Q I have some difficulty in understanding why you went to Shirmeck and vaccinated twenty women with this vaccine.
AA camp is always particularly vulnerable when there is a possibility of an epidemic breaking out because people are packed so close together in the camp that the epidemic is likely to spread very quickly. In any camp there is always a group of persons who are particularly likely to spread such an epidemic of influenza, namely, those who move from one barracks to another, taking care of food, transportation and so forth. Now if one such person is infected with influenza it is very easy for the person to travel from one barrack to another and spread it and that is why I vaccinated those twenty women who were designated to me by the camp commander as people who were endangered in this respect.
Q It is your scientific opinion and you want the Court to understand that in a camp the size of Schirmeck vaccinating twenty women was a good prophylactic measure to keep down influenza in Schirmeck, is that right?
A Of course, I should have preferred to be able to vaccinate more people but my production capacities were small in this respect, so consequently I vaccinated only those who were particularly dangerous. In Schirmeck it was these women and in Strassbourg it was the 200 employees who were vaccinated because here again the danger existed that these 200 nurses and doctors in the hospital, namely, the ones who were vaccinated, would transmit the disease. They themselves were particularly in danger of contacting the disease because they worked in the hospital.
Q So that your testimony is that the camp doctor of Schirmeck came to you and said that there is danger of an influenza epidemic in Schirmeck. Won't you come there and help us out, and you had no interest in testing this vaccine at all, but you did go there and vaccinated twenty of the most susceptible carriers with the influenza vac cine, is that right?
A The camp physician didn't ask me. I from my own epidemiological knowledge saw this danger and since the camp management was agreeable to this I was able to carry out these vaccinations.
Q You went to him then. He didn't come to you?
A In the case of influenza vaccinations I went to him.
Q Which took place first, influenza or typhus?
A Typhus, that was May 1943.
Q He had already come to you in connection with the typhus danger and after you had made his acquaintance you suggested the influenza is that right?
A I didn't suggest it. I told him I thought it would be a good idea if he had this vaccination in the camp. He saw the truth of this and then I could do the vaccinating.
Q And these tests you carried out there were no different from the other 200 you carried out on students and assistants in Strass burg, is that right?
A This was not an experiment but a regular protective vaccination and was exactly the same sort of thing which I did with my personnel in Strassburg.
Q And you were not interested in making any observations on the reaction against the vaccine, you were vaccinating like we give a small pox vaccination, is that right?
A That is right.
Q And this had nothing to do with your research assignment from the Luftwaffe, of course?
A It had nothing to do with it, no. That was my own initiative and my own idea.
Q Just protective vaccination?
A That is right.
Q Well, I assume you didn't charge this to the Luftwaffe then, is that right?
A How am I to understand that: "Charge it to the Luftwaffe?"
Q. Well, you had received money from them to do something for them in the way of influenza, research. I haven't heard much about what you did but you said these protective vaccinations didn't have anything to do with it and I am asking you if you charged whatever expenses you incurred in connection with it to the Luftwaffe?
AAs I said, all of the things I did for the Luftwaffe I charged them for. When I was in Schirmeck, of course, I charged them for the gasoline for the trip.
Q But you didn't do these vaccinations for the Luftwaffe?
A That is correct, I didn't.
Q Well, let's look at the charge sheet you did submit to the Luftwaffe. You made two trips to Schirmeck in connection with this influenza vaccine, is that right, Professor?
A Yes, two, in winter 1943.
Q Well, let's sec what this shows.
A Yes.
Q Now this is a statement of expenditures, on your influenza research, isn't it, Professor? This is document No. NO-3450, a statement of expenditures on your Luftwaffe influenza research, isn't it?
A Yes.
Q The first assignment on the 22nd of January 1942, and then that was continued again in 1944, which shows that it came out of the office II F, that is Becker Freyseng's office, isn't it?
A Here I see the date of '43 to '44, if I am reading correctly.
Q Yes, I think that is true. You testified that you made some trips to Schirmeck?
A Yes.
Q And called over long distance telephone also on the 28 October 1944, in connection with these protective vaccinations. Did you find that, the 28 of October 1943?
A Yes, I see that.
Q You charged that to the Luftwaffe, didn't you?
