THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Court has already indicated that it proposes to give you the chance to call this witness and to confront him, if you so desire.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that sufficient?
DR. BERGOLD: That is sufficient, yes.
MR. McMAHON: Then, what is Your Honor's ruling on that point of Walter Neff? May I read his testimony at this time?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. McMAHON: Thank you. This is Document NOKW-452, which appears on page 63 of the English and page 87 of the German book.
THE PRESIDENT: I think it is page 61, Mr. McMahon.
MR. McMAHON:NOKW-452?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
MR. McMAHON: Thank you. This will be offered as Exhibit No. 101:
"Walter Neff, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
"BY JUDGE SEBRING:
"Witness, the Tribunal is now about to put certain questions to you before you are sworn as a witness in this case.
"Q. Do you answer to the name of Walter Neff?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Where do you now live?
"A. In Dachau, Kufsteinerstrasse, No. 2.
"Q. Are you a German national?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Very well. Hold up your right hand and repeat after me the oath: I swear by God, the almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing."
THE PRESIDENT: I think you can skip the next page, Mr. McMahon.
MR. McMAHON: Thank you. I will start down on page 606 of the original. Do you have that, where the question was, "Let us move on now to February of 1942.
When did the high altitude experiments begin in Dachau?"
THE PRESIDENT: That is the middle of page 63?
MR. McMAHON: That is right. Your Honor, and I think page 87 of the German book.
"A. The first high altitude experiments were on 22 February 1942. The so-called low pressure cars had been brought in earlier and dismounted. The exact time when the cars came I don't know.
"Q. Why do you remember the date when first experiments were made in the low pressure chambers so well?
"A. The 22nd of February is my birthday and the tubercular patients made a celebration for me. On that date the experiments started and that is way I remember the date.
"Q. Do you remember that the low pressure chamber arrived in Dachau some days before 22 February 1942?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Now, I am going to have a book brought up to you, and if the Tribunal please, this is a book entitled 'Grundriss der Luftfahrtmedizin' by S. Ruff and S. Stutthof, edition of 1944. I am asking the witness to look at a picture on page 29 and tell the Tribunal if the low pressure chamber, which was in Dachau, was similar to the one shown in this picture.
"(The witness is shown the book).
"A. Yes.
"Q. Mayi t please the Tribunal, I do not care to offer the book in evidence. However, I believe you might like to look at the picture and get some idea of the chamber, so that I am asking that it be passed up.
"(The book is shown to the Tribunal.)
"Q. Witness, was this a moveable low pressure chamber?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Now, who brought the chamber down to Dachau? Do you know?
"A. It was brought into the camp by a coal truck, and Dr. Romberg came with it, and he gave the orders for the assembling and the current.
"Q. Witness, do you know Romberg?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Do you see him in the defendants' box?
"A. Yes."
And then the following I think we can skip and go down to page 611 of the original, page 66, of the English book. It should be about page 90, I think, of the German book.
"Q. Now, let's go back to the high altitude experiments. Will you tell the Tribunal who worked on these experiments?
"A. The experiments were conducted by Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg. Ten prisoners were selected and were taken up to the station as permanent experimental subject; and they were told that nothing would happen to them. In the beginning, the first three weeks, the experiments went off without incident. One day, however, Rascher told me that the next day he was going to make a serious experiment and that he would need sixteen Russians who had been condemned to death, and he received these Russians. Then I told Rasher that I would not help, and I actually got Rascher to send me away to the tubercular ward. On that day I know for certain that Rascher's SS-M Endres or other SS-Men conducted these experiments. Dr. Romberg was not there that day. The SS Man Endres took the Russian prisoners of war to Rascher, and in the evening the parties were taken out. On the next day when I returned to the station, Endres was already there, and he said that two more, two Jews, would be killed. I am quoting what he said. I left the station again, but watched to see who would be taken for the experiments. I saw the first one getting into the car. I could only see his profile. It seemed familiar to me. I know that man worked in the hospital as a tailor. I tried to find out if he was really that man. I went to the place where he worked, and I was told that Endres had just taken the man away. The first person that I informed was Dr. Romberg, whom I met in the corridor. I told Romberg that this was not a person who had been condemned to death, and this was a clear case of murder on the responsibility of Endres. Romberg went with me to see Rascher to clear the matter up, but it was discovered that Endres had put this man in the experimental car because he had refused to make a civilian suit for the SS men.
