A 15 to 17 year olds worked anti-aircraft guns in large numbers in 1944.
Q They were working anti-aircraft guns, were they flying in the planes?
A No.
Q It wouldn't have been very likely that a young boy of 16 years of age would be isolated on a raft at sea as far as the Luftwaffe was concerned?
A That was unlikely, yes, but in the case of a young person, of course, one would expect that he would suffer less from the medical point of view. A 16-year old would be able to hold out better than a 20 year old.
Q Is that why you permitted a boy of 16 to be subjected to these experiments, or didn't you concern yourself with his age?
A He was quite well developed. In my opinion 16 years is not a reason why a person can't drink sea water for a few days. You can see the experiment was stopped very suddenly on the 5th day. The entire loss of weight--he drank water in the meantime - for example, from the third to fourth day not only doesn't he lose anything but he gains weight. The total loss of weight in the experiment was 4 kilo.
Q Did you perform any surgery on this subject on 6th of September?
A No.
Q Was it necessary to give him a series of injections, or what are those penciled notations below the black line in the middle of page 40, under the date "6th Sept."?
A These words under the black line mean after the experiment was broken off, he was given water several times in doses of 200,one, two, three, four, that is he took a liter of water in doses of 200 cc. every hour or every two hours. That was not infusion, that was the amount he drank.
Q What was the room temperature of the room in which the subjects were kept?
A I can't tell you at the moment. It was the beginning of September or of August, and probably not very hot.
Q Does the temperature at which a room is kept have any bearing on the outcome of the experiment?
A Of course the temperature has a certain influence as far as there is perspiration high temperature has an influence. When secretion stops, this influence is no longer important.
Q Did you attempt to keep this room at a temperature simulating temperatures that may be found at sea?
A In my opinion temperature at sea varies considerably. It depends on whether one is at the equator or near Greenland.
Q Would you repeat that again. I don't believe I understood you.
A I said temperature at sea varies considerably. It makes a big difference whether one is in distress at sea on the equator or whether one is near Greenland.
Q To simulate temperature would be necessary only for a very specific case. Here we just took the temperatures that happened to be.
Q Did you consider the temperature of a room had no bearing on the results of effects of the experimentation in sea water research?
A Of course the temperature has a certain influence, but it cannot be done in practice any other way than to carry out the experiments in a room.
Q It is pretty warm in August and September in the area of Dachau, is it not?
A The end of August or beginning of September it was not so warm anymore. It was the beginning of fall.
Q Well, the climate in Dachau is similar to the climate here in Nurnberg, isn't it?
A I presume so. I don't have any exact information on the subject.
Q Did you make any effort to install fans or to put in cooling apparatus in the barracks or the experimental station wherein the experiments on these 44 subjects were performed?
A There was ventilation constantly. All the windows were open and besides the temperature was not very high at the time of the experiments. It is possible when the people arrived, which was the beginning of August, it might have been warm for awhile, but when the experiments proper started the temperature was quite bearable, no special heat.
Q We have seen in most of these charts that you had a 7-day or 8-day, or perhaps a 6-day observation period of each subject prior to the commencement of the experiment, and during that observation period the experimental subjects received additional rations. In addition to that what physical routine did the experimental subjects go through?
A The subjects were not given any further treatment. They were given this just this diet; we made urine tests and sometimes blood tests; they could move freely, go walking in the courtyard; they had complete freedom of movement within our area.
Q Well, now, on the weight charts we have been considering here for the last day or two, you show the weights of the experimental subjects prior to the 7-day observation period, wherein they received additional rations. What can you tell us as to the weights of those subjects as compared to the weight, or the normal weight of a person of their particular height and stature, were they of average weight, underweight or overweight?
A For the most part they were within the normal deviations from the average. I will read that: One was one meter 69, 63.5 kilo.
That is quite normal. The next was 169, 64 kilo. The next was 160, with 56 kilos. The next 168 with 62 kilos. The next was 167, with 61 kilos. On the whole perhaps there were a few who were a little below average, but only a very few, a very few exceptions.
