Q. You now have spoken about the condition between disease and the lack, now I ask you can such a condition of lack be observed so that an endangering of life or health is impossible?
A Certainly, and we also know from a 11 of those cases of sea distress who were rescused that they were restored relatively quickly. Among these there were cases that became known of people who while at sea. distress lost 40 to 50 pounds in body weight; even a case was described where a person lost 5 stone; in spite of that all of them were restored to health. There is a possibility in such extreme cases, because of course in a condition of lack it is much easier, and one must not forget that in cases of sea distress many other things, such as weather and the lack of sleep and the like arc additional strain on the body.
Q Therefore, during your experiments you could assume with good conscience that your experimental subjects would not suffer any damage?
A Since the amount of the loss of water was constantly controlled the examination of the blood, urine, and weather were carried on daily, of the metabolism, the lungs, etc. we could, of course, recognize the limit of non-tolerance and therefore I could be sure that he would not go beyond the danger limit. Actually none of my experimental subjects was forces to that sphere. I calculated the loss of water very carefully, and of course gradually saw in so doing that many of my experimental subjects drank fresh water in addition time and again. With this secretive drinking of water they did not do a good service neither to themselves nor to me, not to themselves because the experiment lasted longer. In such a case until I knew with certainty what had calculated this disturbance of this experiment, and they did not do a service to me because a great deal of careful work was destroyed by that.
Q How were the experimental subjects supervised?
A In any case it was not as strict as can be seen from these incidents which I have just mentioned, that it would not have been possible for them to drink fresh water on the side, and in some cases it happened not in considerable amounts.
Q I have to ask you, does this circumstance itself that they again and again drank water does that not speak against the fact that these persons were volunteers?
A First I want to say that the circumstance that many of the experimental subjects did not drink fresh water on the side speaks for the fact that they were volunteers, and it does absolutely so, for if the possibility to drink fresh water is given and the person does not do so, in spite of that, it must be a volunteer. Moreover, on thirst lets it is an experience which is made daily that even the most intelligent patients time and again drink something on the side in between secretly. Thirst is one of the strongest impulses of nature and it is very difficult not to give in to it, and for that reason thirst experiments have to be carried on behind locked doors, and the doors of my experimental room were apparently not locked securely enough.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, in that connection I want to refer to Document Book 14, from the Document Book Schaefer, page 38, where Huebner, a well known export, speaks about these measures of locking the room. From my own document book I now want to submit Document 29, Document Book 2, page 108. I give that exhibit number 16.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the number of the document concerned?
DR. STEINBAUER: No. 29, Document Book 2, page 108, Exhibit 16.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that not Exhibit 15?
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes. Excuse me, please. It is No. 15, Your Honor. It is an excerpt from a very well known medical work of Professor Dennig, about the importance of water and the metabolism and nourishment of human beings. I do not want to read the entire excerpts, but I call attention to the center of the first page in which it says: "While the people are able, during the early days, successfully to fight their thirst with a good grace, their energy is insufficient during the later days; they devise extremely subtle means of obtaining water, see the case of Juergensen." Then on the second page I call your attention to the table of weights, in which the loss of weight is shown in a case, and in the summary at the end I call your attention to "2)" which says "the weight and size of the body decrease rapidly."
Q Witness, I ask you did you always terminate the experiments immediately when you found out that fresh water was being drunk?
A In the few cases where we observed that directly, yes, we did interrupt them. In other cases not always or not immediately. Of course, I often had the suspicion that this had happened, but it was not always possible to prove it immediately, especially in the first series of experiments. I was confronted with great difficulties. First, one had to make exact comparisons of a certain amount of urine and elimination of salt until one could ascertain with certainty. If the experimental subjects had in each case admitted it immediately that they drank fresh water and how much, then, of course, it could have been simple, but in this way we in many cases got friends which lead us on a long course, so that frequently we gained the impression that some salt was being retained, and water being saved up in the body. In other cases one gained the impression that not all of the salt was being absorbed, so that at times I had some doubts and thought that perhaps Berka's preparation does have an effect on the absorption of salt, therefore, I asked the experimental subjects again and again whether they had not after all had some fresh water, in order not to become a subject of deceit, but they constantly and stubbornly denied that, and therefore in many cases at the end of the experiment it was pushed out because if they had taken water the general condition was such a good one that no danger could be expected, no danger of any kind.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court is about to be in recess. I would like to as you if you can give the Tribunal any estimate as to the length of time your examination of the witness will continue?
DR. STEINBAUER: I believe that I shall be able to finish today.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court will be in recess.
(Thereupon a recess recess was was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed. The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. Witness, did the experimental subjects say that they had not drunk any water because they were afraid of punishment?