A Yes, that is included in the phone calls.
Q And way down in '44, the 12th of February, you made another trip to Schirmeck, didn't you, 25 marks, in connection with these protective vaccinations?
A Here I see the 12 of February one entry return of two boxes.
Q The 12th of February, 1944?
AAh, here it is. Here it is, that other one, two trips to Natzweiler, because Natzweiler and Schirmeck were more or loss all one thing. That is the way to explain that.
Q That is the way to explain what -- that you called Natzweiler "Schirmeck"?
A In Strassburg that is the way we called them and I wasn't the person who wrote those things, I just dictated this Natzweiler or Schirmeck to my secretary and as I told you, there were all one thing.
Q I didn't understand you testified anything about having made any influenza protective vaccinations in Natzweiler, did you?
A No, none were done there.
Q Well, this bill hero has nothing to do with typhus. We are only concerned with influenza here.
A. Perhaps the title of this is influenza but that doesn't mean a thing. If I made a trip to Natzweiler, I could have put that down under influenza. Everything wasn't done as carefully as all that. The secretary made the notation and then put it down.
Q. You didn't tabulate your expenses in connection with your influenza work separate from that in connection with your typhus work? Isn't that right, you just lumped them all together?
A. Yes, perhaps in the typhus accounts there are things that really should have been in the influenza account, and vice versa. That is quite possible.
Q. So you deny to the Tribunal that you went to Schirmeck 12 February 1944 in connection with influenza, is that right?
A. That is certainly the case. I did not go to Schirmeck on account of influenza.
Q. And on 29 February, "long distance telephone Schirmeck 108", what is that telephone number? You undoubtedly know that very well.
A. Yes, that was Schirmeck, too. I guess I telephoned Schirmeck for something or other - wanted to know something about the fever graphs from before. That is all quite possible. All these were serological examinations that had been sent in to us about which I telephoned back.
Q. You are positive that Schirmeck 108 is the telephone number in the Schirmeck camp, is that right?
A. That I can't tell you for sure today. That might have been Natzweiler.
Q. Well, do you know whom you were calling when you called Schirmeck 108? Whom did you get on the telephone?
A. My secretary made the connection and I just don't remember the numbers. Once the connection was made then she put me on the wire.
Q. Who did you talk to?
A. I talked with my secretary and she made the connection.
Q. I mean who did you talk to in Schirmeck or Natzweiler. You made a telephone call. Who did you talk to?
A. Spoke to the camp physician.
Q. I think you will find that Schirmeck 108 is the Natzweiler number. You made a call on 29 February, on 28 March; on the next page on 18 March you will find long distance call Schirmeck 108 Natzweiler. Find that?
A. One long distance call Schirmeck. Yes, that must have been Natzweiler. With the best will in the world I can't tell you what the number was; I am very sorry.
Q. And on 25 April, 5 May, and 6 May you made additional calls to Natzweiler, is that right?
A. If the number is here, then we made the calls.
Q. But that has nothing to do with influenza?
A. No, it didn't. The secretary just put it down here as having some connection with research assignments.
MR. MC HANEY: If the Tribunal please, I do not know the next exhibit number in order.
THE PRESIDENT: You can ascertain that during the recess period and properly advise us later.
MR. MC HANEY: Very well, Your Honor, I will offer this document at that time.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q. Didn't this co-mingling of your influenza expenses with your typhus expenses cause any confusion with the Luftwaffe?
A. I don't think so. The same person was concerned in both, namely myself. I was the one to whom the assignment had been given.
Q. Well, but if the Luftwaffe decided to give you 4000 marks for typhus research and 4000 marks for influenza research weren't you taking a slight advantage of them when you spent 3500 marks of the influenza money on typhus and raising the total of research money of typhus to say 7500? Wasn't that sort of imposing a little bit on the Luftwaffe?
A. No, you can't put it that way. All these were scientific assign ments that I was working on and if the money in one fund was a little short why we could make it up from money out of the other fund.
I know no misgivings were expressed about that.
Q. Now on epidemic jaundice for a few minutes. As I understand your testimony, you admitted that you were planning to carry out epidemic jaundice experiments on human beings, is that right?
