A If you will please pass me the booklet I can show you that the amount of urine are entered very exactly.
Q. That is not my question, Doctor; my question is: In scientific research is it necessary to keep accurate or haphazard records?
A Of course, it is necessary to have exact in recording the amount of Urine we put the amounts down in a separate booklet.
Q These records that are before the Tribunal purport to be accurate scientific records of experiments conducted on 44 experimental subjects in the concentration camp Dachau?
A What was necessary for arriving at a decisive result in the experiments was set down in an exact way.
Q Doctor, this case, No. 1, is the first case in the hunger and thirst group, is it not?
A Yes.
Q. Now the subject's first name was Franz, was it not, F-r-a-n-z?
A I cannot tell you whether that is his first or his last name.
Q. Is it possible that his last name did appear on the charts at one time or is it customary to merely put down the first name of the patient?
A I assume that is his family name. As far as I know I never entered the first name, so in the names here those are the family names of the subjects.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, in whose handwriting is the name Franz written.
A That is my handwriting.
Q Witness, this experiment, we note on chart A-1 you indicate for the first seven days of the experiment was an observation period; is that correct?
A The period of observation closes at the eight day. The experiment begins on this day here.
Q Then, the experiment you contend began on the ninth day?
A Yes, as you can see from the weight.
JUDGE SEBRING: Would it be more explicit to say then that in the four graphs now before the Tribunal, marked A-l, to D-l inclusive, the chart A-1 is concerned only with the preliminary period or the beginning of experiments?
MR. HARDY: No, your Honor, I can possibly identify them, but the Prosecution contends the experiments began on the eight day and not the ninth.
Q Now, on the eight day, which is indicated on chart A-1, we see in the portion of the chart under the eight day, the note "Hunger D"; what does that refer to, Doctor?
A That means that on this day I ordered that the hunger-thirst experiment was to begin.
Q Then, this eight day which was the 31st day of August, the eight day of the experiment as indicated on Chart A-l, is the beginning of the experiment?
A It begins on the 22nd, that can be seen from the weight very clearly. If it had began on the 21st the first loss of weight would have occurred then. It went, he actually gained weight in that period and that is a certain indication that the experiment did not begin on that day. You notice here that once the experiment began he lost 2.5 kilos and 2 kilos and so on. In other words, a hunger-thirst experiment supposes that the man will lose weight immediately once it begins.
Q. Doctor, can you tell the Tribunal when the arrow in the portion of the chart under the numth day of the experiment, under the date of 22 August, on Chart B-1, the arrow which has the blue circle at the end thereof and the initials LB along the side of it, was placed on this chart?
A. I believe that I did it at the time when I evaluated the graphs.
Q. Is it apparent from this chart that the red arrow appearing in the blue circle under the 22nd is in a different color red pencil than that of the red pencil marks on all the charts?
A. Yes, you can see that everywhere. These curves were made by different people. I can't say the same pencil was used all the time, but that in itself proves nothing. There were three or four different people. Once this person took the temperatures and then another one and whether they always used the same red pencil I can't say.
Q. Now, doctor, we note on the chart B-1, under the 22nd August the 9th day of the Experiment, the patient has received pyramidon, a drug. What was the purpose of administering pyramidon to that patient?
A. I don't remember that anymore now. Perhaps he had some headache or something like that.
Q. Is pyramidon a headache remedy?
A. Well, pyramidon is administered for all kinds of different things. Among other things it is given in cases of headache.
Q. It is possible that the patient didn't have a headache before the experiment started, did he?
A. I can't say anymore today why I gave him pyramidon at that time.
Q. Well, now on the same date, that is also on the same date, that is the 22nd August, the 9th day of the experiment as indicated on chart B-l, we sec in the portion of the chart under this black blunt line that a blue vertical line has been placed on the chart and then erased. Is that correct?
A. Well, there was an error. In any case probably it was erased because it was marked in there by mistake.
Such things occur once in a while. At the moment I can't reconstruct in all details. In any case the hunger and thirst period begins here and, therefore, it is impossible that he had a blue line here. The person marking it made a mistake. First marked it in blue and then in red pencil.
