Q.- Your records show you were only weighed on the first, third, fifth and seventh days and that you weren't weighed on the second, fourth and sixth day or the eighth day. Now, if Dr. Beiglboeck's records are sufficient -
A.- I was sick.
Q.- Then you weren't weighed every day, were you?
A.- My friends were weighed every day. I saw it.
Q.- You told us you were weighed every day. Now, you weren't, were you?
A.- As long as I was not sick yet in the preliminary period I was weighed every day.
Q.- Then you were not weighed the days you were sick?
A.- On the day when I was sick I was not weighed.
Q.- You really don't know what days you were weighed, do you?
A.- Always in the morning.
Q.- Well, on the day that you were sickest, which was the third day, you were Weighed that day and you weighed 501/2 kilograms. Is that right? The days that you weren't sick, the second and the fourth and the sixth, you wore not weighed. Then you were sick again on the seventh day -- considerably high temperature up to 39 -- and you were weighed again then and weighed 49.3 kilos; so you actually don't know when you were weighed, do you?
A.- I was weighed when I came in to the experiment and I fell sick on about the third day. I don't know exactly when but I was weighed every day and afterwards I got a fever. I can't exactly when,
MR. HARDY: I point out, Your Honor, in document, Beiglboeck Exihibit No. 34, the charts A9, B9 and C9 are the charts pertaining t this witness and they indicate that the witness was only weighed on Chart A9 on the first 'ay of the experiment, the third day of the experiment, the fifth day of the experiment and the seventh day of the experiment. The witness also testified in direct that he had unrinalysis each day and there is no record of that here.
Q.- Now, you say that any deaths were absolutely out of question in the sea water experiments?
A.- I saw all my comrades after the experiment.
Q.- Somebody could have died after you left Dachau without your knowing about it. Is that possible?
A.- That's possible. I don't know. I wasn't there any more.
Q.- How many men were unable to walk at the completion of the experiments?
A.- They could all walk. They were all sent back to the blocks.
Q.- Are you certain of that?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Other witnesses tell us that some of them couldn't walk. You don't agree with them?
A.- No.
Q.- You saw all 44 subjects, saw each one of them yourself?
A.- Yes.
Q.- You didn't see any of them being carried out on stretchers to the hospital barracks for treatment?
A.- No. Maybe afterwards when I wasn't in Dachau any more. I would not know.
Q.- You didn't see any of them helping the others go out of the experimental station -- that is, one holding, up another simply because they were so sick they couldn't walk by themselves?
A.- Well, they were pretty weak, yes, but I never saw that anybody couldn't walk.
Q Did some of these gypsies return to work immediately after the experiments were completed?
A When they were sent back from the experimental station to the blocks, I was in the camp only two or three days then I left. I don't know anything about it. But during the two or three days when I was in the camp, nobody had to work.
Q Do you know whether or not Laubinger went directly to work!
A Laubinger was in my block. He was sent to Block 22. I gave him some bread there.
Q Why didn't he go to the hospital?
A Why should he go to the hospital, he wasn't sick.
Q He was very weak, wasn't he?
A Yes, but not so weak that he had to go to the hospital.
Q He was afraid to go to the hospital? He actually was afraid to o to the hospital, was he not?
A No. The hospital in Dachau was very good. The treatment was very good. He didn't have to be afraid. I myself had been in the hospital. I was treated very well.
Q you really don't know what his attitude was, do you, you didn't talk to him about it?
A No.
Q What group was he in in the experiments?
AAs far as I remember, he was in the same group as I was. He was in the bed next to me.
Q What did he drink?
A I am not sure what he drank. He only told me that he had to drink sea water. He was given dextrose and something called SchokaKola.
Q Did he get sick?
A Yes. When we left Auschwitz he had a carbuncle on his eye; aid then in the preliminary period, he had some kind of an inflammation of the eye all the time.
Q Do you know when Dr. Beiglboeck left Dachau?
