A I told you already that at a later date I evaluated these charts and determined the different values and curves, and for my own use at that time I entered this curve, this arrow, because in the copying of the weights and looking at the weights at that time in different charts it starts once here and once there. I noted down the loss of weight at the time in order to evaluate them, and I made that sign at that time. At that time I wasn't thinking that at one time this sign would ever be of any significance. I don't stand here and say that the experiment began at that time because of that. I say only that on the 22nd of March the experiments of Group 1 began.
Q If you entered this mark or this arrow on the 23rd at a later date -- that is, a year or two years after the conclusion of the experiments -- as an evaluation mark, why did you attempt to imitate the red and blue pencil of the original? Why didn't you just use a scratch pencil which would show the later entry and not be an attempt at forgery? If you entered this mark one year later, you had to go and get a red and blue pencil to make your evaluation mark, didn't you?
A Well, in order to make the difference apparent to the eye, between the beginning and the end, probably that is what it was. I wasn't thinking for a long time at that time about what I was doing. Perhaps, I just liked it that way. I can't tell you that any more.
Q Is it possible you made the entry in red and blue pencil in order to deceive your expert witness Volhard, so that he would think the experiments were of a shorter period of time than they actually were?
A I showed Professor Volhard the weight chart. I pointed out to him particularly in the evaluation of this experiment that the most important thing seemed to be how the weights behaved in this experiment, and I hope that I shall have an opportunity later on to prove this. Only from this can one determine one decisive point -- namely, the amount of loss of water. I did not think that the Professor was so stupid that he wouldn't notice that between the 22nd and the 23rd there was a loss of weight of more than 2 kilograms while from the 20th to the 22nd an increase of weight of 0.8. This constant loss of weight I would be crazy if -
Q Now, whether or not Professor Volhard would be stupid enough not to assume that the experiment began on the 8th experimental day or the 9th or the 10th is not an issue here. You, in fact, were either careless enough or stupid enough to yourself to mark the chart that the experiment began on the 23rd and marked it one year later wheN you had ample opportunity to evaluate the charts. Isn't that correct? Now, if you, the experimentor, carelessly -- or, as you put it, stupidly -state here with; your marking that the experiment began on the 23rd, how would an innocent expert looking at these records and making an attempt to evaluate them and then coming here before this tribunal and testify under oath -- how could he determine that any better than you did?
A An expert, of course, should be able to see that at first sight, that the experiment started here.
Q But, you could, not see it, could you, when you made the entry?
A Well, that is evidence of the fact that this was an error on my part.
Q Now, under the date of the 22nd -- you contend that is the date the experiment began, is that correct?
THE PRESIDENT: I would like to ask the witness a question.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, on all of these four charts, the first line indicates the date, does it not?
A Yes, your Honor.
Q On A-2 we find the date in pencil on the first block 14; is that correct?
A On the third block, the date 16.
Q On the fifth, the date 18, and on the seventh, the date 20. The next block is vacant.
A Yes.
Q That would be the 21st of the month, would it not?
A Yes.
Q Over on B-2, the next succeeding date block, was originally written with the date 22, was it not?
A Yes.
Q It was then altered to the 21st, is that correct?
A No.
Q It was altered from the 22nd to the 21st?
AApparently from the 21st to the 22nd.
Q Then, as the charts now stand, there are two dates for the 21st, are there not, the last block on A-2 and the first block on B-2?
A I can remember now, or I believe that I remember, how it happened.
These curves were written in advance; that is, at the desk he wrote down the dates before the charts were fixed to the wall. Probably he made a mistake in the date here. Later on it probably will become apparent how this happened. Originally the 21st had been written down, then he changed that to the 22nd, etc. He probably wrote the whole thing in advance and made an error of one day. This is now the 21st, 22nd, 23rd, etc.
Q On the lower blocks on the chart where the red and blue graphs indicate, both dates are made out. Both dates which should be the 21st are indicated, are they not?
A No. This curve was drawn continuously, I said that the dates were already written down in advance, that is, the date of illness, that was written in advance for the entire curve, and then the curve was placed on the wall near the bed, and then every day it was marked several times --- the pulse, the temperature and the like, and here he must have noticed that in writing the date down in advance he made a mistake. Therefore, only the date was changed and not the observational date that corresponds to the pulse and temperature of 21st, and here to the 22nd, and there to the 23rd, and so on.
