BY DR. TIPP:
Q Witness, you said that the vaccine that was tested was tested in the insane asylum Wittenau and that the immunizing effect of the vaccine was made later tested in the mouse test. Is that so, witness? I don't believe it is necessary to describe the mouse test in detail again. Professor Hoering who was a witness for Dr. Rose described this mouse test to the Tribunal at great length. Now, toll me why inmates of an insane asylum in particular were used for those experiments.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, what is the revalancy of that question as to any charge against that defendant or any defendant?
DR. TIPP: Mr. President, I am returning again to what I said this morning. The prosecution has not said on what it bases the charge against Schroeder. If fir. Hardy will say that the experiments in Wittenau are not being regarded as evidence of human being experiments, initiated by Schroeder, I can drop this whole subject. Before the prosecution so states, however, that is unfortunately not possible, because prosecution witnesses have said that human being experiments were carried out in Berlin, Wittenau. In other words, I do not know whether I can drop this question without having Mr. Hardy declare that these experiments in Wittenau are not used as a basis for any of the charges against Schroeder.
HR. HARDY: Your Honor, it is quite obvious what the charges are against the defendant Schroeder. I don't think it is necessary for the prosecution to give their closing statement at this time. The defendant is charged with plans and enterprises involving experimentation in yellow fever, epidemic, jaundice, in various concentration camps and on inmates thereof; we have never even mentioned experiments in insane asylums in connection with those experiments. The witness here is the man who is alleged to have conducted the experiments. If he conducted the experiments ho can testify whether he did or whether he didn't and who gave him the orders.
I don't see the necessity for going into all those particular matters that are so far afield. We have had export witnesses testify on each field. We have got Gutzeit and Schmidt and various witnesses for Rose and the defendant Rose himself. Now, the point is whether or not this witness can testify as to the fact that Schroeder gave him orders to conduct experiments or whether Schroeder gave him the research assignment or whether BeckerFreyseng gave him the research assignment and were the experiments conducted on human beings in a concentration camp as alleged in the indictment, upon people without their consent. I don't see the necessity for continually asking the prosecution to give a full closing statement at this time. It is obvious if he has documents to discuss that is perfectly material and the significance of various documents I can see that -- but I can't see the materiality of this other evidence.
DR. TIPP: If I understand what Mr. Hardy said, he said that the experiments in Wittenau are not being used as a charge against Dr. Schroeder, but if the experiments in concentration camps are part of the charge against Mr. Schroeder then I can conclude that these experiments in the Wittenau insane asylum are not included in the charges. Perhaps I misunderstood Mr. Hardy, but in any case that seems to be the meaning of his statement. Now, if I have understood him correctly, and Mr. Hardy can answer that with yes or no, then I can drop all of the questions of the experiments in Wittenau. I don't know why he doesn't say so.
THE PRESIDENT: Do I understand that counsel for the prosecution has stated the alleged experiments on inmates of those insane asylums are not included in the charge against any of the defendants.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I have participated in drafting the indictment and I can't recall any language to that effect.
JUDGE SEBRING: Mr. Hardy, do you now make the statement they are not included within it?
MR. HARDY: Yes, Your Honor.
DR. TIPP: That is what I wanted to hear.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q. All right, then we may drop the question in regard to Wittenau, and let me ask you further, doctor, you said that the Robert Koch Institute received the assignment from the Navy to produce yellow fever vaccine. However, there are a number of documents here showing that you also received a research assignment from the Medical Inspectorate, a research assignment in the field of yellow fever. This is in Document Book No. 12, and please turn to page 80 in the English and 79 in the German text. Here is Document NO-137, Prosecution Exhibit 189. This is a letter to the Rector of the University of Strassbourg of the 7th of October, 1943. This document contains the research assignments that you received in detail. Witness, this contains your research assignments and it includes one from the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe. Do you have this document before you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Will you please tell us what the subject of this research assignment was?
A. This research assignment was an assignment to produce yellow fever vaccine. This was an assignment made by the Medical Inspectorate as can be seen by the letters where they refer to the Reich Air Ministry, Commander in Chief of the Luftwaffe, and Medical Inspectorate.
Q. Now you said that the assignment was given to the Robert Koch Hygienic Institute and Hygienic Institute of the University of Strassbourg, and to you as a member of these two institutes, is that not so?
