Therefore my reply is not valid now, which I gave
Q. But now I ask you did you personally see Milch in Himmler's offices?
A. Yes, I believe in his field headquarters.
Q. Several times or only once?
A. I believe only once.
Q. And about what time was that?
A. I could not say that now. It was in East Prussia. I could not say that with certainty.
Q. You said before that Rascher was a member of the Luftwaffe. Why in your letters to the ether agencies did you refer to him as the SS Obersturmfuehrer? The translation came before as SS Lieutenant. Why did you call him SS?
A. The idea was to take him into the SS.
Q. But was he not a member of the Allgemeine-SS?
A. I believe he was a member of the Allgemeine-SS too, but I do not know when he joined.
Q. Were you acquainted with the volume of the experiments?
A. No.
Q. Therefore, can you say that the experiments were only for the benefit of the Luftwaffe and not also for the benefit of the SS itself?
A. These were made for the benefit of the Luftwaffe. It's an assumption of mine which I base on the fact that the experiments themselves were carried out by members of the Luftwaffe and that for instance the high altitude experiments were of no interest to the SS.
Q. Did you know that Himmler wrote to Rascher and sent him personal instructions with regard to special experiments?
A. That's possible but I could not say it with certainty.
DR. BERGOLD: If I may ask Dr. Denney to give me the telegram for just a minute so that I may ask a counter question?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, you are, of course, entitled to see any of the documents which Dr. Denney used in examining the witness.
Q. I only wanted to see it so I could ask the rebuttal question from these telegrams. May I see the preceding letter also? (letter is secured) Witness, have you any knowledge of a letter sent by the Reichsfuehrer SS 1352 a on 18 April 1942 in which was ordered that prisoners condemned to death and survived these experiments, that these prisoners should be pardoned?
A. I had hardly any recollection of this now but it is quite possible that such a letter had been sent.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions, your Honor.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Witness, you know that Rascher was a Luftwaffe doctor?
A. I knew that as a doctor he belonged to the Luftwaffe.
Q. And you knew they were trying to get him transferred from the Luftwaffe to the SS and that you had some correspondence about that?
A. There was a very extensive correspondence there.
Q. And you knew that he didn't ultimately get transferred to the SS until March of 1943?
A. I don't recollect the date. That he was transferred, I do recall.
Q. Well, you know that you wrote to SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl on 20 November 1942 stating the Reichsfuehrer SS requests that SS Hauptssturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher be transferred from the Luftwaffe to the SS is worked on right now and is to be assisted as much as possible in his experimentation at Dachay?
A. This letter certainly was sent.
MR. DENNEY: No further questions.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, would it be possible that the conference to which you testified before -- the conference between Himmler and Milch, which allegedly took place in Eastern Prussia -- wouldn't it have been possible that conference actually took place in Salzburg?
A. No, I did not say anything about a conversation. All I mentioned was that Milch visited Himmler at Himmler's headquarters. I believe also that was part of an invitation which Himmler had sent out to some people of the Fuehrer's headquarters to come and dine with him. I don't think it was an actual conference when I saw Milch with Himmler. I could not say that with certainty.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you. I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will return this witness to Tribunal I.
DR. BERGOLD: Now, I would like to ask the Court to have a brief adjournment so that I could talk to the witnesses Engl and Dorsch. It would also be necessary if Room 157 could be put at my disposal for the witnesses so that the witnesses could be taken there from the prison.
THE PRESIDENT: That can be arranged. Shall we say until three o'clock.
DR. BERGOLD: That would be sufficient if the witnesses could be brought in very quickly but sometimes it takes a quarter of an hour until they arrive, in which case the time would be very short.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the Marshal see that the witness is brought as soon as possible to Room 157, Col. Mays? That will be done and the Court will resume its session at three o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until three o'clock.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.
DR. BERGOLD: I ask permission to call the witness Lieutenant General Engl.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will bring the witness Engl to the witness stand.