Q. You exclude the possibility that the arrow with the blue circle on the end thereof and the blue vertical mark which has been erased on the chart B-l, under date of 22 August, the 9th day of the experiment, were marks made on. these charts since the commencement of this action before this Tribunal?
A. Yes, I can exclude that possibility. I did. not mark anything at all here.
Q. When did the blue circle and the arrow appear on this chart for the first time? That is, the red arrow with the blue circle on the end thereof contained in chart B-1 under date of 22 August, the 9th day of the experiment?
A. I cannot state that with certainty. I don't remember it anymore.
Q. Well, now you stated that you put that arrow on the chart when you evaluated the material. Was it when you evaluated the material here in Nurnberg or was it when you evaluated the material in August 1944 in the Dachau concentration camp?
A. I evaluated it at a later time. I cannot state with certainty when I did so. It happened that at that time I marked that arrow but that arrow isn't important at all. The important thing is that by the curves of the weight one can see Quite clearly when the experiment was started.
Q. Well, in the first instance, that is at Dachau when you began an experiment, didn't you mark at that time when the experiment began or did you wait until a later date to mark the beginning of the experiment? You see, doctor, on chart A-1, under the date 21 August, the 8th day of the experiment, you very clearly, mark the commencement of the experiment by saying hunger and thirst will begin on this date.
Isn't that true?
THE PRESIDENT: Where is that said, Mr. Hardy?
MR. HARDY: Under 21 August on chart A-1, your Honor, the 8th day of the experiment - tho German mark "Hunger-D", which means "hungerthirst".
A. Well today I cannot inform you anymore about every little detail. Probably at that time I made that mark on it so that the medical orderlies would know that this was the hunger and thirst group, and when the experiments began. But, please believe me, the experiment could not have started any earlier than the loss of weight, because it is impossible that a person hunger and thirst for 24 hours and still gain weight. That is impossible.
Q. Can a person lose weight immediately upon being subjected to hunger and thirst for a very short period of 24 hours? Will he lose a tremendous amount of weight in that short period of time?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. Is it possible, doctor, that you put the arrow with the blue circle on the end thereof, found on chart B-1 under date of 22 August, the 9th day of the experiment, on this chart at a later date in order to shorten the period of starvation of this patient? In other words to shorten the experimental days from 7 to 6?
JUDGE SEBRING: Do you mean that, Mr. Hardy? Or, do you moan to apparently shorten the experimental days by indicating upon the records kept a shorter period of time?
MR. HARDY: Yes, Your Honor, that is what I mean to convey.
A. From the curves of the weight it is visible so clearly when the experiment was started that it would be absolutely senseless to attempt a thing like that.
JUDGE SEBRING: Doctor, can you state at what time during each day the weight of your experimental subjects was taken?
A. The weight, I believe was taken in the morning or during the morning, during the forenoon.
JUDGE SEBRING: Then if that be true tho first day upon which hunger and thirst, that is, the fasting period started, would not indicate a loss of weight, would it, doctor? There would have to be an interim of 24 hours before there would be any recorded loss of weight, if weights were taken each morning?
A. Well, here for example is tho weight determined before the beginning of the experiment. Then the person suffered hunger and thirst for 24 hours and then tho next weight is 2.5 kilograms less, that is 5 pounds. Then 24 hours elapse and then 2 kilogram less, and then 24 hours and the person weights 1 kilogram less. In other words, you count upon that person who is hungering and thirsting losing l/2 to 2 kilograms of body weight in the first 24 hours. Now, hero by accident it happens that the weight was not determined on the 21st. This alone indicates that the experiment did not begin on this day, because we had to find out tho weight before tho beginning, If tho experiment had actually begun on this day, tho experimental subject, in order to begin with a loss of weight of 2 kilograms, would have had. to gain 2 kilograms on the first day of tho experiment, from the 21st to the 22nd and that is impossible.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Dr. Beiglboeck, this arrow with the blue circle on the end thereof, under date of August 22 on chart B-1, the 9th day of tho experiment, when did you place that mark on that chart? You say that you made it yourself. Now, just when did you do it? Did you do it since you have been here in this prison when you evaluated these charts?