A. Yes, that is correct; that goes back to Dr. Rose's suggestion. The first assignment did not affect me directly but only the Robert Koch Institute, but since it concerned the manufacture of vaccine it was referred to my laboratory. Only after I moved to Strassbourg did I receive an independent assignment of my own, or at least my institute did, and this was extended once or twice up to the year 1943, when Africa was lost, and at this time the Medical Inspectorate requested me not to produce any more vaccine but to keep all of the apparatus available that was necessary for such production, so that production could be started again later at any time.
Q. Witness, did you ever use human beings to test your yellow fever vaccines that you produced, within the meaning of the indictment, or, and this is the second question, did you ever receive any orders from the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe to carry out such experiments?
A. No, but I should like to say the following: The experiments of the sort that the prosecution charges, namely, that first a vaccination is carried out and then the person is injected with pathogenic germs to test the efficacy of the vaccination, such experiments could not have been carried on by us at all because we had no virus that was pathogenic for human beings nor did we need to, because, as I have already said, we had a very reliable procedure for testing the immunizing effects of a vaccine, namely, in this aforementioned mouse test.
Q. The Tribunal will remember that the statement Professor Haagen just made is substantiated by Professor Hoering on the 17th of April, 1947, before this Tribunal on page 6047 of the English transcript. Now, in conclusion I want to put to you a few more documents on these yellow fever experiments that the prosecution put in evidence and from which they draw the conclusion that you did carry out animal experiments, and that the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe was in some way involved in this. Please, witness, in this connection take a look at Document Book 12, page 109, Document 304, Exhibit 315. This is a letter from you of the 22nd of October, 1942, to the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe in Berlin, The subject reads: Research orders, file note 55, and so forch. We have tried to find in this letter some indication of human experimentation but we have not succeeded. Perhaps you, as an expert in this matter, can be of assistance to us.
A. This is my letter of 22 October.
Q. Yes, 22 October.
A. I regret being obliged to say that I cannot understand how any such construction could be put on this Letter. Any specialist can see from this application that this is an application for laboratory equipment, or for the equipment necessary for keeping experimental animals. The inclosures to the letter are very clearly directions for use for the yellow fever vaccine when it is being used for the troops. Such directions are included in vaccines in all of the countries of the world. That these are instructions for doctors with the troops can be seen from the last sentence in the document where it says, "The vaccination is not followed by skin reaction, general symptoms are usually absent occasionally mild headaches or physical discomfort occur. Any more serious reactions, especially manifestations of jaundice or albumine, must be reported immediately to the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe through official channels, mentioning Operation Number."
Now only a medical officer could use official channels so it is obviously absurd to suppose that this could have referred to human experi ments.
It was simply instructions for use. I think everyone here in this room has at one time or another in his life been vaccinated and as everyone knows the reaction is very slight, whether it is yellow fever or smallpox, and very little attention has been paid to this matter, although millions of such vaccinations lave been carried out through the whole world.
Q. Now, the next document, Professor, page 112, in the document book, Document NO-297, Exhibit 316. It is a letter with the letterhead of the Minister of Aviation and the High Command of the Air Force, Berlin, 14 July 1943, It is addressed to you; the subject is "Research Order for Yellow Fever Vaccine". You have already said that the manufacture of yellow fever vaccine was stopped after the loss of Africa and I wish to ask you whether that stopping had anything to do with this document here?
A. Yes, this letter of the 14th of July asks the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe to stop further production of yellow fever vaccine, etc., but it is requested to keep the existing equipment as I have already said. In other words, this letter concerns itself exclusively with the production or the interruption of the production of yellow fever vaccine. This letter certainly has nothing to do with human experimentation.
Q. Now, witness, the next document about yellow feVer experiments is on page 113. It is Document NO-139, Exhibit 317. This is a letter from the High Command of the Navy on the 7th of March, 1944, to you. Here mention is made of a Japanese Oberstabsarpt who should get yellow fever samples from Strassbourg. Now, this word, the German word "Probe", translated "samples", has en ominous ring in this trial. Will you tell us just what kind of yellow fever virus was in question here and whether it has anything to do with the planning of experiments on human beings.
A I have before me the letter of 7 March 1844, is that the one you are talking about?
Q Yes.
