At least the technical office will then have the proof that Schaefer water is drinkable.
Q. Did you consider this whole program to be superfluous work?
A. I considered it superfluous if one has a good method to quarrel for months about introducing a less effective method. I considered it superfluous to built a laboratory from the scratch in 1944 while on one hand a laboratory already, but it seemed to me worth determining whether better results could be given by sea water than by going without sea water. This question was not solved then. At the same time we worked on it and when I was forced to work on it was an urgent problem elsewhere and was solved and better than I did.
Q. Will you tell us why the program was classified secret?
A. I believe I can tell you that. I can't tell you with certainty, but I think it was important the program was secret. Moreover in Germany at this time there was very little that was not secret.
Q. It was classified top secret, wasn't it?
A. I believe it was secret, but I can't say for sure.
Q. Was it customary in the Luftwaffe for an officer working on a secret matter to communicate the secret mater to persons not engaged in that same work?
A. No not as far as the secrecy was concerned. I didn't tell anybody what the Schaefer process was. I didn't know. I don't know today. It was not secret that we were investigating it. Nobody told me it was secret.
Q. You mean it wasn't secret you were working at Dachau on this work at Dachau?
A. Not in no way. At least I was not given any such instructions.
Q. You thought that you could freely communicate to Jaeger or anyone else that you were going to experiment on human beings at Dachau to test the efficacy of two sea wacer methods?
A. I was convinced of it.
Q. Well, I note in Exhibit 7, Biegelbock Exhibit No. 7, which is page 26 of the Document book I, Which is a letter to Dr. Steinbauer from Dr. Spiess, in the second paragraph the last two sentences states as follows: Upon my remark that these experiments surely were Wehrmacht experiments and therefore secret, they were not intended for everyone else. Professor Dr. Eppinger replied, "One could frankly speak about them as no case of death had occurred with the sea water experiments, and also that no experimental person had suffered any serious consequences during the experiment, so that there was no reason to make a secret of it." Isn't it evident from that passage it was necessary to keep the entire program a secret prior to the execution thereof, and the documents here in evidence are classified secret, not the methods?
A. Whether this undertaking was classified secret or not or what degree of secrecy it was given, I can't tell you, I am not an expert on that subject. In my Wehrmacht service I did mostly medical work and my service was administrative, and I am not familiar with the other side of it. If Dr. Spiess told Eppinger it was a Wehrmacht matter that possibly meant that Wehrmacht matters were on general principle kept secret, but they were not treated as secret as is shown by the fact that Eppinger who was an officer himself talked, about it.
Anyway Eppinger was a Lt. Colonel or something like it, and he didn't see any reason for making a secret of it. He talked about it everywhere. That is probably the reason. One didn't talk about Wehrmacht matters. It was not customary. If one knew there was a new weapon or something, one didn't go around and tell everyone how it was constructed. All the Wehrmacht matters were clothed with a certain secrecy. That was probably the assumption of Dr. Spiess when she asked him about it. The wording, by the way, isn't very much to the point.
Q. Now prior to the time you proceeded to Dachau to start your experimental program you stated on direct examination you remained in Berlin and stayed a couple of weeks; while in Berlin did you have an opportunity to confer with Schaefer?
A. No.
Q. Did you contact Schaefer?
A. No.
Q. Did you talk to Berka?
A. I got in touch with Berka later for a very minor reason. It was that we had certain equipment, test tubes, etc. from his laboratory in Vienna which we had borrowed.
Q. Would you repeat that answer again. I don't think I understood you correctly?
A. I said my connection with Berka or rather the fact that I got in touch with Berka had a very minor reason which was that I had borrowed equipment from Berka's laboratory.
Q. Then you didn't have any extensive consultations with either Berka or Schaefer prior to your actual experiments? 8836
A. Not orally, no, but Sirany's experiments on the one hand and Schaefer's experiments on the other hand I had reported on. It was originally intended I would not get in touch with either or do nothing in order not to endanger the objectivity of the experiments.
Q. What was that again?
A. It was intended that I would not get in touch with either of them in order to not endanger my objectivity, so that I would not be influenced either against or for either of the methods.
Q Well, was this a competition between the Schaefer and Berka method and you were the judge?
A I was not the judge. I was the one who had the misfortune to be ordered to carry out experiments which were decided upon at the meeting of 25 May by various civilian and military celebrities, but Berka obviously had the feeling that there was some rivalry. I believe that was the psychological reason why this was demanded.
Q Well, then if you would have consulted with Schaefer and Berka would that have effected the objectivity of the experiment?
