THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. You testified as a witness before the International Military Tribunal on behalf of the defendant Goering, did you not?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And in the course of your testimony before the Tribunal you stated that you were the second highest officer in the Air Force?
A. Yes, that was my rank.
Q So that the only one who ranked you was Goering?
A. Yes.
Q. And that continued up until the time when you told us this morning that you completely withdrew, which, I believe was sometime in January of 1945?
A. Yes. May I remark here that since 1937 several officers were in the second place. That is to say, the Chief of the General Staff, the Chief of the Personnel Office, and also the GL. We were all of the same rank, as it were, but I was the most senior officer among them.
Q. And under Goering there were really four eschelons; that is the Chief of Staff, the Inspector General, the Generalluftseugmeister, and the Director of the Personnel Office?
A. Yes. They were all equal to each other.
Q. Goering was on top, and then came these four in a parallel line below him; is that right?
A. Yes, under Goering.
Q. And you, from 1941, November, following Udet's death until sometime in the middle of 1944, held both the office of Generalluftseugmeister and Inspector General?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, during the first trial you testified -- again I am speaking of the International Military Tribunal -- you testified that the first knowledge you had of concentration camps, other then the two, Dachau and Oranienburg, occurred following your capture?
A. Yes.
Q. And prior to that time, prior to the time you were captured, you know nothing about the conditions in concentrations camps?
A. I described very carefully at the time, as I did here, what I saw in my one and only visit to a concentration camp. That was Dachau.
Q. That visit, as I recall, was made in approximately 1935?
A. As far as I recall it, yes.
Q. Now, when did you first learn that concentration camp inmates were being employed in the Luftwaffe?
A. I can not give you the date here. It was their use in the Heinkel factory in Oranienburg. That factory was a few kilometers away from the concentration camp. The factory did not report this to us at first, but it became clear as time went on. As far as I know, the chief of my technical office reported it in one of the conferences, but I could not know whether that was in 1943 or the beginning of 1944.
Q. It would have been '42?
A. I am unable to say that, but I hardly think it was so early that concentration camp inmates were used and supplied for our work, but I am afraid I cannot really say precisely.
Q. Now, when did you first learn about foreign laborers being employed in the German war economy?
A. When in 1941 I became G.L. I found that foreign workers and prisoners of war were working in factories.
Q. Did you ever get any reports on the numbers of prisoners of war and foreign workers who were working in Germany?
A. The total figure I saw only in 1944 when on the 1st of March we made this list with Sauckel. As I recall it that was the first time that I saw the total figures. There are single detail figures which might have cropped up earlier, of course, but statistically speaking which the G.L. drew up, the figures were always mentioned which were reported to us by the industry.
Q. So, as far as you recall, the first time that you saw any large number of figures with reference to foreign labor and prisoners of war was in 1944, maybe in connection with the chart which you described just the other day?
A. That is low I recall it now.
Q. Do you recall speaking to one of the judges the other day about the situation of the Polish workers in Germany?
A. Yes, I recall that occasion.
Q. And you stated that there were isolated instances in which Polish people were mistreated, if I recall?
A. No, all I said was I can well imagine that people misbehave at times and equally that people mistreat other people. I do not know a concrete instance myself, but I talk about cases when I saw Poles myself.
Everything was in order.
Q. Well, you weren't familiar then with the treatment which was expressed by Governor General Frank in a letter to Sauckel of 21 November, 1943?
A. No, I do not know that letter.
MR. DENNEY: This, your Honors, is Document 908 PS, and I am just quoting in part from it now to see whether or not it recalls anything to the witness.
Q. "The recruiting of Poles for the Mobilization of labor in the Reich takes place unconditionally; in the assignment to their work they have no personal say. Their obligation to work in the Reich is unlimited in regard to time. Even in the case of serious family reasons they have no guarantee for a return to their homeland. Therefor for the Poles employment in the Reich has essentially the charactteristics of a restriction of freedom, similar to imprisonment.
"The regulation of 5 October, 1941, with reference to the application of labor laws to the treatment of Polish laborers places them outside the community of the factory. No obligation for social care exists beyond the purpose of maintaining their capacity to work."
And then over a little farther he says, "According to the regulations of 51 March 1943 on leave of absence for civilian workers (male and female) of Polish extraction employed in the Reich, the rights of Poles to leave of absence and family trips home are not in effect at present. According to the Reich wages and hours law issued for them, the Polish farm workers have no claim whatsoever to leave of absence. In case of an exceptional permission for a temporary return to the homeland only to me without pay may be granted.