A No.
Q How often was Dr. Beiglboeck at the experimental station?
A He was there all day. He just went away to eat. He wasn't there at night, but the nurses were there at night and some French medical students who were on night duty.
Q What time did Dr. Beiglboeck leave in the evening?
A That varied. Sometimes after the evening roll call, sometimes at seven o'clock. That varied.
Q But he was never there during the late hours of the evening?
A I don't remember. After the roll call I had to go back to the hospital. I had to go to bed.
Q Now, in summation, witness, you stated that each experimental subject volunteered for the experiment, is that correct?
A Yes. We all said that we were willing.
Q You are certain of that?
A Yes.
Q Have you ever testified as a witness before a court before?
A On this subject, you mean?
Q On any subject.
A No, I have never been a witness.
Q Do you know the significance of an oath?
A Yes.
Q You swear that you are telling the truth here on this stand?
A Yes.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honors.
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant Counsel have any redirect examination?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Witness, the gypsies whom you mentioned, where they all able to read and write?
A No, most of them could not read or write.
Q Most of them could not read or write. And then before you were put in the concentration camp, were other relatives of yours in the concentration camp?
A Yes, my whole family. My father and my five brothers and sisters, they all died in Auschwitz.
Q Then you were the only one still at liberty?
A Yes, I am the only one of my family.
Q Where were you working?
A In a dynamite company in Fuerth. In Stabern near Fuerth.
Q Then you were arrested and interrogated by the Gestapo. What charges did the Gestapo make?
A They asked me about the work, and they said that I had been involved in deals with foreigners who worked there; and several times I failed to go to work, I had been convicted once for breach of work contract, and they took me to the police prison here, and five days later I was sent to the concentration camp.
Q When you met Hollenrainer and Reinhardt, did they tell you that three days after the experiments were finished someone died.
A No, Hollenrainer and Reinhardt always said nobody died. I asked them especially whether anybody died.
Q Do you know how the station was dissolved, or did it remain in existence?
A No, it was dissolved. I can remember some of my conrades helped Professor Beiglboeck to clean up the station.
Q Did they tell you that anybody died?
A No, I asked about that. I saw all of them afterwards. The Germans in the camp always asked about it because they were interested.
Q The Prosecutor asked you about a person named Adler. Is that a German name or a Polish name?
AAdler is obviously a German name. There are many gypsies named Adler. They are all Germans.
Q Are Gypsies in the habit of keeping birth certificates and so on with them very carefully?
Do all gypsies always know where they belong?
A Well, many people don't know when they were born, or where they were born because they were horn in a cart on the road; and most of them didn't go to school, they don't know how to read and write. T here are very few who know how to read and write.
Q How about your urine, was it taken daily? You have to tell us about that because apparently something was not entered in the record.
A We had a urine glass that was a kind of museum, and in the back there was a big table. Every day in the morning, we had to put the urine glasses on the table. D uring the night it was collected, and we had to put the glass on the table in the morning, and either the nurse or some Frenchman weighed them or something I don't know what he did - he measured it, how much it was. I think he measured the liters.
Q The urine was collected daily then?
A Yes, and the stool was collected daily, too. The stool was weighed daily.
DR. STEINBAUER: I have no further questions.
MR. HARDY: I have two more questions, Your Honors.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q How many of these experimental subjects received the sea water by a stomach tube?
A I know nothing about that.
Q You actually don't know anything about the experiments a.s to the technical nature of them, how they were conducted, whether or not punctures were performed, and whether or not any of the inmates received sea. water by a stomach tube?
A No, I didn't see that.
MR. HARDY: No further questions.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: If there are no more questions to be propounded, the witness Mettbach is excused.
THE WITNESS: May I sit in the audience now, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may apply for a pass to the office where the passes are issued, but he will have to get his pass and enter the gallery by that method.