GERHARD ENGL, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, I ask you to speak slowly. I ask you further to pause after every one of my questions so that the interpreters may have enough time to interpret my question to its conclusion. Witness, please state your first and last name.
A. Gerhard Engl.
Q. When were you born?
A. 13 April 1906.
Q. What was your last rank and position in the German Wehrmacht?
A. My last rank and last position in the German Wehrmacht were Division Commander and Lieutenant General.
Q. Do you recall that on the 23rd of May 1939 you were present at a conference in the new Reich Chancellory in Hitler's office.
A. I recall that in May of 1939 I was present at a Hitler conference at least for some length of time although perhaps not during its whole length.
Q. Witness, what was your position on the 23rd of hay 1939?
A. I was a captain and was an adjutant of the Army, of the Wehrmacht, in Hitler's adjutanture.
Q. Witness, can you recall whether Feldmarshall Goering was present at that time?
1355 a
A. I cannot recall whether Goering was present.
Q. Witness, was this conference at that time of considerable or brief duration?
A. So for as I recall, it was rather long.
Q. Can you tell me roughly how many hours?
A. That is very difficult after such a lapse of time but I believe it lasted two or three hours.
Q. Can you give us your general impression of the purpose and aims of that conference?
A. I know that Hitler spoke at great length, that he said a great deal about armaments and about possible political developments in Europe. I can provide no details since I was not present throughout the whole conference. You must recall that was more than eight years ago.
Q. Did you have the general impression that this speech was the announcement of the coming agression against Europe?
A. No, I cannot say that.
Q. Why not? Do you want to say it was not an announcement of coming aggression or that you had no impression one way or another?
A. I remember too few of the details of the conference itself. Hitler spoke a great deal about war at that time, and it was nothing unusual at that time.
Q. Witness, I should like to refer now to the conclusion of that conference. Can you tell us whether at the end of Hitler's speech he stated the following principle:
"First, no one is to take part who does not have to know. "Secondly, no one should find out more than he must know. "Thirdly, no one should know anything earlier than necessary." Can you recall that these words were said so pregnantly?
A. No, I cannot remember.
Q. Is it true that these words arc the content of the so-called basic Fuehrer order?
A. In the Fuehrer Order Number 1, these words do appear frequently.
Q. Do you know when, for the first time, this principle was phrased so concisely?
A. So far as I remember, after secrecy was absolutely necessary. This was quite a while after the beginning of the war.
Q. Witness, was there discussion at that time of the fact that everything should be kept secret from Japan, or that Japan had its own reason for her reluctance to take steps against Russia.
A. No. I can say nothing on that subject.
Q. Is it correct that Hitler spoke in this speech about the fact that he wanted to avoid a two-front war?
A. I do not believe that the two-front war was discussed at all in this conference because I would imagine that I, as an officer, would have noticed such discussion of a twofront war particularly.
1357 A
Q. Do you know whether at that time, there was discussion about breaking through the maginot line from Italy and that this should be studied.
A. That, too, I cannot recall.
Q. Witness, do you know that at the end of the conference, Goering began a discussion regarding what the various parts of the Wehrmacht had to do in the way of construction, what the ship-building program was and what years the armaments program should be oriented toward?
A. I cannot recall that nor can I imagine that it took place, because in General, Hitler's conferences were not subsequently discussed.
Q. In other words, it was not usual that discussion should take place after such a conference?
A. So far as I can recall, no.
Q. One more question, was there any discussion of invading Holland, Belgium or wanting to coerce them to take up arms against England or to make their harbors available to Germany?
A. I can say nothing precise on that subject, but I could not believe it was at that time. Later, however, there was considerable discussion of that.
DR. BERGOLD: No further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. You say the conference lasted two or three hours?
A. Yes, I have said that I believe that would be approximately correct.
Q. And you were on duty as Adjutant; is that correct?
A. Yes, as one of the adjutants of the Wehrmacht branches.
Q. With whom did you come to the meeting?
A. Really, I went to the Conference alone; there were a large number of participants. We really only had ordnance matters to discuss at that conference.