"In the past two years a number of especially efficient Polish workers were permitted to go home on leave in order to give an incentive for greater efficiency to those Poles whose work is not satisfactory; but the number of furloughs was so limited that most of the Poles now working their fourth year in the Reich have not yet had the privilege of home leave.
"Civil litigation arising from contracts of employment with Polish labor shall not come under the jurisdiction of Labor courts. The Poles do not have the privilege of protection through agencies of the state as is the case in regard to other foreigners. Only the possibility of obtaining a settlement by arbitration through the office of the Employment Service exists for them.
"According to the police order by the Reich Minister of the Interior of 8 March 1940, all civilian workers of Polish nationally extraction are compelled to have the distinguishing mark "P" attached to all their clothing. We knew from experience that the Poles regard this a particularly degrading regulation.
"The Poles are forbidden to take part in church services for two German population and visit any churches. Up to now it has not been permitted to send Polish clergymen to the Reich to organize their own services. Because of the pronounced religious feeling of the Poles according to their Roman Catholic faith, this lack of spiritual care is of tremendous significance. I causes parents in the Government-General to prevent their children from leaving the country.
"In addition, the attitude of the clergy to the Mobilization of labor in the Reich is strongly affected and the population is very much under its influence."
Then it goes on a little further and says, "Poles who were transported to the Reich under the Mobilization of Labor and who are permanently incapable of working because of insanity, and are in need cf care in an institution, are no longer taken back to their homeland." Did you ever hear anything about this particular decree having to do with Polish workers?
A. No, this is quite unknown to me. As far as I know we are in our industry had no Polish workers, at least I know nothing about it.
Q. So far as you know you never had any Polish people working in the Luftwaffe?
A. I never saw anyone there and therefore am unable to say anything. As far as I know they were usually working in the country.
Q. In the country?
A. In the country, yes. There I saw Poles at the end of the war, and that is what I described previously to the Court the other day.
Q. Now, about prisoners of war, what kinds of prisoners of war did you know were working in Germany?
A. I know of French and Russian prisoners of war.
Q. You didn't know about any others?
A. I cannot recall anything at the moment. As far as I know Norwegian, Belgian, Dutch and also Polish prisoners of war were also released immediately. From Greece and countries like that I saw nobody, and at the end I know that Italian prisoners of war, the so-called Imi's, worked in Germany on as all scale, but what I saw, our own Luftwaffe industry, were Frenchmen and a small number of Russians. Of course, it is quite possible that some others were used, but I couldn't say at this moment of what nationality. That would have been another question.
I didn't recall to have seen any.
Q. I am going to land you a letter from Sauckel to you, together with an acknowledgment from you to Sauckel. The letter is dated 1 April, 1943, and your acknowledgment is dated 7 April, 1943.
MR. DENNEY: The court will recall that he said he never had any communications from Sauckel.
Q. (Continuing) And in addition enclosed with this is a speech which Sauckel gave in Posen on the 5th and 6th of February, 1943, and on Page 17 of the original there are some rather interesting figures.
MR. DENNEY: It will take a little time to get the copies. I believe on the German copy, Dr. Bergold, the letters appear at the end. that is on the photostatic copies. You have the whole speech, but we are only interested in the two letters and the two excerpts from the speech.
If Your Honor pleases, I ask that this be marked Exhibit 132 for identification. This is a letter, dated 1 April 1943. The writer of the letter is Sauckel, and the letter is addressed to the defendant.
"Most honored Field Marshal, "I take the liberty of enclosing in confidence three copies of the speech I gave in Posen an 5th and 6th February 1943, on the occasion of the Reich and Gauleiters meeting and beg you kindly to peruse it.
The figures contained in this speech refer to the end of the year 1942. Of course, the figures given concerning utilization of labor have again increased in the meantime. I would ask for your continued sympathetic understanding of the interests of manpower utilization, and your understanding and assistance in my task as far as possible. On my side, I can assure you that I always have asked the offices of the labor supply administration subordinate to me for close and successful cooperation with all departments and that I will do so for the future too."
"With Heil Hitler, yours respectfully, Sauckel."
And, on the 7th, the last page, the defendant acknowledge receipt of this letter: "Most esteemed Gauleiter, "I think you most cordially for kindly transmitting to me the speech you made in Posen on 5th and 6th February 1943 on the occasion of the Reich and Gauleiters meeting.
