A I have already said that these curves were continued in connection with all the other curves. The curves for the second group to which this man, of course, belongs were continued to the 12th or 13th of September, and since that Schaefer group was still in the experiment when this series began on the 1st or 3rd of September, and since the charts were still hanging on the bed they also were continued. This man went up to 61 kilos, though when he was taken in it was 57.5; that is a clear indication that he suffered no injuries; if he had been injured he would not have been released with a weight higher when he entered the experiment. This man conducted both experiments poorly. He drank so much fresh water that he might just as well have thrown these records of his away. This was no experiment at all.
Q Now, I notice that this patient or subject used, whose name has been erased was 20 years age. Did you have the written consent of his parents to perform a liver puncture? Did you have the written consent of his parents to perform this on him?
A No, I did not. You do not ask anybody in the Wehrmacht; nobody is asked in the Reich labre Service or in the Wehrmacht. No 18 year old boy when inducted into the Army is asked if he wants too. If a man is a soldier and is in pressing need of an operation, the parents are not asked whether it can be carried out. If you wait until that happens the man would probably die in the meantime.
Q Was this boy in the army?
A Possibly he was one of the soldiers -- former soldiers.
MR. HARDY: This is a good break, Your Honor.
JUDGE SEBRING: I want to ask a few questions.
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q Doctor, in connection with the sea water experiments, what is the prupose of making liver punctures?
A In some of these cases it was seen that after fluid was again taken into the body the liver-became somewhat enlarged. In my opinion that resulted from the fact that some of the salt from the sea water remained in the liver, and that the enlargement of the liver, which also happens when a large amount of fluid is injected, but is very sensory, in this case because of the residium of salt in the liverlasted for somewhat longer time.
And, when Eppinger was there he saw that the liver had become enlarged, and asked himself what the cause of that might be; and he said, do take a look into this and make a few punctures so we can find out whether something of a pathological nature has remained in the liver."
Q What is the technique or procedure for making a liver puncture?
A There is a local anesthesia administered in the area of the liver and a needle is inserted into the liver so a part of the liver is sucked into the hypodermic needle and that concludes the puncture. It might he compared with and no marrow puncture.
Q Did you explain to the experimental subject that you were going to make a liver puncture?
A Yes, I did. I told him that I wanted to make a puncture; I told him he would feel no pain; I tell him nothing would happen to him. Then I have them the local anesthesia. This is an operation that can be carried out in just a few minutes. Most cf the time is used in waiting for this local anesthesia to take effect. The puncturing take less than a minute.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess for a few minutes.
(Thereupon a recess was taken).
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. HARDY:
We will now proceed to Case #14, Your Honors. Kindly mark these A-14, B-14, and C-14, Also attached to Case #14 is this microfilm of curves. Professor Beiglboeck, will you tell us what this microfilm purports to be?
A That is an electrocardiograph. It is not the one of Case 14, but apparently it only slipped in there erroneously, but it is the electrocardiogram of Case 9.
Q Thank you.
Now, in this Case #14 we note, on the 27th, or on Chart B-14, considerable rise in temperature, and then, on the 29th, an exceptional rise in temperature. Would you tell us, Dr. Beiglboeck, whether or not this was one of the patients you had considerable trouble with?
A I don't know what you mean by considerable trouble. After an intake of salt solution, it is seen quite frequently that small temperatures arise. That is called table salt fever. With children, such a temperature rise, up to 38 or 39 degrees centigrades. In this case, the temperature went up to 37.6 during the course of an injection of hypertonic salt solution. That is no dangerous event, and immediately after the intraveneous injection they had a short rise in temperature. That is something which occurs quite frequently, as I have already stated several times before. That the interruption was really undertaken intraveneously is also shown here. On the next day, the temperature was again quite normal and it remained normal.
Q Would you tell us how long this subject was subjected to 500 cc of sea water?
A That was discontinued on the 8th day.
Q Of course, if the mark indicated under the 22nd is the date of the commencement of the experiment, and not the 21st.