A I did not talk to Schaefer, I did not consult with Berka either. When I got these things from Berka from his laboratory, I did talk to him, but I did not get any advise from him. I just happened to be there and what influence that had on the outcome of the experiment, I cannot say.
Q Well is it true that perhaps Berka had more political influence than Schaefer?
A I know nothing about any political influence of Berka. I believe he was originally a Social Democrat.
Q I don't mean his party affiliations, I mean his particular influence with the people who were to determine whether or not the Berk? method was to be installed or whether or not the Schaefer method was to be installed; did it appear to you from your discussion with Becker-Freyseng in connection with the experiments, that Berka had the most influence?
A I am convinced that the technical office was behind Berka. Berka was a technical man himself and belonged to the technical office. The technical office made Berka's cause its own and I believe that Berka had quite considerable influence with the important men in the technical office. At least that was my assumption, that was the impression I had.
Q Would Becker-Freyseng have been medically qualified to have conducted these experiments?
A You are asking the wrong person, but I imagine so.
Q Would Professor Eppinger have been medically qualified to perform these experiments?
A Yes, I am convinced that he would, have.
Q Then, Schaefer?
A I am informed about Mr. Schaefer's training only more or less from what I heard here. As far as I know, he was primarily a laboratory worker, a medical chemist.
Q Could Berka have conducted the experiments?
A Berka was an Engineer, a technical chemist. I don't believe that experiments can be placed in the hands of a technical chemist.
Q Then, this question could not have been determined unless you had been employed to determine it; is that correct?
A If you mean that I was the only person in the world who could have decided this question, then no. I must say there could have been twenty, thirty or more internists in Germany who would have been able to carry out these experiments. That I just happened to have the misfortune, was a unfortunate coincidence.
Q Did you ever experiment on human beings prior to your experiments with sea-water at the Dachau concentration camp?
A I must ask you what you mean by experiments on human beings. Of course, we had quite a number of metabolism tests which we carried out at the clinic.
Q I think you are better qualified to determine what an experiment on human beings is than I. Did you ever carry out experiments on human beings before in the sense we are discussing them before the Tribunal; that is what I mean?
A That is why I asked you to tell me what you meant by human experiments. I never performed, a dangerous experiment on a human being, including the sea-water experiments.
Q Well did you ever perform any experiments on human beings prior to the sea-water experiments at Dachau?
A I have already said that at the clinic I performed a number of metabolism experiments, if you can call them experiments. For example we were interested in how Vitamin B effects the elimination of table salt or potassium salt in the stomach or what the medical influence is to Vitamin so and so, that is the kind of tests we made at the clinic and I performed a number of such tests.
Q Were the experimental subjects used volunteers?
A Yes, of course.
Q Did you have to follow any particular procedure to secure those volunteers?
AAt the clinic?
Q Yes.
A The procedure was that I asked, do you want to help? We are interested in finding out certain things if we give an artificial injection or this drug, we want to find out about table salt research. We don't have to go into detail, you will have to keep on a certain diet. Every day you will get a certain injection and we will take the urine and blood samples.
Then the person would say yes or no. If he said yes, then it was done. If he said, no, I did not continue and did not do it, I merely went to the next men who said yes.
Q Who are the people you refer to; do you mean the clinical employees or were they outsiders?
A Some of them were the employees of the clinic, or doctors or medical, students. Some of them were therapeutical experiments, for example, we could not decide whether the theoretical effect on a heart patient was similar to the effects we received by testing it on a healthy person and similar tests must be made on patients to see if with certain diseases that is true and effective.
Q Did you get their consent in writing?
A No.
Q Was it necessary to determine the age of a person before you used them in such an experiment?
A Yes, of course.
Q How old did they have to be?
A It was not necessary to know the date of birth, but it was important to know if the person was twenty or eighty.
Q Well, did you have to know whether or not the person was over the age of twenty-one?
A On the whole, we had only people over twenty-one at the clinic.
Q Could you have used a person under twenty-one years of age if they volunteered?
A That I consider as certain.
Q A person under twenty one years of age is considered to be a minor in Germany; or they not?
A Yes that may be, but for example I know well that such tests are performed in children's clinics too.
Q It is necessary, if a person is a minor, to get written permission of the parents or guardians; is it not under the German law?
A That is a legal question and I cannot answer it. In the tests we performed at the clinic, we never got any written permission from an eighteen year old, whether it was a stomach tumor which was to be given a new treatment. We did not discuss whether written permission was received from the parents or guardians.
Q Was there ever certain operations which cannot be performed in German medicine unless you have written permission; this is not a legal problem but a legal medical problem which every doctor is familiar with; is it not?