Q Then, one day more has a curve than actually existed in the days of the week, did it not? There is one extra day in the curve, is there not?
A No, the curve was made from day to day by the medical students, and the entries were made continuously; and then apparently he noticed that in writing the dates in advance he made an error and he corrected that. This was carried out on the same way, day by day, one day after the other.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q Under the date of 28 August on chart B-2, we find in the fifth block under the graph section of the chart the word which I will spell "Z-u", and the next word "S-c-h-w-a-c-h". Now, does that mean that the patient's pulse was too weak to get a recording?
A The blood pressure of the patients was measured every day when they were lying down and standing up, or after a slight effort. There are two different values for the blood pressure; 104 over 68, 112 over 80? 106 over 71? 110 over 78.
Q (Interposing) What does that entry mean? doctor? the word? "Zu Schwach"?
A Well? that is because he originally did not want to undergo this effort. Please show me the black notebook again.
Q Will you kindly tell me what those words mean? What is the meaning of the words?
A Well? it is concerned with the blood pressure. I want to clarify that by means of the black note book.
Q What do the words "Zu Schwach" mean?
A Because originally they were not supposed to subject him to an effort because if the blood pressure is taken after a person has been subjected to an effort.....
Q (Interposing) What do the words "Zu Schwach" mean? That is simple? is it not?
A That the person who is thirsting and hungry in bed, of course, has a certain weakness in his muscles and therefore, first of all, they did not want to put any pressure on him -- his blood pressure was taken after he first got up, and so forth.
Q This same patient on the 28th and on the 27th of August, in this case, he has a temperature rate above normal, does he?
A Yes, 37.3 and 37.2 in temperature? but that is not a rise in temperature in the sense of a sick person.
Q Now, on this same day, on the 28th, did you not find it necessary to give this patient either Sterofundin or Strychnine? The entry under the 28th on chart B-2 in pencil has been made illegible. The word Strychnine can be made out if you pursue it closely, and the word Sterofundin can be made out. Now, what did you give that subject whose blood pressure was too weak to take?
A The blood pressure was 112 over 80. It was not too weak. Probably he also got Sterofundin probably because he -- that was administered to him on the next day -- that means the interrupting of the experiment. If a thirsting person is given 350 cc's Sterofundin intravenously the experiment has, of course, been interrupted.
Q Well, you had some trouble with this patient, didn't you? Weren't his pulse and temperature rather erratic?
A If you consider a temperature of 37.2 a strong disturbance of temperature, then I do not know what you would say to a person who has a fever of 4l degrees Centigrade. In any condition of thirst 37.2 occurs. Experiments have been described in which the temperature went over 38 up to 39 degrees Centigrade without causing any damage.
Q Well, on the 30th of August, the 31st of August, and on the 1st of September, as indicated on chart C-2, we see that the subject became rather cold on you, didn't he?
A The experimental subject became cold? With 36.4, 36.5 -- if first of all you consider 37.2 a high temperature, then 36.5 could not be considered cold temperature. A body temperature of 36, 35.8, is enough for normal temperature.
Q His temperature dropped, down to 35.3, didn't it?
A Where?
Q Here.
A That means times two; that is 3 times 2 are 6; 35.6 was the lowest temperature.
Q Doesn't that indicate that the subject got rather cold?
A That means that the person was still within the scope of normal temperature; that does not mean anything else.
Q Well, now, the final weight entry, which is included under the 3rd of September, states here that on the 11th of September his weight was 62 kilograms, then that 62 kilograms is written over in ink with 64 ½ kilograms. How do you explain that correction?
A That can only be explained by saying that apparently he made a mistake here, confused it with another one. Apparently he registered the weight of experimental person No. 1, erroneously marked it on chart No. 2, and then he corrected it because he noticed that he made an error. It is the same handwriting -- the handwriting of the medical student Seine from Marsailles, whom I mentioned yesterday, and whom I have not seen since September 1944. And I should like to ask you that this medical student should identify his own handwriting here.
Q This medical student obviously did not put this weight in on the 11th of September did he, because he said "um den", meaning about the 11th of September his weight was that is that correct?
A He was a Frenchman who spoke only a few words of German, and probably he wanted to write "on the "an dem", because frequently he used German terms which were absolutely not correct.
