A. I can not toll you anything about this, because it was kept so secret; and because I was in there quite individually, and I was quite single during this experiment.
Q. Do you know whether anyone died as a result of this experiment?
A. I can not give you any information about that, either. I have not seen anybody. But it was said in camp that quite a number of people died there during this experiment.
Q. Now, father, do you know anything about the low pressure experiments that were carried out in Dachau?
A. Only that I heard that such experiments were conducted out there with an hermetically sealed apparatus.
Q. You have no personal knowledge about these things?
A. Do. Nobody was admitted there. It was also kept very secret.
Q. Now, what about the dry freezing experiments, father?
A. Also, these experiments, however, during this time, occurred out there. And it was also said that people were left lying there in the frost and to freeze; but as I have already said, I have not seen it, but I hoard of it. But all that is alleged to have been done in the same Aviation Experimental station.
Q. Do you knew anything about the so-called "Phlegmone" experiments? At Dachau?
A. Yes, the Pflegmone experiments, were carried out there, because I know of comrades who were there. There were approximately sixty people, half of whom died. There was also a certain other number of cases that died as a. result of this experiment.
Q. Father did you receive any preferential treatment in the Camp because you had undergone the Malaria and Freezing experiments?
A. On one occasion when I was in the hospital, Dr. Prachtel told mo because you have behaved so bravely in the water, you can come at all times to the hospital for recuperation. That was a short time before Christmas. But when I left there, I thought it would be shameful cf me to try to get some favors as a result of this. I never made any use of the suggestion, by the physician.
Q. Well, they didn't shorten your stay at Dachau, or anything of that nature, did they, because you underwent these experiments?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have not understood the question; I do not know what you mean by it.
Q. They did not shorten your sentence in Dachau, did they, because you underwent these experiments?
A. I really do not quite understand this question. No. No. I said not until the end; not until the Americans came to liberate us.
Q. Now, father, will you toll the Tribunal whether or not you were allowed to observe your religion while you were in Dachau Concentration Camp?
A. Well, this matter was treated differently; a chapel had been established at Dachau. And, as priests, we were even given preferential treatment. That is, for a while, we were given one quarter of a glass of liquor, and, from time to time, also some beer. And then, also, our food was supposed to be better. But, actually, we were generally pleased that special privileges were withdrawn; because we always had to drink the wine, one, two, three; this had to be done very quickly; but once or twice the chips began to fly in the air; and I also remember that we also at one time had some quarreling in the street by the inmates which had been separated from the rest. But in the carp everybody know that ore were given preferential treatment; but it was given to us in such a manner, that it was not known to anybody. As to these visits, on one or two occasions, we were given an extra piece of moat. Later on, only a. sign remained on the Courtyard circles that it was for the priests. But, in any case, we could not see any difference in the food. A. Chapel also was established, and, first of all, one priest was able to held the Holy Mass there. All these privileges lasted for approximately one half gear. Then we had to go to sleep daily, in the morning and in the afternoon. This, was, again, some sort of chicanery, because after we slept we had to construct some beds. And the construction of the beds in the Camp was really something terrible. The beds were torn down, frequently and we had to make them like little natch boxes, so that ultimately some people refused to go to sleep, and some fire boxes were also given to us during this time. Later on all of us were cabled, and the camp loader and two other officers arrived. And a typewriter was brought. And all of us had to fall in, in the barracks street, and the following questions were asked:
"Who of you is a citizen of the Reich?" Of course, there were several German answerers, and they stopped out. The second question asked was: "Who or you belongs to a German Echelon group. I cant remember that anybody stopped out. Then there was still another question. "Who of you considers himself a German and confesses himself to the German Iddaology?" Nobody stopped out. Afterwards, the oldest of the Camp came to the Camp leader and said, "You could still ask them who of them speaks German." Then the Camp loader said, "Of course, if you know already what they are doing, all right;" and he said, "From now, on, you are losing all of your privileges. And you are to become a general labor block;" and then we had to march away.