Q How would their weights or sizes compare to that of a Luftwaffe aviator, wore they of the normal German aviator type?
A I believe that in the year 1944 these weights were quite the average weights in Germany.
Q Now, these men averaged about 60 kilos, that is striking an average, isn't that so, or about 120 pounds?
A Yes. But you must consider that these are rather short persons; I have just given you the height. They are about 160. Some of them are even under 160, one 157, 159, one 162, one 160. Some of them were taller, but the average was quite noticeably shorter. It makes a difference whether a person is 159 cent. tall or 180 in regard to the normal weight.
Q Could a person underweight endure a sea water experiment better than a person of normal weight?
A Most of them had normal weight or even increased under the special diet. At least their weight was in such proportion to their height that they could endure the experiment.
Q For instance, could an overweight like myself endure a sea water experiment as well as a person of normal weight?
A I do not consider it impossible that it would be worse for him. Someone who is much overweight has the water in his body much more firmly and suffers more from a lack of water than a thinner person, that is a fact.
MR. HARDY: I have no further question to put to Dr. Beigelboeck.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess 5 minutes until the Tribunal is re-arranged.
MR. HARDY: Does Dr. Steinbauer have any questions about the charts that he wants to ask while the Tribunal is here?
THE PRESIDENT: I should have asked that. I will ask counsel for defendant Beigelboeck if he has any redirect examination of the defendant on these charts we have just been looking at.
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Then we will proceed with that matter here.
Redirect Examination.
DR. STEINBAUER: How many liver punctures can you see in this chart?
THE WITNESS: It will take me quite a while to find them. I believe, however, I can remember even though I only have a vague recollection; there were eight.
MR. HARDY: I suggest that when he names the case where there was a liver puncture, he will state the case number.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the witness observe that when a liver puncture is named, he will state the case number.
THE WITNESS: Numbers 12, 13, 20, 24, 29, 30, 31, 32, and 38; that is all.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. The Prosecutor showed you a number of charts, I should like to ask you now to look at the charts which he did now show you; the first was No. 2, so let us discuss No. 1. Tell us briefly how it was and how long this person was in the experiment and especially if he drank water. I consider this last point especially important.
A. I believe No. 2 has already been discussed.
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, No. 2. I think for certain that he drank water once between the 25th and 26th.
Q. And the next one, No. 5?
A. No. 5 certainly drank a larger amount of water between the 26th and 27th. It is quite certain in this case. In 24 hours he went from 57.2 to 57 Kilograms, a loss of only 200 grams. That is impossible.
Q. And then 6?
A. I believe that he observed the conditions of the experiment the whole time, and it was interrupted on the fifth day.
Q. No. 10, where there is no number on it?
A. No. 10 is a Schaefer case and there is no question of drinking water against the rules. The next one which is not marked is No. 12. On the 4th day of the experiment, from the fourth to the fifth lost 100 grams, so he drank at least one half liter or three-quarter liter of water. From the 28th to 29th he not only does not lose, but he gains 600 grams. I must assume on that day he drank at least a liter of water. That is a case where I would be certain that he drank on and one half to two liters of water, and what I figured out theoretically would correspond to that.
We have discussed No. 13, we have discussed No. 14. Of course, in the cases which we have discussed here some drank water, without its having been mentioned expressly, and I shall put this in the statement for the Tribunal which I shall write down about this matter of weight.
No. 15 has not been discussed. On the 4th day of the experiment, weight was 55.9 kilograms and the next day 56 Kilograms. That is also an increase in weight. He had 500 cc of sea-water for six days in the experiment and drank at least one liter of fresh water.
No. 16 is a typical case where the sea water drinking had the same effect. He got so much fresh water in between that he hardly had any loss at all, at least in the beginning. From the 25th to the 26th he loses only 400 grams. From the 26th to the 27th his weight remains the same. From the 27th to 28th he loses 200 grams. That is no of the cases who drank water constantly.
Case 19 on the second day weighed 48.7 kilograms, on the third day 48.2; on the fourth day 48.1, and on the fifth day 48.3, and then he starts to lose weight and was in the experiment for two more days. That is another case, he he drank water daily.