Heil Hilter! Yours."
That is addressed to Sauckel, Berlin W 8, Hohrenstrasse 65, and of particular interest is paragraph 2 on page 1.
THE PRESIDENT: The other way around, Mr. Denney.
MR. DENNEY: Paragraph 1 on page 2.
THE PRESIDENT: That's right.
MR. DENNEY: Yes; I'm sorry.
"According to the Fuehrer's decree of March 21st, 1942, the Plenipotentiary General for the Employment of Labor has the task, within the scope of the tasks of the Plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, the Reich Marshal of Greater Germany, party member Hermann Goering, of securing the necessary manpower for the entire war economy and particularly for the armament industry. He must guarantee a uniform method, adapted to the requirements of war economy, of controlling the utilization of all available manpower including hired foreigners and prisoners of war, as well as the mobilization of all manpower still untapped in Greater Germany, including the Protectorate, and also in the Government-General and in the occupied territories."
Those two terms, as Your Honors know, in the first place refer to Bohemia and Moravia, and in the second, to Poland, and then, on page 11, paragraph 4, there is a recapitulation with reference to employed workmen and employees in World War I. June 1914 shows that they had a total of ten million, seven hundred odd thousand. In December of the same year they had seven million four hundred odd thousand. In September 1918 they had eight million eight hundred odd thousand. In those figures, they refer to men and women. Then, in the following page, they speak of the present war, the number of people employed - in June 1939, 25 million, two hundred odd thousand men and women; November 1942, 28 million, five hundred odd thousand, both men and women. And then on page seven there is a list of foreign workers employed according to their nationaliities, and that list is broken up into prisoners of war on the one hand, and workers on the other. The workers listed are Belgians, 131,000; French 135,000; Italians, 200,000; Jugoslavs, 54,000; Croates, 64,000; Dutch, 154, 000; Hungarians, 31,000; Protectorate, Bohemia and Moravia, 193,000; in the General Government, which is Poland, 896,000; Estonians and Latvians, 30,000; Protective Power, 501,000; Eastern workers, 1,350,000; other foreigners, 275,000. Prisoners of war - Belgians 55,000 all these numbers are approximate, again, as are those listed under "Workers." - French, 932,000; English, 45, 000; Jugoslavs, 101,000; Poles, 33,000; Russians, 488,000;
others, 4,000.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Do you recall receiving them from Sauckel on April 1st, 1943?
A No; I was not here for a few days at the beginning of April - I saw his remark, by somebody else, on this document. It probably says - can't read it very well probably something about the files of the Central Planning Board. Perhaps this letter may have been submitted to me later on. Nor do I know whether I replied myself. I certainly did not read the report 2083 a because otherwise I would be able to recall the figures.
Q. But you did initial tho letter, didn't you?
A. I do not know. I do not recall it at all. It must have boon submitted to me because I put my i *I on it. As far as tho figures are concerned, I can't, of course, say anything about them. I see that prisoners of war wore mainly French and Russians, whereas the figures concerning Poland and Belgium were only a fraction of the actual prisoners, and, as far as I am concerned, I knew that those two nations will had prisoners of war in Germany.
Q. Did you get any other reports from Sauckel about labor?
A. I cannot recall a single one at this moment, but I may add, I did not say that Sauckel occasionally sent reports to me. I, personally, quite apart from the Central Planning Board, did not negotiate with Sauckel, because Sauckel did not come and see me, nor did I go to see him. I know certainly that I do not know where Sauckel's office was. When, if he had it in the Labor Ministry, where Minister Seldte was in office, all I can say is that I never went there.
Q. Where was Mehrenstrasse, M-E-H-R-E-N-S-T-R-A-S-S-E, in Berlin?
A. That was in central Berlin.
Q. Well, even if you didn't know where his office was, somebody found the address for you and sent the letter off?
A. Yes; of course. It was quite well known. Only I didn't know it, because I didn't take any interest.
Q. Do you notice the figure on there in English, "45,000"?
A. One moment. Yes, yes, I see here, 45,000.
Q. I suppose English are listed as employed foreign workers; isn't that it?
A. All I can imagine here is that perhaps they worked in the forests, or something like that, because if prisoners of war volunteered for that, they could be given work of that nature, but I know very well that in the armament industry of the Luftwaffe, there were no English workers, because I would have noticed that immediately when I paid a visit.