A T he Japanese army was probably interested in the production of yellow fever vaccine because the war in the Far East was being carried on in an area where yellow fever was present. We know that the yellow fever mosquitoes live there but didn't know much about the extent of the sickness. However, during the war, the widespread transportation spread the disease. At any rate, I assume that the Japanese army wanted to produce this yellow fever vaccine for that reason and a Japanese Oberstabearzt came to Germany to get such a fellow fever vaccine virus strain. This event also seems to have been construed as something criminal. T he word virus samples that was mentioned here and which has probably led to this misunderstanding. The German words "Virus Proben" are not to be translated as yellow fever virus experiments or tests, but as yellow fever virus samples. In other words, the German words ''Virus Proben" mean small amounts of the vaccine virus such as institutes send to each other throughout the whole world or which are sent to authorities for them to work on them and do whatever work they want to do. This then is the turning-over of a virus strain and has absolutely nothing to do with experiments of any sort.
Q Now, witness, the concluding question in this matter. With whom did you negotiate in the Medical Inspectorate regarding the production of this vaccine?
A Negotiations about this production assignment were carried on, first of all, with the hygiene referents. That was Stabsarzt Atmer, then the department chief, Dr. Martius, and then, of course also with the consulting hygienist, Professor Rose, who, open force, interested himself in these problems, particularly.
Q Did you ever talk about this production with Professor Schroeder?
A No, in the entire period during which the vaccine was being produced I didn't even see or speak with Schroeder at all.
Q Did you talk with Becker-Freyseng about this?
A No, neither in person nor in writing. At that time, as I have already said, I didn't know Becker-Freyseng at all.
Q I turn now to the next count, namely, the experiments with T.A.B. Chol.-vaccines. We don't know when these were alleged to have been carried out either and the only document that we have in this connection......
MR. HARDY (interrupting): Pardon me, Your Honor, I didn't get the translation of what the next subject will be.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q I am turning to the experiments with T.A.B. Chol.- vaccines. I have already said that I don't know of such experiments nor do I know how the Prosecution comes to know of such experiments. T he only document submitted in this matter is one that again bears your name. It is in Document Book 12, on page 120, Document NO-130, Exhibit 319. The letterhead is "Oberstabsarzt Prof. Dr. E. Haagen, Consulting Physician to the Air Fleet Physician R eich - Strasbourg, 4 August 1944. Subject: Report on the Successes with T.A.B. Chol. - Vaccines."
Witness, please tell us whether this is a report on a large scale human experiment with this T.A.B. Chol.- Vaccines."
And this is my letter of 4 August 1944. As can be seen from the letterhead, this is a report that I put out in my capacity as Consulting Hygienist for the Air Force Physician, Reich, regarding troop doctors' experiences with a vaccine that, at that time, hod recently been introduced into the Wehrmacht, namely, a combined vaccine immunizing against typhoid, para-typhoid and cholera, which was manufactured by various German firms. This report was typical of the work of the consulting hygienist, not only for the Air Force physicians, but for all other doctors in the army. A 11 troop doctors' experience reports in the field of hygiene reached me. I wan to evaluate what I read there and summarize it and submit it to the Air Force Physician and he, in turn, passed it on to the Medical Inspectorate if he felt that something of scientific importance was contained in one of these reports.
I do not believe that any other construction can be put on this report - namely, that it is an experience report - if one reads through it carefully and objectively. I have never seen a report of an American army doctor in the field of hygiene, but I can't imagine that it differs in any essential particulars from this report. Of human experiments or of criminal human experiments there is certainly no indication in this report. This is simply a compilation of the experiences that troop doctors had.
Q Now, Professor, we are coming to the last and perhaps the most decisive count of the indictment - namely, the typhus experiments, as the Prosecution calls them. Professor Schroeder and Professor BeckerFreyseng are charged with responsibility for such typhus experiments. There are two groups of them, according to the Prosecution. On the one hand, those carried on at Buchenwald concentration camp by Dr. DingSchuler and to a lesser extent by the defendant Dr. Hoven. The second group are the alleged typhus experiments that you carried out in the Natzweiler concentration camp. Before we turn to the individual experiments, Professor, please tell the Tribunal what the hazards of typhus were during the war, especially in the years 1943. 1944 and 1945 when this hazard became acute? Describe it only to the extent necessary in order to make your work understandable.
A I shall try to be brief, but in order to understand this whole problem one must be given some general information. Typhus is a very serious infectious disease which is included in international medical circles among the diseases which are of general danger and is consequently subject to international control, In cases of such hazardous and dangerous diseases, every state felt the moral obligation to do everything to prevent the outbreak of an epidemic because it is very difficult, once the epidemic has broken out, to combat it and eliminate it. This point of view was embraced, of course, not only by the govern ment officials, but also by the responsible and interested, scientists and physicians because we all, of course, knew how prodigious the danger of typhus is, not only for waging the war but also for the civilian population of the entire world.