A. Yes, I spoke of that planning yesterday.
Q. And this was to be in collaboration with Kalk, Buechner, Zugschwert, and Dohmen.
A. Who was the first?
Q. Kalk, K-a-l-k.
A. Qh, Kalk, yes, that was our work circle.
Q. Now, was Dohmen included in this work circle.
A. No, he didn't.
Q. Now, these human experiments were discussed in the Breslau meeting in 1944, presided over by Schreiber, weren't they?
A. Yes, Schreiber was chairman.
Q. Well then, I am sure it won't come as any shock to you that Schreiber later got in touch with the defendant Mrugowsky in January 1945 and asked him to arrange for 20 concentration camp inmates in Buchenwald. Do you know anything about that?
A. No, I don't.
Q. For what reason was your proposed Plan to carry out jaundice experiments abandoned?
A. The war situation determined that. My opportunity to work in Strassbourg stopped around August, September because student companies were sent off, the reserve hospitals were changed into army hospitals, and there were no more chances to work there.
Q. Now you testified that you planned to use volunteers from the student companies of the Wehrmacht at Strassbourg, Freiburg, or Heidelberg, is that right?
A. Yes, that is so.
Q. How far is Freiburg from Strassbourg?
A. About one hours train ride.
Q. How many kilometers from Strassbourg?
A. I guess it is about 60.
Q. From Heidelberg?
A. Heidelberg - one and one-half to two hours train ride.
Q. How many kilometers would you say Heidelberg was from Strassbourg?
A. I should estimate 90 to 100.
Q. And you feel that those two cities are in the vicinity of Strassbourg, is that right?
A. Yes, it was very easy to reach them by car.
Q. Did it ever occur to you to use the words Strassbourg, Heidelberg, Freiburg in this letter concerning these jaundice experiments on human beings when you used instead the term Strassbourg and vicinity?
A. Yes, as I said yesterday, this was only a planning which was discussed with Professor Kalk.
Q. And the "in the vicinity of Strassbourg" could by no stretch of imagination mean Natzweiler?
A. No. not in this connection at all.
Q. Natzweiler, however, was a little bit closer to Strassbourg than either Freiburg or Heidelberg, wasn't it?
A. That is so but in this case very precise clinical observations had to be made and, as I said yesterday, we had to be able to rely on what vaccinated persons told us. Therefore, it was better to use medical students who had better interest in this matter.
Q. Well, now, were these student companies available for this purpose that you, were planning to use them for? After all, they were studying; they had other things to do.
A. That is so, yes, but we could be perfectly sure that they would make volunteers available to us.
Q. You were sure that the Luftwaffe would make these people available although they had a lot of work to do and other duties, is that right?
A. Yes, but they also had vacations and we could very well have done this work during vacation.
Q. Who told you could use them or who led you to believe that they might be available for that purpose?
A. Professor Kalk was also of this opinion. He knew the mentality of the students and he believed that we would certainly receive the necessary number of students.
Q. Well, was Kalk in a position to know. I find it difficult to believe that you could get these students, Professor.
A. Mr. Prosecutor, we certainly should have got them.
Q. And what about clinical facilities and weren't they crowded? I also find it difficult to believe that you could have carried out your experiments in the clinic because of the crowded conditions.
A: I can sure that in the serve hospitals we could have done the necessary work. The students didn't have to stay in the hospitals very long and I believe that in this important matter certainly the space would have been made available.
Q: You are quite clear about that? You really want the Tribunal to believe that?
A: Why shouldn't they believe it? In other places also they carried on investigations with volunteers on hepatitis epidemica.
Q: And there was no regulation of the Wehrmacht preventing the use of these students or of soldiers?
A: I know if no such directive.
Q: Well, if there had been he would you known of it?
A: Since we should have to turn to the Chief of the Medical Service anyway, we should have been told something about such a directive if the had existed.
Q: And you can testify that you certainly could have carried out these experiments without going to a concentration camp, is that right?
A: It is certain that we could have done that with volunteer students.
Q: About how long would it have taken to carry them out?
A: How long would have taken until what?
Q: To have carried but these experiments.
A: That probably couldn't be said in advance. You would to ask a clinician, and it depends what the period of incubation is and how long the illness last. It could take a little while or it also could last a very long while. I can't tell you anything about it.