Q. And, as long as were on the subject of the Luftwaffe, you also say there no Americans that ever worked there?
A. No; never, because, under the Geneva Convention, which was concluded with those two countries, and which had not been renounced by a treaty, as in the case of France, it was forbidden.
MR. DENNEY: On the copy that Your Honors have, I believe it's apparent up in the upper lefthand corner of the first page, the defendants initials appear there, as well as on the original letter.
We are sending for the original and it will be apparent from that that the same pencil which was used on the outside was also used to make some marks on the inside of the speech.
Q. You have said that you were interested in seeing the foreigners who were working be well treated in order that they would produce as much as possible for the German war economy?
A. I did not send workers myself but whenever there was an opportunity we pointed out that these people would be well fed, because we said somebody who doesn't eat well cannot work well.
Q. And you certainly tried to give them as good treatment as you gave the German workers?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. And the 84-hour week had been ordered by you at the beginning of the war, had it not?
A. Not by me, but it was ordered quite generally at the time. The decision of how many hours should be worked was not within the power of the Air Ministry, but the office of labor Assignment. That was not Sauckel at that time, when war broke out, but the Reich Minister of Labor.
Q. How was that 84-hour week broken up? Was it seven 12-hour days or six 14-hour days?
A. Six days, eight hours. Each weekday eight hours as far as I know. Those were the normal working hours in peacetime. I believe there were factories which, on certain days apart from Saturday, worked eight hours and a half, and therefore on Saturdays closed down at lunchtime. Whether they were able to do so under their own initiative or by permission from the Ministry of Labor I am unable to say.
Q. Perhaps you did not understand my first question. Maybe the interpreters reversed the figures. Didn't you order an 84-hour week at the beginning of the war?
A. I was not in a position to order it.
Q. Well, in any event in the letter yesterday which Dr. Bergold submitted to you, which is NOKW-287, it appears on page 101 of Document Book 2-C, a letter addressed to the Plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, General Plenipotentiary for Labor Assignment, the third paragraph, it says, "In the field of the Air Force industry I already ordered at the beginning of the war the 84-hour week for these sectors so that no further increase can be made with those working hours, for otherwise there would be an increase of illness which would bring about a further unwarranted weakening in the numbers of personnel."
Do you recall that?
A. No, there must be a mistake somewhere. At the beginning of the war I was not in that position, at the beginning of the war. An 84-hour week I think was quite impossible. I think it is cut of the question. I think that figure I recall vaguely from the time of the Jaegerstab and that is much too much. Nobody could work that long. And at the beginning of the war it is quite impossible that that existed.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney?
MR. DENNEY: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I think this exhibit will have to be Number 133.
MR. DENNEY: 133? Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: The letter of George Scapini was 132.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir.
Q. (By Mr. Denney) Now, do you ever recall saying that you would put the German workers into concentration camps, the ones who did not work well?
A. When I talked about slackers, I referred to education by Himmler, but not of sending them into concentration camps, but Himmler had other training places for workers where such people who were disciplined to work were being trained by making their supplementary rations dependent on their production.
Q. Don't you recall that you asked that certain camps be set up to especially take care of these German workers who weren't doing well?
A. I said not that we should make a special camp, but they should go to the training camps which already existed and we could get them back from there. I do wish to emphasize here these are people, Germans, who did not do their duty towards their fatherland.
Such people I thought it was justified to educate them.
Q Did you know a man named Brueckner?
A Yes.
Q What was his job?
A He was with the chief of my planning office. Originally, as far as I know, ho came from the army and he took care of statistics and personnel questions.
Q Don't you recall asking him whether or not camps had been set up for these people?
A No, I can not recall that. I spoke with him very rarely because quite generally his chief reported to me; that is to say, the chief of the planning office.
Q Well, you knew around the middle of 1942, did you not, that Sauckel had brought a substantial number of foreign workers to Germany; as a matter of fact, over a million?
A. I am certain I did not know that at the time because Sauckel at that time had just taken over office and at that time I was not interested in those questions personally because I had quite enough to do as I had to direct armament by the end of 1941, and I could not interfere in all these very difficult questions of technical processes. I was unable at the time to see what these four thousand people who were on our records did and so forth. At first they were four thousand; later on they were two thousand four hundred people who worked. They work and write an awful lot and that makes it necessary to write many replies. Overworked as I was, I was unable to take note of everything; that would have teen quite impossible. I was quite glad if the things which reached me would be passed on to the people who had to work on it.