Generally we were grateful that we did not have the special privileges anymore. We only regretted that we were not admitted to the chappel and that our prayer books had been taken away from us. However, we had a feeling of honor that as Polish priests we had not broken down.
Later on, through comradeship with the other prisoners, the German priests were admitted to the chappel, and later, on several occasions, we wore also able to exercise our religious duties, but we had to do this secretly. However, we wore given very bad treatment in the camp as priests.
MR. MCHANEY: I have no further questions, Your Honors.
THE PRESIDENT: Have Defendants' Counsel any cress examination of this witness?
There being none offered, the witness may stand down.
(The witness was excused.)
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, at this time we wish to continue with the presentation of the sulfanilamide bone transplantation experiments.
THE PRESIDENT: Before proceeding with the further introduction of the exhibits, the Court has an announcement to make. I will ask Judge Sebring to read it.
JUDGE SEBRING: It will no doubt be recalled by the Prosecution and Defense Counsel that several days ago Dr. Servatius made some inquiry of the Court concerning what the Court would consider to be a proper form to be used in the preparation of affidavits. As I understood at that time the purpose of the inquiry, it was that Defense Counsel wanted to meet such requirements as the Tribunal would insist upon and had hoped that the Tribunal would give them information prior to the holidays so that during the holidays they could make some progress in the preparation of the affidavits.
The Tribunal has given due consideration to the type of form that it thinks will meet its approval and has prepared an information sheet which the Presiding Judge has requested that I, on behalf of the Tribunal, have read into the record.
"Information to Defense Counsel Concerning Forms to be Used in the Preparation of Affidavits:
"Such affidavits a.s may be presented by Defense Counsel for reception in evidence by Military Tribunal I shall be in substantially the following form:
"I. In case the witness whose affidavit is taken resides in the country or in a small village, the affidavit may be executed in the presence of the Laenderrat, who shall certify to the same.
"2. In case the witness whoso affidavit is taken resides in a small town, the affidavit may be executed in the presence of the Mayor, who shall certify to the same.
"3. In case the witness whose affidavit is taken resides in a larger city, either one of three alternatives will be acceptable; namely, (a) the affidavit may be executed in the presence of the First Mayor, who shall certify to the same; (b) the affidavit may be executed in the presence of the Deputy Mayor, who shall certify to the same; (c) the affidavit may be executed in the presence of the presiding judge of the civil court, who shall certify to the same.
"In all events, any such affidavit must also be certified by the competent representative of the United States Government in the place where the affiant is resident.
"The first paragraph of any such affidavit shall be as follows:
"'I'--stating the name of the affiant--'state herewith under oath the following facts known to me by personal knowledge:'
"Following this preliminary paragraph, the facts known to the affiant shall be stated clearly. The affidavit shall be concluded as follows:
"'Having carefully read and personally countersigned each of the preceding ______pages, numbered 1 to_____, inclusive, and having personally made the necessary corrections and countersigned them with my initials, I herewith declare under oath that all the facts submitted by me in this affidavit correspond, to the best of my knowledge and belief, to the full truth. /signed/--', and then appears the signature of the affiant.
"The certificate to be signed by the German authority shall be substantially as follows:
"'I do hereby certify that I am--', stating the title of his office, 'having been duly appointed to this office by the properly constituted authority, to wit,--' and then follows a statement of the authority by which or through whom the officer was appointed.
Then will follow 'on', and then will appear the date of the appointment. 'I further certify that the foregoing affidavit was sworn to and signed before me this_____day,' the date being stated, 'at', and then will appear the name of the city, county or village, and the certificate will then be signed by the German official.
"The declaration of the representative of the Military Government shall be in substantially the following form:
"'Sworn to and signed before me on____date in', and then will be stated the place. Signed, and then will appear the name of the representative, his official title and rank.
"The translator's certificate, if tho affidavit is taken in a language other than English, shall be in the following form:
"'I', st tin., the name, in United States civilian', and then his number, 'hereby certify that I am thoroughly conversant with the English and German languages and that the above is a true and correct translation,' and then the signature.