A Yes, when performing such major operations, every surgeon gets the statement of consent and he has it signed.
Q I see. Well, suppose, the person is under twenty-one years of age and a major operation must be performed; who signs the permission, the parents do they not?
A It is possible, yes.
Q Well, don't you know, Doctor?
A I am not a surgeon.
Q Suppose you had some particular function to carry out which required the consent of the subject and the subject was under twentyone years of age; would you carry out the duty of a physician without having first received the consent of the parents or would you merely accept the consent of a child?
A This question never confronted me, because in the hospitals in Vienna when the patient was admitted such questions were discussed with the parents or with the patient and settled. I would like to grant you that in general practice if one was to take any measures to which this law applies, then you would have to ask the parents if it is a minor.
Q Then, you never bothered considering the problem of consent of a person under twenty-one years of age during your entire career as a medical man; is that correct, until today?
AAt the moment somebody was admitted to the clinic, he signed his consent.
Q That is a child will come in and sign his consent or will a parent accompany the child and sign their consent?
A Then the parents signed.
Q This is a good breaking point, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess, until one thirty o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 10 June 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. WILHELM BEIGLBOECK - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HARDY:
Q Professor Beiglboeck, regarding the subject, volunteers to be used in medical experiments, what is your opinion about the ability of a layman to volunteer for medical experiments?
AA layman who is informed what will take place during the experiments is, of course, in my opinion, perfectly capable of voluntarily deciding whether he wants to participate in that experiment or not.
Q Then do you feel that first of all the field of research must be exhaustively studied, experimentation on animals must he exploited to the fullest extent prior to resorting to experimentation on human beings?
A I am of the opinion that when animal experimentation is useful every human being experiment must be preceded by experiments on animals.
Q And the experimental subjects must be warned of the hazards of the experiments, if any?
A Yes.
Q What is your opinion regarding the ability of a person incarcerated in a concentration camp to volunteer for a medical experiment?
AAs I have already indicated in my direct examination, it is my opinion that every prisoner is, to a certain extent, limited in his freedom; but, within the framework of this limitation of his freedom, he can, of course, answer the question yes or may whether or not he wants to participate in that experiment, presupposing, of course, that an answer in the negative would not lay open to any sort of reprisals.
Q What type prisoner in a concentration camp do you deem fit to volunteer for medical experiments, meaning by that using the word "Volunteer" in the true sense of the word.
A With the limitation that I have just stated for the prisoner, I consider that any type of prisoner can decided "yes" or no in such a question.
Q These prisoners or gypies used in the sea water experiment, can you tell us in what manner they were selected for the sea water experiments?
A So far as I heard regarding this from them, they were asked whether they wished to apply for experiments in Dachau and then from the top or some large group of them there the number in question did apply.
Q Did you participate in the actual selection of the gypies used?
A No. Regarding this I can only give you details about the gypies who volunteered from the concentration camp at Dachau.
Q Did you consider the selection of the gypies to be used a matter for the SS?
A Yes.
Q And you had received a direct order not to mingle in SS matters?
A I received the order or the instructions not to interfere in matters that concerned the concentration camp. I was assured that it had been agreed with the SS that only volunteers were to be used for the experiments and the SS had to carry out the selection of them within the framework of its duties because, of course, the Luftwaffe, as far as I myself personally had any influence or power to issue complaints to the concentration camp, I think that has to be emphasized again and again -- namely, that the situation were not the same as they are in any free community. On the one hand there was the Wehrmacht, on the other hand the SS; and the affairs of the concentration camp concerned the SS solely and I could exercise no influence on them. I simply had to rely on what my superior officer told me or what I was told by the officers who were in charge of the affairs of the concentration camp.
Q Now, you say that you checked with Dr. Ploedner, the camp adjutant, and the Sturmbannfuehrer in charge of the transport as to the status of the gypsies. Is that right?
Q. Why did you make such on exhausted check?
A. Because I wished to be absolutely certain that they really were volunteers.
Q. Did you have some misgivings as to whether or not they were volunteers, and that was the reason why you questioned three persons in that regard?
A. I had no misgivings. I was told that volunteers were to be used for these experiments but, of course, I was interested in being absolutely certain on this subject.
Q. Well, now, were these Gypsies in these experiments full blooded or halfbreeds?
A. So far as I know, they were in the most part halfbreeds, but in this matter also, I have no specific or precise data, And, in conversations I did not concern myself too much with this matter because at that time it did not seen to me to be very important. I was simply told that these Gypsies; that was the assurance I received when I inquired into the matter of the insigna they were wearing.