Q In case No. 1 he used only the word "den", didn't he?
A At the moment I cannot tell you any more why the medical student, this French medical student, at that time wrote "um den". That is the way it was determined at that time. What reason should we have had at that time to write about.
Q Where did this patient go after the 3rd of September? To the hospital?
A I did not send any one of my experimental subjects to the hospital except case No. 9 which came up during the preliminary period. Otherwise all the experimental subjects remained with me from the beginning to the end. I had the fever curves in the experimental room until the 11th or 12th, and then I took them away, except for group 2. They may have stayed there a few days longer. I looked over the results and wrote them down. The fever curves were carried on until the 3rd regularly, and from the 3rd to the 12th the temperature was no longer recorded. And on the 11th, probably the 12th, the final weight was determined. That is the weight which he then carried as the weight at the time of discharge.
If I had kept the curve longer and weighed them until the 13th, my weight balance might have come out a lot better.
Q Will you find the weight for us in this black book? For this No. 2 subject?
A In this black book, as far as I remember, there are no weights recorded at all.
Q I am sorry, your Honor, the black book does not have the weights which are indicated on the charts.
A It does not show any weights at all. The weights were not recorded anywhere else but on these curves.
Q Well then, on these charts we see in the last few days of the experiments, as opposed to the chart of case No. 1, that the urinary output is recorded under the date of the 30th and 31st of August, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct. The medical man put it down once and another time he didn't -- I did not consider the record of the amount of urine on this chart so important, because the amount of urine had been marked on the fever curve.
Q One question, your Honor, will you kindly tell us whether or not the urinary output indicated on charts B2 and C2 are recorded in the black book?
A On the 30th it says here, 520, that is, 500 is recorded here. On the 2nd, that is not exact; on the 2nd, 600, on the 31st, 600, is marked here, and there is nothing more recorded here either.
THE PRESIDENT: These records having been impounded by the Tribunal must remain in the custody of the representative of the Secretary General. If either party wishes to examine them during the noon recess, he may do so in the presence of the Secretary General.
The Court will now be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(Thereupon the Court recessed until 1330 hours, 11 June 1947).
AFTERNOON SESSION The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 11 June 1947.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please take their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
WILHELM BEIGLBOCK - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION(CONTINUED)
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal having reconvened, notes the absence of defendant's counsel, Dr. Steinbauer.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, Dr. Steinbauer is on his way up to the courtroom. He misunderstood the Tribunal and thought this afternoon's session would not begin until three o'clock.
DR. STEINBAUER: I humbly beg the Tribunal's pardon. I had supposed that the court would reconvene at three o'clock. That is why I was late.
THE PRESIDENT: Defense counsel being present, counsel may proceed.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q Dr. Beiglboeck on chart No. B-2 we find under the date 29 August, the 16th day of the experiment, an initial on the side of the chart "HP" or "C". Could you explain to us whether that is an "HP" or an "HC"?
A That must be "HP". That was the time when we were looking for a hypertonic solution.
Q Would you kindly repeat your answer, Dr. Beiglboeck, as to the meaning of this initial under date of 29 August?
A Many cases were interrupted by drinking and some by intravenous injections and some, as I said before, through a stomach sound. This was a hypertonic injection, namely, through the veins.
Q Well, is this some sort of a puncture?
A No, an injection into the vein.
Q An injection into a vein? Well, did you perform any punctures?
A Yes.
Q Did you perform any systernal punctures? Systernal punctures?
A You mean an occipital puncture? No, I can't do that. I don't know how. Never did that in my whole life nor do I know for what purpose in thirst experiments such a puncture would have been performed. That would have been senseless.
Q Did you perform any lumbar punctures?
A In individual cases in tho sea water experiments I did perform lumbar punctures.
Q Did you perform any liver punctures?
A Yes.
Q Now, this is Case No. 3, your Honor. I will request the Tribunal to mark these three charts A-3? B-3? C-3. Now, this case No. 3, Dr. Beiglboeck, is also a hunger and thirst case, is it not?
A Yes.
Q Will you kindly read us the name of the experimental subject contained in the top left hand corner of chart A-3?
A Bernhard.
Q Spell that.
A Yes that is Bernhard.
Q Kindly spell that for us.
A B-e-r-n-h-a-r-d.