TEE WITNESS: Thank you.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr, President, I should like to conclude the Beiglboeck case, and state that the weight chart, which is number 23, which I showed the gentlemen in the course of cross examination because my client has the photostatic copies of all the fever charts; and I would like to prepare a new chart from these original curves which will show exactly the weight variations in each case, when he thought the person drank water, and the water, and the blooc. These charts do not show this exactly.
MR. HARDY: This chart that has been draw up, I wonder whether Dr. Steinbauer intends to offer that in evidence.
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, I will offer this chart as an exhibit then.
MR. HARDY: Well, I object to the admission of that chart into evidence inasmuch as it was a chart that was draw in this Nurnberg jail by the defendant, based on documents which have been altered. Furthermore, the charts and the books have gone over that thoroughly in the course of the cross examination of the defendant and the direct examination of the expert, Ivy. I see no reason for the charts to be further draw up by the defendant inasmuch a.s he has amply testified concerning the matter, and I don't think the charts would be accurate that he would draw up at this time. T he probative value would be deeply in question, and I object to the admission of such evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: What would be the purpose of this chart? Would it b be added to the record which is already before the Tribunal?
DR. STEINBAUER: I don't want to submit this as an exhibit. I want to use it in the trial brief to explain the point of view of the defense to the Tribunal.
The exhibit remains, the fever chart. This is just an explanation.
THE PRESIDENT: In the preparation of his trial brief counsel may include anything which he deems relevant and pertinent which will be of assistance in understanding the record as counsel contends it exists. Of course, everything in the brief must be based upon evidence which is before the Tribunal. Counsel understands that.
DR. STEINBAUER: Then I will withdraw this chart which I have offered in evidence as Number 23.
INTERPRETER VON SCHON: Your Honor, there seems to be something wrong with the earphones in the defendants' dock. The technician suggests that we take a recess of a few minutes.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, Dr. Steinbauer is finished with his witness in his case Beiglboeck and the next case coming up will be the defendant Hoven. We could adjourn until 1:30 and with defendant Hoven's case start fresh at that time.
THE PRESIDENT: I would ask the Marshal that during the noon recess he will take up the matter of the consultation between counsel for defendant Hoven and defendant Hoven for security and arrange unobjectionable security. It is the wish of the Tribunal that counsel consults his client Hoven this evening and tomorrow morning if he desires.
In view of the trouble with the transmission system the Court will now be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal reconvened at 1330 hours, 21 June 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
May it please Your Honors, defendant Pokorny is absent, having been excused by the Tribunal. The defendant Oberheuser and the defendant Gebhardt are absent due to illness, having been excused by the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has a certificate signed by Captain Martin, surgeon in U.S. Army, stating that defendant Oberheuser and defendant Gebhardt should be excused this afternoon on account of illness. They are excused from attendance before the Tribunal this afternoon. The Secretary General will file the doctor's certificate with the record.
Counsel may proceed.
DR. STEINBAUER (For the defendant Beiglboeck): Mr. President, having heard the witness Mettbach, I have concluded my case for the defendant Beiglboeck.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, counsel. The Tribunal now calls the case against the defendant Hoven, Is counsel ready? Is counsel ready to proceed?
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the defendant Hoven): Yes. Mr. President, let me first recall to the Tribunal the fact that in the case of the defendant Dr. Hoven I have already heard the witnesses Piekk, Dr. Horn, and Dorn. As further evidence, and in further pursuance of this case, I ask permission to call the defendant Hoven to the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: At the request of his counsel the defendant Waldemar Hoven will take the witness stand.
(WALDEMAR HOVEN, a defendant, took the stand and testified as follows.)