Q. Were they rendered or judged social simply because they were Gypsies?
A. That, I cannot tell you in detail; I only can tell you what the SS officers told me about this: They told me explicitely they were not in custody because they were Gypsies but because they were asocial; most of those had already been previously sentenced. And, I asked them what their punishment had been, and the Gypsies said nothing really serious. So, I asked them what they had done and they said, well, nothing of importance. I had the impression that they did not like to be questioned about that.
Q. What tape of criminal offense must they have committed to be rendered asocial?
A. That, I do not know; but, I believe that for the most part, if I can judge what I read in the medical periodicals, they were called aso cial for family reasons.
Such asocial families were being checked in Germany at that time. Now, whether this was the reason for taking them into custody, or whether that gave them a right to take them into custody, that I cannot tell you, I did not put them there. I saw no papers on them, and I know nothing about the previous convictions they had received. I simply was informed that they were held as asocial persons, and it was not important for me to carry out the sea water experiments on asocial persons. I did not have the impression that asocial persons were being specifically turned over for the experiments. I took them for the experiments simply because they were given to me by the SS, and I assured myself whether they were volunteers or not. If volunteers with another triangle on their arm had been turned over to me, I should have used them just as well. And, as I said, I did not concern myself at all with the question whether they were asocial.
Q. Now, Doctor, would a child be adjudged asocial if his father was classified as asocial?
A. It is not easy to answer that question. There are some families who have been investigated very carefully, and a large number of the members of such families belong in the category of asocial. The family Jucke, if I am pronouncing it correctly, is such a family; they received much attention as asocial family, when having been investigated by use of psychiatric and heriditary problems. Members of that family have distinguished themselves by being guilty of crimes and other asocial actions. This does not exclude the possibility that, in this family, there can be a large number of persons who did not commit any crimes. Nevertheless, the family is declared asocial. Now, if there are children from a family in which, let us say among 100 members an estimate of 70 are characterized by a criminal life, then that whole family will be scientifically classified as asocial family. I do not know what the basis for giving the insigna was, namely, the insigna that classified people as asocial; that is, as I say, I do not know.
Q. Well, now, what did you actually say to each subject when there reported people to you for the experiments, did you talk to each one of them individually?
A. I called the experimental subjects together and told them what the experiment was about. I did not repeat this information to each one individually, because that would have taken a whole day; and, then I told them that they could think about whether or not they wanted to participate. I had been informed that some of the prisoners in Dachau wanted very much to participate, and if necessary, I should have made substitutions.
Q. Did you, in the course of your lecture to these 44 subjects, tell them what your experimental problem was to be, and what might be expected?
A. I could not tell them what was to be expected because I could not prophecy what the results would be; that was the whole purpose of the experiments.
Q. You mean it would be scientifically ethical to conduct an experiment on a human being without having any conclusive knowledge as to what the results may be?
A. What the possible results might be, that was more or less known, but if the precise results were known, that would make any experimentation superfluous. Before you enter upon an experiment, of course, you have a plan. You know what you are looking for, but you do not know what you are going to find when you are looking for it. I could tell my experimental subjects that I could guarantee to them that nothing would happen to them; that was the most important thing to the experimental subjects. Whether the concentration in the kidneys was going to be 2 or 3 percent, that was unimportant to the experimental subjects. And, that as I say, I am sure they did not want to know that.
Q. Did you warn them of any possible danger or hazard during the the course of the experiments?
A. I told them that they would feel severe thirst, and they would probably become nervous because every one who is thirsty becomes nervous. I told them moreover, that I would also be near them and protect them from any danger.
Q. Did you tell them that they could quit whenever they wished?
A. I told them you must put up with that thirst for a few days, I cannot tell you for how long exactly, and I told them that they would not have to thirst any longer than I could take the responsibility for. And, I told them if they simply could not stand it, they should tell me and I would take that into consideration. But, I did not tell them and I could not tell them that as soon as they felt thirsty they should just come and tell me and then we would give them water, because after all, this was a thirst experiment. And, I had to require of the experimental subjects that they should thirst for a certain period of time, that was the very nature of these experiments. I know that you are trying to make a charge out of this against me, and are trying to appraize the feeling of thirst in this way; thirst being one of the most uncomfortable feelings of all feelings, but that was the agreement I made with them--I told them that such and such and such and such for four or five days, I do not know how long that is going to be--you are to have to stand this thirst you feel.
Q. The discussion as to whether or not they would be relieved from the experiments or whether or not they could be relieved lied solely with you; is that right?