Q Now, under the 21 August on chart A-3, under the 8th day of the experiment, does the markings therein where the German words "Hunger D" appear indicate the state of the experiment?
A Here also you must deduce from the weights that the experiment began on the 22. I do know that all the experiments began on the 22. I believe I recall now that on the day before, in the morning, I wrote down that there were to begin hungering and thirsting there and that is why that arrow was made there. 58.5, then on the 23 another weight, then on the 24th another weight, and so on.
Q The arrow with the blue circle found under date of 22 August, the 9th day of the experiment, on chart B-3, was put on this chart one year alter the experiments were completed?
A As I have already said I put down all these arrows when I re-evaluated these curves but I can't tell you when that precise date was.
Q How many days was this person subjected to hunger and thirst if we assume that the experiments started on the 22 as you allege?
A The experiment was interrupted on the 8th day.
Q On the 8th day? Now where do you start to count the first day?
A 22. On the 8th day at noon, at 12:30, starting on the 22. Let me point out that from the 26 to the 27 there is a loss in weight of only 700 grams. This loss occurs when a person hungers without thirsting. That is certain proof that in the meantime this experi mental subject had drunk water.
On other days he lost more than a kilogram and on this day 700 grams. This is one of those cases where the experiment was disturbed by the subject drinking.
Q Well, can you ascertain from looking at the section of the chart under the black blunt line in the middle of the chart and examining the vertical red lines which indicate the urinary output that this subject was getting water to drink?
A You cannot ascertain that from the amount of urine from a person who is thirsting. You can ascertain that from a person who is thirsting from sea water. You can't tell that when a person is thirsting because at the moment he received water he absorbs a great deal of that water. You can see that after the conclusion of the experiments when a man drank 2 ½ liters and only eliminated 500 ccm in his urine. In other words the subject does not excrete all but absorbs a great deal of it. In this case the amount of urine is no reliable proof for the fact whether he drank or not. However, the difference in weight a person who is thirsting loses is a reliable proof. For it is impossible for a person thirsting not to lose weight, because he has to eliminate water not only through the kidney, but also through the lungs. In the other cases that we will come to those who normally received a good deal to drink and only fasted and got the same food, they lost faily 500, 4OO, 600, grams and you have to deduce from that that this man although thirsting and fasting, is eliminating only 100 or 200 cc of water through his lungs, his kidneys, or his skin. That is impossible. This man here certainly drank. He even admitted it. Moreover it can readily be seen from the relationship of the red corpuscles. The number does not increase from 5,900,000 that he had, but decreases to 5.7 and then to 5½ million and this is certainly a sign that the blood was thinned down. That could only occur if he consumed fluid.
Q Well, now, on the 27 August as indicated on chart B-3, that is the 14th day of the experiment and the 6th day that he was subjected to hunger and thirst, if we assume that the commencement was 22 of August, or 7th day if we assume that the commencement was 21 of August, we note that the language, or words appear "Zu schwach" at the bottom here in line 9, which indicates that the blood pressure was too weak to take.
Now, that appears under 27 August, under 28 August, under 29 August, and continually through the experiment. Now, what does that mean?
A At first in the preliminary period the blood pressure was taken while the patient was lying down. Those are the records you have there. Then it was taken according to stress. That is known as the stress measure of blood pressure. For this purpose the experimental subject has to move, to take exercise. Usually let him do knee exercises, bending his knees. Now, I told the doctors that if the muscles became dried out, giving certain weakness in the muscles which was to be expected in the case of thirsting, should not be given the stress measure of blood pressure but their blood pressure should be taken only while lying down. That is what the words "too weak" mean. Too weak to do exercise. The man who wrote this down was a Frenchman and if he had known that this would become a matter of discussion in a trial perhaps he wouldn't have chosen this expression. It simply means taken when lying down and after exercise. This young colleague was not one of those who liked to work very much and consequently he wasn't too careful in what terminology he chose.
Q Then, those entries of "too weak" under the dates 27th, 28th, 29, 30th and 31st of August, do not indicate that the subject is ill?
A This is Case 3, I see. He had some intestinal difficulties. This experimental subject, I remember now.......
Q (Interrupting) Would you kindly repeat your answer to that last question, Dr. Beiglboeck, and at this time, Your Honor, I request the interpreter in English to speak louder because I have difficulty hearing the English over the voice of Dr. Beigloeck.