He was in the experiment a second time during which he drank water constantly again, his loss from the 2nd to 3rd was 500 grams; 3rd to 4th 200 grams, then the experiment was interrupted for the second time because he failed to carry out the experiment.
No. 20 from the 2nd to 3rd day he loses 400 grams, this is much too little. From the 4th to 5th day he loses 100 grams; after the 6th day the experiment is broken off. He was also in the experiment twice. The second time for five days he lost a total of four kilograms and from the 2nd to the 3rd day of the experiment shows an increase of 100 grams. He failed to conform to the conditions of the experiment for the second time too.
Case No. 24 from the 3rd to 4th day loses 200 grams, from the 4th to the 5th day he loses 300 grams, from the 5th to the 6th day he loses 300 grams and then for two more days about 1 kilogram per day and then the experiment is broken off. The experiment lasted for nine days, bat the total loss of weight was six kilograms. That is a certain sign that he drank water constantly. Those were the cases which deceived me where I did not know what the cause of the failure to lose weight was, because I could not know that. That is why the experiment was continued.
No. 26 was not discussed either. He had a regular loss of weight. The experiment is broken off on the 6th day.
Case 27 is a typical example. From the 3rd to the 4th day he loses 200 grams, from the 4th to the 5th day he loses 600 grams, from the 30th to 31st, 500 grams; another case that drank water.
Case 28, that shows such a slight average loss of weight that one can assume that the experiment was interfered with by drinking water, which he began on the second day and from and from the 2nd to 3rd day the loss of weight was only 100 grams.
At the beginning of the experiment, the losses are usually more pronounced; later the loss of weight is relatively less. This shows he drank small amounts of water every day.
Case 29 possibly drank little. From the 26th to 27th I think that he drank something. The experiment was broken off on the 7th day. In the second experiment, from the 3rd to 4th day he loses 200 grams and the experiment went on only to the fifth day.
I should like to say that in the second group, when I knew their devices from my experiences with the first group, I knew what to do and broke off the experiments. If I had wanted to continue the experiments, I would have done it in the second group too. This I did in the first group only because at first I did not realize the significance of the failure to lose weight.
Case 31. That is a case of a thousand cc, where one would expect relatively great losses of weight. From the third to the fourth day he loses only six hundred grans; from the fourth to the fifth day only three hundred grams; so that one can assume a water intake of one and a half liters, at least.
Case 32 probably cooperated rather well. He was taken out on the sixth day. A careful examination of these charts will show that when nothing was drunk the experiment was always short. Where a great deal was drunk, the condition was such that there was no reason to interfere with the experiment.
Case 33. From the third to the fourth day he loses two hundred grams; from the fourth to the fifth day again two hundred grams, and, nevertheless, it is stopped on the sixth day.
Case 34 is one of the Schaefer group.
Case 35 from the first to the second day loses only five hundred grams although the amount of urine alone has this weight, so that the loss of weight through hunger or through the reduced amount of food in this case and the loss of water through the lungs does not amount at all. He must have drunk something. From the third to the fourth day the weight remains the same. From the fourth to the fifth day he loses five hundred grans although the amount of urine is eight hundred cc greater than the intake of water. These three hundred cc more that he loses must be included in these five hundred so that this means that he drank something. In suite of all the amount that he has drunk, he was taken out of the experiment on the sixth day.
Q. Is that the one with the inflammation of the veins?
A. No, that case was not discussed. That was not an acute inflammation. Many of these gypsies had old skin infections as the picture will show, what medicine calls Vagrant's Skin, from insect bites or going barefoot, and this caused chronic thrombophlebitis. That is not a disease but a chronic change of the veins.
Case 33 has been discussed. That was the one who was taken out on the fourth day.
Case 37 probably from the third to the fourth day drank a little water, probably not very much. On the whole it was one of the better experiments. On the sixth day he was taken out of the experiment.
Case 38 -- from the second to the third day the loss of weight of two hundred cc, although the kidneys alone eliminated three hundred cc.. This indicates with certainty an intake of water. From the fourth to the fifth day the weight remains the same. Nevertheless, this case was taken out of the experiment on the sixth day.