Q: Well, would it last at least weeks, do you think?
A: I can't tell you.
Q: Suppose you tell the Tribunal who Wimmer was.
A: Wimmer? Wimmer was one of Hirt's assistants.
Q: A member of the Luftwaffe?
A: Yes, I think he was a Stabsarzt in the Luftwaffe.
Q: To whom was he subordinated?
A: I can't tell you.
Q: Don't know?
A: No, I don't know.
Q: What about Graefe?
A: Graefe was assigned to me in the Hygiene Institute, and then from 1942 on he was also an assistant in the Institute.
Q: He was a member of the Luftwaffe, wasn't he?
A: Yes, he was a Stabsarzt in the Luftwaffe, although he was detailed to me by the Luftwaffe.
Q: To when was he subordinated?
A: Militarily he was subordinated to Luftgau Physician #7.
Q: Technically to you?
A: Scientifically or technically subordinate to me, yes.
Q: Who was Krediett?
A: That was a Dutch prisoner doctor in Natzweiler.
Q: He knows all about your experiments, doesn't he?
A: Yes, he assisted in them.
Q: Where is he?
A: I can't tell you. I assume he is in Holland.
Q: Who was Paulsen?
A: A Norwegian internist. The chief internist in the Natzweiler hospital. He was in inmate ???????
Q: He was an innate, wasn't he?
A: Yes.
Q: He also knows all about your experiments, doesn't he?
A: Yes, he does.
Q: And if he said you infected the experimental subjects with virulent virus he, at least, was in a position to know, wasn't he?
A: Yes he was. He certainly was because we talked over the whole thing.
Q: And what about Meyer? Who was Meyer?
A: He was the administrative inspector and was in my institute in Strasbourg.
Q: Meyer was in the Hygiene Institute?
A: In the Medicinal Research Institute - that was part of the institute, or rather, I was also in charge of that particular institute, and of this Medicinal Research Institute which I just mentioned, Meyer was an administrative inspector.
Q: Who was Henri Pierre?
A: Henri Pierre? I think this is the first time I am hearing that name.
Q: He is a very slight young man, rather thin. Worked in Strasbourg. You don't remember him?
A: Where did he work? I can' t remember the name. I can't associate the name with a person.
Q: Do you remember a man, working at Strasbourg, by the name of Bong?
A: I can't tell you for sure. That's not an unusual name, but I don't seem to remember it.
Q: Would it refresh your recollection if I told you how worked in the Anatomical Institute?
A: That wouldn't help me because I didn't know the personnel, of the Anatomical Institute.
Q: Did you know Schuh?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did Schuh work?
A: He was an assistant in the Medicinal Research Institute.
Q: And you were his boss?
A: His immediate boss was Professor Trenz, the Director and Obermedizinalrat of that institute.
Q: But you were in charge of that superior of Schuh's, is that right?
A: No, I was the scientific director of both institutes, but I had nothing to say about the personnel of that other institute.
Q: I believe you have already testified that you don't remember Wagner.
A. You mean the draftsman Wagner?
Q: Do you remember him?
A: I know the name fron the documents involved in this trial, but I can't remember him. I wasn't acquainted with the personnel of this anotomical Institute.
Q: How, Fraulein Schmidt - she worked with you, didn't show?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember an inmate by the name, of Nales?
A: No, I don't remember him.
Q: Don't remember Nales. He remembers you.
Do you remember an inmate by the name of Broers? A Dutchman, a doctor? He was in Natzweiler.
A: I only know the name, Dr. Kredit is the only doctor I know.
Q: Don't know a certain Dr. Boegaarts, an inmate at Natzweiler?
A: He was the chief surgeion in the hospital at Natzweiler.
Q: That's right. He performed the autopsies.
A: I never saw any autopsies of his. I can't tell you. I don't know.
Q: We'll come to that in a moment. How far was the Hygiene Institute from the Anatonical Institute?
A: Five to eight minutes by foot.
Q: Were you on pretty good terms with Hirt?
A: I made his acquaintance when I went to Strasbourg, and, as colleagues, we had touch with one another.
Q: And Bickenbach?