A. I marked this arrow in order to evaluate the charts.
Q. When?
A. I believe that I did it in the year 1945.
Q. 1945?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't do it in prison?
A. No.
Q. 1945? That is one year after the completion of the experiments?
A. Yes. At that time I evaluated them again.
Q. Isn't a chart of scientific experiments supposed to represent things that actually happened and not an order book?
A. Well this was not a document, not from my point of view, but was the basis for evaluation for me. If one conducts an experiment one first takes some notes during the experiment and later on one evaluates these notes.
Q. These were not a document, but merely the record of the experiment kept daily. Is that right? The only records kept?
A. These records were kept in order to obtain the curves of weight and thirst. The rest of the figures were recorded in the notebooks. That is how it is done in every experiment.
Q. Well now, on Chart B-1, under the date 22 August, the ninth day of the experiment, we see a notation that pyramidon had been administered to the subject used. If that is the correct date of the commencement of the experiment as contended by you, was it proper scientifically to start a person out on an experiment of hunger and thirst for a period of five or six days if they were suffering to the extent that it was necessary to administer pyramidon to that subject?
A. At the moment I am no longer in a position to state to you the reason why I gave them pyramidon at that time. If somebody tells me, "I have a little headache today," that is not an illness, after all.
Q. On Chart B-1, under the date lino, that is, the first horizontal line, after the heading of the chart, wo note the dates, the 22nd, 23rd 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th 28th and 29th of August. Each one of those dates has been altered. Can you tell me when those dates were altered?
A. They were certainly miswritten by mistake. Somebody made a mistake in writing them down. They were changed in the same handwriting as the original figures. Probably he just made a mistake in writing them down. These charts were filled out in advance. They were fixed on the wall and then the medical orderly went over and wrote the dates for the entire week down. Now, it is entirely possible that he made a mistake and later erased the wrong dates.
You can see from other charts that that is possible. Certainly, the same correction doesn't appear on all the charts. Of course, if some one writes the dates down in advance it is possible that he makes a mistake and, if he made a mistake, he later on corrects it. I consider that entirely possible.
Q. Well, now, you say, under the date of the 21st of August, contained on Chart A-1, that the weight under the eighth experimental day does not appear and that if you had commenced the experiment on that date that the weight would appear. Is it possible that the date - the 21st of August, was erroneously placed under that date and then the date later changed to the 22nd?
A. Please hand me some other fever graphs. Others than these here. The experiments all started on the same day.
Q. I desire to chock this one now. We'll go to the others as we come to them, Doctor.
A. The experiments all began on the same day as far as the first group from 1 to 32 is concerned. All of them. What happened here, is, in my opinion, an error of the medical orderly who wrote the dates in advance - who perhaps made a mistake of one day and then, on his own, he corrected it later on.
Q. Let's go to the next portion of the chart. Now, this experiment you contend began on the 22nd day of August and lasted until the 27th day of August, That is, the experiment lasted five days. Is that your contention? 1, 2, 5, 4, 5 days?
To indicate the end of the experiments, Your Honor, in a hunger and thirst experiment, the subject being given no food or water, will indicate no intake in the section of the chart below the black blunt line - that is, the vertical blue lines which indicate an intake on the part of the subject used do not appear in a hanger and thirst experiment, and when the blue vertical line appears for the first time that indicates that the patient or subject has received food or water, in this case, water.
JUDGE SEBRING: Do you agree with that, defendant, that explanation? Do you agree with that statement?
WITNESS: Yes, blue means intake of liquid and rod means elimination.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Now, on the 27th of August, indicated on Chart B-1, the 14th day of the experiment, do you contend that that was the last day of the experiment or the end of the hunger and thirst of this patient Franz?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Would you kindly tell the Tribunal what the red arrow running vertically, with a rod circle on the end thereof, found under the date 27 August on Chart B-1 under the 14th day of the experiment, indicates?
A. It means that the experiment was terminated.
Q. Now, in that same block under the 27th of August, on Chart B-1, the 14th day of the experiment, appears some pencil notations which indicate, I assume, that this patient was rather ill and that you gave him 100 cc of sterofundin, 4C cc of glucose and 10 cc of calcium, by vein. Is that correct?
