Q But in no event was the view obstructed on the Block Strasse. That wasn't covered with a roof, was it?
A That I can't tell you for sure on this Block Street, I think it was open to the sky.
Q This is a good breaking point, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 0930 o'clock tomorrow morning.
Official transcript of the American MilitaryTribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 11 June 1947, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.
Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court room.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if the defendants are all present in court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all the defendants are present in the court room.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in Court.
For the information of all concerned the Tribunal desires to announce that this afternoon it will convene at 1:30 o'clock at the usual time and will recess at 3 o'clock, this afternoon.
Counsel may proceed.
DR. BEIGLBOECK - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION - (Continued) BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Professor Beiglboeck, in the testimony of Vieweg before this Tribunal he elicited that he saw three stretchers leaving your experimental station carrying bodies to the morgue. Do you recall that testimony?
A. Yes.
Q. Now on page 23 of your Document Book No. I. Beiglboeck exhibit 19, we see therein a letter addressed to your mother and father-in-law.
A. Parents-in-law, yes.
Q. The third paragraph, the last sentence - would you kindly read that, please?
A. "My feelings are those of Pontius in scredo only it mattered less to him than to me."
Q. Who is Pontius?
A. The phrase "Pontius in scredo Kommen" is a German phrase, meaning that you find yourself involved in some action without knowing how you got yourself into that position. What I waited to say was that I found myself obliged to carry out this assignment without doing anything to achieve this. So, quite unexpectedly and against my will, I found myself involved in an action that I didn't wish to pursue. This is a German proverb.
Q. This Pontius here has no connection in Biblical history to Pontius who was responsible for the conviction of three persons?
A. No. When you say Pontius it means he reached this position in which he found himself and he didn't want to do it. Also, let me add that Pontius Pilot did not have anything to do with the crucifixion of three people, the two thieves were crucified, without Pontius playing any part.
Q. Well, then, did three people actually die in your experiments that you really didn't want to happen?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, in my experiments nobody died, not one person and not three persons.
Q. Now, will you kindly tell us, Dr. Beiglboeck whether or not you would have published the results obtained in your experiments at Dachau in a Medical Journal?
A. If these results had been perfectly unexceptionable from a scientific point of view then I should have. As I already said, I had no particular scientific ambitions connected with these experiments and I have told you, I was glad when they were concluded and did not expect to receive any particular praise from them.
Q. Since you have been here in Nurnberg you have prepared several reports on the experiments based on records that you had in your possession and from your memory of the actual work conducted at Dachau. I am going to pass up a photostatic copy of one of the reports prepared by you for identification.
Will you tell me when you wrote that report?
A. I wrote this report after my first interrogation, writing it from memory without documentation.
Q. Now, will you turn to the last page, Doctor, of that report? On the last page we find, 8 lines up from the bottom, the following words "in exceptional cases also by means of administering water by a stomach sound". Do you find those words, Doctor?
A. Yes, I have it.
Q. Well now, in these experiments, is that an actual condition that existed as you have written in this report?
A. I drew up this report from memory at that time and I was able to remember what I had put into my concluding report and I remembered those cases of the subjects who had carried out the experimental series in an orderly way. There are some inaccuracies here because I had not concerned myself with this matter for two years and I put down everything in this report from memory. Consequently I can't swear that everything in it is correct. Some small details may be inaccurate, that I admit, but what I have reported here does, by and large correspond with that actually happened. I carried out examinations with a stomach sound for purely external reasons. I wanted to know whether sodium chloride could be eliminated by gastric fluids and, consequently, after the experiments were over I took this occasion to introduce water directly into the stomach without dextrose.
Q. Then that is your explanation for the necessity to give water by stomach sounds?
A. There was no necessity. I could have let them drink it. I had the stomach sound used so I could examine the gastric fluids because literature proves that after the consumption of sea-water there is an increased secretion of gastric fluid, and in order to check on that I used the stomach sound in, I think, five cases, and I did this because I happened to have the stomach sound lying right around at the time.
Q. Well, didn't that cause the subject considerable distress without any due cause inasmuch as the particular activity was unnecessary?
A. Sounding the stomach doesn't cause unpleasantness to anyone. It is a method that is used every day at least twenty times in the clinic.
The moment in which the stomach sound is introduced is perhaps a little unpleasant, but once it's in you can walk around with it in wothout its bothering you. It's one of the most harmless methods of examination that internal medicine can give witness to.
Q. It has always been my experience, in witnessing, that a patient is much disturbed by the insertion of the stomach tube. Could it have been that this subject was unable to drink the water because of unconsciousness?