Rascher sent the man back; Endres went with him and remarked, 'Well, then, you will get an injection today.' I must say that Rascher interfered once more and put the man in safety into the bunker. In the meantime, Endres had brought a second man up, a Czech, whom I knew very well Again it was Romberg together with me who talked to Rascher to stop this experiment or inquire why a man like Endres was simply talking people who had never been condemned to death. Rascher went to the camp commandant, Pirkowsky, who personally came to the station, and Endres was transferred to Lublin immediately."
And now I come to this subject.
Skipping a question and answer:
"Q. Now, witness, before the recess, you had been telling the Tribunal about the high altitude experiments which you stated began on February 22, 1942, and you had related how early in March Rascher had experimented upon some fifteen Russians who were killed, and you stated that neither you nor the defendant Romberg were present on that occasion, and you then had gone on to relate the introduction when the SS man in Dachau named Endres had brought in the tailor at the camp and wanted him to be experimented upon and how you recognized the tailor and interceded with Romberg and had this man returned.
"Now, before you continue with your story, I would like to put some specific questions to you. It is true, is it not, that concentration camp inmates wore experimented on during these high-altitude test experiments?
"A. Yes.
"Q. About how many concentration camp inmates were subjected to these high-altitude experiments?
"A. There were 180 to 200 inmates who were subjected to the highaltitude experiments.
"Q. Now, when, to the best of your recollection, did the high altitude experiments end?
"A. The incident of the idea-- I am afraid I didn't quite get your question. Will you repeat it?
"Q. I am asking you, witness, when the high altitude experiments ended: that is, when they were completed.
"A. During the course of June -- maybe the beginning of July, the low-pressure chambers were transported away. I don't recollect the exact date however..
"Q. And you state that between February 22, 1942 and the end of June, or the beginning of July 1942, approximately 180 to 200 concentration camp inmates were experimented on?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Now, what nationalities were experimental subjects?
"A. I don't know, but I shouldn't think so. I shouldn't think that they made great efforts to get volunteers.
"Q. Now, other than these approximately ten persons who you state presented themselves as volunteers, were all the rest of the experimental subjects simply picked out and brought in and experimented on?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Were any of these prisoners, experimented upon, released from the concentration camp because they underwent the experiments?
"A. There is only one man who was released after the high-altitude experiments.
"Q. And who was that?
"A. An inmate with the name of Zopota(?)."
Now, on page 618 of the original, the question beginning, "Now, witness were any Jews experimented on in these high-altitude experiments?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Now, tell the Tribunal approximately how many prisoners were killed during the course of the high altitude experiments.
"A. During the high altitude experiments seventy to eighty persons were killed.
"Q. Did they experiment on prisoners other than those condemned to death?
A. Yes.
Q. Were any of those prisoners who had not been condemned to death killed during tho course of the high attitude experiments?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Do you have any idea of how many may have been killed?
"A. There could have been approximately forty persons.
"Q. That is, forty persons were killed who had not been condemned to death out of a total of seventy, did you say?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Now, were some of those killed political prisoners?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Is there any way of tolling whether or not a prisoner had been condemned to death; that is, when the experimental subject arrived in the pressure chamber, was there any way to know whether he had been condemned to death?
"A. Once the experimental subject came from the Bunker, that is, as soon as the SS took them out, we could always tell they were prisoners who had been condemned to death. When the inmates were sent by the camp leader, and were brought there by him, then, we could also tell that they were persons who came from the camp and that those were not persons who had been condemned to death."
Now, at the bottom of the page the question:
"Now, did they perform autopsies on any of those bodies, the bodies of the persons who were killed during the high-altitude experiments?
"A. I do not understand your expression, autopsies.
"Q. By autopsies, I mean, did they dissect the bodies of the persons who were killed in the high altitude experiments?
"A. During the, experiments, one autopsy was performed, and that was at ten thousand meters; otherwise, the largest number of the experimental subjects who died were autopsied in the morgue.
"Q. Now, you say they actually performed the autopsy in the low pressure chamber at ten thousand meters?
"A. Yes.
417(a) "Q. Why was that done?
"A. I am too little of an expert in order to express myself properly. I only know that it was said that gas or contain air in the brain will result at high altitudes, and they wanted to determine how the prisoner would react in this high altitude.