"To the end that there may be no greater confusion than is necessary about the statement of the Tribunal, it is the order of the Tribunal to the Office of the Secretary General that sufficient copies of the statement now made by the Tribunal shall be prepared both in English and in German so that each Defense Counsel will have at least two copies of tho statement, in English and in German, and more copies if he so desires."
"At the present time, the Tribunal has two copies of this statement now to hand down to the Secretary General to appear in the minutes of the Court, a copy thereof in English and in German as information to the Prosecution, and a copy of the statement in English and in German as information to Defense Counsel at the present time, and I would suggest, Mr. Secretary General, that inasmuch as Dr. Servatius initially made the application, it be delivered to him.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess for 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal in again in session.
MR. HARDY: The prosecution will now proceed with the presentation of the evidence of sulfanilimide bone transplantation experiments. Page 22 in your Honors' Document book Document Number NO-858, I now offer as Prosecution Exhibit Number 223. This is a Deposition of Dr. Rolf Rosenthal. The Tribunal will recall that the witnesses of the last few days who have experimented in Ravensbruck frequently mentioned the name of this Dr. Rosenthal. This contains the jurat of major Arthur K. Kant, British Army of the Rhine Investigating Officer.
The second paragraph I will road: "I have been warned that this statement may be used in front of a court. I make this statement voluntarily without the use of force or violence or the threat of violence or the promise of a reward or a reward.
"1. I heard for the first time that experimental operations were made a.t Ravensbruck Concentration Camp in summer, 1942. Dr. Schiedlausky said that ho had had a conference with Prof. Gebhardt. During this conference the possibilities of such operations were discussed. In my opinion, however, it had already been ordered before be a higher authority in Berlin to carry out these operations.
"2. The first experimental operations were carried out in summer, 1942, at Ravensbruck. I was present at any of these operations. The operations were carried out by Dr. Fischer.
Prof. Gebhardt was present an sometimes had details of these operations produced. The first time eight to twelve of these operations were carried out on female prisoners. My duty was to assist during these operations. I gave the instruments to Dr. Fischer. I or Dr. Oberheuser and sometimes one of the nurses administered the narcosis.
"3. After these operations the patients wore accommodated in separate rooms in other departments, of the infirmary. Sulphonamid-preparates were administered to them; and as far as I know these patients were nursed exactly in the same way as ordinary patients. Gas gangrene cultures were instilled into the artificially caused wounds. These cultures were delivered by the Hygieneinstitut of the Waffen-SS in Berlin where they had been cultivated."
At this time I wish to add parenthetically, tho Tribunal will recall that in the introduction or the presentation of evidence as to the organizational situation of the defendants, we noted that the Hygieneinstitut up until must, 1943, was under the control of Genzken, Bennett Genzken, and the defendant Mrugowsky. After the first of December, tho defendant Mrugowsky assumed absolute control.
"These cultures were implanted into the wounds with or without foreign matter. I believe that the foreign matter, which was either cloth or splinters of wood or perhaps even glass, was also delivered by the Hygieneinstitut of the Waffen-SS at Berlin.
"4. Sometimes I have seen that Dr. Oberheuser administered petrolinjections to the prisoners. She used a syringe for ten cubic centimeters and tho injection was administered into the vein of the arm. The injection gave the impression of an acute apoplexy, the patients reared up and then suddenly collapsed. It lasted between throe to five minutes from the time the injection was administered until they were dead. The patients were entirely conscious until the last moment. It took approximately fifteen to thirty seconds to administer the injection. Dr. Oberheuser told me that the prisoners who received petrol injections were severely ill and could not be cured.
"5. I have administered an overdose of morphine to about twenty to thirty severely ill patients to case their death."
At the present time, your Honor, Dr. Rosentahl will not be available here as a witness because he is now on trial at Ravensbruck by the British Army, the British Military Courts.