A Yes. I can only again and again give the same answer to the same question. If a person is brought into a condition where he loses water, whether you let him thirst or whether you give him sea water to drink, then the person must lose weight, and this experimental subject too lost 2 kilograms on the first day, then it gradually became less. Furthermore, from the 25th to the 26th, this experimental subject drank water for here, although he is fasting, he lost only 400 grams. He should have lost approximately 1,000 grams. Therefore, it is certain that he drank, and it is probable from the 27th to the 28th, where he lost 600 grams altogether, he drank some water again. Thus, it is an experiment which could not be regarded as a seven or eight day long lasting sea water experiment, because it was interrupted by intake of fresh water several times and, in my estimate, more than one liter.
Q On the 29th, which is indicated on Chart B-14, what was the pulse rate on that day?
A 60.
Q And what was the temperature rate on that day? The highest temperature rate?
A Well, there was a short rise which appeared after the intraveneous injection of liquid. I don't know whether the pulse was taken at the same time too. Probably that was higher too at that time.
Q Well, isn't it true that when the pulse reaches the rate of 60 and the temperature reaches the rate of 39, that that man is rather ill?
AAs far as I can see from the curve, the temperature was taken in between here. Probably because immediately after the injection he got the chills. As far as I can see, they took the pulse when he had a normal pulse. Probably during the time when he had this short rise in temperature they did not take the pulse. That is an occurrence which disappears quite quickly. This rise of temperature after the injection of physiological salt is not a result of my experiment. It did not happen for the first time in Dachau and had nothing to do with sea water, but it is quite a frequent reaction when liquid is injected intravenously.
Even in the case of a healthy person, this can occur. In itself this is quite an insignificant occurrence.
Q What marks indicate, under the date of the 29th, that he received injections?
A That means that by means of intraveneous injection of liquid the experiment was terminated.
Q Is that what this arrow means? The red arrow under the date of the 29th of August?
A The red arrow? The experiment was discontinued by means of a hypertonic solution.
Q Now, on the 1st of September, we note that no urinary output is recorded. Was it because this patient may have been unconscious at this time and, therefore, incompetent, he was suffering from a flaccid paralysis of the bladder?
A It does not mean anything but that this amount of urine was not recorded. Perhaps from that date on, the urine output was no longer measured. You can find that out from the black notebook, whether the measurement of the urine output was continued.
Q Kindly look at the black notebook and determine that, Dr. Beiglboeck.
A No, the last measurement in the 14th case is recorded on the 31st of August. That is, from the 1st of September on, the urine output was no longer measured. It does not mean a paralysis of the bladder nor unconsciousness, but one sees that apparently he was feeling very well because, during that time, he had, after all, gained already 2 kilograms and he continued to gain in weight, and I certainly don't know what reason anybody who had been taken out of a thirst experiment should still be unconscious five days later. It is a physiological principle that if somebody is taken out of a thirst experiment and given water, that he recovers immediately.
Q Well, this is not five days later. This is two days later.
A Four days. 1, 2, 3.
Q 1, 2, 3 days it would be then, from the 29th to the 1st. Then how do you explain the fact that you only observed this patient for a period of five days after he had been rather ill, as noted by the temperature curve of the 29th on Chart B-14?
A If someone, after physiological salt solution has been administered to him, or sugar solution, during a half-hour has a rise in temperature which disappears then immediately, this does not signify that this person was seriously ill but it is a reaction which has been observed more than one hundred times, a reaction to the intraveneous injection of liquid, and that he did not have a paralysis of the bladder after the termination is evident from the fact that on the other days when the measurements were still taken there was still a urine output, so if any person should become unconscious and have a bladder paralysis that would occur during the thirst. If it did not occur during the thirst, then it wouldn't have occurred three days later either. That doesn't exist. It is medically impossible.
Q This is Case #17, Your Honors. Would you kindly mark that A, B, and C and D?
A You are not submitting Cases 15 and 16.
Q No, there is nothing salient there.
Now, could you kindly tell us the name of that subject? I note that his name has been erased from A-17 and from B-17.
A. Its probably Oleschkewitsch.
Q. Coudl that be O-l-e-s-c-h-k-e-w-i-t-s-c-h?
A. Yes.
Q. Who erased that, Doctor?
A. I didn't.
Q. Do you know who did?
A. No.
Q. Can you tell us from the top of that page how old that subject was?
A. 17 years old.
Q. Did you have any written consent from his parents to experiment on him?
A. No.
Q. Did you customarily use 17 year old boys in medical experiments?
A. Normally not, but at that time the War had already been going on for five years.
Q. This 17 year old boy was obviously one of the cheats too; you had to interrupt the experiment because he obviously was drinking water, inasmuch as his urinary output of the 23rd, 24th, 25th and 26th wasn't substantially more than his intake?