A Can I go on? In this case, after the experiment was interrupted, the man had intestinal troubles in the form of a swelling of the abdomen. For a long time, he had not eliminated any solid waste material and so he had some pains and, for that reason, he was given strychnine in order to start his bowels moving again.
Q Well, Doctor, did the entries "too weak" under the 27th of August indicate that there should be cause for worry about this patient's condition?
A When a person is thirsting his musculature goes through a certain change. There is no cause for concern, namely, the muscles become weak because the muscles are dried out. That is no cause for concern, as he has perfectly normal temperature and pulse. It is a weakness in the muscles brought about by the fact that the muscles have been dehydrated because the man is thirsting. If you thirst for several days, the muscles will greatly change. They become hard and there is a certain debility in them.
Q Even after those symptoms appeared you continued to keep him on the hunger and thirst experiment until two days later, isn't that correct?
A This effect on the muscles is brought about by the thirst. This is one of the symptoms of thirst. You do not have a thirst condition unless you have this symptom. There is nothing dangerous in it. There is only one dangerous situation that can arise in a thirst ex periment and that is the moment when the body has lost more than a certain percentage of its body water.
Nothing else is of any importance or danger.
Q Well then, do you maintain that these marks "too weak" indicate that, because of the lack of water, the patient was unable to get out of bed?
A That means that the muscles had given up-water. That is a typical symptom of thirst.
Q Well, what would be necessary to take the blood pressure of a patient in such a condition as that? Couldn't that be taken under any circumstances?
A I did not get that.
Q Couldn't the blood pressure of a person in a condition as set forth in Chart B-3 under the date 27th of August, the 14th experimental day, couldn't that blood pressure be taken under any circumstances, or was it necessary to say "too weak" to take the blood pressure?
A The blood pressure has been regularly measured here when the man was lying down. If you measure blood pressure after the person has exercised - he has to go through some movements to take this exercise, and, since I didn't want these men, If they were already having difficulties with their muscles, to go through exorcise, I told them "We won't have you get up any more. We'll measure your blood pressure only when you are lying down." This does not mean that we stopped taking their blood pressure. This was a different method of taking it; to writ, when the man is lying down and not after he has gone through exercise.
Q Well, in scientific recordings of experiments when you are recording blood pressure isn't usually the first blood pressure the blood pressure of the person while lying down and the second blood pressure is while a person is standing, and then a third entry would be made for blood pressure after exercise? Isn't that customary?
A The custom is that you take a first measurement when the man is lying down and then after movement. There are various methods, but the important thing is to ascertain the change in blood pressure that occurs between measuring it when the man is lying down and when he has exercised. This is the typical method.
Q Now, on Chart B-3, under the date 28 August, the 15th day of the experiment, would you kindly explain to the Tribunal just what these four entries mean? One with 350 cc, 150 cc, 40 cc, etc., of various drugs? Would you explain each one of those entries, please?
A This entry belongs to the next day. This is the fluid that was used when the experiment was interrupted. The intraveneous injections.
Q Well, why didn't you place that entry under the next day rather than place it under the date 28 August?
A That is a question I should have to ask the medic who made the entry. This arrow obviously means that the experiment was interrupted and any introduction of fluid was an interruption of the experiment. I suppose that some one first entered the urine here and then the next person could not find space for his entry in the proper place. That is something I knew very well at the time because it is clear that the interruption - it is perfectly clear that the introduction of this fluid into the person meant that the experiment was interrupted. That the interruption actually occurred is evident from the weights.
Q Well then, this entry in pencil, under the 28th of August, on Chart B-3, indicates that this subject was given 250 cc of sterofundin, 100 cc of saline, 40 cc of glucose and 1 cc of kolamine, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Will you explain to the Tribunal just what kolomine is?
A Kolamine is a circulation stimulant.
Q That is, a heart stimulant?
A A drug that affects the circulation, not the heart. I usually gave circulation drugs when interrupting the experiment not because it was necessary but because the heart had theretofore been working under different conditions. You can see that the pulse sinks here. In other words, there were cases of thirsting and fasting - as we know also from fasting cures - where the pulse and circulation is considerably slowed down. If he received fluid, all of a sudden the amount of the blood in the body is changed. Thirst leads to a reduction in the amount of blood, and in order to make this sudden change more tolerable to the heart I introduced occasionally this drug to effect the circulation, as you will see from many graphs. That was not any part of the treatment, but a prophylaxis.