We will now turn to the next affidavit. This is an affidavit numbered Document NO-508, which will be offered as Prosecution Exhibit number 224. In the course of reading this affidavit, hour Honor, there will be sections I will omit inasmuch as they contain details of tho examinations and some of the things that might be of interest for you to road but which I will not take the time to read here. Dr. Schiedlausky first was stationed at Ravensbruck and later Trent to Buchenwald so in his affidavit you will see an overlap of evidence as to the conditions of Ravensbruck and those of Buchenwald.
This is dated "Freising, 7 august, 1945. I, Gerhardt Schiedlausky" -also, by the way, he is to be placed on trial by the British in the British Zone -- "MD, Hauptsturmfuehrer of the Reserve of the Waffen-SS, declare the following:
"I was draftee, on the 28 th October 1939. From the 21 st of March to the end of September, 1941, I worked as a doctor in the concentration camp authuasen as Trup enarzt and also in the prisoners' wards." That obviously means Gruppnarzt, Group Doctor. "From that time I remember that so-called Smith fractures, fractures in the lower third of the lower arm, and jaw fractures occurred which could be traced back to the roughness of the prisoners, especially to many of the Capes who were notorious for their brutality. Since there was a large number of professional criminals, it was unavoidable that some cases of unnatural death should occur. The prisoners among themselves exercised a hard and brutal system of justice. Through the most dire threats, thieves, especially those the stole bread, were driven to suicide, which mostly took the form of hanging. I estimate that in about two eases they deliberately ran into the electric wire fence. There were also a series of won who were shot in flight. At one time attempted escapes, especially when a transport of Dutch Jews arrived, increased so much that the danger existed that a future increase in these suicidal flights would stir up the camp. Consequently, the camp headquarters armed husky prisoners with clubs and placed then near the line of guards and successfully within a short time stopped these attempts that had previously reached a toll of up to twelve death daily. In Mauthausen I also witnessed punishment by beatings which were at that time administered by the block leaders after the required formalities had been met. These amounted to up to twenty-five lashes. From the nearby camp, Gusen, I further remember that several cases of broken jaws occurred. During my time in Mauthausen I remember the following SS members who worked in the Medical Detachment:"
These names I will omit reading at this time and proceed on to Page 24 of your Honors' document book, the second paragraph.
"At the beginning of December, 1941, I received orders to proceed to Ravensbruck to relieve Hautpsturmfuehrer Dr. Sonntag as station physician.
There were three camps: 1. The women's camp, which had about six thousand prisoners in the beginning and which in August, 1943, had eighteen thousand. I did not observe any cruelties on the part of the SS personnel or female guards although occasional deg bites, almost always of a mild nature, occurred due to the negligence of the woman guards or the unpredictability of the dogs. Cases of unnatural death wore very rare. Once it was a Russian woman tried to escape over the electric fence and died in the attempt; and there were several cages cf suicide by hanging, perhaps two or three. In 1942 and 1943 orders came from the Reichsfuehrer SS that in the women's camp Ravensbruck suitable volunteers were to be picked in order to establish brothels in some of the men's cramps. In my capacity as camp doctor I had to take part in choosing suitable girls from among the applicants. They had to be healthy, of age, and previously engaged in prostitution. Those who volunteered were mostly German prostitutes, also some Poles and one German gypsy half-brood. During my time approximately the following camps were supplied with prostitutes: Mauthausen or Gusen with sixteen, Buchenwald with fourteen, Flossenburg with about ten. Dachau also received some; but in my estimation not more than two or four.
"The punishment inflicted upon women in Ravensbruck was different in that the Reichsfuehrer SS had reserved for himself alone the decision to have these German women flogged, at least those who as wives or widows of soldiers had given themselves to foreigners. In this case there were flogging up to three times twenty-five blows under most severe conditions, that is, w** a naked behind.
In the beginning, this was done by women guards, but later exclusively by female prisoners, depending on the number. The punishment took place once or twice a week and five to eight women were punished.