A. As far as I can tell from the blue lino, he must have received at least 500 cc intravenously, but it is possible that some physiological salt solution was added to this. Glucose he received in order to give him some nurishment to give him the first calories, and calcium he received....
Yes, I gave them calcium because of the muscles. Because of the oversensitivity of the muscles, this strong reaction that I have already described before, I gave calcium in all these experiments in order to calm the muscles. You will probably find that on many of the charts.
Q. What is sterofundin? Is that a heart stimulant?
A. Sterofundin?
Q. Yes.
A. Sterofundin is a trademark for a liquid which is something like a physiological table-salt solution. I should say it is a sort of Ringer solution.
Q. What is its purpose?
A. To introduce liquid.
Q. Now, on the 27th day of August, which was the last day of the experiment, indicated on Chart B-1, we note, that is, under the black blunt line and above the black broad line, the blue line running irregularly from left to right which indicates the temperature of the patient has exceeded the normal temperature rate and has gone up considerably. Now, was that patient very ill on that day?
A. Well, one really cannot talk of considerable increase if somebody has a temperature of 37,6. The intravenous injection of salt solution brings about a slight rise in temperature regularly. That can be seen in the most healthy person. One even can observe that the physiological table salt solution, if intravenously injected causes the temperature to rise to 38 or 39 degrees. That is not a sign of illness. That is just the reaction. Moreover, if this should have happened before - and that seems to me more porbable as I just see now in the case of persons who arc thirsty, one sees frequently that they have slight rises of temperature. That has been known in world of medicine for one hundred years.
Q. Well now, tell us, Doctor, in these charts we note, under the date the 29th of August, on Chart B-1, the dates 30th on Chart C-1, then the 51st on Chart C-1, then the 1st of September on Chart C-1, that the patient received a considerable amount of water and food but the lack of indication of urinary output in the last days of the experiment? On the last day of the charting of the subject's condition?
A. Please show me the black notebook. Then, I can tell you exactly how much urine the patient eliminated on the 29th. The 29th......
Q. Or was this one of the patients who throw away his urine?
A. I know now, The 29th - from that date on, the urine was no longer saved because we no longer made the the analysis of the urine.
Q. Now, the entry on September 3 on Chart C-l, under September 3, indicates the weight of the patient on the 3rd of September to be 61 kilos, and the Tribunal will note that the weight of the patient hero is indicated on the third line under the graph section of the chart as opposeded to the indication of weight on the Charts B-l and A-l where the weight is indicated on the third line from the head of the chart. They have two places to indicate weights, and on the third chart, namely C-l, they merely placed the weight down here rather than on the top of the chart. They placed it down at the bottom -- the third lino under the graph section. This weight, 61 kilos, indicates that the subject was still four pounds underweight. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q Well, now in the space under 3rd September under Chart C-l the 21st day of the experiment appears English translations which indicate that the weight of the patient on the 12th of September was 62 kilos, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q When was that entry in ink made under the date 3rd September indicating that the weight on the 12th September was 62 kilos made?
A That was made on 12 September. I let them carry on the fever curves only for a short time afterwards, because there was no reason later on the person who was feeling fine to measure everything quite exactly, and on the 12th of September I had the final weights taken for the most part, because then I gathered the charts and took the charts to my apartment, that is where I was living, and therefore on the 12th of September I had the weights taken, and if I could ask you again to give me that notebook, on this occasion I can show you right away that these figures were written down here. You see, for instance, the figures written down by the French medical student. You see I shall show you some of them--I wrote them, for example--
Q In the black book, which coincides with the registration of the weight under the section 3 September on Chart C-1?
A The weight is noted down only here.
Q When was that information put on Chart C-1?
A On the 12th September 1944.
Q Is it in the black book?
A No.
Q Why not?
A Because the weights are recorded only here on these curves, and in the black book they put down the amount of urine, the specific weight of the urine, the BH determination of the urine, the blood analysis, etc. and similar things. The weight was marked on these curves here.
Q Is the black book supposed to be the scientific record that has all the particulars of the experiments contained therein?