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q. The defendant will please raise his right hand and be sworn, repeating after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the defendant Waldemar Hoven):
Q. Your name is Waldemar Hoven, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You are an M.D.?
A. Yes.
Q. When and where were you horn?
A. 10 February 1903 in Freiburg in Breisgau.
Q. Please describe to the Tribunal your career.
A. I attended high school in 1918. I was graduated, went to southern Sweden at that time, working in agriculture, thence to Denmark until 1920. In 1921 I went to the United States and in 1924 I returned to Germany. After my return I took over the administration of my father's estate until 1930. 1931 to 1933 I went as a journalist to Paris. In the summer of 1933 I returned to Germany. My father died in 1930. In 1933 my brother died, who had been a doctor and died in our sanatorium. I then took over the administration of my father's sanatorium; the medical direction of it was to remain in the family. I prepared for graduation from high school and in 1934 I was graduated.
Then I studied medicine until 1939.
Q. What did you do in the United States?
A. I was an agriculture inspector.
Q. What further training does a doctor in Germany go through after finishing his studies?
A. For one year he is a medical intern.
Q. Did you go through this internship?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Do you have any specialized training as a doctor?
A. No.
Q. Did you belong to the General SS?
A. Yes.
Q. When did. you join it?
A. 1934.
Q. Why?
A. On the basis of the lavs at that time, only persons were permitted to study who belonged to the Party or one of its affiliations. I did not wish to join the Party and for this reason I joined the affiliation, namely, the SS. I had a friend by that time by the name of Albert Mutz who led the SS-Sturm in Freiburg. He told me that I simply had to join it formally in order to be allowed to begin my studies, and I had to do the regular SS duties.
Q What was your last rank in the General-SS?
A Unterscharfuehrer.
Q Was the Unterscharfuehrer a member of the Fuehrer Corps of the SS?
A No, There were three ranks between the Unterscharfuehrer and the Unterscharfuehrer and the Unterscharfuehrer corresponded in rank to a lieutenant.
Q Let us make this perfectly clear, At what rank did the Fuehrer Corps begin?
A I just said, with the rank of Unterscharfuehrer, which equal led lieutenant.
Q Until when did you belong to the General-SS?
A Until the 28th of August, 1939.
Q From what date on did you belong to the Waffen-SS?
A From the same date, 28 August, 1939?
Q Did you voluntarily join the Waffen-SS?
A No. I received an order at this day and I was drafted.
Q Is it true that you joined and belonged to the Waffen SS on the basis of a legal decree?
A Yes, that is so.
Q Why did you obey this order to be drafted?
A This was a military order which I had to obey, just the way everyone else had to obey such orders. It was a drafting similar to the drafting the army carried out.
Q What activities did you have in the Waffen-SS?
A First I was a common soldier in the Waffen-SS, On the basis of a legal decree, all doctors were extracted from the troops. On 26 October 1939 I went to Buehenwald as an assistant doctor to the troop doctor.
Q Why did you obey this order?
A It was a military order, that I had to obey.
Q What activities did you have in Buchenwald?
A I was assistant doctor to the troop doctor and was medically in charge of the guards.
Q In this capacity did you have any function in the concentration camp of Buehenwald?
A No.
Q During this activity did you enter the protective custody camp of Buehenwald?
A No. No, that was strictly forbidden. One needed a special pass to do so and only the camp doctors received that pass.
Q During your activities as assistant doctor for the guards there did you know that in the protective custody camp any crimes were committed?
A No, I had no connection with the protective custody camp or the concentration camp.
Q When did your activities in the concentration camp Buehenwald begin?
A January 1941.
Q Why did you permit yourself to he transferred from the guards to the concentration camp Buehenwald?
A One day I received an order from Berlin and was thereby transferred to the concentration camp.
Q What was your first position in the concentration camp of Buehenwald?
A I was second camp doctor.
Q Who was the first camp doctor at that time?
A One Dr. Max Blancke.
Q Witness Roemhild testified here that when Blancke was still first camp physician, you occupied a very powerful position. That is page 16580 of the English transcript. Is that correct?
A What Roehmhild meant is certainly the following? From the very first days of my presence in the concentration camp, I succeeded in doing a great deal for the prisoners, particularly for the non Germans, such as the Czechs, Dutchmen, Poles and Jewish prisoners.