A. That decision lay with me, yes.
Q. What reward did you offer these experimental subjects?
A. I told them that afterwards they would be spared what they had previously been subjected to, and that they should come to me with their wishes, and I would do what I could. Moreover before and after the experiments, they would receive the extra rations; before they could rest for three weeks, and after the experiments for three weeks, and also I communicated any special wished of theirs to the camp commandant, and received his approval for many of these wishes.
Q. Well, did you offer them cigarettes in addition to that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they get them?
A. Certainly.
Q. Did you have a vast quantity of cigarettes on hand?
A. I got the cigarettes from the same place I got the food, the air field. And, I cannot tell you how many there were in toto, but it was several thousand cigarettes.
Q. Were you in a position to get all the cigarettes you needed within reason?
A. To the extent that the Mess Sergeant gave me the cigarettes; to that extent I could provide them.
Q. Well, then, why was it necessary for your mother-in-law and father-in-law to send you cigarettes?
A. Because I received the cigarettes from the Mess Sergeant not for myself, but for my experimental subjects; and my parents did not have to send me these cigarettes. They sent them to me; that sort of thing happens in the best of families.
Q. Did you check and absolutely make certain that each one of these subjects received, as his due reward, after having been subjected to the sea water experiments?
A. I distributed the cigarettes according to a certain arrangement: Those who had kept on with the experiment received the most cigarettes, and those who from the second day on kept on drinking fresh water did not get any cigarettes.
Q. Well, what other reward did they get beside the cigarettes?
A: I can only repeat that they applied on the condition that previous and thereafter they should receive better rations. After the experiments they were to be treated as convalescents and were not to work. They were promise mitigation of their detention. And, what I did on my own initiative was to supply the cigarettes and, also, I went personally to the camp commandant and told him that these persons had carried out the experiments in a good way and that they should be rewarded.
Q: Wouldn't it have been dangerous to have pardoned or to have commuted the sentence of a person adjudged asocial in Nazi thinking?
A: Only very few of the asocial persons are dangerous, namely those professional criminals who are guilty of violent crime. The others are not dangerous. I am thinking of asocial persons as I understand them in medical terms. Such people are those who are malingerers - who won't work. Such people are not dangerous, just useless. Pickpockets are asocial persons. They are somewhat dangerous, particularly for people whose pockets they pick. But they are not dangerous criminals in a criminal sense of the word.
Q: Then would, you say that each and every one of the forty-four experimental subjects used in your sea water experiments at Dachau were criminals and were a menace to society and hence deserved nothing but incarceration in a concentration camp, or do you feel that some of the inmates you used were falsely imprisoned?
A: I am convinced that a great majority, and perhaps all of them, were not dangerous. I am fully persuaded of that but I do not know why they were included in the category of asocials nor do I know why these asocials were in a concentration camp. I was not a friend of Himmlers nor did I belong in his office, nor did I have any power to interfere in the plans of Reich Minister Himmler. I was just a Luftwaffe officer who had received an order to carry out experiments and if I had gone to Himmler and told him, "Reich Minister, you are keeping these gypsies here unjustly, I consider that a crime". I would have been shot, killed, or at best locked up in an insane asylum.
Q: When did you arrive at Dachau, at the concentration cargo, the date? You must remember that in as much as in letters to your mother-inlaw and father-in-law you explained this as the most unfortunate incident in your career. Now, surely you can remember the date you arrived at Dachau.
A: I estimate on the 18th. I can't ell you for sure but I think the 18th of July because very shortly thereafter, the next day or the day after, the conference took place with Sievers which I attended. Then I went to Vienna to get my laboratory equipment.
Q: When did you leave Dachau?
A: After the experiments you mean?
Q: Yes, when did you leave for good, and go back to Vienna?
A: 15 or 16, I believe the latter, of September.
Q: 15th or 16th of September?
A: Yes.
Q: What did your working day at the concentration camp consist of? What time did you arrive there in the morning?
A: 7 a.m.
Q: What time did you leave in the evening?
A: Usually at 8 I went to dinner. Then I returned and finished up my report. It was frequently 10 or 11 before I was done with them.
Q: Do you recall the nationality of each one of these subjects used, whether any of these gypsies were Czechoslovakians, Austrians, Germans, Hungarians, or Poles?
A: I have already told you this morning what I know about that.
Q: Do you know whether or not any of them were ether than of German nationality?
A: Regarding their citizenship I have no precise knowledge. I saw the papers of none of them.
Q: Well then you are not in a position to tell us whether or not they were Czechoslovakian citizens, Austrian citizens, Hungarians or Poles or whatever they may have been? You actually do not know, do you?