, he states that if you had ever been having difficulties in getting workers, then you had gone to him and he always supported it. Is that correct in that form?
A. That is correct; that on a few occasions, and always when he had been making, raising accusations against me to the effect that our armament was lagging behind its program, and when I was giving him as the reason the lack of workers, I would tell him these workers never got to us. And then he would say that Sauckel had supplied them, that he had no idea about it.
I told him that I could only find out what the industry had reported to me as the actual strength which I think was done month by month, and I could gather from that, I said, that the number of workers had never increased.
He wouldn't have it; he wouldn't believe it, and he was going to talk to Sauckel. But usually I never had another word about it.
Sometimes, of course, he used to say that he was going to see to it that we would receive these workers in our industry. But then again I couldn't 1860-A judge that because I only knew the total figures which were available.
Q. He then went on to say that you had boon his deputy as State Secretary, firstly, during his absence and, secondly, in a number of spheres which he left to you. Is that correct or not correct?
A. It applies correctly until the summer of 1937 -- the general deputizing in the Air Force I am talking about. After that it is no longer correct. Automatically I became his deputy in my own sphere of work if he did not carry out his offices, but since he retained his position when he was on holiday, for instance, then it was only the ordinary deputy's work in my own spheres of work, dealing with all questions where he had given me an independent position. What this amounted to was that he was informed through me about all important questions. He never gave an order--something which he had expressly reserved to himself--to the effect that I was to be his deputy.
Q. Witness, I shall now go ahead a number of documents, and I shall turn to NOKW 247, Exhibit Number 61, which is this power of attorney, this authority which Goering is supposed to have given you in 1944. It is in Document book 2-C. I shall have it put to you.
MR. DENNEY: Document book 2-C
A. May I ask whether we have an original or a photostatic copy of this?
Q. That I do not know. Maybe Mr. Denney can clear up the situation, namely, whether there is an original of this draft.
MR. DENNEY: It would be with the Secretary General, whatever we've got.
Q. As far as I know, an original is not in existence.
A. I wanted to see the numbers it had so that I could see where it originated and who wrote it.
DR. BERGOLD: Perhaps the General Secretary could be asked to have Exhibit Number 61 sent to the courtroom, and I shall in the meantime ask about various other exhibits that I have to deal with.