A. In other words on the 25th he had a weight of 47.6 kilos, and on the 26th his weight was 47.3. Then he reduced from 46 to 45.7, and from that to 45.3. And those two time she certainly must have had something to drink.
Q. Then did you interrupt the experiment because he must have had something to drink or was it your purpose here to experiment on this young man for a period of 12 days with an interruption which would assimilate rain at sea?
A. Well, this was interrupted here quite regularly on the 29th. Anyhow, I never had the intention and nobody had the intention to assimilate rain at sea, because rain at sea that is something the experimental subjects produced themselves, not because it was within the scope of our experimental program, but because secretly they obtained water.
Q. Then there would have been no purpose in having conducted an experiment wherein you would have subjected a person to seawater for a period of 6 or 7 days then interrupt the experiment and give him a small quantity of water, and then again put him back on seawater for a period of 5 days in the interim, making an attempt to assimilate an actual rainfall while a person is on a raft in an open sea, wouldn't that be of interst?
A. I do not believe that a person on the high seas could have it happen to him that in five days they could obtain about 10 liters of water, or even more by means of rain; in the interim more than 8 quarts, probably 10 quarts of water were taken in.
Q. When you discovered this boy was cheating had you stopped the experiment and offered this 17 years old boy cigarettes to volunteer for further experiments, is that it?
A. I did not offer him cigarettes. I have to repeat that again and again. Those who did not carry out the experiment correctly and whom we found out, in accordance with the agreement, which I had made before I took the cigarette premium away from them, and then they said, "We want to have cigarettes after all, and in the second group we shall try the experiment again." I could assume the responsibility for that absolutely. If a person during the first experiment lost only small amounts of water for instance the loss of water in the case No. 17, it was only about 7 per cent of his water balance that is a loss of water which is absolutely not dangerous.
During the second experimental period he probably lost even loss.
Q. We turn to case 18, if your Honors will kindly mark that in the order of sequence. Can you decipher the name on the chart D-18 which has been erased? Could that possibly be the name Jacob Bamberger?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Bamberger a jewish subject?
A. No.
Q. You are sure of that?
A. Yes, I am quite certain I had only gypsies.
Q. Bamberger is a Jewish name, isn't it?
A. I wouldn't say so. On the contrary Bamberger is a very wide spread name.
Q. Tell us how long this person was subjected to 500 cc of seawater?
A. This subject was practically very-
Q. Tell us from the charts before you and not your pencilled notes, that is charts B-18, C-18 and D-18, how long was this subject to 500 ccs sea water, you can observe that quite clearly from the charts?
A. On the 10th day the experiment was discontinued and this case shows especially well now such an experiment was carried on; I can show you from the 24th to the 25th that is already on the third day of the experiment he loses 100 gram. It is quite certain that he drank at least onehalf a liter or half a quarter of water. On the 25th to 26th he does not lose any weight at all, even though suffering from hunger, starving.
It is quite certain he drank at least one quart water, then he loses a kilo. Then he loses 600 gram, and then starts to drink again. Here from the 29th to the 30th he does not lose any weight, thus he obviously again drank from three-quarters to one quart of water. Thus this is a case that during this extended period lost 7 kilos. That this loss of weight during that time was reached is not shown by the first page at all. From that it can be seen without doubt this was not a loss due to lack of water but a loss due to hunger. So that is a case which cannot be considered a seawater experiment at all. The loss of water is ---
Q. This person after having been subjected to 10 days drinking seawater was interrupted for four days and put back on seawater again; so in total he drank seawater 141/2 days?
A. Yes, of course one can continue an experiment with seawater for 13 years if in between fresh water is administered again and again, The essential in a seawater experiment is how much water is lost by the body. If the water is replaced again then the body is in the same condition as before. One cannot say the man drank sea water from time to time, if he had done so without interruption this would have been a dangerous experiment. If during the 9 days he was in this experiment this subject had not during 5 days drank a half liter to a liter of water than the experiment would have been a long one.
Q. Lots turn to Case 21. Now, this patient or subject received 500 cc. seawater for a period of 6 days, 6-1/2 days, is that correct?
A. No, he received, two, three, four days, -- during 5 days on the 5th day during the night it was discontinued at 2300 o'clock.