A. I assured them repeatedly that they would not be punished, either if they had drunk or if they had interfered with the experiment in any other way and no one was punished, not a single person. I merely asked them again and again to tell me the truth because by these evasions the experiment was made very difficult. It was sometimes impossible to form any definite judgment on the experiment especially when small amounts of water were taken.
The experimental subjects had an entirely different reason for keeping their minor and major sins secret from me. At the beginning, as I see now, I made a psychological mistake. I promised that those who did well in the experiment would later be given cigarettes in the form of a premium, as it were, and now they thought that the longer they held out in the experiment the better the experiment would be. Therefore, they tried to stay in the experiment as long as possible and so this prospect of getting cigarettes induced them to got water secretly, and this was the reason why some I caught when they were drinking water, in order to get the cigarettes volunteered again, without any compulsion from my side, to go through the experiment the second time.
Those were eight cases all together, those were people who had lost very little water because they had drunk fresh water during the first experiment, and they were cases which as I can show definitely had at least the same weight when they wore released as when they wore accepted.
Q. Now from the record of the trial I must show you Exhibit No. 139, the testimony of the witness Tschofenig. Ho says that you turned the experimental subjects over to the insubordinate ones over to the SS to be treated in the way customary in the camp, what do you have to say about that?
A. That never happened. If the experimental subject repeatedly denied having taken water that annoyed me and I scolded them, I admit that, but I never punished or had punished any one of them. No SS man ever entered my experimental room, none of my experimental subjects was ever turned over to the SS for punishment or to be made compliant and I cannot imagine why Mr. Tschofenig male this statement. Ho probably concludes from the general to the specific. He probably does not care in this case if he said something that is not true. At any rate he has not the shadow of proof.
Q. Mr. President, in this connection I should like to submit Exhibit No. 16, Document No. 16, on page 52 of my document book. This is an excerpt from the book, "The SS State," by Kogon, page 317-318.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, I must object to the admission of this extract by Kogon, in as much as this particular extract is taken out of its context, after this paragraph is contained in the document, in Beiglboeck Document Book No. 1. you will find in Kogon's Book, "The SS-State," that in subsequent lines Kogon emphasize the remarkable fact that this attitude - as set forth in this paragraph being introduced now - changed as soon as liberation came.
None of the expected acts occurred, and the prisoners behaved with remarkable objectivity. If at all the whole page of Kogon's book should be introduced to show the fact that the revengeful attitude that might be exhibited in this paragraph Dr. Steinbauer is now introducing, never actually occurred or the inmates didn't exercise such revenge. I think that this should be brought out in this particular connection.
THE PRESIDENT: I wonder if it could be agreed between defense counsel and the Prosecution that any extract from Kogon's book which has not been translated could be used and read into the record by either Prosecution or any defense counsel, and the whole book or all portions deemed pertinent by Prosecution or defense counsel could become a part of the record. I suggest that for consideration by the Prosecution and by the Defense Counsel.
MR. HARDY: Your Honors, I am not off hand able to recollect whether or not Kogon's book has been offered in evidence. Does the Tribunal recall that?
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think so, because it was not translated. We felt that was an unsuitable objection which might well be.
MR. HARDY: Now the introduction of this document, the paragraph which Dr. Steinbauer has extracted, when ho introduced this as the Beiglboeck exhibit, could at this tine the Tribunal accept the entire book rather than just this extract, then the entire book will be before the Tribunal and we can quote portions or sections thereof in brief or at other instances.
THE PRESIDENT: It was with that end in view that I made the suggestion which I made a moment ago and defense counsel might object if the book has never been translated but they could have it read to them and ascertain if the original of the book was in ----
MR. HARDY: The original book is in German, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: It has been translated into English?
MR. HARDY: I think the translations are available in English, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The whole book?
MR. HARDY: Yes, Your Honor.
DR. NELTE: For the defendant Handloser:
Mr. President, I should like to raise a basic objection against the introduction of the whole book, the SS State, by Kogon. The book has three or four hundred pages and has some very important matters in it, but material matters which cannot be checked. The witness Kogon when was on the witness stand here was asked the question, was asked concerning a definite fact in his book, he said I should like to emphasize, I am not being asked about my book here but want to testify merely to what I am asked here and what I answer here, I should like to point out that my request to nave the printed report of the meetings of the consulting physicians were not accepted, because they were to extensive and could not be translated. In comparison to that it is a big burden on us defense counsel, if we are now confronted with the question of finding the individual pages in Kogon's book of looking through the whole book and having to disprove statements in it. Therefore, I ask you not to accept the entire book in evidence but merely the pages from it, which are important in the eyes of the Defense and the Prosecution, and which can be certified so that we can answer the individual charges.