Q. How many people who were there, do you recall?
A. I believe I can say that the high commander of the different branches of the Wehrmacht, were certainly there, I am sure that Colonel-General von Brauchitsch was present. As far as I recall, the chiefs of the General Staff were also present: Colonel General Halder, I believe; General Jeschennek; Grand Admiral Raeder was there, from the Navy. His Chief of Staff was there, whose name I do not know, any longer. A few other gentlemen whom I cannot recall, exactly. Let me emphasize, again, that it was more than eight years ago
Q. Well, how many would you say were there total, at the Conference, how many made up the party?
A. I should estimate, from ten to twelve persons.
Q. Well, you were a captain then, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. So that you must have gone there as an Aide to somebody. After all, if Hitler had all these people come, and there were only twelve of them, he didn't reach down into the Hauptmann, and bring you there alone, did he?
A. No, I said I was the Adjutant in the Wehrmacht and was responsible to the High Commander of the Army, and we were to arrange matters for the Army that was to come.
Q. That was von Brauchitsch?
A. Yes; and the General Staff; those who were members of the Army.
1359 A MR. DENNEY: I do not think the translation come out correct; you mean "Halder", did you not?
THE WITNESS: "H-a-l-d-e-r"; also yes.
MR. DENNEY: Did you make any notes of this conference?
A. No; I took no notes.
Q. And you never talked to anybody about it, afterwards?
A. Oh, yes, I probably did. We probably spoke about it, among ourselves.
Q. Were you in end out of the meeting?
A. Yes; that is always done, because the telephone had to be serviced. Some documents had to be brought in, that is true of every conference.
Q. But the ones that go out and fetch things, are the Junior officers, are they not?
A. No, these are the officers that have to do with ordnance matters; the lower officers.
Q. Yes, That is what I said, the "Junior" officers go out; Hitler wasn't going to run out an bring in anything himself, was he?
A. I couldn't imagine that he would do such a thing.
MR. DENNEY: Nor could I.
Q. Do you know how much of the meeting you were in attendance there, and how much you were out?
A. That I can no longer say.
Q. So that when you told Dr. Bergold that Hitler didn't say something about one subject or the other, you might well have been out of the room when he was talking about that; isn't that true?
A. That is quite possible.
Q. You are just giving us your best recollection, of some thing that happened almost nine years ago; isn't that right?
A. That is right.
Q. Part of the time you were present and part of the time you were absent?
A. Yes; that's right.
MR. DENNEY: No further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, would you think it relevant to ask him whether Milch was there?
MR. DENNEY: Did you see Field Marshal Milch at the meeting?
A That I cannot say; I can give no information on that.
MR. DENNEY: No further questions.
TNE PRESIDENT: Just one matter further: One of my associates suggested that I ask you whether or not you wish to give us the impression that Milch was not present at this meeting?
THE WITNESS: No. Milch was present.
DR. BERGOLD: No further questions.
MR. DENNEY: Who is your next witness?
DR. BERGOLD: If your Honor please, I wish to call as our next witness: Xavor Dorsch.
XAVOR DORSCH, * witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SPEIGHT: Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me:
"I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing."
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SPEIGHT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Please state to the court your first and last name?
A Xavor Dorsch.
Q When were you born?
A 24th of December, 1899.
Q What was your last position in the German Reich?
A I was Chief of the Todt Organization, in the Speer Ministry.
Q On the 28th of December 1943, you signed an affidavit, can you recall?
A Yes, sir.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, this is Exhibit No. 74, Document NOKW 447, in the Document Book Four of the Prosecution.
1361-A The PRESIDENT:
That is on page 151 of the Document Book Four.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, your Honor.
Q Witness, you made the following statement:
"As deputy of Minister Speer in his capacity as Chief of the Todt Organization, I received from Hitler at the end of April 1944 an order to construct with the OT six bombproof fighter factories, of which two should have priority." Can you tell me about the history of this construction?