A: I had no contacts with him.
Q: Well, you know Bickenbach, didn't you, Professor?
A: Sure, I knew him, but we saw each other very infrequently.
Q: What was Bickenbach's job at Strasbourg?
A: He was director of the Internal Polyclinic at the University.
Q: Did you ever bump into him in Natzweiler?
A: No. I never hit in Natzweiler.
Q: Suppose you tell the Tribunal what you know about Hirt's gas experiments, Professor?
A: I only know what I have read here in these documents in this trial.
Q: You were in Strasbourg from October, 1941. Hirt carried out his experiments from November, 1942, until the late summer of 1944 in Natzweiler. You want to tell the Tribunal you don't know anything about his experiments with Lost gas, is that right, Professor?
A: I have already said that I knew nothing about Hirt's work and experiments.
Q: Did it come as a great surprise to you, and I suppose it did when you read these document and learned that Hirt was carrying out experiments in Natzweiler with Lost gas? Is that right.
A: I just found it our from these documents. Now I know.
Q: Did you also want to testify to the Tribunal that you know nothing about your colleague Bickenbach's experiments with Lost and Phosgene gas?
A: It was only in connection with this trial that I, for the first time, heard of those experiments. I was asked about that some time ago.
Q: And I suppose that it's pointless for me to ask you to tell the Tribunal what you know about the Jewish skeleton collection which rested in the basement of the Anatomical Institute, eight minutes away from August, 1943, until the Allies entered in November 1944? Did you know anything about that?
A: I know that only from these documents and from the reports in the papers last year, regarding it.
Q: Did that come as something of a shock to you?
A: When I read it, you mean? In November 1945, I was asked about these matters here in Nurnberg and that was the first time I heard anything about them, so I wasn't too surprised later after I found out further details here.
Q: You mean you weren't surprised really when you found out about that? You find it quite believable that Hirt and Bickenbach were capable of doing these things, is that right?
A: I didn't intend to say that. I wasn't surprised because I already know. During my interrogations here in Nurnberg these things had been brought to my attention. It was a matter course that I was surprised that such things had been done.
Q: Would the Tribunal like to adjourn at this time?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is main in session.
BY HR. MCHANEY:
Q Document No. 3450, the Statement of Expenditures in connection with the Influenza Research Assignment by Haagen will be marked for identification as Prosecution Exhibit No. 519.
Professor, you testified that you know nothing about Hirt's gas experiments or Bickenbach's gas experiments; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Did you ever carry out any gas experiments?
A I have never carried out any such experiments.
Q The affiant Schuh in Document No. 885, Prosecution Exhibit 314, which you have already read, states in paragraph 7 that he learned from Meyer that Haagen together with Professor Hirt made some trials of combat gas - Lost - in Natzweiler on Jewish prisoners; do you deny that?
A Yes, I have to deny it because such trials were never made by me.
Q Then you know nothing about any such trials, whether made by you or other persons?
A I did not know anything about such trials.
Q You don't know that Hirt was interested in gas at all; is that right?
AAt that time I did not know it.
Q Did. you have any information about the work of Hirt at Strasbourg?
A I knew very little about what Hirt did in his institute.
Q You did not hold any faculty meetings in Strasbourg?
A Yes, we had those in the same manner as in any university.
Q It was my understanding that at other universities they discuss one another's work and pretty generally are advised on the work of their colleagues; that was not true at Strasbourg?
A I do not believe that each individual professor speaks about his work with his colleagues; that is not only the case in Strasbourg but at all universities and I assume that Professor Hirt had reasons why he did not speak about his work.
Q Well, I can appreciate that. He probably would not have spoken about his gas experiments on inmates at Natzweiler to an ordinary person, but on the other hand it occurred to me that it might be possible, if not probable that a man who himself went to Hirt to have concentration camp inmates made available to him for experiments might know something about Hirt's experiments on concentration camp inmates too, but you say that is not so?
A I am sorry, but I have to say again that Hirt had not told me anything about his work.
Q You may have noticed that the affiant Wagner in Document No. 881, Prosecution Exhibit 280, says in paragraph 2:
"For Professor Haagen, I had to make a chart of about 2 x 1 meters, on which were listed the various combat gasses with their chemical formulas, and which gave indication on the dangers that men could encounter. I have deducted that experiments had been made on human beings."