A The black book is not the notation of the scientific values, but only a part of the notations. Every person who took part in determinations had his own notebook, you can see that quite clearly. One had a grey notebook where he put the nitrogen values, another one had a notebook where the salt values were put down, and then Bielwein or Wolocek, one of them, I believe it was Bielwein, looked at these notebooks every day and marked it on these charts here. From that time -
Q What does the word "den" in German mean, which is written before the date 12 September and 62 Kilos, which is indicated under the date 3 September on Chart C-1?
A "The 12th September 1944." That is another expression for saying "On the 12th of September." A Frenchman wrote it, and occasionally he might have used a somewhat more unusual expression.
Q You mean a Frenchman put that notation which appears on 3 September 1944 during the last seven months of this year since your trial began?
A Since the 15th September 1944 I have not seen those Frenchmen. Through my defense counsel, I put in application through the Secretary General already in December 1946 that they should look for these French Medical students as witnesses for me, and I would consider myself very fortunate if they could be found, for at this moment the identification of the handwriting and the curves would be made possible in a much more simple manner than possible under the present circumstances.
Q I have one more question with these series of charts, Doctor. Under date 3 September 1941, the very first day we find the temperature lines, the program temperature line, intersects the pulse line, that is the red pulse line. Now, isn't the crossing of the temperature and pulse curves rather significant cause for worry?
A Well, the important thing is to what extent this takes place.
Q And I am informed that clinically the crossing of the temperature and pulse curves is a deadly sign, is that right?
A Well, Mr. Prosecutor; you probably got some insufficient information here. If a person has a pulse of 100 that is not a deadly sign.
Q If the pulse curves and fever curves intersect is that a sign that would give a clinician cause to worry about his patient, would he have a little more cause to worry about his patient than usual?
A I don't know whether this pulse was not taken after the experimental subject happened to have taken a long walk. But you see that later on the pulse was taken several times; and then this dead person has a pulse of 80 and then 60.
Q I didn't say the person was dead; I asked you whether clinically the intersection of the pulse curve and the fever curve would give the clinician cause for worry?
A No, I can't say that just like that. If before a person has a temperature of let us say 37 and he suddenly sinks to 34, and his pulse rises from 80 to 150, then that is a sign there is disease here; but these are physiological deviations you see here.
Q Let's go on to Case II; Doctor. Case No. II contains four charts -- No. II; and I request the Tribunal mark them A to B-a, C-2 to D-a.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I hope that going over the next two charts will not be as extensive as the first one, inasmuch as going over the first one it was necessary to acquaint the Tribunal with the charts and explain them so we can discuss them.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess for a few minutes.
(Thereupon a recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q Now, with the charts indicating the second experimental subject, we note on chart A-2 the name of the subject has been erased; can you tell us whether or not that erasure was made by yourself, Doctor?
A No, I did not erase anything here at all.
Q Who made that erasure?
A I cannot tell you that now, perhaps at the time it was written down by mistake.
Q The Tribunal will note the name on chart A--2 has been erased and you can see the impression of the letters: K - L-A and I believe it is N and then the next letter, the impression cannot be seen and the next is E again; who made that erasure, Doctor?
I do not know that any more, I cannot tell you. Perhaps it is possible that there was a wrong name written down. In any case, I did not erase it or perhaps I did so at the time but I did not do it later. If I had erased it here, I would probably have done it in such a way that you could not read it now.
Q Have you been advised that was erased here in Nurnberg?
A No.
Q Can you look at the name on chart A-2 and determine from the impression thereon what letters may have been there before the erasure; using this glass?
(A magnifying glass is handed to the witness.)
A Klau - Klau; well as far as I can see there is a K-L-A and then it must have been a D like in Dora and then the next I cannot read, then an E again. Klaude or something like that, such a name was among the patients or something like that.
Q Was that originally your hand-writing before the erasure?
A Could be, maybe yes.
Q Is it possible that was erased here in Nurnberg by your defense counsel?
A Well, you will have to ask my defense counsel himself. In any case, I did not erase it.