A Yes, but I must go into detail.
Q Proceed.
AApproximately eight months before this date, I made a suggestion to Minister Speer as to how bombproof factories above around could be built, in this way; not only that they could secure manufacture, but would also be more secure against bomb damage. The source of this idea came from the Todt Organization which had built a similar building for the manufacture of these tools in France. Speer told me that I should take the plans with me on my next visit to the Fuehrer's headquarters, and two weeks later I was with Speer, visiting Hitler, and after other matters had been discussed -- discussions were hold about the Atlantic Wall at that time -- and before going, Speer mentioned this matter and Hitler says: "We must absolutely achieve bombproof aircraft protection and construction for the Luftwaffe because the danger is so great that transportation can be attached, and then we cannot make up the time we have lost." Hitler wanted large-sized, large-scale units, in which planes and fighters could be protected from the beginning to the end, because he saw a danger in the fact that transportation could be Attacked and interrupted, and then the different parts if they were made in various factories could not be assembled any longer.
To said that be imagined the matter roughly as follows: In narrow mountain valleys in Saxonian Switzerland, for example, caves could be dug which would provide these bombproof factory installations. Then Speer said, "Dorsch, or the OT has another suggestion in regard to this matter," and I then submitted to him my plans for the special OT construction, which as I said had already been built in France, and I also showed him the Dutch factories, which, oven as they were being built, were relatively sure against bomb attack.
This was roughly eight months before this date in April on which this commission of which I spoke in my affidavit was given to me. Hitler said to me that it was a matter of indifference to him according to what system these things were built but that it was important to him that something really constructive should be done.
On the next day there was a discussion on the same subject with Goering. Speer's representative, as Plenipotentiary for Construction Matters, and then the Leador of the Main Committee for Construction, Gaertner, were present. I had to explain again the thought behind this special construction which I was proposing. Goering was greatly enthusiastic and said that that was the solution and that the OT should begin immediately with that construction. There upon Speer said, "The OT cannot build these factories because the OT builds only outside the Reich, with the exception of the Ruhr district, and in the Reich itself the Main Committee for Construction should carry out the construction," and for that reason, he had called the two gentlemen I mentioned above. Goering also said that it was indifferent to him who built the factories, that the important thing was that they should be built soon.
In April of 1944 I was visiting Speer at the so-called "Zoiser Alus" near Horan when a call came that I should go immediately to Hitler.
Speer asked me if I had any idea what was afoot, but I did not. I wont immediately to Berchtesgaden, There Hitler asked me, "What has become of your fighter production?" I told him that I did not know precisely because in the Reich the Todt Organization did not do the constructing but another organization. He was greatly 1363-A excited and said roughly that he had heard enough about this other organization, that he did no want it, and he demanded that the Todt Organization should take over that construction immediately.
Then the plans were fetched overnight from Berlin. I explained the whole system to him once more. I told him that I could only carry out these constructions if it were given priority above all other constructions as far as workers, machines, building materials, trucks and so on -- whatever is neede for constructions -- were concerned. I was given assurances that that priority would be given the, and I then took over this construction program.
I was able to assure myself that the Hauptausschuss Bau -- the Main Committee for Construction -- which had been in charge before I took over had begun at three locations constructions. One of those we immediately closed down because both architecturally and, as the Fighter Staff told me, technically, the factory was not any good.
C Witness, you then said that the wish to build these bombproof fighter factories by the Todt Organization was communicated to you by the Fighter Staff. What do you know about that personally?
A I know the following: The Fighter Staff, as far as the entire work of the Plenipotentiary for Construction was concerned, who was responsible for all the constructions in the Reich, was not satisfied with the work. Sauer complained continuously about how work dragged on and asked me repeatedly to step in and do something. He called me to this meetings in the Fighter Staff and asked me to develop further plans. I then was called continuously by other gentlemen.