From this fact the impression might have arisen in Roemhild's and other prisoners' minds, that I occupied a very powerful position. In reality, however, I was having great difficulties at this time in having my will carried out because I had to take my chief into consideration who was by no means a friend off the political prisoners. Officially I was subordinate to Dr. Blancke and he issued all the directives.
Q What was the situation at Buchenwald when you took over your activities as second camp physician?
A When I took over this job the situation there was far from satisfactory.
Q What improvements did you introduce during your activities as second camp doctor?
A I had many patients listed as so-called convalescents or out-patients patients. These were really in part convalescents and in part prisoners who were not strong enough for heavy labor. Then, without my chief nor the camp commander knowing the fact. I set up a Jewish hospital and carried out the treatment of ambulant Jewish patients there. At first this had to be done at night and later I arranged things so that it was possible to do this treatment during the day. I then improved the medicine supply system. I got surgical instruments which, in part, were my own private instruments from the sanatorium, artificial sunlamps, etc. I then arranged that the prisoners could apply for sickcall at any time of the day or night and would then be treated. Incidentally, illegal baths were built into the barracks and the hospital without the knowledge of the camp commander.
Q Did you act contrary to the orders of the Inspector of the concentration camps and of the camp commander?
A Setting up the Jewish hospital and treating them was, at the beginning of my activities, strictly forbidden. Standard medical preparations could only be used for the SS troops.
Q What consequences could this disobedience on your part have had for you?
A. Well, the consequences that could come from disobeying an order of Himmler's have probably become well enough known to the Tribunal in the course of this trial. I do not believe I have to go into that.
Q. When did you become first camp doctor?
A. June of 1942.
Q. How did that happen ?
A. I don't know myself. I was most surprised.
Q. Describe your tasks and duties as first camp doctor.
A. Medical care of the prisoners under me. At least that is how I construed my tasks.
Q. Were you also garrison physician?
A. Yes; I was 0. What were the duties of the garrison physician?
A. His job was to take medical care of the guards.
Q. What did you have to do with the concentration camp in your capacity as garrison doctor?
A. Nothing
Q. Were there other camp doctors?
A. Yes.
Q. How many.
A. Two or three. It depended. It was different at different times.
Q. Did you have considerable medical knowledge at that time?
A. No.
Q. You have heard Kogen's testomony here, who stated that you had no particular interest in the medical affaird of the camp. This is page 1203 of the English transcript. Is that correct?
A That impression might arise because I was not able to concern myself intimately with the medical care of tho prisoners but no one can deny that the medical care for the prisoners and their treatment by specialist doctors was to a considerable extent impressed by ***** was a well known fact among tho prisoners that at my time Buchenwald had the best hospital of all concentration camps. My main work, however was that of assisting tho prisoners in view of the conditions of tho camp at that time. This demanded a groat deal of administrative work which used up my time completely.
Q Kogen further a.sscrtcd tha.t you fnlt c in ii/fH of medicine and thr.t you made no secret of this,. This is page 1203 of the English transcript, is that so?
A I know enough about medicine to know what was missing and what vias absolutely necessary for perfect treatment and care of the sick people in the camp to be possible. And that I accomplished. And that was tho main thing after all. There would have had to have been the goal of an experienced doctor as well.
Q If you had not really finished your medical training and had no specialist training, how could you fulfill your duties as first camp doctor at Buchenwald?
A When I began my activities as camp doctor in Buchenwald the medical care and treatment was carried out in part by prisoners who were not doctors. Some of my predecessors, all of whom were experienced doctors carried out major operations. I corrected those conditions immediately and put specialists int For example, Dr. Horn as chief physician for the surgical department, Dr. Matuesek, M-a-t-u-s-e-k, I made chief physician for the internal department and Dr. Schallak, a Czech Jewish doctor, vias director of the TB Department. I gave them absolute authority over the nurses-. Theoretically they were subordinate to me. However, they never received from me orders to carry out their duties in the matter of medical care. They could work without any interference from me exactly as if they wore in a regular hospital.