"On the order of the Reichsfuehrer SS, Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Gebhardt of Hohenlychen carried out a series of experiments in 1942 and 1943. The problem to be solved was the therapeutic effect of a number of medicines and possibly also surgery upon gangrene. Polish women who had been sentenced to death by court martial and who were awaiting execution, after their sentences had been approved by the Governor General, were chosen as subjects. The experiment proceeded as follows: A six to eight centimeter long incision was made in the lower calf. A certain bacteria culture, which was sent especially for this purpose by the Hygiene Institute of the SS, was placed deep in the calf muscle and then the skin was rejoined.
I again call the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that these cultures were sent by the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS under the control of the defendants Genzken and Mrugowsky.
"As camp doctor, mgr only responsibility was to see that clinical matters such as the operation itself, nutrition and special nursing, etc., were taken care of to the satisfaction of Professor Gebhardt. The operation itself was performed by Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Stampfegger and Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Fischer. The camp doctor, Miss Oberhauser, assisted them. I estimate that about thirty to forty women were used for this experiment with about ten to twelve dying. Oberarzt Dr. Heissmeir, head cf the tuberculosis sanatorium Hohenlychen intended to conduct another series of experiments with prisoners, but these were not approved by the higher authorities. Here the main interest was tuberculosis research, to check the reaction of the patient to increasing burden of physical exertion.
"2. The male camp Ravensbrueck: This was purely a work camp for the development of industry. Because of the peculiar working conditions the rate of illness was always rather high. As station doctor I had to supervise the prisoners' hospital.
"3. The young protection camp Uckermark: The female inmates were almost entirely German girls, on whom the efforts of ordinary reformatory education had failed, who continued social activities, loafed around, and would not lot themselves to influenced by their parents and would not obey them.
Among them were girls who, because, of inherited biological traits, were considered inferior, partly because they were epileptics or the offspring of drunkards, mental cases or sexual maniacs. Only few of the prisoners were girls who had committed some sort of crime that would ordinarily land them in Ravensbrueck, but who were sent there because of their youth. Those were mostly eases of forbidden contact with foreigners, almost always sexual intercourse.
"As far as hygienic conditions went in all three camps, in the beginning there was sufficient space in the women's camp, but duo to the mounting number of prisoners there were not sufficient beds to go around, so that people working on day and night shifts had to alternate in a bed. Consequently scabies and also some lice wore observed."
I will now omit the next two or three paragraphs and will turn to the last paragraph on page 26:
"In August 1943 I was relieved of my post by Hauptstandartenfuehrer Dr. Enno Lolling, Chief of Amt D III. The reason was that some disciplinary action was taken against Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Rosenthal. He had had a love affair with a German prisoner nurse and performed an abortion on her. As his medical superior, I was accused of knowing of this affair, so I felt myself forced to ask to be relieved of my duties, especially since relations with the camp commander at the tree, Sturmbannfuehrer Fritz Suhren, were not of the best I was sent to Natzweiler, to relieve Obersturmfuehrer Dr. von Bodmann there.
"I spent from about the middle of August to the middle of October 1943 in Natzweiler, then got orders from the head of Amt D III to take over the duties of Dr. Waldemar Hoven, who was under investigation, as station doctor of the Waffen-SS, Weimar, and first camp doctor of Buchenwald. After I turned my own duties over to Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Richard Krieger, my successor, I took over my new office.
"My activities in Buchenwald started on around the 15th to the 18th of October 1943, and ended 11 April 1945, the day the Americans entered. When I took over, there were sufficient facilities in the prisoners' hospital to handle the volume of work.
I gave the prisoners' self-administration and especially the Capo, Ernst Busse, a free hand. He picked out ward nurses, released these not suitable, and occasionally meted out some sort of punishment. The assistant to Busse was Otto Kipp, vice Capo. There wore plenty of doctors around. Some of the departments were headed by prisoners with long years of experience. In the hospital there were altogether five barracks for the sick; a sixth was aided later. The dispensary of the little camp had two barracks.
"At the time I started to work, no experiments were conducted at Buchenwal Later there were several series ordered, as follows:
"1. "Experiment of Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Vaernet." As we will sec later in this affidavit, Your Honors, and later on during the presentation of the case in chief, Dr. Vaernet was ordered by the defendant Poppendick to experiment with homosexuals at the Buchenwald concentration camp, and as a result of these orders two inmates died.