Do you know anything about that?
DR. TIPP: May I ask that the Document be also shown to the witness and that it be put to him. That has always been done and I know Professor Haagen does not have the document in front of him right now.
THE PRESIDENT: It seems that the document should possibly be submitted to the witness.
MR. MCHANEY: I can submit it to him in English, I understand he reads English. I do not have it in German. I understand he has been shown the document by Wagner as I understand that he is here. You read English, don't you, Professor?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
BY MR. MCHANEY:
Q You will find this under paragraph 8. Did you read the paragraph?
A Yes, I have seen it. Wagner writes here that he drew up a chart for me and that he was told to draw up a 2 x 1 meter chart where various combat gasses with their formulas were given and also indications of the danger which human beings would encounter. He concluded from that the experiments on human beings had been made.
I personally do not know anything about a chart or a table of that kind.
I can not recall that I ever gave Wagner an assignment of that nature and in my lecture I never spoke about gas, combat gasses, so that I can not imagine today that I should ever have given an assignment for a chart of that kind. I mentioned before that I did not know Wagner.
Q: Then you deny Wagner's statement is true, is that right?
A: Well, I cannot remember ever having ordered a chart of that kind.
Q: If you ordered a chart which concerned gas warfare and experiments on human beings, you would remember it, wouldn't you, Professor?
A: I certainly would remember it, of course.
Q: So you must testify that Wagner was not telling the truth in his affidavit, mustn't you?
A: Certainly, certainly, because I knew nothing of that chart.
Q: I just want to make the record clear about your position. I don't want to have the record show that you might have forgotten this. Wagner know you as distinguished from Hirt. He wouldn't confuse you with Hirt?.
A: But one would have to assume that I should remember a man like Wagner if I had given him an assignment.
Q: I was asking whether Wagner could possibly have made any mistake as between you and Hirth. That is not very likely, is it?
A: I don't know, but I have seen from other passages of the transcript that I was carried there as an assistant of Hirt's, so it is possible that there may be a mistake of that kind.
Q: Well, Professor, I don't want to argue with you about these Lost gas experiments, but on the other hand I want you to be advised so that you can make statements now that Mr. Mollis, whm you say you do not remember, that he was an inmate in Natzweller, and it says he was assigned to you as an assistant in 1944. Pardon me, that is incorrect. I am speaking of another witness now. He says that you supervised autopsies of persons who had been killed in these poison gas experiments in Natzweller in the early part of 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: Whom are you referring to, counsel? Whom does "he" refer to?
MR. McHANEY: Mollis, Your Honors. Pardon me. Now let me get this straight. Let's go to the witness Boegars first.
DR. TIPP: May it please the Tribunal. Mr. McHancy refer's apparently to a statement made by the witness. In the witness' testimony, I cannot remember that a testimony of this kind had been introduced in this trial up to now. So far it has been the custom that such documents could only be used in the cross examination if they had been submitted previously. Perhaps Mr. McHaney will be kind enough to submit the document to us before he discusses it with the witness.
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, the presccution is rather in the middle. I suppose that if we call witnesses, which we certainly intend to do, to testify about Haagen's activities in Natzweiler, and they testify about his Lost gas activities, there that then the defense counsel will complain that Haagen should be recalled and be given an opportunity to answer that. Now I am anticipating that certain witnesses whom we have interviewed will testify concerning Lost gas experiments with which this witness was allegedly connected. Now if he wants to say that is impossible, that he never had anything to do with Lost gas experiments, we can go on.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel merely requested that the document which the prosecution was referring to be exhibited to him. That is as far as his request went.
MR. McHANEY: We have no document, Your Honor, of any probative value whatever. We have a little memorandum here made by a person who interviewed these witnesses.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal was not aware of what memorandum you had.
DR. TIPP: Mr. President, may I also emphasize the following: Mr. Hardy asserts here that Haagen had made experiments with Lost gas and he wants to question him on that. He could do that if Haagen were a defendant here, but Haagen, as far as I remember, is a witness specifically, a witness for schroeder and Becker-Freyseng.