I can remember this case quite well. It was a case which had a tetanus attack, during the night at 2300 had a tetanus attack and I was called and caused an interruption. At that time he was given intravenously, or apparently drank 200 grams of mineral water, I guess intravenously, then calcium and then sterofandnm, and then this on the top I can't read it, the mark especially, it was sugar solution.
Q. Now, Doctor, the marks here stop absolutely in a rather erratic manner, and how urine output is shown for the last two or three days, just what happened to this patient?
A: The people recovered completely afterward and as you can see he also was discharged with the weight of 57 kilograms after he arrived with the weight of 55 kilograms, that is he gained 2½ kilograms and I discharged him weighing 2½ kilograms more than when I received him.
Q: What do you rely on to indicate that he was discharged weighing 57/5 kilograms; this mark made in ink at a later date?
A: Here, as in all cases, the final weight is recorded. You can see in all curves it is in the same handwriting, always the hand writing of the French medical student.
Q: Well, now, from the 30th on Chart C-21 to the 31st, we see that this man gained from 50.3 kilograms to 52.9 kilograms, which is approximately four pounds in weight in one day and he continued to gain in the next four days up to 55.9 which indicates he gained in a period of four days nearly ten pounds; didn't you in fact water-log this patient?
A: Naturally the gain of weight takes place very quickly. This is not a specialty in Case No. 21. It is quite obvious the water he has lost in the experiments was was replaced in a very short time. I can read to you from case to case how quickly they gained weight, some lost weight within two or three days and then gained three or four kilograms and the entire amount of water is replaced quickly.
Q. Isn't it unusual to gain four or six kilograms in a period of four days?
A: It is unusual for a normal person, but it is not unusual if someone who had been thirsting now is drinking water. If you now drink two quarts of water and you weigh yourself later, then you would weigh two kilograms more.
Q: Is that pencil note on the back of B-21 in your handwriting?
A: No, it is the hand writing of one of my medical orderlies.
Q: Will you read that?
A: Yes. Subject still somewhat weak; occasionally he has pains in the area of the heart; general condition good; color of skin normal; the muscles not especially irritable; vessels normal without any clinical resuils; heart T, that is heart tone pure, loud and dampening of the heart, not enlarged.
Q: You will note on the back of the page on the sheet A-21 "legible?"
A: Yes.
Q: Is that the same.
A: That is a carbon copy, yes.
Q: Do you allege here that this patient here was perfectly normal at the end of the experiments?
A: Yes, I maintain that.
Q: This is No. 22, Your Honor.
Can you tell us what happened to this patient, he was subjected to sea-water for a period of seven and one half days; was he not?
A: Six and one half, perhaps.
Q: Including three days of hunger?
A: Yes.
Q: Your Honors, I note that this subject on the 22nd - shown on Chart B-22 - was subjected to sea-water, and then on the 25th that is three days after he was drinking sea-water, is also subjected to hunger, so then he had a period of hunger for three days as well as the sea-water?
A: Everyone of these experimental subjects were subjected to the same experimental program. During the first days they got sea-distress diet and then nothing more. That was not a specialty of Case No. 23, but that was the plan of the program and thirsty people are not hungry.
Q: Now on the 22nd the experiments began; but I notice when you evaluated these charts you were rather careless. It indicates here by your little arrow with a circle thereon that the experiments did not begin until the 23rd; now when did the experiments begin on the 21st as alleged by the chart itself or on the 22nd as you would justifiable say by the weights or on the 23rd as you have indicated by the arrow you yourself placed on the charts one year after the experiments began?
A: All of the experiments began on the 22nd, with the exception of this one case, that was No. 7 and that began two days later.
Q: Now this patient I notice also has sort of an irregular temperature and pulse curve and he gained a considerable amount of weight in a period of four or five days; is it possible that that patient became water-logged?
A: This patient at the beginning of the experiments weight 56.6 or 57 kilograms. During the experimental period he lost water and he drank as much as he needed, therefore he replaced the amount of water lost and again obtained the same weight he had before. The restoration of the normal condition, if you call that water-logged, then I admit that he was water logged and was filled up with water.
Q: Now on the last chart, that is C-22, we have a pencil notation on the back thereof; is that in your handwriting?