A. In my experiments no subjects became unconscious, and if I had a person who was unconscious then, of course, I shouldn't have put a stomach sound into him but should have chosen the much simpler method of giving him the fluid through a vein, because this is quicker. The intravenous injection of fluid brings about a more rapid thinning-out of the blood and this quenches the thirst, because thirst is nothing more than a consequence of the thickness of the body's blood. Now, you can see that there was no reason at all to introduce a stomach into a person even if he had been unconscious since the other way would have been much quicker.
Q. What patients did you give this water by sound to?
A. This was certainly in the second experimental series, one of the patients between 32 and 44, because, in the first group, I had no time to put in stomach sounds because taking care of the patients in other ways took op too much time.
Q. At the final meeting in Berlin in the Zoological Garden in October, 1944, did you report on the experiments as they actually were conducted or did you attempt to camouflage some of the results?
A. I concealed nothing. I described how the state of thirst developed, what the effects of sea-water are. I did this at rather great length and I particularly pointed out that the cases that had used Berkatit were no better than those who had drunk straight seawater, and I particularly emphasized the effectiveness of the Schaefer method in order to point up the contrast between the two groups and to break down the last of the opposition to use the Schaefer rather than the Berka method.
Q. Was Schaefer particularly alarmed when he discovered that you had used his method at Dachau?
A. I am not informed as to the spiritual life of Dr. Schaefer.
Q. Well, Schaefer was at the meeting, wasn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. You were there, weren't you? You reported?
A. Yes.
Q. What did Schaefer say when he found out you used his method at Dachau?
A. As far as I know, he didn't say anything.
Q. Was it your understanding that Schaefer knew you were to use his method at Dachau?
A. I didn't assume anything about this. I have already told you that Becker-Freyseng told me that instead of a control group, with fresh water, we would have a control group with desalinated water, I do not know whether Schaefer before or during or after the experiments found out that his method was used. I can only repeat what he testified to here, namely that before the report he knew nothing about it. I had never spoken with Svhaefer previously. I saw him for the first time at this conference, and do not know what he knew about it before.
Q. Would you kindly tell the Tribunal, Dr. Beiglboeck, just what records Professor Vollhardt studied in order to familiarize himself with this subject so that he was in a position to testify as an export before this Tribunal?
A. Professor Wollhardt saw my fever graphs which you now have.
Q. That is this group of graphs?
A. That's right. I extracted the important data from here and drew them up in a table and he looked at this table and checked on my results from it.
Q. Did you give him any other material?
A. In addition, I only told him that the salt concentration in the urine rose. For this I had no original documentation, but I told him that from memory and I also told him what anybody night expect, namely, that the blood became thicker.
Q. What other records do you have in your possession besides these graphs and these two books? Do you have any other records?
A. No.
Q Does defense counsel have any other records?
A. As far as I know, no.
Q. At any time, did either one of these books have a black cover?
A. Yes.
Q. Which one?
A. The one in your left hand.
Q. Can you tell me what happened to the cover of this book?
A. My counsel probably had it.
Q. Were the names of the subjects used in the experiments written in this book?
A. Yes.
Q. In the first two pages, I presume?
A. I think it was on the cover.
Q. Will you kindly look at the book to see if they are still there?
A. I don't have to look at it. I can see they are not there right away because the names were on the cover.
JUDGE SEGRING: Mr. Hardy, if this matter becomes important before the Tribunal I would suggest that, for the sake of the record, you put some identifying mark on this book.
MR. HARDY: I intend to, Your Honor, but first I want to find out where this evidence came from.
I intend to mark it for identification later.
JUDGE SEBRING: It seems difficult to look at a cold record.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I would like to mark it later. The defense counsel nay want to use it himself and may want to mark it with a defense number. I'll have to discuss it with him.
DR. STEINBAUER: I should like to say that these documents are some which I gave to the prosecution only for its information. I should like to have them back. I have not put them in evidence, and I still have to decide whether I intend to. At any rate, I can say that Professors Vollhardt did not see those two booklets. I showed them to Professors Alexander and Ivy and Mr. Hardy. I must object to their being used as incriminating evidence against my client so long as they have not been put to the Tribunal.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor, inasmuch as defense counsel has asked for the return of the documents that he has presented to the prosecution for study, the prosecution duly requests that these documents be impounded by the Tribunal, be made records by the Tribunal, for use by either the prosecution or the defense. These documents purport to be original records made at Dachau during the course of the experiment. They are fitting absolutely into the proper evidence rule. They are not affidavits or hearsay. They are actual conditions at Dachau and recorded by the defendant himself. In many instances, these documents have been altered. The alterations may have been made at Dachau, they may have been made later. In view of the fa.ct that they have been altered, the prosecution thinks it necessary that they be impounded by the Tribunal and if study of them is required by either defense or prosecution that study should be done before a commissioner. At this time, I wish to use the documents for the our pose of cross-examination. These documents were presented to Professor Vollhardt by the defense. Professor Vollhardt came here and testified as an expert for the defense.