"2. Experiments of Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Schmick.
"3. Nutrition experiments with Saemigmark.
"4. Investigations of Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Ellenbeck.
"In reference to 1: The experiments of Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Vaernet, a Danish hormone export, took place about the middle of 1944 on order of the Reichsfuehrer SS, who had directed the Reich Physician of the SS, Dr. Grawitz to have the experiments carried out in Buchenwald. The aim of the experiment was to change homosexuals so they would again react normally. My part in the experiments, which was detailed for me in written instructions from my superior, Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Lolling, was only to see to it that the necessary number of homosexuals were in the camp. In a preliminary examination, Dr. Vaernet picked out suitable subjects, then informed us by wire from Prague on about what day he would perform operations on the four subjects. He also desired to operate on six more prisoners, at a later date, one of whom was to be a eunuch and another an aged man who was no longer capable of sexual feelings. In the operation itself, a two to three centimeter long incision was made in the abdomen under local anesthesia.
Then the artificial hormone, which he had developed himself and which was in the form of a normal pill, was inserted into the subcutaneous fatty tissues and the wound closed.
"In reference to 2: The experiments of Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Schmick were concerned with the healing of boils and small carbuncles. Buchenwald was given the assignment to furnish sick men as subjects to test this method. The results were positive; many boils could be healed much quicker this way.
"In reference to 3: In the nutrition experiments with Saemigmark, an additional fungus supposedly containing 50 percent albumen was administered. It was a by-product of the process of watching unfinished cellulose to remove excess sulfites with lye solutions with which nothing can be done. It was gained by a complicated procedure.
"In reference to 4: The interests of Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Hans Dieter Ellenbeck lay in about the same direction as those of the nutrition experiments. His job was, in the case of frequently occurring diseases or complaints about the conditions of the prisoners, to investigate and find the cause. He was appointed by the chief hygienist, SS Oberfuehrer Professor Dr. Mrugowsky, to visit the various sites where building and armaments construction jobs wore to be carried out. Many times these places were far underground, hard mining work had to be done, the distance to the place of work was too far and difficult shoes were impractical and unserviceable, clothes not sufficient, so unnecessary colds occurred. Also, the question of inspection, the distribution and receiving of food, recreation and time off and shelter came up. All these things may be contributing factors towards the recurrence of a disease of a similar condition on a work detail, Experiments with nutrition in regard to this problem ware to be started in Buchenwald, but then called off in March 1945 due to the progress of the war.
"Further experiments with human beings were carried on in block 46, which was affiliated with the Hygiene institute of the Waffen-SS, Department for Typhus and Virus Research. Its head was Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Erwin Ding, later Schuler, who did not work under me."
I might explain to the Tribunal at this time that in the further presen tation of this case in chief we will be dealing a great deal with the name "Dr. Ding, later Schuler."
He carried the name Ding until 1943, and at that time he changed his name to Schuler. H is stepfather's name was Ding, so he bore the name Ding the greater part of his life; and then, in 1943, ho bore the name of his own father, Schuler. So from time to time you will see reference to Ding and to Schuler, and it is one and the same person.
"I therefore never mixed myself up in the affairs of the Institute. Later SS Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Schuler requested me to represent him during his frequent absences from Buchenwald if a signature was urgently needed. Of the activities of the Institute, I only know what after vaccination with the various vaccines to be tested, the prisoners were infected with typhus. Then if a prisoner died, his case history was not sent in to the hospital, but collected for scientific purposes. Only a short notation was made on his card that the man had died in Blick 46. On order of the Reich Physician SS, the cause of death on the prisoners' records was changed to something else, such as pneumonia, pleurisy, or inflammation of the kidneys. As far as choosing the prisoners for the experiments went, I am acquainted with the fact that many prisoners, especially from among the security prisoners, volunteered.