Case 39 has already been discussed. That is the 49-year-old who always drank water and actually did not participate in any experiment, really.
Case 40, from the third to the fourth day, increases in weight by one hundred grams. He certainly drank something. On the fifth day he was taken out of the experiment. That was the 16-year-old who was in a very brief experiment.
Case 41 has a relatively slight loss of weight from day to day. His total loss of weight within a six-day experiment period amounts to three kilograms. He begins with forty-nine kilograms and ends the experiment with forty-six. That is one of the cases who was rather clever. He took small amounts regularly and that is hard to prove. It is impossible for a person who is in a similar experiment for six days, when he has less calories than he needs, to lose only three kilograms in this long time. This loss of weight is less than what many people in the Schaefer group had.
Case 42. From the third to the fourth day the weight did not change - or, rather, he loses a hundred grams although the amount of urine was two hundred grams more than the intake. One must assume here again that up to three-quarters of a liter of water was drunk and, although from the fourth to the fifth day he eliminates part of this amount of water and had four hundred cc more urine, the loss of weight is only seven hundred grams.
That is hardly possible. He certainly drank water twice. He was taken out of the experiment on the seventh day.
Case 43 from the third to the fourth day of the experiment gains one hundred/grams; judging by the amount of urine alone he must have drunk five hundred cc of water at this time. Nevertheless, the experiment is interrupted on the sixth day.
And Case 44 is from the Schaefer group.
Q. Now, which groups drank water according to these tables?
A. Giving the subjects the benefit of the doubt, I have calculated that from the group of a thousand cc no one was more than three days without fresh water, not a single person. I figured that out subsequently. From the group which got five hundred cc of sea water about 20 to 25 percent showed good results. Those were all cases where the experiment was stopped in a short time, on the sixth day at the latest. Everybody that lasted longer was someone who drank water; and, to the best of my ability, and using methods which I think any doctor would approve of, I figured out the loss of body weights and I shall hand that statement in in writing later. There is not a single case who lost so much body weight that he was in any danger of damage to his health by loss from water.
Q. That chart can be checked by the curves - that is, an expert can compare them?
A. Yes. The total loss of weight is entered in this curve and that figure is taken from the chart.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, I should like to show these weight charts to the expert, which are in Document Book 2 and is No. 36. This is a photostat. If I may submit them now so that they may be show to Mr. Ivy and so that I may ask him questions about these charts, I will give it an exhibit number later. No, it will be Exhibit 23.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may present them to the witness in due time.
JUDGE SEBRING: As I understand your statement, doctor, you have certain weight charts which you would like to have the expert who is going to be called by the prosecution see and study, prior to the time that he takes the stand so that when it comes time for your crossexamination you may propose to him hypothetical questions based upon these figures and then you will then save time because he has had them available for study.
Is that correct?
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, you can consult prosecution to see when they can be submitted to Dr. Ivy, the expert.
DR. HOCHWALD: I shall do my best to get it through to Dr. Ivy, but, inasmuch as he is going to take the stand at one-thirty, I do not think it will be possible for him to study these charts before this afternoon. Possibly, if defense counsel will submit them now, Dr. Ivy will be prepared to answer questions submitted by defense counsel tomorrow.
THE PRESIDENT: It may be submitted to the expert, Dr. Ivy, and he will consider them when possible.
DR. STEINBAUER: It is missing in your document book, Your Honors.
JUDGE SEBRING: What number did you give that?
DR. STEINBAUER: 23. This document consists of two parts, a photostat chart and a typewritten chart. The typewritten chart I have taken from the cross-examination by Mr. Hardy. It contains the experiments which were repeated.
Those are cases 11, 13, 17, 18, 19, 20, 29, and 31. I repeat, 11, 13, 17, 18, 19, 20, 29, 31.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand that those numbers refer to the experimental subjects; is that correct?
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, the subjects, according to these charts which we have discussed today.
DR. HOCHWALD: I just note that this typewritten sheet is only in German. Possibly Dr. Steinbauer has some list for the sake of the Expert Witness which he could and over.