Q Well now, we notice here, on the date of 30th of June, on Chart C-3, a considerable rise in temperature curve is continued for a period of four days. That is, the 30th of August, 31st of August, and the first and second days of September, and the continued administration of strychnine to the subject.
A I told you why that was. This man had an intestinal disorder, and a man who has not gone to the lavatory for many days, if he suddenly develops a swelling in the abdomen, you must assume that he is having difficulties with his digestion. Strychnine was simply given him as a tonic. His temperature maximum is 37.8, then it goes down to .2 and up again to .4. 37.3 is an increase in temperature which would not be mentioned in any text book as a state of fever.
Q Well now, on the 3rd of September, the last day of recording, which is indicated on Chart C-3, we note a considerable drop in the temperature of the patient. Was that drop a fatal one?
A This drop could not have been fatal because it was followed by a subsequent rise. It seldom happens that a dying person's temperature rises. That is almost impossible.
Q Well, is this case of Bernhard one of your most troublesome ones?
A He was one of the few cases that had a complication is so far as he had this difficulty with his abdomen. Then, I had the two cases with the muscular cramps. That was in Case 1, and then another one will turn up later. You can't speak of this as a serious or difficult case.
Q Let's look at Case #5 for the moment.
If your Honors please, I request that these three charts be marked "A-5", "B-5", and "C-5".
Now, could you kindly tell us the name of that experimental subject?
A That I can't tell you.
Q Has there been an erasure in that document in the space...
A Yes, but certainly not by me. That is a handwriting that I do not recognize.
Q Could that name be Getz, G-e-t-z?
A That could be F-e-h, or it could be F-e-t-z, but so far as I remember we did not have any subject by that name.
Q Is that your handwriting?
A No.
Q Is that your handwriting of which the impression is legible beneath the handwriting you deny to be yours?
A No, that isn't either.
Q Do you know whether or not that document has been altered here in Nurnberg?
A Certainly not by me.
Q Did your defense counsel alter it?
A I am convinced that he did not.
Q Now under the 27th of August on Chart B-5 we note a pencilled notation which has been crossed out in blue pencil, do you see that?
A Yes.
Q What appears there prior to that crossing out in blue?
AAcetone positive.
Q Did you perform a liver puncture on this case V?
A No.
Q Under the entry 22 August on Chart B-5 the red arrow with the blue circle at the end thereof, dues that indicate the beginning of the experiment?
A Yes.
Q Did you place that mark in there at the time of the experiments at Dachau or at some later date?
A I have already told you that I put down all of these marks when I evaluated the experiments. They were all put down later.
Q Now, the mark under the date 21st of August on Chart -5 on the 8th day was put in at the time of the experiment at Dachau, is that correct, under "D", and the arrow?
A It is the same in every case. Every experiment began on the 22nd of August. That can be seen very clearly from the weights. I can only continue to reiterate what I have said, on the day before I determined who would hunger and thirst, who would get sea water, etc. and that indicates that the experiment would begin on the following day.
Q Then if an expert looked at this and did not consult the weights he would, think the experiment began on the 8th day, the 21st of August, and. then you changed your mind and began on the 22nd -there are two marks indicating the beginning of the experiment?
A Every specialist would look, first of all at the weights, otherwise he wouldn't be a specialist.
A Lets turn to No. VI. Will the Tribunal kindly mark these A, B, and C. A - Let me say regarding case five that there is a change in weight from one day to the other where a man loses only 200 grams in one day. He too then must have drunk water.
Would you kindly notice Sheet A-6, the section where the names should appear and tell us whether or not that name has been erased?
A I can't tell for sure.
Q Well, is it customary to make out a set of charts on a patient and not put his name on anyone of the three charts you made out?
A I didn't understand.
Q Did you customarily in the course of your experiment compile data on a specific individual and not put the person's name on the charts that pertain to that particular case?
A The name of course, is entirely unimportant.
Q Is it not obvious to you the name once appeared, on this chart A-6, and has been erased; may I suggest to you that the name was Schakowski?
A I can't read anything here.
Q Do you see the erasure there?
A I can't be sure that I do.