"On order of Amtsgruppe D, professional criminals were transferred from, other camps and sent to the experimental laboratory in Bucnenwald. I was asked by ss-Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Schuler to help pick the victims because he did not choose to enter the limelight. A man from the Criminal Police Department of the Reich, a Kriminalrat Otto, appeared for this purpose. Only such prisoners were picked who had more than 10 years in prison, were under 40 years of ago, and who were able to meet the physical requirements of an SS mnn. Such examinations took place two times, each time 20 to 30 prisoners were picked. I very seldom, hea* a chance to visit block 46, only when there was an inspection in which I took part. Only twice was I there and within a few days in order to observe patients, That was when, to comply with Dr. Schuler's request, I went to observe the effectiveness of his vaccine. He then asked mo to continue the observations because he had to leave within the next few days. I then did that. I cannot give the number of deaths among experiment patients, in block 46, bub I imagine that during the beginning there were more deaths than towards the end. I estimate the number of deaths recorded during the time I worked in the hospital building to bo between 40 and 50.
"Another experiment of SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Schuler was with a poison which the Russians supposedly used against Germans in Russian territory when they wanted to get rid of them. SS Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Schuler, as far as I know, had orders from the chief SS hygienist, SS Oberfuehrer Prof.Dr. Joachim Mrugowski, to study how this poison takes effect and to use prisoners for the experiment. I don't know how prisoners were chosen for this nor upon whose orders. One day ho asked me to visit the crematorium where the experiment was to take place. There were, as far as I remember, 4 to 6 prisoners. When I got there the poison had already begun to take effect on some. This was visible because the victims threw up, had stomach cramps, and their faces had begun to discolor; one was unconscious; with the others there was less effect to be observed.
"Since I had little time, I left soon and sent a Medical. NCO down whom SS Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Schuler had requested. How the experiment continued, I don't know; I only hoard later that all the prisoners had died.
Another responsibility of being camp doctor was everything that had to do with disinfection. The system of having a man in charge of hygiene in each block was now to me, Their job was to check cleanliness, haircuts, and twice a week to check the men for lice. There wore also many floats, which had been imported by large transports of Frenchman, but they were gotten rid of quickly. Bugs were imported toward the end of 1944, from infested barrack parts of camp Plaszow, which was being evacuated at the time, Infested barracks were immediately disinfected and prisoners used for this purpose had to wash themselves thoroughly every night. In spite of that, bugs were later found in some of the barracks."
Now the rest of this affidavit, as I have said, will be of interest to the tribunal but at this time I will not read any more from it, it merely gives conditions, some of the situations existing in the camp, new arrivals of various transports, and other details. I will now ask the Tribunal to turn to Page 46 in your Document Book. This is a deposition of JADWIGA KAMINSKA, Document Number NO-876.
DR. SEIDL: (Counsel for the Defendants Fischer, Gebhardt and Oberhauser): The Prosecution is about to read 9 affidavits by former inmates of the Concentration Camp Ravensbruect. In object to the admission of these documents in evidence. I make the following explanation of this objection: First, any penal case is ruled by the principle of direct evidence. This means that on principle witnesses must be examined before the Court and only in special exceptional cases can an affidavit replace evidence before the court. The Prosecution has already agreed to this principle to the extent of calling 4 witnesses and examining them on the same subject, that is, the sulfanilamide experiments. These witnesses and other documents which have already been submitted, have completely cleared up the fact. The admission of 9 further affidavits would, in my opinion, net help the Court in determining the truth. Second, the contents of these affidavits, in part, go far beyond what the 4 witnesses have already testified to here before the Court; completely new statements are made in them.