A: No that is also the handwriting of my medical non-com. It says: Good, general condition; vessels, alright; heart alright; liver not enlarged; dampening of the liver as at the beginning of the experiment.
Q: Is that word translated or interpreted "dampening" or "Dullness?"
A: It means the sound you hear, when tapping on the liver. I don't remember the English technical expression.
Q: Would you kindly read that in German again and I will ask the interpreter whether or not the last sentence could be translated and the last phrase could be translated as "dullness". At the beginning is the word "dullness" or "dampness"; would you read the German Doctor, it is a question to the interpreter?
A: The German word is Daempfung", it is a certain medical expression. If when the chest is struck and if it makes a sound or if in some places you get a light sound, or in some places a so-called dampening sound as though a damper had been put on it, therefore it says here that the noise is the same as it was at the beginning.
Q: Well, what does it mean?
A: It could be interpreted "dull".
Q: Professor Bieglboeck, what does it mean "at the beginning"; the beginning of what does this dullness or dampness appear?
A: Well, I suppose that in this case too there was a slight enlargement of the liver temporarily and at the final examination, which was apparently recorded on September 12th, I dictated that the sound of the liver was again the same as at the beginning. The man would have been ill only if he at the end did not have that sound of the liver, that would have been an abnormal condition The dull sound of the liver, is a normal condition.
Q: Then this applies to the liver and not to the lungs; you don't mean therefore at the beginning this applied to the lungs but not to the liver?
A: From this, apparently.
Q: Was he a fit subject to be subjected to sea-water experiments?
A: Yes, certainly, otherwise I would not have included him from the very beginning. I examined all my experimental subjects at the beginning quite throughly.
Q: Case 23, Your Honor. How this man was given 500 cc of Berka water for the duration of ten straight days; wasn't he?
A. On the 10th day is interruption, yes. I want to point out here, too, that from the third day to the fourth day there was a loss of weight of only four hundred grams, to the next day also only five hundred grams. That there exists the probability or even the certainty that he drank here. The loss of weight from the next to the last day is also very slight.
Q. This man's temperature and pulse rate showed a decided drop throughout the eight to ten days of the experiment in a somewhat alarming manner. Then on August 30th you interrupted the experiment and have placed here the initials "C.H.". That is on the entry of August 30, the seventeenth day on Chart C23.
A. This is supposed to be "P.H." also. It is always the same. It is not written well.
Q. What was that?
A. That means that some intravenous injection of the hypotonic solution in the experiment was discontinued.
Q. How much did this man weigh on the 30th day of August as indicated on C23, Chart C23? He weighed 53.8 kilograms, did he not?
A. It is written very badly but you can see here it has been transferred. It is supposed to read "59.8."
Q. When was this pencil notation "59.8." put in there?
A. If you will look over the charts this pencilled note is in every one, because this is apparently connected with the fact that the fever chart had not been recorded yet and that on the 29th the weight is still recorded in pencil and was then transferred in ink. That can be seen from curve. In other words, it was written in Dachau.
Q. Then you don't believe that it was 53.8 and that he gained eighteen pounds in one day?
A. That would really be a miracle.
Q. Could it be possible if you waterlogged a person and gave them considerable amounts of fluids that they would gain eighteen pounds in one day?
A. If somebody is given liquid he eliminates as much as he has in excess of what he needs. One would have to cut out the kidneys in advance so that the entire amount of water that a person is given should be retained in the body. You have the excuse me, but I really have to tell you only a bloody lay-person can ask such a question.
Q. Is it possible that this is the man who died of that Tschofenik refers to in his affidavit? This man completed his experiment on the third day of September.
A. As regards the dead persons of Tschofenik, only he knows something about them, and in my experiment not a single one died.
Q. Would you know? You left there on the 15th of September.
A. Yes, certainly, I cannot know, of course, who died on the 20th of September, but one thing I can know as a certainty is that in my experiments and their consequences nobody died of my experiments and their consequences. That I know with absolute certainty.
Q. Do you have any ability to write shorthand, doctor?
A. Yes, I know shorthand.
Q. Are those your stenographic notes on tho back of C23?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you kindly read those to the Tribunal, transcribe them? Would that be too difficult or would you like to have me give you my transcription of them to aid you?