Q Does it seem strange to you that the name on chart A-2, written in your hand-writing, should be erased when later negligently the Chart on D-2 has the same name as the impression conveys on Chart A-2 has not been erased?
A Well, any way, it seems to me to speak with absolute certainty that the erasure was done for reasons of camouflage, you do not have to think my defense counsel is so stupid he would erase one and not the other. If he had done that, he would have done it more thoroughly.
Q Now, on chart D from there would you kindly spell the name you have written, the name you have written in your own handwriting?
A Klande or Klaude and it could be Klafde too. No, I believe it must be Klan or Klaude.
Q How do you spell that, Doctor?
A K-L-A and either a U or an N, I cannot say that, then a D - E.
Q Does Chart D-2 bear any recording thereon, or was it just an extra sheet that was not used?
A That was not used.
Q That was not used; then it is possible in studying the case of the second subject that the fourth sheet, namely D-2 or mark D-2, could have been overlooked by the person who erased the name on A-2?
A Yes, I already saw that. In case 1, it seems to have been as follows: namely, that these curves had been prepared then and someone forgot they had been prepared already and new ones were started. I contend that possibility or probability.
Q At any time has your defense counsel consulted with you concerning possible alterations on those charts?
A I do not understand your question.
Q At any time has your defense counsel consulted with you concerning alterations on these charts?
A We were in agreement at all times that the charts and the curves shall be submitted in the same way as we received them here.
Q But, this chart has been erased. Doctor, was that in the same condition as those found in your trunks in Vienna?
A Yes, apparently in many cases I didn't erase it. I can't tell you anything more than that. I did not erase anything here, and, in any case, they were lying next to each other. It is possible, too, that it was erased at that time, I can't tell you any more now what happened. In any case, I myself did not erase it and certainly not with the intention to hide the name.
Q Did the defense counsel erase it, to your knowledge?
A I certainly don't believe that he did.
Q Do you exclude the possibility that he could have erased it?
A Well, the simplist thing would be - I meant to say that my defense counsel could best answer this question Himself.
Q Let's go to tHe next section of this case No. 2. Under the date 21 August on Chart A2, the eighth day of the experiment, we see in the third block an arrow running horizontally with a vertical line bisecting that arrow. Immediately thereunder appear the German words "Hunger D". What does the arrow and the words "Hunger D" indicate in that block?
A That means the same as in the other curve, and here I also see that my original opinion was correct after all. I stated at the time, you start with hunger and thirst, Therefore the arrow is there, because if the arrow had started before, I probably would not have drawn that arrow. I can't tell you anything else but that the experiment began in any case for the first group on August. That is visible from all the values. From the weights it is unequivocally noticeable that it must have been that way. Of course, I had the weight determined on that day in which the experiment began.
Q But now you have an inconsistency with your explanation of the arrow and the blue circle, thereon in case No. 1, in that here on Chart B2 you have just stated that you said the experiment was to start on the 22nd, but you have an arrow under the date of the 23rd with a blue circle thereunder indicating the experiment began on the 23rd.
Now, did you erroneously place that arrow in the date of the 23rd?
A Yes, presumably at that time I made the marking and it is possible that I was somewhat superficial. I didn't do that, after all, because I believed that at any time it would, be submitted; but you can see that the weights show Quite clearly that the experiment began on the 22nd. On Case 1 the arrow was on the 21st and the fever curves I believe it must have been on the 22nd, I can't explain to you any more.
Mr. President, please look at the weights. From the weights alone....
MR. HARDY: If defense counsel has an objection, Your Honor, he may raise it. I will proceed with my cross examination.
Q. If that arrow with the blue circle at the end thereof under the 23rd of August was made to indicate the beginning of the experiment, can you explain what the arrow with the blue circle thereunder under the date of the 22nd of August indicated?
A I made those arrows at the time when I copied the weights when I evaluated this experiment.
Q You slipped up making this entry of the arrow under the 23rd and put in the wrong date, didn't you?
A Well, in any case, that was done erroneously. Yes, it can't be any other way.
Q And did you put that red arrow with the blue mark on the end thereof, blue circle of the end thereof, on this chart at the time of the experiment in August 1944 at Dachau?