His testimony was based solely on those charts. Due to that fact, I intend to use these charts today in crossexamination of the defendant Beiglboeck. In order to do the same, I would request the Tribunal to move from the bench down to the first defense counsel bench. We will have three microphones sent in. Defense counsel for Beiglboeck nay sit beside the defendant and I will cross examine on the documents this morning. Inasmuch as the documents a.re not constructed so that they may be reproduced because of pencil notations, blue marks, red marks, ets., such a round table discussion of the Tribunal and the defendant and counsel will be necessary. I request that I be allowed to proceed, and if defense counsel requests the documents be returned to him the prosecution petitions the Tribunal to have then impounded.
DR. STEINBAUER: Your Honor, I myself intend to offer these documents to the Tribunal, so there was no reason to impound them. I simply wanted to offer them at the correct moment, and I have left them with the Prosecutor all this time. As I say, there is no reason to impound them. I want to repeat: Professor Volhard did not see these two booklets, particularly the one that had the black cover. If Mr. Hardy doesn't believe it I can produce three or four witnesses to prove it. I don't think that is necessary. I am making them available.
MR. HARDY: If I could be allowed to cross-examine the defendants using the documents, then at the completion of the cross--examination would be the time for the Tribunal to determine if they would impound the records. I can point out alterations in the documents, which I think have been made since the trials started. In view of that fact the original documents are altered. I do not contend the alterations were made by defense counsel, but inasmuch as they have been altered it is necessary that they be impounded so further alterations will not be made.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now take the documents in its custody. They will be in the possession of the Tribunal from now on. They may be used for cross-examination, and under reasonable circumstances they will be subject to examination by either counsel under such rules as the Tribunal shall later announce. But from now on they are in the custody of the Tribunal until further order.
DR. STEINBAUER: It is perfectly agreeable to me. I simply want to say again that these two little booklets were never in the hands of Professor Volhard. Consequently, he didn't use them as a. basis for his testimony.
MR. HARDY: Now that the problem is brought up I would like to put two or three questions to the defendant concerning these records.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Can you tell us, Dr. Beiglboeck just where these records have been for the past two years. After you left Dachau in September of 1944 did you take these records with you to Vienna?
A I took them with me and had them with me in Tarvisio until roughly the end of April 1945; then I put them in a trunk in which I had my books and other papers and gave this trunk to a family to keep for me, and it is from there they were fetched.
Q Who fetched them from that trunk?
A My counsel.
Q Did your counsel bring them here to Nurnberg?
A Yes.
Q Did you see them after they arrived in Nurnberg?
A I paged through them once.
Q And they have been in possession of your counsel since that time?
A Yes.
Q Now, are these the only records that your counsel brought to you from that trunk, that is these charts and these two books?
A Only the graphs and charts came from the trunk. I already had the two little booklets with me at Christmas. My counsel brought me the charts at Easter and the booklets at Christmas. The little books were not in the trunk.
Q Did you have any other records here in Nurnberg?
A Nothing else.
Q These are the only records?
A Yes.
Q Is the information in this booklet, the one which the black cover has been removed from, based on the charts and graphs?
A The two things were carried on side by side. The one is the laboratory book used in the experimental station, and the other booklet, the grey one, was in the laboratory in the Entomological Institute where the chemical analysis was carried out, namely the examination of the nitrogen. The fever charts were made during the experiments.
Q Could an analysis be reached as to your experiments by referring to the graphs and charts without reference to these two booklets?
A The most important aspect of these experiments was the change in weight, that is the decisive factor. From that alone the experiments can be evaluated. Moreover, in the fever charts there are descriptions of a few other things, so that for the specialist they present a pretty clear picture.
MR. HARDY: At this time if the Tribunal could adjourn for a period 10 minutes, I will have the table made up so we can examine these records, and I can continue my cross-examination from this first of the Tribunal, defense counsel bench, if that meets the approval of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: You have no further cross-examination that will take up the time to the time of recess?
MR. HARDY: No, Your Honor. We are going to proceed to the charts now. It will take a matter of 5 to 10 minutes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. The Tribunal will be in recess.