THE PRESIDENT: If the book has been translated and copies of the translation of the book can be made available to the Tribunal not as evidence out available to them for reference, then when either the Prosecution or any Defense counsel desires to use any portion of the book, copies of the protion and supplemented by any portions of the context which opposing counsel desires to put in could be introduced in evidence.
I suggest that matter for the consideration of the Prosecution and of the Defense Counsel. It is, of course, unfair that a mere few words out of the context be put in when the conteset may vary very greatly the meaning of the portion which is introduced in evidence.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, that is not the case here. It is only a psychological reference to the fact that the testimony of primitive people must be examined very carefully, because the people have suffered terrible things, that is what the paragraph means, and that is my purpose in submitting it.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course, counsel for Prosecution is of a different opinion, as stated in his objection and the Tribunal is not in a position to rule upon that matter, not having the context of the book before it. I will ask counsel for the Prosecution if he is aware whether or not the translation of this book can be made available to the Tribunal.
MR. HARDY: Yes Your. Honor, I am certain we can. I believe now Judge Swearingen does have one copy and I will make an attempt to get four or five more copies of the English and make them available to the Tribunal. If the Defense counsel could supply the Tribunal with the page number, this paragraph appears in Kogon's book so that it may be compared to the English, and then if the Tribunal desires to place any merit on this particular paragraph they will be able to ascertain where it was taken from and whether or not it is in our out of context.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection is over-ruled. This may be submitted. Prosecution may either furnish copies or furnish additional copies of the adjoining portion of the page, the context of which this is a part, and submit anything it desires in that line.
MR. HARDY: Thank you, your Honor.
DR. STEINBAUER: I shall read this short paragraph then, page 317 and 318. "The majority of those in the camps were filled with an inconceivable desire for revenge, the mental reaction to their helplessness. Tortured people racked their brains for new, greater, far more evil tortures which they would inflict sometime on those who now vented their cruel moods on them. This desire for revenge was extended to the whole national socialist regime and its adherents ...."
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want that marked as your Exhibit 16, counsel?
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, 16, please.
Witness, now what were the symptoms which you observed on the experimental subjects during the experiments? Please be brief.
A. In the first period there was the feeling of hunger in the hunger and thirst group because there was still enough available. From the third day on approximately this feeling of hunger was displaced by thirst and practically disappeared. With the lose of water there came a sudden drop in body weight. Therefore, thirst causes a bad appearance. The person becomes very thin, and , of course, to a layman the person looks much sicker while in reality there is merely a lack of water in the skin and the muscles. The skin becomes dry. There is no perspiration, the mucous membranes become dry, the mouth and tongue are dry and the eyes lose their shine and they burn a little. The secretion of saliva is reduced and eating becomes unpleasant. Then the water is lost from the muscles which brings about a hardening of the muscles and excitability of the muscles. There is a feeling of heaviness-in the limbs and a certain uncertainty in movements and also the desire to move as little as possible and to lie in bed. That has the advantage that the loss of water through the lungs is thereby reduced.
The temperature remains normal on the whole. Small variations of 37.3 to 37.5 can be observed in individual cases. There is constipation as is a typical symptom reported from cases of distress at sea. The drying of the palate makes a dry cough in some cases. For the first 2-3- days sleeping is still possible. Then it becomes interrupted and is an interrupted sleep but there is a short period of sleep and then awakening. And, therefore the subjects are sleeping almost somnolent during the day. This condition of dehydration has been described frequently. This occurred in the same way in all the groups which went without water.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, the Tribunal will be in recess for a few moments.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1330 this afternoon.
(Thereupon a recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 9 June 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
WILHELM BEIGLBOECK - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. Professor, how long did the experiments last?
A. That differed considerably. I said already that the group who received the de-salted sea water was in an experiment for eleven to twelve days. The thirst group remained in the experiment four up to six and a half, that is, up to the seventh day. The two people who remained in the experiment for six and half days had, as calculations showed, apparently drunk some fresh water in between. Of the group who drank a thousand cubic centimeters of sea water none showed results that were without doubt. Four of them must have drunk relatively small amounts of fresh water. They remained for four or five days in the experiment. Of the others who drank a large amount of fresh water, some by the liter, as we could calculate later on, most remained in the experiment six and seven days with the exceptional eight days and one, I believe, even nine days. In this case it was especially difficult to recognize immediately that he had taken in water and that for the following reason:
When I noticed for the first time by the amount of urine that the experimental subject had drunk water, because the amount of urine had, of course, increased, I reproached him about that. Thereupon, they adopted the trick to throw away half of the urine that they eliminated in order to deceive me in that manner. Through that I was caused to draw a wrong conclusion. In the examination of the urine it showed now that relatively small amounts of salt were eliminated. Thus I was of the opinion that salt was kept in the body and in that way water was saved.
