A I cannot say that for sure because I do not know what sort of prisoners arrived at Natzweiler from Auschwitz; but so far as the time element is concerned, there could be some connection. This sentence that mentions somebody who died of pleura empyemia, however, makes me wonder a bit. That could not have had anything to do with my vaccinations. The last sentence is tho one that refers to typhus vaccinations.
Q Will you read the next excerpt which is checked?
A That is 22 March 1944? "As stated in the last official report, after 2 typhus vaccinations in the experimental station Ahnenerbe there took place the actual typhus vaccination, after which temperature measurements and blood analysis were carried out."
Q Doesn't it say, actually, "As already reported in the last monthly report, the typhus innoculation proper was now performed at the Ahnenerbe Experimental Station after a two-fold prophylactic typhus innoculation? It doesn't say the third one was a typhus vaccination, does it, professor? Does he use the word "impfungen" there?
A: Yes, it does - "the third and actual typhus vaccination was followed by taking of temperature and blood analysis."
Q: You contend that this third one was still another vaccination and not an innoculation of infection with typhus?
A: No, that was not an infection with typhus. In the course of my examination here, I have explained that at great length and explained why it couldn't have been.
Q: Now, did this extract apply to your experiments?
A: (N.T.) The expression "prophilactic vaccinations" as far as I know.
DR. TIPP: Mr. President, regarding the formal aspect of this document, something occurs to me. Mr. McHaney doesn't notice this because he can't follow the German interpretation and can't analyze the German document but this is a German document and there is mention in it of a "Typhus Impfung," typhoid vaccination. The German word for typhus is not "typhus" but "Fleckfieber" whereas the English word "typhus" me as typhus. If that is an original German document written by a German, I cannot understand how all of a sudden in such a document there is mention of using the word "Typhoid fever" and not the word "Fleckfieber." I don't know. that I have made this exactly clear. Since there is difficulty besides in the German language, perhaps we could see the English translation. The German original document is completely nonsensical for a German who understands German. The word used here is the word used for typhoid fever and not the word for typhus.
MR. MCHANEY: This witness after all, is supposed to be the greatest expert in the world, I understand, and he has conceded that the first tracts he read which are in the German language applies to his experiments. If he warts to quarrel about the language in them, he is at liberty to do so, but I would rather he would do it under redirect than now.
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't understand that the witness made the direct admission of that which you state.
The Tribunal will new be in recess.
During this recess period the document will be studied, and the Tribunal is not yet advised as to the history of this document or there it came from -- we haven't seen it -- or there it was found; or it's history as far as this trial is concerned.
The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(Whereupon a recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel:
DR. GAWLIK: For the Defendant, Hoven.
Mr. President, I did not ask for the defendant Hoven today but for day before yesterday in the afternoon and he was excused and I talked to him.
THE PRESIDENT: That was my mistake. My recollection was at fault, counsel, very well.
MR. McHANEY: Does the Tribunal wish a short statement about the origin of the document which has been put to the witness?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, if the matter is to be the subject of further interrogation by all means.
MR. McHANEY: I will pass up to the Tribunal document No. NO-807, which was introduced as Prosecution Exhibit 185. This was in effect an exhibit which was prepared by French authorities and consists primarily of pictures made in the anatomical institute at Strasbourg by the French after that city was captured and shows certain bodies which were found in the basement of the building of the anatomical institute, and it is contended by the Prosecution and supported by the evidence I think that these pictures are those of the so-called skeleton collection being assembled by Hirt. Following the pictures in this album are various other exhibits which are a part of the same document and consist of various things. I think Your Honor has opened the page now with which we are concerned. Do you find the sheet marked 3-B?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
Mr.McHANEY: 3-B consists of a photostatic copy of extracts taken from German records purportedly captured in Natzweiler. Those are single paragraphs taken from different monthly reports made by the camp doctor in Natzweiler. The extracts taken from these documents which appear in this exhibit purport to be subject matter dealing with experiments in Natzweiler, and my questions have been directed to the witness to ascertain whether or not those extracts apply to his typhus work in Natzweiler.