(Thereupon a recess was taken.)
(following recess)
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Beiglboeck will step down from the stand and take a seat at this table.
MR. HARDY: At this time I would like to take up with the defendant the chart of these individual experiments. These charts, Your Honor, are in a series. We will note that the first experimental subjects have four charts, which run continuously. At the top of each chart the number one appears. For convenience, I will request permission of the Tribunal to number the first page with the No. 1 as A--1 and mark thereon the letter A; on the second chart, pertaining to the first subject, the No. B-1 on the third chart the number C-1, and on the fourth chart the number D-1, so we may properly refer to each one of the four charts referring to the first subjects, if it please the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: We will note for the record that the marks now on the charts, on the first three, are made with a red pencil.
MR. HARDY: The fourth chart, Your Honor, does not have the red pencil No. 1, you can see it has No.1.
THE PRESIDENT: It will be noted for the record that the fourth chart has been marked for the Tribunal as D-1 in black pencil.
MR. HARDY: Now, in order to clearly understand these charts, I am going to ask Professor Beiglboeck to explain some of them, marking thereon the name which appears on the top left-hand corner. In this case, No. 1, could you tell us, Professor Beiglboeck, what this name is and who does it refer to?
THE WITNESS: That is the name of the experimental subject.
MR. HARDY: That name on that chart ......
THE PRESIDENT: Please repeat.
MR. HARDY: What is the name, please?
THE PRESIDENT: Tell him to spell it.
MR. HARDY: Kindly spell the name.
THE WITNESS: F-R-A-N-Z.
MR. HARDY: Now on the first line under the heading of the chart there appears this word, would you kindly tell us what that line is, the first mark?
THE PRESIDENT: I would suggest that you designate it as the first horizontal block running from left to right on the page.
MR. HARDY: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment; are you getting the English? One of the judges is not receiving the English translation.
THY INTERPRETER: It must be in the switch, Your Honor.
MR. HARDY: Now, Professor Beiglboeck .....
DR. STEINBAUER: Can I tell you something quite general for your information and the prosecutor my resume again at once. First of all, this means the loss of weight, the duration of the experiment, the body temperature pulse, and the stool and amount of urine eliminated. All these matters can be seen on the charts for every experimental subject. The most important thing is the loss of weight. On the basis of these charts, Beiglboeck calculated this very exactly in the prison and let me also say for your information that the tables of weights arc the most important part; they are the key to everything. The most important thing again is the loss of weight. I should like later, when I got to them, to give an exhibit number to these documents and I should like to give them to you now, I have had a photostatic copy of each one made and when I continue with my case I shall come to these again. So far, however, I have not put them in evidence, as that was not heretofore necessary before the documents were impounded, but I have no objection to there being looked at most exactly now. Please accept these tables now so that you may also check on the loss of weight. It was for this reason that Beiglboeck has them here in court. Then I can also tell you what those other two booklets are about. Mr. Hardy, please get the black booklet.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you explain what the books are.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I object to the introduction of those charts at this time. If defense counsel sees fit to present them in redirect examination I will object. I do not see during cross-examination how these charts can be introduced. Those charts which wore prepared after the defendant was incarcerated would not be in much force and effect here.
THE PRESIDENT: Unless these charts will be of assistance to the Tribunal now, it is suggested they be offered later. I will ask the defendant witness if he confirms the explanation of these charts which was made by his counsel.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Has counsel correctly explained these charts?
A. In the first line here is the date: On the second line, the days on which the subject was observed. Here in the third line there is the record of the weight and, if I remember correctly, it is also set down below in some cases. Here is the subject's height. The blue is the temperature. The red is the pulse. Here is the record of the person's solid elimination. Here is the blood pressure, and then these are notes which were copied from the other booklet regarding the blood examination.
Q. Is there any record on this sheet which you have just described to the Tribunal of the change of weight of the experimental subject?
A. Here -- 63.5, 64,64.5. On the 22nd -
Q. That is on the third line from the top.
A. Yes. This is curve "B." Here is the weight: 64.7. Now, the experiment begins here and now here you see the loss of weight. This is a subject from the hungering and thirsting group. You can see that he loses weight very rapidly, goes from 64.7 down to 62.2; then 59, 58, down to 57.5. Here the experiment is interrupted at 7:00 p.m. Then the next days he weighed 57.5 and 58.2 58,6 and 62,61,61. Then at the conclusion the man was weighed again. This is on the 12th of September.