Typhus is not only a war epidemic, but once it has taken root in the country it is also a peacetime epidemic which it is enormously difficult to combat.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the Tribunal is quite aware that typhus is a very dangerous disease that is a. great menace to humans and that it was a menace to Germany during the last war, great danger. I don't think it is necessary to elaborate that again. We have heard it from several. It's not denied, BY DR. TIPP:
Q Witness, you heard the Tribunal's wish. In the opinion of the Tribunal, the typhus danger for Germany has already been sufficiently proved. Please go on to the subject itself now. Perhaps you could speak of the usual preventive measures that are used against typhus, particularly as concerns vaccines.
A To prevent typhus there are, in general, two procedures. One is what I might call the mechanical procedure, and the other the biological procedure. In the mechanical procedure we are concerned with combatting the lice -- I shall not go into that -- but in the biological procedure we are interested in a protective vaccine. There are various vaccines available, and now to get down to the drux of the natter, I must say that the typhus vaccines that are made from dead typhus virus are not absolute protection against the disease. They may - lead to a milder form of the diseases, but the infection itself is not prevented. Dead typhus vaccine, in other words, has no absolute anti-infectious effect, which, however, is the main point of any vaccine.
We developed a living vaccine, not on the basis of our own experiences and research, but we made use of experiences of others. I should like to mention primarily the work of the French Typhus Research, Blanc, Baltasar, and assistants, Legrer, and Lecolle, When vaccinating a vaccine must be used that gives anti-infectious protection, and in general in the case of virus diseases successful vaccination is also achieved only with living virus. Let me mention the; examples of smallpox, influenza and yellow fever. In all these cases these are vaccines made from a living virus, but it is true that this virus has been mutated, that it is no longer pathogenic for human beings. It's pathogenic characteristics have been suppressed and have disappeared, but the virus retains its anti-infectious efficacy, This change is accomplished in two ways, either by passing the virus through an animal, -- this usually effects changes in the virus attenuating it, and sometimes affects mutation in the virus attenuating it, and sometime's affects mutation in the virus. I 'donit have to go into that, that would take up too much time.
Q. If I understand you correctly, witness, you roll as a scientist was to develop a vaccine from living virus, in other words from a nonpathogenic virus, but nevertheless had the anti-genic effect, namely the effect of protecting the vaccinated person against getting the disease later by infection, is that so?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Now, witness, nobody is reproaching you for having produced vaccines, but it is said you tested the effectiveness of your vaccines in a concentration camp. The prosecution call d these virulent, and you say that they were non-pathogenic. At any rate that is the Way I understood the reproach of the Prosecution, but first before we go into this, witness, will you please tell the court how did it ever happen that you in this matter came into contact with the concentration camp Natzweiler?
A. The development of typhus throughout the war was that typhus was not a purely war epidemic, but because of the many transports, military, civilian and prisoner of war, and others typhus had been brought into Germany, too, especially in the overcrowded camps, and lack of sanitary installations, there was considerable danger from typhus, particularly where people assembled who came from the east. I have only to say that in the Auschwitz camp, for example, but also in many other prisoner camps in the east there had already been extensive epidemics. Typhus pressed further and further into Germany. Dr. Rose has already told you how many cases of typhus there were, and this shows what constituted the great danger. Every closed community like a camp is a great source of danger in itself, of the danger of typhus, not only the danger of an epidemic within the camp, but also an epidemic that spreads to the. surrounding civilian population. Most of the concentration camp inmates were used to work outside the camp in factories, and those came into contact with the civilian population, so you can easily sen the danger of contagion. Nov, in brief, the camp commander, and the camp doctor in the course of the spring of 1943 turned to me to ask me whether they could have my assistance in combating this danger.
Q. Witness, a preparatory question, first, did you have any connection with the SS, with the concentration camp, as such?
A. I had no connection with the SS or with the concentration camps or with any office in charge of them.
Q. How come the camp commander and the camp physician of the Natzweiler concentration camp turned specifically to you.
A. As director of the Eugenic Institute I had a rather large sphere of activity in Alsace, and of course it was known in the concentration camps, too that my offices were an Strassbourg. For this reason the camp turned to me for the help it wanted in many matters, including the obtaining vaccines and help in disinfection of the camp, and so forth, matters which perhaps we shall turn to later.