Q. Did Romberg assist in this particular autopsy in tho low pressure chamber?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Was this man deliberately killed in the low pressure chamber?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Do you mean to state that he was killed because they wanted to see what effect those particular pressures had on his body; that is, how long they had to continue the pressure until he died?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Did they at times perform autopsies or dissections under water?
"A. Yes.
"Q. You do not remember that they performed dissections under water? You don't remember that?
"A. I am sure that was not done in Dachau, and it really would have been impossible considering the size of the experimental room.
"Q. Do you remember any cases of dissection where the heart continued beating after tho breast had been opened?
"A. Yes. During one autopsy it was found after the breast had been opened and oven after the heart had been opened that the heart was still beating. I knew that exactly because I brought the EKG apparatus into the morgue; and I then recorded this beating heart on the EKG.
This experiment caused many cases of death because many more experiments were made in order to see how long the 418(a) heart of a man could beat who was thus autopsied.
I then had the task of carrying the rolls of the EKG apparatus from the dark room to the window of the morgue.
And coming down now to the question:
"Now, you have stated that there were certain volunteers for these high altitude experiments; and you have also stated that the first experiments were carried out on ten subjects. Were any of those first ten subjects volunteers?
"A. The first ten subjects were not volunteers; and they did not remain at the station only at the beginning but they stayed there during the entire period, that is, for the entire period that the low pressure chamber was there. Every one of these experimental subjects experienced twenty to thirty experiments.
"Now, witness, based upon what you observed and heard at Dachau, can you say that these experiments were conducted for the benefit of the Luftwaffe?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Do you remember seeing any officers of the Luftwaffe visit the experimental station in Dachau?
"A. Certainly. Very frequently high officers of the Luftwaffe, of the SS, and of the Wehrmacht visited the experimental station. However, I can only remember the names of the leading SS men who were there; and I know no name of any Luftwaffe officer who visited the experimental station.
And now coming to the question about seven questions on:
"Q. Now, witness, did you ever hear the name of Erhardt Milch mentioned in connection with these high altitude experiments?
"A. Yes.
"Q. On what occasion?
"A. I had the impression that Romberg tried intentionally to withdraw from these experiments. He was ill on numerous occasions; and he had often left on trips. Of course, the negative thing in that connection was that Rascher had to work all the more. I spoke to Romberg himself and I asked him how long the low pressures should remain; and he said that Milch was going to use them, and he would try to do everything to send them away as quickly as possible. That happened approximately the middle or the end of May. I remember that because this meant the time for me to try to make this chamber harmless."
And now coming down about ten more questions on:
"Q. Now, I understand you to say that the experiments continued after the chamber had been fixed again?
"A. Yes.
"Q. How much longer did they last?
"A. I'm sure it lasted another three weeks.
"Q. Were experimental subjects killed during the last three weeks?
"A. Yes. Rascher killed five persons on the last day. Now on page 626 of the original copy, the question beginning:
"Q. All right. Let's move on to the freezing *** experiments. When did tho freezing experiments start?
"A. During August or at the end of July the first freezing experiments started. They were conducted by Prof. Holzloehner, Dr. Finke and Dr. Rascher. The freezing experiments can be divided into two separate departments. One a series of Holzloehner-Finke which was later excluded and then a series where Dr. Rascher made these experiments himself.
"Q. All right; suppose you describe the experimental basin.
"A. The experimental basin was built of wood. It was two meters long and two meters high. It was about 50 centimeters above the floor and it was in Block No. 5. There were found in tho experimental chamber and basin many lighting instruments and other apparatus which were used in order to carry out measurements.
"Q. Now, you have stated that you can divide the freezing experiments into two group's; one where Holz loehner and Finke were working with Rascher, and then the period after Holzloehner and Finke had left?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Now, will you tell the Tribunal approximately how many persons were used over the whole period? That is, including both groups that you have mentioned.
"A. 280 to 300 experimental subjects were used for these freezing experiments. There were really 360 to 400 experiments that were conducted since many experimental subjects experienced more than one such experiment. Sometimes even 3.
421(a) "Q. Now, out of the total of 280 or 300 prisoners used approximately how many of them died?
"A. As a result of these freezing experiments approximately 80 to 90 subjects died.
"Q. Now, hew many experimental subjects do you remember that they used in the Holzloehner-Finke-Rascher experiments?
"A. During that period of time approximately 50 to 60 subjects were used for experimental purposes.
"Q. Did any of these experimental subjects die?
"A. Yes. During that period of time there were about 15, maybe even 18 cases of death.