The difficulty which has arisen was occasioned by the unfortunate ommission on the part of the translation department to translate those extracts which are a part of this exhibit which has been admitted and also their failure to type them in the mimeograph copy which were distributed to defense counsel, that has occasioned an element of surprise to Dr. Tipp and other defense counsel which is unfortunate.
THE PRESIDENT: You will see that there is a complete translation made and furnished?
Mr. McHANEY: Yes, I will, Your Honor. Now there are a number of different extracts there and I was in the process of proceeding down them one by one and asking the witness whether they apply to his experiments.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.
BY Mr.McHANEY:
Q.- Professor, I think we had agreed that the extract under the date 25 November 1943, which reads: "Only 14 gypsies were found fit during the examination by the Professor directing the experiments. The number of scabies infected gypsies was reduced to four by intensive scabies treatment. Further measures are taken for raising the general state of health." Now Professor, don't you think that this excerpt from the doctor's reports in Natzweiler applied to the first group of 100 persons who were made available for vaccination and which you found to be unsuitable?
A.- I have already said, Mr. McHaney, that the dates agree more or less, but as other work was carried on in Natzweiler I cannot say for certain whether by coincidence there were the same conditions in some other group. I said yesterday that of the first 100 persons who were presented to me I believe 18 had died on the way and the rest who were presented to me in Natzweiler, I gave them a medical examination and discovered that they were out of the question for vaccination.
They did not conform to the German legal qualifications but whether that is identival with the group we had I cannot say, of course.
Q.- Very well, now the second excerpt to which I directed your attention was dated the 24 December, 1943. In other words, approximately one month later than the excerpt which I have just put to you, the excerpt of the 24 December, 1943, reads as fellows: "The gypsies transferred on 12 February, 1943, from Auschwitz concentration camp to the Ahnenerbe experimental station were again released from the experimental station, having been found unsuitable in a strict medical examination. On 12 December, 1943, 89 other gypsies were transferred from Auschwitz camp as replacements." Do you think that this extract applies to the second group of experimental test persons received by you for vaccination?
A.- Here again I can't say definitely whether this refers to the persons whom I vaccinated. As far as the date goes it seems very probable and I see no reason why I shouldn't admit the possibility.
Q.- Now, the third extract is the one dated Natzweiler 1 February, 1944, and it reads: "Experiments at the Ahnenerbe experimental station are still not under way. One of the 89 human experimental prisoners, gypsies, died with Pleura epyemia during the period covered by this report. 40 gypsies received prophylactic innoculations for a typhus experiment." Does that extract apply to your typhus vaccination?
A.- From this extract I gather in the last sentence that 40 gypsies were vaccinated for a typhus experiment, that is what it says in German. The date agrees again. It says that I carried out the vaccinations before the 1st of February because this report apparently was written on the 1st of February.
Q.* Now, the next extract in which there may be a translation difficulty or a mistake on the port of the camp doctor is dated March 8, 1944, and reads: "As already reported in the last monthly report the typhus innoculation proper was now performed at the Ahnenerbe experimental station after a two-fold prophylactic typhus innoculation.
Subsequently temperature is checked daily and blood analysis effected regularly." Now, first, does that extract apply to your typhus vaccinations and secondly, did you have any difficulty with the usage of the German words in that extract? I call your attention to the use of the word "Typhus Impfung", and I am suggesting to you it really refers to your typhus vaccination, although I recognize that a strict translation might indicate typhoid vaccination.
A.- I was so confused with the English and German before that I accepted this word typhus as typhus, but if we look at the report I notice the German text, itself says "40 gypsies were vaccinated for a typhus experiment."
That is the first thing I noticed. The second thing is that certainly the camp doctor doesn't know, he writes twice in the last paragraph vaccination for typhus Impfung, which really means typhoid.
One might make that mistake once but twice seems to be improbable. The important thing in the last paragraph seems to me that he is speaking about innoculation and to a German practicing physician like Dr. Krieger, that is synonomous with vaccination.
The third thing I notice in considering this document, it is supposed to be a medical report but it is signed by the camp doctor of the concentration camp Natzweiler, and then there is a signature which is Kramer, who was an SS Hauptsturmfuehrer, and as far as I know Dr. Krieger was a sturmbannfuehrer at that time and this signature cannot be read as Dr. Krieger's. It looks like Kramer.