DR. STEINBAUER: We can see from this big chart there are only a few figures -- a weight chart; there are none in English.
DR. HOCHWALD: Only the typewritten chart has an explanation to the numbers, and is given in German. I only want to know if you possess a translation.
DR. STEINBAUER: Because of the lack of time, it was not possible. It has not been translated as yet.
JUDGE SEBRING: I would suggest that if the translators have a copy of the German, one page I examined, they have written in pencil the English translation of the German text on that shoot.
DR. HOCHWALD: I will try to get the translations.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Counsel have any further questions?
DR. STEINBAUER: One very brief question.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. You testified about giving drinking water orally or intravenously, and you used various signs for that; one sign in the Chart is "HP". You said that was Hypotonic table salt. It was thought that that meant brain punctures, but I want you to state this "HP" is always at the end and has something to do with the interruption of the experiments.
Would you please with the aid of the chart show me very briefly where this "HP" is, that it is at the end of the experiment?
A. Yes, the "HP" also means that the experiment was interrupted. There was no puncture of the brain, in any cases, and I never in my life performed a puncture of the brain. It was a Hypotonic solution that was introduced. It is Oralor Parenteral; Oral means through the mouth, Parenteral means the introduction through the veins.
DR. STEINBAUER: I have no questions about the chart, but I should like to ask questions in the direct examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is almost time for the recess. The redirect examination will wait until the close of Dr. Ivy's testimony.
The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(Whereupon the Tribunal recessed until 1330 hours, 12 June 1947.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 12 June 1947).
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, at this time the Prosecution desires to call Dr. Andrew C. Ivy to the witness stand?
THE PRESIDENT: Has the witness sheet been made for Dr. Ivy? It can be made as soon as possible.
MR. HARDY: I will have it completed and filed at a later date, you Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Beiglboeck will resume his place in the dock his testimony being interrupted due to an emergency call for another witness.
The Marshal will summon the witness Dr. Ivy to the stand.
Dr. Andrew C. Ivy, a witness, took the stand testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will raise his right hand and be sworn. Repeat after me?
I swear that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q Witness, what is your full name?
AAndrew Conway Ivy.
Q When and where were you born?
A I was born in Farmington, Missouri, February 25, 1893.
Q Will you at this time briefly outline for the Tribunal your educational background, specifying the degrees you hold, and other particulars thereof.
A I received my grammar school, education in several states Missouri, Tennessee, Georgia. I received my college education in Missouri. I received the Master of Science degree and the Doctor of Physiology degree from the University of Chicago, Doctor of Medicine degree from Rush Medical College in affiliation with the University Chicago. I have been granted the honorary Doctor of Science degree.
Q What has been your experience in the educational field, doctor?
A I taught physiology in the University of Chicago for four years, School of Medicine for four years at Northwestern University of Chicago for 20 years and now I am Vice President of the University of Illinois in charge of the College of Medicine, Dentistry, Pharmacy, and and at the same time distinguished professor of physiology in the graduate school of the University of Illinois.
Q Do you maintain membership in various medical societies? If so, would you kindly elicit for the Tribunal just what societies you are a member in?
A Member of American Council of Physicians, American Medical Association. I have been chairman of the Section of Physiology and Pathology of the American Medical Association. Member of American Physiological Society of which I have been president and member of the American Gastro-Enterological Assn. of which I have-been president, a member of the Society of Experimental Biology of which I have been past chairman, member of numerous other specialty societies and have been president for example of the Institute of Medicine Society of Internal Medicine of Chicago.
Q Will you outline for the Tribunal briefly what research experience you have had?
A My research as pertained principly to subjects in physiological and clinical investigation. Most of my work has been in the field of the alimentary tract, more recently in the field of aviation medicine. I have published some 900 articles in the various fields of research in medicine. During the War I was scientific director of the Naval Medical Research Institute which covered research in all fields of human biology.
Q Have you been a member of the Committee on Clinical Investigation of the National Research Council?