"Q. When was the experimental series concluded?
"A. It was concluded in the month of October. I think it was at the end of October. At that time Holzloehner and Finke discontinued these experiments giving the reason that they had accomplished their purpose and that it was useless to carry out further experiments of that kind.
"Q. And then Rascher continued experiments on his own?
"A. Yes. Then Rascher conducted these experiments giving the reasons that he had to build a scientific basis for them and he prepared a lecture for University Marburg on that subject."
On, skipping, a question:
"Q. Now, were the experimental subjects for the freezing experiments selected in the same way as for the high-altitude experiments?
"A. No. Here Rascher turned to the camp administration and told them that he needed so and so many experimental subjects. Then the political department of the camp selected ten inmates by name. That list was sent to the Camp Commander and was signed by the Camp Commander and they were then sent to Rascher's station and the subjects on that list had to be experimented on. The original list I could use as evidence material in the first Dachau trial as evidence.
"Q. Now do I understand then that the experimental subjects used in this freezing experiments were political prisoners?
"A. There were certainly a number of political prisoners and also a number of foreigners, but certainty there were also prisoners of war and also inmates who had been condemned to death.
"Q. These persons were not volunteers were they?
"A. No.
"Q. Now suppose you describe to the Tribunal exactly how these freezing experiments were carried out, that is what tests they made, how they measured the temperature and how the temperature of the water was lowered in the basin and so forth?
"A. These basins were filled with water and ice was added until the water measured three degrees, and the experimental subjects were either dressed in a flying suit or were placed into the ice water in a naked state. During the period when Holzloehner and Finke were active most experiments were conducted under narcotics while during the Rascher period he had always rejected narcotics, because he maintained that you could not find the exact condition of the blood, and that you would exclude the will power of the experimental subject if he was under anesthetic. Now whenever the experimental subjects were conscious it took sometime until so-called freezing narcosis set in. The temperature was measured rectally and through the stomach through the Galvanometer apparatus. The sinking down of the temperature until 32 degrees was a terrible plight for the experimental subject. At 32 degrees the experimental subject lost consciousness. These persons were frozen down to 25 degrees body temperature, and now in order to enable you to understand this problem, I should like to tell you something about the Holzloehner and Finke period. During the period when Holzloehner and Finke were active, no experimental subject was actually killed in the water. The death cases only occurred at that time during the revival or rather during the re-warning. The temperature was further cooled down which caused the heart failure, and this also occurred because of the flight therapy so that in contrast to the low pressure chamber experiments, it has to be said here that the death victims in the Finke-Holzloehner period were not in the basin having their full consciousness, while in the air pressure chamber each death case cannot be considered as an accident, but as wilfull murder. However, it was different when Rascher personally took over these experiments.
At that time a large number of the persons involved were kept in the water for so long a time until they were dead."
And two questions further on:
424(a) "Q. Do you recall the occasion when two Russian officers were experimented upon in the freezing experiments?
"A. Yes.
"Q. Will you relate that incident to the Tribunal?
"A. Yes. It was the worst experiment which was over carried out. From the bunker two Russian, officers were carried out. We were forbidden to speak to them. They arrived in the afternoon at approximately 4 o'clock. Rascher had them undressed and they had to go into the basin in a naked state. Hour after hour passed and when usually after a short time, 60 minutes, the freezing would have set in, these two Russians were still conscious even after two hours. All of our appeals to Rascher asking him to give them an injection was without purpose. Approximately in the third hour one Russian said to the other: 'Comrade, tell that officer that he may shoot us.' Then the other one replied, 'Don't expect any mercy from this Fascist dog.' Then both shock hands and they said, 'Goodbye, Comrade.' And how can one imagine that we inmates also had to be witnesses of such a death and could do nothing against it, then you can really estimate how terrible it is to be condemned to work in such an experimental station. After these words, which were translated to the Russians by a young Polo in a somewhat different form, Rascher went back into his office. The young Pole immediately tried to give them an anesthetic with chloroform, but Rascher returned immediately. He threatened us with a pistol, and he said, 'Don't dare interfere and approach these victims.' The experiment lasted at least five hours until death set in.
Both corpses were sent to Munich for autopsy in the Schwabisches Hospital there.
"Q. Witness, how long did it normally take to kill a person in these freezing experiments?
"A. The length of the experiment varied, according to the individual case. It always varied considering the fact whether 425(a) the subject was clothed or unclothed.