That is where the curves were concluded. That was the weight when he was released. Let me point out also that this writing here -
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, for the systematic method of examination of these records -- and I think it would be more clear to the Tribunal-to avoid repetition I would like to direct my questions on each point on each chart and then the defendant can explain it at that time and have some sequence of continuity.
THE PRESIDENT: As it is suggested, counsel may now proceed.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Professor Reiglboeck, the first horizontal line running left to right across the chart is the calendar date line is it not?
A. Yes.
Q. The second horizontal line is the day of each experiment - that is, the number of days under which the subject is being subjected to an experiment. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. The third horizontal line contains on the top of that particular line the weight of the patient on each day. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Immediately under the weight of the patient on the third horizontal line it contains the height and other miscellaneous data. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Now, at the middle of the page we see, running left to right, a blunt black line. That is the line denoting the temperature curve -that is, any blue line marked under the blunt black line indicates normal temperature and any blue line marked above the black line indicates temperature above normal. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Immediately under the black blunt line, in the middle of the page, we find blue marks running left to right in an irregular manner. Do those indicate the temperature of the patient or subject?
A. The red line?
Q. Blue line.
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Under the blue line in the portion of the chart directly under the black blunt line appears a red line running irregularly from left to right. That indicates the pulse rate of the subject, does it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, after the graph section of the chart there runs a block which we will consider the first line of blocks under the graph section of the chart. This first line running left to Tight under the graph section of the chart indicates the stool, does it not?
A. That is right.
Q. The second lino under the graph section of the chart indicates -I am unable to determine that. Could you tell us what that line. indicates -- the second line under the graph section of the chart?
A. That is entitled "Vomit." let mo say that these fever charts are the regular charts used in the German army. They are already printed charts that are generally used in German army hospitals. That line I just mentioned is entitled "Vomiting."
Q And, the third line under the graph section of the chart indicates what?
A Body weight.
Q The fourth line indicates the Blood pressure, does it not; that is the fourth line under the graph section of the chart?
A Blood pressure, yes.
Q And, then the large blockes, that is the fifth section under the graph section of the chart, are used for what purpose?
A The results of blood examination were occasionally entered there, and various other notes.
Q Now, on the chart B-1, in the graph section of the chart under the Blunt Black line, appear red vertical lines; is the red vertical line which appears in the graph section of the chart, under the black Blunt line, the indication of urinary output or excretion?
A Yes.
Q Is the Blue vertical marking under the Black Blunt line an indication of the intake, that is, the water a person drinks?
A Yes, more or less. It strikes me here -- let me say that perhaps the amounts are not exact here. Later on it was not checked exactly on just how much they did consume.
MR. HARDY: May I request, your Honors, to look at this first series of charts, and if you have any further question concerning the marks thereon, we will clear that point up Before we proceed to analyze the charts.
THE PRESIDENT: I will ask the witness how many days the charts indicate that the subject was experimented on.
MR. HARDY: If your Honor, pleases, I intend to analyze that in taking care of each chart.
THE PRESIDENT: Well.
Q In connection with the last examination of the defendant, he stated that these vertical marks and. red marks appearing below the Black Blunt line, in the middle of the page, do not contend to be accurate; is that correct?
Is that what you intended to imply?
A I said that in the latter part of the experiments, the amount of fluid was not strictly controlled. It did not make any difference to me, for instance, whether on 1 September there was a consumption of 2000 or 3000 cc. If he drank on the side, for instance, here, that would not appear in the chart.
Q Can you tell the Tribunal in the scientific marking of charts, how you indicate that the vertical line, such as appears in chart C-1 is not to be construed as an accurate one? Is there a difference in the method of marking in that? The blue vertical line on chart C-1, is there a difference in the method of marking in that if it is to be considered an accurate figure, the marking is perfectly blunt at the end, that is running level, and if it is to be construed as inaccurate or merely an estimate the line has a fringed edge or an irregular edge?
A These lines were drawn by the medical students or by the medics, and what they locked like depended on how they drew them. I am not exactly informed on this. The only thing important to me was to know how the amount of urine set down. Moreover, this graphics representation of the urine elimination is not so important because we measured the amount of urine eliminated separately and entered it separately. The medical students who measured the urine entered that every time in the booklet, and then went to the chart, if he did so at all, and put the marks in it hastily as we see here. I cannot guarantee that the line is correct to the millimeter. The real data on the urine amount is to be found in the booklet, and this is simply something that was more or less accurately or inaccurately transferred to the graphs.
Q Is it customary in scientific research experiment on human beings and keep haphazard reports or is it customary to keep scientific accurately reports, so you can properly report about the results of your work?