A I have been a member of several committees of the National Research Council of the United States. I was a member of the Committee on Clinical Investigation since 1939, a member of the Committee on Decompression Sickness, a member of the Committee on Fatigue-and Nutrition as related to industrial workers. I am a member of the Committee on Aviation Medicine, also of the National Research Council.
Q Were you also a consultant to the plans of the Quartermaster General of the United States?
A Yes. Consultant of the Surgeon General of the United States Army in the Division of Nutrition, consultant to the Board of Medicine and Surgery of the United States Navy.
Q And in addition to your duties as consultant to the Bureau of Medicine and Surgery of the United States Navy you were scientific director of the Naval Medical Research Institute?
A Yes. I served in that capacity for 9 months during the later part of 1942 and most of 1943. My function was to organize the staff of the institute and start its production in research.
Q Doctor, I will interrupt you for a moment. In as much as this interrogation is in the English language, after I ask a question if you will, kindly hesitate for a moment before answering so that the interpreter can properly interpret the answers and questions into the German language.
And, more recently, doctor, have you served in the capacity as an expert to the Secretary of War, selected by the American Medical Association?
A Yes, I have been serving in that capacity, selected at the request of the Secretary of War by the Board of Trustees of the American Medical Association.
Q First of all, in this examination, doctor, I desire to ask you some questions relative to research in the field of aviation medicine. First, what are your research qualifications relative to explosive decompression or the situation to which persons flying in a pressure cabin aircraft would be exposed when flying at 40 to 60 thousand feet if the cabin were ruptured by gun fire?
AAs a member of the Committee on Aviation Medicine and the Committee on Decompression Sickness of the National Research Council I recently published two articles on problems pertaining to decompression sickness. One appeared in the Journal of Aviation Medicine early last fall. Another in the Journal of the American Medical Association, I believe either in December or January.
Q What are your research qualifications relative to decompression sickness or pressure drop sickness?
A I have just indicated that. I have made a special study of the cause and symptoms of chokes or coughing which occur under certain conditions at high altitude. I made a special study of the cause of bends or pains in the region of the joints on exposure to high altitude. I have made a special study of free fall through the air. In 1940 and 1941 we had a professional parachute jumper bail out or jump out of the plane at an altitude of 32,500 feet and fall without opening the parachute to a level of around 2000 feet where he opened his parachute. We were interested, in the effect of free fall on heart rate and respiration and other physiological functions. This jumper had attached to him 100 pounds of physiological apparatus. We had electrodes connected to his chest so that the heart beat could be broadcast out over the air down to the ground to be recorded on a wax disc. We had a device, a recording barograph, so a curve of the rate of fall through the air could be made. We had a neurograph or an apparatus for making; a record of the rate of amplitude of respiration and other devices for making studies of the physiological responses to free fall from high altitude.
Q. Have you done any research work relative to rescue from high altitudes?
A. This particular problem on free fall pertained to the problem of rescue from high altitudes because it was our belief that perhaps it was most advisable for aviators when they had to ball out from their plane at altitudes particularly above 35,000 feet, to take a free fall.
Q. Well then those were studies on periods of useful consciousness when exposed without oxygen at different altitudes?
A. Well, we made studies on periods of free consciousness at various altitudes is order to find out how long one would be able to write or to think effectively and efficiently when exposed without supplemental oxygen at high altitudes. To be specific, if an aviator were exposed without a supplementary oxygen supply to an altitude of 30,000 feet where there is not enough oxygen to supply the brain for a very long period of time, how long would it be before he would lose consciousness, or how long would it be before it would be unable for him to write? Or if he were exposed to 40,000 feet without supplemental oxygen, how long would he be able to write?
Q. How did the United States Army Air Corps equip its high altitude flying personnel for escape at high altitudes?
A. They were equipped with an oxygen mask which was attached by rubber tube to a bail-out bottle of oxygen. In it was a quantity of oxygen was compressed into the bail-out bottle which was in a pocket on the pants leg. The supply of oxygen was adequate to keep the flyer adequately supplied with oxygen until he reached a level of 15,000 feet, where a supplemental oxygen supply was no longer required.
Q. Did the flying personnel also wear an electrically heated suit?