Later I got other specialists to take care of the patients, namely Poles and Frenchmen. The quality of these prisoner doctors was guarantee enough for me that all sick people without exception would be accorded the best possible medical care. I gave those prisoner doctors a perfectly free hand because I said to myself that they would be most concerned for the welfare of their fellow prisoners and that, of course, was the case. Therefore, so long as the SS doctors were doing official duties I made them subordinate to the prisoner doctors. That is to say, I made them assistants to Drs. Horn and Matusek and the other doctors. For these reasons I employed these prisoner doctors contrary to a specific order from Himmler and Grawitz. It was strictly forbidden to use drugs and medicines from the drug stores for prisoners. I did not obey this order. In 1942 and 43 I was the largest user of drugs from the drug stores in Weimar and because of my largo consumption of drugs I twice had to explain my actions to the head office in Berlin. However, large amounts of medicine were necessary* To the extent that specialized treatment to prisoners in Buchenwald was not possible I sent sick patients to the Clinic at the University of Vienna, I think this was the most unique occurrence in the history of concentration camps.
Q You named Drs. Horn and Matusek. Is that Dr. Horn you mention identical with the witness here? .
A Yes, that's the same man.
Q What was Dr. Matusek's citizenship?
A He was also a Czechoslovakian.
Q Dr. Kogon further stated that you had a triple function in Buchenwald. First, camp physician, secondly deputy of Ding-Schuler in block 46, and third as the deputy of the leading physician of the camp. This is on page 1209 of the English transcript.
A I was never Ding-Schuler's deputy in block 46. That can be seen from Ding's diary, It is also incorrect to designate me Dr. Lolling's deputy.
For throe weeks when Dr, Lolling was absent I was working in his office. I was not the official deputy with executive powers nor did I issue directives or orders. I did, however, carry out the functions of camp doctor.
Q I turn now to the typhus charge. When was the typhus experimental station in Buchenwald set up?
A So far as I recall that was at the turn of the year 1941 to 1942.
Q What was the reason for setting up this experimental station precisely in Buchenwald?
A The reason was, I think, that Dr. Ding had been camp doctor in Buchenwald since 1938 and, therefore, knew the situation in that camp very precisely.
Q Who was director of the experimental station?
A Ding-Schuler.
Q Did you know him?
A Yes, of course.
Q Kogen characterizes Schuler as follows. This is page 1258 of the English Transcript. "He was ambitious, always watching out for number one. He wanted to be regarded as an important man by the public, particularly in the university. Ho sought every opportunity to further his personal interests and to have himself looked up to."
A That description of Kogen is certainly correct, Kogen knew Ding-Schuler much bettor than I did, moreover, and was more closely connected with him that I was. Ding would have even sacrificed Ms own family for Ms own personal advantage. Ding, because of this, made serious efforts to keep other people, including myself, from having any insight in his station for virus research.
Q Where were you Ding's deputy?
A I was his deputy in block 50.
Q Why was Ding interested in having you be his deputy in Block 50?
A First of all because I provided him with very material advantages through these illegal work shops have repeatedly been described here. Secondly, I was the only doctor whom the prisoners trusted and who, therefore, could collect the employees and assistants that wore to work in block 50. Otherwise, he would have been unable to find them because it was a matter of common knowledge in the concentration camp that they often concealed their true profession because they never knew what they were going to be used for.
Q For what reasons did Dr. Ding not have you made his permanent deputy in block 46 as well.
A That was impossible because I had no specialized knowledge which would be the minimum requirement for any deputy. The nurses there had already acquired considerable knowledge so that they were superior to me in this field. I had neither time nor interest to concern myself with these problems. Therefore I could not have given the prisoners any orders.