Q Well, Kramer might make a mistake in writing "typhus Impfung" when he really meant "Fleckfieber Impfung", might he not?
A I don't think it's likely. He would never convuse typhoid and typhus but as it says on the document then SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Kramer didn't sign it. If the camp doctor had signed it, it would be Dr. Krieger.
Q Do you know of any typhoid inoculations or experiments in the Natzweiler Concentration Camp around this time?
A I knew nothing about it - that typhoid experiments were carried out. But, I know that in 1944 there was a typhoid epidemic in Natzweiler. That's all I know about it.
Q Do you know that your experiments were carried out in the Ahnenerbe Experimental Station?
A No, I don't know that and I don't know why it is called the Ahnenerbe here. I know nothing at the time about the Ahnenerbe or any connections that Hirt may have had with the Ahnenerbe. They were not carried out at the experimental station as such but in the hospital barracks.
Q Did you ever see Hirt in Natzweiler?
A No, I never saw him.
Q Did you know there was an Ahnenerbe Experimental Station in Natzweiler?
A No, I didn't know that.
Q Then you can't exclude the possibility that the place where you carried out your vaccinations was known also as the Ahnenerbe experimental station, can you?
A That I cannot say. It was the general hospital.
Q Now, I want to call your attention to one more extract on the document which you have. It's up or the same page, up on the upper part of the page under II b. Do you find that?
A II b, yes.
Q And you will see that the authorities who prepared this exhibit translated a paragraph from another monthly report by the camp doctor at Natzweiler from the German into French.
And you have before you an extract from a report of the camp doctor dated 30 June 1944. It is written in French. Do you read French well enough to translate that?
A Yes, I think so. It is a monthly report of the 30 June 1944 by the camp doctor. IV. Miscellaneous - the experimental section. During the period of the report experiments were carried out on 16 gypsies, 3 deaths were recorded.
Q Does that extract apply to your experiments in Natzweiler?
A No, it does not refer to my vaccinations in Natzweiler. It is a report of June. We carried out our vaccinations in December and January 1943 and 1944 and no one died.
Q All right, Professor. Let's turn to another document. Now, Professor you had testified in connection with my questions concerning the Ipsen vaccine that you never proposed to Rose that you would carry out tests on his Ipsen vaccine that he had sent to you or was suggesting that he would sent to you. You also testified that you did not conduct any vaccinations in Schirmeck after May 1943. I am putting to you document NO-2874 which is a letter dated 4 October 1943 directed to Oberstarzt Professor Dr. Rose and I ask you if this letter originated from you?
A May I first read the document?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has not received German copies of this document.
BY HR. McHANEY:
Q Did you send this letter to the defendant Rose, Professor?
A The letter does not bear my signature. I cannot say whether the letter came from me but I remember that I corresponded with Professor Rose about the Ipsen vaccine and I assume that the letter is authentic.
Q You assume that the letter came from you?
A Yes, I assume so but I cannot say for certain. It does not bear my signature.
Q I offer this as Prosecution Exhibit 520 for identification. Let's read a little part of this letter, Professor. Let's turn to page 2 in the paragraph beginning at the top of that page. You speak of the report of Rose about the Ipsen vaccine. About the middle of that paragraph you state "As you know already from my reports, we used already unphenolized yolk-sack cultures for the production of vaccine. I already reported to you the numeral results of experiments on human beings. The Serum titer is considerably higher, also after a single vaccination, in comparison with 3 times vaccinations with deactivated vaccines. I regret that it was not possible so far to perform infectious experiments on the vaccinated persons; I requested the Ahnenerbe of the SS to provide suitable persons for vaccination, but did not receive an answer as yet. The are now performing a further vaccination of human beings; I shall report later about the result. I guess we will then have reached the point to be able to recommend our new vaccine to be introduced, for the time being without infectious experiments." Now, Professor, first I would like to observe that you used the word experiments yourself in this letter to Rose, didn't you?
A Yes, that's right. I had no misgivings about that. I often said that tests for comparison, etc., as long as a procedure is not definitely decided upon can be called experiments.
Q But, you have also insisted to this Tribunal that use of the word experiment in connection with what you did is a complete misnomer. Now you used the word experiments in connection with your work in Schirmeck, didn't you, Professor?