Q So you didn't know in the middle of 1942 that Sauckel had already brought over a million workers to Germany?
A No, I do not recall anything there. Sauckel may have said so; that's quite possible, but I did not recall it. I did not make note of it.
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Q. Now, what was your attitude on these foreign labor contracts? What did you think about then?
A. I never saw the contracts nor did I know them.
Q. Well, didn't you have something to do with extending these foreign labor contracts?
A. personally, certainly not. That we made a statement on that score, that they should be extended, for instance, is quite possible, but it was not our task to make contracts or extend contracts.
Q. Well, you don't know then whether or not there was anything that had to do with the compulsory extension of these contracts?
A. I am unable to recall a detail of that sort at this moment.
Q. You knew in 1942 that these concentration camp workers were available, didn't you?
A. As I said before, I don't recall that year. I don't think I knew that particular year.
Q. You knew that Himmler could deal with people outside the law, didn't you?
A. What he did and whether that was within or without the law I did not know as a positive fact, nor was I informed as to the type of people who were in concentration camps at the time. My sole knowledge comes from 1935.
Q. In other words, except for what you saw in 1935 and what you learned after the war, you did not know anything about who went into concentration camps?
A. I knew that they existed, of course. As I said, I only knew the names of those two. That there would be others, although I didn't know where or how, is quite possible. The term concentration camp was used quite often in Germany because it moved everybody. But I had no knowledge of the conditions there and what they looked like.
Q And you didn't know who went into them...?
A In my view, people who had opposed and offended against Germany's interests... That is to say, apart from criminal - in the legal sense; political prisoners.
Q Did you know that they sent foreigners to them?
A It had not come to my knowledge at the time.
Q You never knew that until after the war was over?
A I heard that after the war, yes. I didn't see it, but I only heard about it.
Q Do you recall at any time making a statement about shooting or beating or hanging workers, other than the ones that have already been testified to here in Court, either through statements or documents?
A I do not recall that at this moment, but it is quite possible, but in tho same sense as I did at the time.
Q How many people used to go to the Jaegerstab meetings?
A That depended, and varied. I can recall there were conferences of about twenty people. At the beginning there sometimes were less, usually, and sometimes there were more. When the conferences were held in Tempelhof, they were bigger , tho attendance was bigger. It is quite possible that perhaps it went up to fourty people, but at that time I seldom attended.
Q Well, at those general Luftzeugmeister meetings how many people were there?
A I should say between thirty and forty; there may have been a conference with more but that would have been about a special question. But there were a great many conferences attended by less than thirty people. I never counted them; I can only make an estimation. Also, there was a coming and going. Some people attended at first that left later on for their work, and others came in. The same applied, of course, to the Jaegerstab.
Q Now, about the prisoners of war. You said the only Italians that you recalled were some so-called Minis or Imis...
A No, at this moment I know of none else.
Q How many of those were there; do you recall?
A No idea. I never knew it.
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Q. Do you recall what the living conditions which you advocated were for these foreign laborers?
A. That depended, I suppose. When I paid visits and when I put questions to then the replies would show that everything was in order. But sometimes there were complaints from other sources that food was insufficient or that clothes weren't good enough --particularly, shoes were lacking; and there were cases when we parsed on a recommendation to correct these things.
Q. Yon don't ever recall tolling people that, or saying that the workers should sleep in the factories?
A. That had become necessary with the Jaegerstab as all the apartments had been destroyed and, actually, German and foreign workers lived in special rooms in the factory itself, provided always, of course, that the factory was still standing and was not destroyed. Whereas the dwellings and the hones of those people had been destroyed. In the Ministry, a largo part of our people slept in their offices because their flats in Berlin had been destroyed by bombs. That was quite a normal, if regrettable, state of affairs.
Q. You don't recall getting men from Himmler in 1943?
A. It is quite possible. At this moment I do not know what this is supposed to be about.
Q. Well, concentration camp people ...
A. Yes; but I mean, for what purposes; where was this? And to whom it was addressed?
Q. Well, it would have to do with something that you were interested in if you wore getting people from Himmler for the Air Force industry.
A. I am unable to say anything about this at this time because I don't know the process.
Q. Do you recall the orders that you gave in the event that there were any uprisings in the factories by these foreign workers?