Q. You say then that the camp turned to you because you were the hygienist in the Alsatian district around Strassbourg?
A. That is correct.
Q. You said also that the camp commander or doctor asked for your assistance?
A. Yes, thru was an obvious thing for him to do, because I was right there in Strassbourg.
Q. You said further that it was roughly in the spring of 1943 that these requests for assistance were made to you; was there an. epidemic in the camp already, at that time, or why did they think they needed your help?
A. At that time there was no epidemic in the camp, but the general epidemeological situation was such that an outbreak of typhus was expected at any moment, especially since transports were continually coming from the east which were infected with lice, and people who ware already infected, with typhus, and other camps in the neighborhood who had already had their first cases of typhus.
Q. Professor, what mean's did you have available to help these camps physicians; please limit yourself; first of all your vaccines?
A. I have already said that there are various vaccines available made from dead virus, and also those male from living and attenuated virus. Getting virus at that time was vary difficult. The superior officers simply could not make the effective vaccines available, and in order to carry out any plans all sorts of decrees and orders existed in Germany for the planning of systematic vaccination should the danger of typhus arise.
Q. Now, witness, you have described your work in the field of vaccine production, namely that of producing a living apathogenic virus, did you begin this developing and working on your own initiative, or did some other agency refer the problem to you?
A. Living typhus virus was being manufactured in foreign countries at that time in groat quantity, particularly in France where they had had a groat deal of experience with such living virus. I have already mentioned Blanc, Baltasar, Lecolle and Legrer, and during the war protective vaccines were carried out with such living virus in North africa. There had already boon millions of such vaccinations, and of course this permitted experience to be gathered. The fact that the French, who saw this groat danger also saw the necessity of such largo scale vaccines, and they had also had a few fatalities. As I said, we had to use a virus strain for those vaccinetious which was it is true was alive and still pathogenic for animals. In ether words, a virulent virus which the pathogenic effect of which on human beings was suppressed to a large extent and that is the essence of all living vaccine manufacture, and it must occupy the central position in our considerations here. You bring about such mutation only by passing the virus through animals, and every specialist knows when the virus is passed through animals it is attenuated there more than by being cultured or bred, for instance, in chicken yolks or by being preserved in a vaccuum, or at very low temperatures and only somewhat attenuated in strain.
Q. witness, you still haven't answered my question fully whether you carried out his work on your own initiative or on the basis of an order, directive or assignment that came to you from elsewhere?
A. In developing this living typhus vaccine -
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you can answer that question in a very few words. Just answer the question propounded to you by your counsel.
A. (continued) This was a research assignment, as I just said, there was no military directive or directive.
Q. Witness, you have already described how research assignments wore distributed this morning, and told us that in general the assignment was made on the application of a scientist for such an assignment; now what was the case hero, did you work on this problem first and then receive an assignment or was there already an assignment in existence and then you began to work?
A. Oh, I see. All this work was done entirely on my own initiative, and then I saw to it that I got the necessary research assignment so that I could have the necessary funds for the work from the Reich Research Council, and then from the Radical Chief of the Luftwaffe. That is where I had my assignment from.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, before we adjourn may I inquire from the counsel how long the examination will continue, and how long other defense counsels will take in their examination of the witness Haagen.
DR. TIPP: I have already said I will need roughly a day and a half. We have already eliminated some of the questions, I don't know if I can finish this afternoon, but I shall not need so much time tomorrow morning. What time my other colleagues will need I cannot toll you.
MR. HARDY: Do I understand Dr. Tipp is going to take the rest of the day, in spite of the fact that we sit until 5 o'clock?
DR. TIPP: I shall use all of this day, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other defense counsel desire to examine this witness while he is on the stand?
DR. TIPP: Dr. Nelte just tells me that he will need a quarter of an hour and my colleague Krauss for Rostock fifteen minutes.
DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, I cannot say definitely now how long I shall need because I do not know how many of the questions I intend to put to the witness will be made unnecessary by Dr. Tipp's examination.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is only asking for an estimate.
DR. FRITZ: One hour.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, during the noon recess will you instruct your witness to answer your questions directly and simply without expostulating on matters while scientific and important the Tribunal has already been advised. Kindly instruct him and to explain him to answer those questions.
The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30 (Thereupon the noon recess was taken.)
AFTERNOON SESSION.