A I said expressly in the examination that in a certain sense one can speak of experiments but not in the interpretation the word is given hero in this trial.
Q Well, be that as it may. We will proceed a little bit. Now you say "I regret that it was not possible so far to perform infectious experiments on the vaccinated persons." Now hero you are telling Prof essor Rose that you really meant that you hadn't performed another vaccination on the vaccinated persons.
Is that your explanation of that?
A No. First I want to read this sentence.
Q Infektions versuche.
A I said yesterday that after the vaccinations proper were finished we performed further vaccinations to determine immunity and that we called that infection and that it was frequently done in works by other people.
Q.- Yes, your three times vaccination was really what you meant by infection experiments.
Now, I put it to you, hadn't you already used this three times vaccin ation procedure in Schirmeck, Professor? See, you make mention of three times vaccination in this letter?
A.- Let me see where that is. Where is that?
Q.- It is in the same paragraph where we have been reading:
"The serum titer is considerably higher also after a single vaccination" also indicating that you carried out other vaccinations. Then you continue: "In comparison with three times vaccinations with deactivated vaccines."
A.- This "in comparison with", where does it say that? I can't find that.
Q.- Do you find the part that we just read:
"I already reported to you the numeral results of experiments on human beings. The Serum titer is considerably higher, also after a single vaccination, in comparison with 3 times vaccinations with de-activated vaccines"?
A.- We have the experience that three times vaccination with a dead vaccine produces a very low serum titer, and that's what this "comparison" referred to, not any special experiment, but experience in general.
Q.- No three times vaccination with your live vaccine? Is that right, Professor?
A.- That's right. We're talking about a dead vaccine here.
Q.- Now, you said that you didn't carry out any vaccinations in Schirmeck after May, 1943. You find in this same paragraph we have been reading the sentence:
"We are now performing a further vaccination of human beings..."
Where was that done, Professor? Wasn't that in Schirmeck?
A.- It goes on -- Oh, I see it now. But this vaccination was never carried out. It doesn't say "we did perform".
Q.- No, it doesn't say "we did perform", it says "we are now performing" is what it says, doesn't it, Professor?
A.- That means it hasn't been done yet. I could have said "we will perform" too.
Q.- Yes, you could have, but you said "we are now performing" and I take that to mean in the process of performing.
A.- Yes, but the fact is that these vaccinations weren't performed and this expression has to be interpreted to mean that we were going to perform. That refers to the 200 persons whom I had asked for.
Q.- Oh, it does? Well, we'll see about that.
You still want to maintain that you didn't perform any vaccinations in Schirmeck after May, 1943, do you, Professor?
A.- Yes, I maintain that.
Q.- And you also maintain that although you used the words "performing infection experiments on vaccinated persons" in this letter that you really didn't mean that, that you meant another vaccination? Is that right?
A.- That as the third vaccination that I talked about. I have already told you that all this work was with a non-pathogenic virus and it was to be continued.
Q.- And you were prepared to recommend this vaccine for the time being without infectious experiments? All you meant to say by that was that you were prepared to recommend it even though you hadn't conducted your triple vaccination series?
A.- Then we had so much experience - I can see, looking back on it now - that we could introduce the vaccine on a large scale.
Q.- Isn't it a fact, Professor, that you had conducted your vaccination tests and your compatibility tests and the SS wouldn't let you infect those persons in Schirmeck and you had to get special persons through Hirt? Isn't that the fact, Professor?
A.- It's identical. The request that I made at the time went through Hirt.
That was the same office which later gave me the prisoners for vaccination, or intended to give me the prisoners for vaccination.
Q.- Let's drop down to the last few sentences of the letter, Doctor. Do you see where it reads:
"If we can get experimental subjects from the SS for test vaccinations, it would be an opportunity to test the liver vaccine as well on its anti-infectious effect. I would then suggest that our material will be used parallel with the Ipsen tests."
Do you find that, Professor? I thought you had.....
A.- (Interrupting) Just a minute. I have only two pages here. I have to find it.
Q.- It's at the bottom of the page. It's the last two sentences of the next to the last paragraph. Do you find that?