A. It says: "The thirst acquires forms that are difficult to bear. The patient is apathetic."
Q. Pardon me, doctor. It might be helpful if you used this transcription. I have had experts transcribe the notes, and the interpreters can follow us more readily and I have the English copies also for the Tribunal to follow you, and if you have any discrepancy to point out with the transcription as set out in the English -
JUDGE SEBRING: Are you offering this, Mr. Hardy?
MR. HARDY: That is a problem, your Honor. I want to have him transcribe the notes and when the Tribunal settles who will offer this document into evidence, either the defense or prosecution, at that time, if necessary, I will give this a document number.
I think we will have to wait to clarify that point later.
Q. Would you check that transcription, Professor?
A. That is correct, except in the first line it says -
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. You have read your own stenographic notes, have you not?
A. Yes, and I have compared them with this transcription.
Q. What you should now read is your own version of these shorthand notes as you say they are correctly read. You understand that? You can read them from this. You can read them from that, as you corrected it. You can read them from shorthand direct or from the typewritten transcription, as you please. Read slowly, too, please.
MR. HARDY: While he is reading that, your Honor, I suggest that he stop at the corrections he wishes to make and we can correct our English copy as well as the interpreters can correct the German copy.
THE PRESIDENT: He will call their attention to the corrections which you make.
A. "The thirst assumes forms difficult to endure". It reads in the second version is "already unendurable". It does not read that way.
"The thirst assumes forms difficult to endure. The patient lies there quite motionless with half-closed eyes. The patient lies apathetically. He takes little notice of his surroundings. He asks for water only when he awakes from his somnolent condition.
"The appearance is very bad and doomed. The general condition gives no cause for alarm.
"Respiration somewhat flatter, moderately frequent.
"Respirations 25 per minute.
"The eyes are deeply haloes," it is supposed to read. Here it says "open" "The turgor of the skin greatly reduced."
"Skin dry, tongue completely dry, whitish coating in the middle fairly free.
"The mucous membranes of the mouth and the lips dry, latter covered with crusts. Lungs show slight very dry bronchitis, lower border VI-XI." It is supposed to read "XI". Originally it said "XII" and apparently I corrected it to read "XI".
"Sharpened vesicular breathing". That is omitted here, of course, "breathing".
"Sharpened vesicular breathing" -- that is a medical expression.
"Heart beats very low, poorly audible. Palpability of the pulse felt. Palpability of the pulse worse." Here is says that the pulse is "felt" and it should be "filled". It is not so well filled -- not palpability but the pulse is less well filled, less full.
Then this which is described here as undecipherable reads: "The cell walls are somewhat thickened." Here I probably said "more strongly thickened".
"Liver 2½-3 fingers below sternal margin, rather soft, moderately sensitive to pressure."
"Spleen soft" is wrong. It says: "Spleen reutoric, enlarged in a ring form, slightly enlarged."
"Musculature hypotonic. Joints can be extended more than usual. Calves slightly sensitive to pressure." Then what is described as illegible here reads: "Indicated welt formation - vertical, strong welt formation horizontally."
That refers to the reaction of the muscle, to the knocking, the so-called ideo-muscular welt.
Q. Would you kindly start that paragraph again and read it as it is written?
A. It reads here: "Musculature hypotonic. Joints can be extended excessively, calves slightly sensitive to pressure; indication of horizontal welt formations. Strong vertical welt formations." Up to this point this is how it reads in the text, and in order to explain it I added that we were concerned with the so-called ideo-muscular welt.
Further the text continues: "Reflexes" with two little crosses, that is, they react strongly. "Abdominal reflexes", aldo two little crosses. "Romberg" as it says here. "Babinski negative".
"Left" -- here it says "Leif" "phenomenon". Here on the left, "phenomenon of Becher". "Oppenheim negative". Rosselimo negative." "Bulbous reflex bad". "Tenus of the bulb of the eye bad". "Bulbous reflex" with a little cross -- that is positive. Interruption.
Q. Now, Professor Beiglboeck, looking over these stenographic notes in the sentence in the first paragraph, which will be the third sentence, which states: "He takes little notice of his surroundings", has an erasure been made in the stenographic notes in that sentence?
A. No; I can't see any.
Q. In place of the word "little" which appears in the present text on the back of C-23, was there originally a symbol, stenographic symbol for the word "no" and then the word "no" was erased and replaced by the word "little"?
A. I see here that actually something else had been written there; probably at that time I wrote over it. I don't see anything erased.