The Prosecution was perfectly free to select those of the 13 witnesses whom they thought most suitable. They selected the 4 witnesses who were examined and thus indicated that they considered the testimony of these witnesses especially valuable. Otherwise, instead of these 4 witnesses they would have brought experimental subjects before the Court from whom they now intend to submit an affidavit. Third, the contents of the 9 affidavits are not only in contrast to part of the testimony which the 4 witnesses gave before the court, many of the affidavits arc contradictory in themselves; they deviate considerably from one another and contain contradictions. If those contradictions arc not cleared up there would not only be nothing gained in the determination of the truth but this task would be made much more difficult. Fourth, several of the witnesses who have given affidavits which are now to be submitted did not themselves participate in experiments and their knowledge is only hearsay. In several cases it is not clear whether the witness is only expressing an assumption or whether she has personal knowledge of the subject. Fifth, the 4 witnesses previously examined testified essentially to the same material. The admission of 9 more affidavits, as far as the evidence is material under the Indictment, would add nothing to the evidence, it would bo cumulative. And finally, for the admission of these affidavits in evidence there is all the less cause since the defendants accused of sulfanilamide experiments at Ravensbrueck do not deny these experiments. The affidavits of ties defendant Fischer made that quite clear; furthermore, the Prosecution has several affidavits from the Defendant Gebhardt, which also shows this quite clearly. That is all.
MR. HARDY: In this regard, Your Honor, I might add that I can sec no reason for the omission of those affidavits as they contain further information into the circumstances existing at Ravensbrueck. These affidavits were obtained by the British War Investigation Teams...
(German translation not coming through, Mr. Hardy is halted.)
I will repeat that I fell that those affidavits add something to the Prosecution's case, not merely cumulative evidence, and that they are fully admissible under Ordinance No.7. The affidavits were obtained in official course by members of the British Army of the Rhine.
I must admit that they may be damaging to the defense and to the defense counsel's clients but I see no reason why we should omit these affidavits at this time. We have here approximately 9 or 10 affidavits. Each time we have submit an affidavit we have the same objection. Now it is impossible for us to get all these witnesses her to be examined and cross-examined, due to the fact that transportation facilities are what they are. Some of these witnesses arc from Norway, France, Poland Belgium, etcetera. We have made every effort to got witnesses here and did bring 4 to bo observed and to be examined and cross-examined. I feel that this objection should be overruled at this time.
JUDGE SEBRING: Do you have there the originals?
MR. HARDY: Yes, I do, Sir.
JUDGE SEBRING: Will you hand them up, please?
MR. HARDY: I might call to the Tribunal's attention that those originals these are copies - you wild find arc certified by Major Matt who has been here with us and are in various languages, French, Swedish, Polish and so fort Your Honor rill note that in each affidavit there is a certificate by Miss Radcliffe of the Documentation Division. The basis for that certificate is based upon a certificate which she has in her hands made by Major Arthur Kieth- ant which accompanies each one of these affidavits And when the document is admitted into evidence here, she makes out a certificate showing where she received from a supposedly authentic copy. And we have available the certificates of Major Hant if the Tribunal wishes to see them.
JUDGE SEBRING: Wouldn't we save time in each case when documents of this kind were handed up for reception if there was also enclosed that certificate so that the Court might have it before it.
MR. HARDY: That is very true, Your Honor, As we pointed out in the first instance, when in the presentation, how, we would follow our procedure, re stated that am would use these affidavits certified by the clerk in the Documentation Division. However, if you want the original certificate in each case, they can be produced; but some difficulty does arise due to the fa.ct that it is, say for instance, we delivered three, four or five affidavits from one source. We will not require them to make out a certificate for each one. We will have them make an accumulative certificate stating all four or five, and we may put them into evidence at different times.
JUDGE SEBRING: Yes, but that accumulative certificate, the several affidavits will certainly be identified, will they not?
MR. HARDY: Certainly, yes, sir.
JUDGE SEBRING: I believe that procedure might expedite the case.
MR. HARDY: In that case, we will deliver them as soon as possible.
THE PRESIDENT: Here is a document No. 874 which does not shear the signature of the affiant that I see. It reads, "Before me, Arthur Kieth Hant ..." This copy doesn't show that the affidavit was ever signed.
MR HARDY: Could I see the copy, Your Honor?
You will note, Your Honor, on the second page of this affidavit the says, "sworn by the said deponent, Dr. Sullfamatski (?), voluntarily, Stockholm, Sweden, July 2, 1946." Now, this is, as I stated, is a certified copy by Major Matt.