"If we can get experimental subjects from the SS for test vaccinations, it would be an opportunity to test the liver vaccine as well on its anti-infectious effect. I would then suggest that our material be used parallel with the Ipsen tests." Do you find that, Professor?
A.- Yes, I found that.
Q.- I thought you testified to the Tribunal that you never said anything to Rose about testing his Ipsen vaccine for its efficiency? Isn't that right? Didn't you tell that to the Tribunal?
A.- I testified here that if we were to use the Ipsen vaccine it would not be in a planned group since otherwise the figures for comparison would be too small. That we would need a special series of persons.
Q.- You testified that you did not suggest anything to Rose about testing his Ipsen vaccine as to its anti-infectious effect. You told that to the Tribunal at least twice under a very precise question put by me. Don't you state in this letter that you will conduct such tests for its anti-infectious properties?
A.- I believe that I said that I didn't remember. Perhaps we could make certain of that.
I can't remember. I told you that I don't remember this letter.
Q.- Nell, it's all in the record, exactly what you said and we needn't worry about that now, but you concede that in this letter you are telling Rose you will test his Ipsen vaccine for its anti-infectious effect, aren't you?
A.- Yes, but I.....
DR. TIPP (Interrupting): Mr. President, apparently Mr. McHaney wants to refer to Document HO-122, the letter of Professor Rose. At least, that is how I understood him, and to avoid mistakes I should like to point out the following. In this document, NO-122, there is a reference to a letter from Mr. Haagen dated the 8th of December, 1943, and in the direct examination Mr. Haagen testified on this letter of the 8th of December. This letter which Mr. McHaney has just stated is dated the 4th of October, 1943, and entirely different letter.
Mr. McHANEY: I think that the observations by defense counsel are in the way of some sort of protection for his witness. Now, he has put the witness on the stand and the witness can take care of himself. He can direct any question on the clarification of this matter on redirect examination, and I must object this interrupting this examination unless he has an objection to offer.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection is overruled.
BY Mr. McHANEY:
Q.- Now, Herr Professor, let's test your testimony a little bit more I want to put a further document to you.
This is Document NO-3852.
Doctor, take it you recognize that exhibit I put to you. Suppose you tell the Tribunal what it is?
A.- First I should like to look at the document carefully.
Q.- Have you read far enough to tell us what this exhibit is, Professor?
A.- I need a little time. The document is rather long. I'd like to study it.
Q.- Professor, I don't want you to study the document. I'll put specific questions to you and we will go over it together, but right now I want you to tell the Tribunal what this little note book is. Will you please tell them?
"A.- As far as I can see at the moment, these are records, but they are rather extensive. After such a long time, I should like a chance to study them.
Q.- Professor, aren't those your notes? Your recognize your own handwriting, don't you?
A.- No, this is not my handwriting.
Q.- Is it Miss Crodell's handwriting?
A.- I have to have samples of handwriting, but it wight be that she wrote it, but first I'd have to see it carefully to know the contents.
Q.- Oh, come now, Professor, I think you must recognize this. I'll give you an opportunity to study each little section of it as we come to it, but right now we have to tell the Tribunal what it is.
A.- The first document is a fever chart of a mouse, 540-541. That's the first thing I have here.
Q.- Yes, that is a chart showing a vaccination carried out on two mice, isn't it, Professor?
A.- Yes.
Q.- And those were experiments carried out by you, weren't they?
THE PRESIDENT: You say, counsel, that is the beginning of this document?
BY Mr. McHANEY:
Q.- Yes, Your Honor, we will necessarily have some difficulty with this exhibit. We have not had it very long and again, through some ridiculous oversight, they did not translate the full document. There are, I think, two charts attached to this note book which cannot be copied. In any event, I don't intend to direct many questions in connection with those and I believe we will be able to proceed in an orderly fashion.
THE PRESIDENT: See that complete copies are furnished as soon as possible to defense counsel and the Tribunal.
BY Mr. McHANEY:
Q.- What about the note book, Professor?
A.- It is a record of our mice. As far as I can see now, the vaccine was tested, on these mice. The immunizing effect of the vaccine.
Q.- Now, you are speaking of the chart now, are you?
A.- Yes, this curve here.