(The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 18 June 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
EUGEN HAAGEN - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. TIPP:
Q. Professor, before the recess you said that you began your worm in the field of typhus on your own initiative and that in the curse of this work y u attained research assignments from the Medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe as well as the Reichs Research Counsel; now could I ask you if in your applications made before the various assignments were issued, wore any details given about the work which you planned to carry out or the work which you already had carried out?
A. No details were given, of course, merely the problem as such was dealt with.
Q. You have already described to the Tribunal your work on this problem, it was to find a vaccine produced from living virus, a virus no longer path genic for human beings which however contained the qualities of the virus.
A. Yes that is true. Our work was limited to the development of a living vaccine and this work was based on the great experiences of foreign offices, especially the French scientific Blanc; the technical side was always carried out in animal experiments.
Q. Now, witness, Did you succeed in finding a vaccine of the type described?
A. Yes we did succeed from a so-called murine typhus virus strain, from rat typhus we developed such a vaccine. The weakling was brought about through animal experiments through cultivation in chicken eggs and thirdly through conservation procedure.
Q. Was this vaccine then tested for its effectiveness and if so, how?
A. Yes, the vaccine was tested for its effectiveness, first, of course, by animal experiments for its immunizing qualities. After this quality had been proven the first vaccinations were undertaken in order to test the effectiveness and the tolerance on human beings. This was done on volunteers.
Q. Where did you get these volunteers, Professor?
A. First of all I served myself, then the members of my institute and a number of students of the University.
Q. Now will you please tell the purpose of these experiments?
A. When one has produced a new vaccine one must test not only its effectiveness, but also its tolerability, That can be done only on human beings, animal experiments are not sufficient. At a certain stage it always becomes necessary to try it on human beings.
Q. In these vaccinations on members of the institute and students, you tested the tolerability of the vaccine; the immunizing effect of the vaccine, if I understood you correct, could not be proven by these experiments?
A. Yes, the immunizing effect can also be determined. One needs merely to make the Weil-Felix reaction, which has been mentioned in this trial, to make sure in the body serum there are protective oodles against the typhus germ. T is test, I mention this because mistakes have been made here, is used not only to diagnose the disease, but also to check its immunity reaction to find the protective bodies after vaccination.
Q. We will come back to that later, witness. Now when did you achieve your aim, when did you have a vaccine of the type described and when did you develop it so far that it could be used?
A. In the spring of 1943.
Q. And when was this vaccine first used actually on a large scale or when was it first used at all?
A. The first vaccinations were carried out in May of 1943 in the Schirmeck internment camp, which belonged to the Natzweiler concentration camp. The vaccinations were performed on persons in special danger.
Q. This morning, witness, you mentioned the request of a camp doctor of the Natzweiler Concentration Camp and Schirmeck was no doubt under him; may I ask whether these Schirmeck vaccinations go back to the request of the camp physician?
A. I do not quite understand your question.
A. Please tell mo whether the vaccinations performed in Schirmeck originated with the request of the camp physician?
A. Yes, Schirmeck and Natzweiler belong together. My vaccinations there were in connection with all the work of the camp.
Q.- Then you used this vaccine for the first time in May of 1943 in Schirmek. How many persons did you vaccinate?
A.- Twenty-eight persons were vaccinated altogether.
Q.- Did. you have any influence on the selection of these persons; that is, were these persons selected by you, or who selected them?
A.- I did not have any direct influence on the selection of these persons, only to that extent that I told the camp administrator and the camp doctor that we could only vaccinate people who were in a more or less good condition of health, since if this were not the case it would not- correspond, to our German vaccination laws. To that extent I did have some influence.
The selection was made according to the point of view that persons in special danger of typhus were selected, persons who were in the socalled east block of the camp. New transports were always coming from the East, lice infected, for the most part, so that one could court on a considerable typhus danger. In this mart of the camp the danger was greater than in the parts of the camp where there were Germans and Alsatians who did not come from the East.
Q.- You said, witness, the persons were selected from the group of prisoners in special danger of contracting typhus. You just mentioned the east block. Can you tell us what nationality these persons were?
A.- As far as I can remember they were of various nationalities, There were a quite number of them who spoke German, so that one could talk to them well.
Q.- Now, witness, I should like to ask you to describe how these vaccinations were carried out. Perhaps a preliminary question first. Why did you vaccinate only 28 persons? Why did you not vaccinate all the inmates of the cans there?
A.- At first I could produce the vaccine only in very small quantities. My laboratory facilities were very limited. If I had wanted to vaccinate a whole camp I would have had to have a production workshop.