Q.- That is marked in pencil. Does that have a pencil mark on the lower right hand corner?
A. Subsequently vaccinated, with yolk-sacks, is that what you mean?
Q. We will proceed. That is a vaccine test carried out by you on nice, is it not?
A. Yes, yes, of course.
Q. And the date is 3 December 1943?
A. 3 December, '43, yes.
Q. And you list the test you are carrying our as "nach-iupfung", doesn't that appear in the chart?
A. The nice, yes.
Q. You didn't say "nach-infection" in that case you said "nach -inpfung", didn't you, and when you were speaking about human beings you used the word "nack-infection" as "nach-inpfung", didn't you?
A. That is exactly the sane thing in this sense. The assistant made this entry, and I an quite certain that is right.
Q. Except when your assistant was referring to mouse test, "nach impfung" and not "nach-infcction". Suppose you tell the Tribunal what happened to those two nice. Did they die?
A. Well, I have to see.
Q. What do you have to see? There are two big crosses on the chart there.
A. Yes, but one cross is in the middle of the curve, and they couldn't have died in the middle of the curve. And the curve went on. That doesn't work. One can't say it died if the temperature is taken afterwards.
Q. Can you tell from the chart whether the mice died?
A No, I can't say.
Q. All right. Let's pass on to this notebook.
A. From this chart, no, no.
Q. Let's pass onto the notebook. Now, what does the notebook show? What is this notebook?
A. That is a control book, a book where the experiments with the typhus vaccine on the animals were recorded.
Q. Does that notebook concern your typhus experiments?
A. As far as I can see now, it looks as if that was the current laboratory work which we were carrying out. That is the way it looks like, but I'd have to see all of it first.
Q. Now, Professor, you must be able to tell the Tribunal who wrote this book.
A. The technical assistant kept it, and from the handwriting, it looks as if she made these entries; but after such a long time, I can't interpret every record. I have to study it first after such a long time. We had not only vaccinations, but also scientific work.
Q. But to the best of your memory, you can state that this notebook was written by Miss Crodell, and it concerns the experiments carried out by you?
A. The laboratory work, as far as I can see at the moment. I would like to make that restriction.
MR. HcHANEY: The prosecution asks that the exhibit be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 521 for identification.
BY MR. MCHANEY:
Q. Now, Professor, we have covered the chart of the test on the two nice. Let's go to the notebook itself. And in order to follow my questions, I will ask you to observe the pencil numbers which I have written on this photostatic copy down at the bottom right-hand corner of each page. Do you find that?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you turn to page 3.
MR. MCHANEY: If the Tribunal, please, it will be necessary to renumber the pages appearing on your translations. This applies equaly to the defense counsel. When the translation was made, they took some pages off the reverse side of the photostatic copy, and because of the two pages appearing for one photostatic copy, they had to be renumbered.
Page 5 on the translations should be markdd page 3.
BY MR. MCHANEY:
Q. Do you find the entry for 30 April 1943, Professor?
A. 30 April '43, yes.
Q. And that says, "S, plus, plus, plus, 9, S ch." That is Schirmeck, isn't it, Professor? "S ch."?
A. No. That means ninth passage. It is supposed to be "pas.", ninth passage.
Q. It says "Sch.", what does "Sch." mean?
A. It doesn't look like "Sch."to me.
Q. What does it look like to you?
A. In German, I think it looks like a "p", a German "p".
Q. And you think it should read, what?
A. First I said it is probably "passage-ninth passage."
Q. All right. Let's go down to the entry, the nex one for 14 May. In parenthesis "two weeks," does that mean the vaccine had been stored for two weeks?
A. Where is that, I can't find it?
Q. 14 May, immediately-
A. It probably means that it was stored for two weeks, yes.
Q. And then you go on, and it reads, "1 plus two point two for six mice, point five, I. P. All injected again, six point six immune, on the two out of four of the controlled died," right?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Then, the next is 26 May, "four weeks, three dash six," what does "three dash six" mean, Professor?
A. Four weeks, three to six," I can't tell you at the moment. I'd have to reconstruct what the assistant wrote.
Q. Well, passing that for the moment. It continues to read, "point 5 per person and six mice point five I.P., five dead after ten, fourteen, fourteen days.