In these cases, of course, the loss of body weight was small. It stayed the same. There was even sometimes a temporary increase in weight. In this case the condition of losing weight was stopped by this means and was made up again and also the experimental subjects felt fine and they did not show an increase or even showed a lessening of the dehydration symptoms.
After the event, of course, it is easy to say one should have noticed immediately all of that, but in the middle of the experiment it was not so simple as all that, especially since we were dealing with a preparation, the effects of which had not been clarified yet entirely, and one was not quite sure that an unsuspected effect of this preparation might appear. This experiment put us in a very difficult position in judging it and several times one could almost despair, especially because it was so difficult to prove that these people had taken in fresh water and because it was so difficult to get the experimental subjects to confess. The means by which they obtained water were, of course, many fold and everybody in the surroundings was helpful. Therefore, this experiment, at least for a large part of the sea water group, was to be regarded as a complete failure. Our fight against this constant drinking of water was a difficult one, not because I had perhaps not understood that a person if he is thirsty obtains water, but what I wanted to achieve was that these people should have honestly come to me and said, "I just couldn't stand it any more. Last night I drank a liter of water." Everything would have been all right and quite simple; it is quite clear that sea water makes you thirsty and that, therefore, the group with the thousand cubic centimeters of water, of course, was subject to this temptation the most.
On the other hand, the group with five hundred cubic centimeters of sea water, to a relatively large extent, yielded at least a useful result. There are some among them who certainly did not drink anything on the side and some who drank very little. They remained in the experiment five to six days. Those who had obtained fresh water remained seven, eight, or, a few of them, even nine days in the experiment.
Of all the groups that of the five hundred cubic centimeters of sea water was in the best situation because their loss of body weight was the lowest and there was hardly any experimental subject in this group who reached the limit of ten percent. The loss varied according to the manner of conducting the experiment from four percent to eight percent. Some of them drank so much fresh water that they were balanced at the end of the experiment and had the same water content as at the beginning of the experiment. In the two most difficult groups, in the thirst group and in the thousand cubic centimeters of sea water group, too, no one exceeded the limit of ten percent to, at the most, twelve percent of loss.
Thus, not a single experiment is included which advanced into the zone where one can really consider damage to the health of the subject. I made these calculations very carefully and I believe that for the manner in which they were made that I can take the responsibility before any scientist. I am convinced that the dehydration did not reach any dangerous extent in the case of any one of my experimental subjects.
Q. These last remarks you could repeat with express reference to your oath which you have sworn?
A. Yes, I can do so. As I have already stated, I made the calculations in such a way that I worked out the loss which came about through fasting with special consideration of the water balance of the Schaefer group. What remains is the water loss and that loss of water was calculated by me and in no case, as I said, did it amount to more than twelve percent. Thus, to the best of my knowledge and my conscience, did I calculates it and state it according to the truth.
Q. In the case of those experimental subjects, after the drinking of sea water, did they get diarrhea?
A No, not in a single case. On the contrary it was noticeable that practically all of the experimental persons were strongly constipated.
Q But Dr. Schaeffer reports that in Dr. Sirany's experiments diarrhea was observed.
A The difference between Sirany's experiments and my experiments was the following: The experimental subjects used by Sirany could drink sea water just as they liked and some of them drank large amounts at one time and that is at a time when the body still had sufficient water. Taken in such amounts the sea water has the effect of causing diarrhea. In our experiments, the experimental subjects received sea water in small amounts of 100 to 200 cubic centimeters per dosage, five times a day. The witness Pillwein has stated in the affidavit which the Prosecution has submitted as Exhibit No. 140, if I am not mistaken, in his statement of the 13 March 1946, stated before the Vienna police as follows: The participants were moreover in addition given daily four to five times a day salt water in amounts of one half to one quart all together. This shows that the amounts were not larger than 100 to 200 cubic centimeters per day. From the experiments undertaken by the Englishman Hay from the year 1884, it is known already that the salts which cause diarrhea, if one is in a state of dehydration already, do not have that effect any more, but in the case a stubborn constipation appears. Moreover, Sirany used water from the Adriatic which had not been examined bacteriologically and ours was guaranteed to be free of germs.
Q In the case of your experimental subjects, did they get fever?
A The highest temperatures which I saw in the sea water cases were around 37.5 centigrade, only on two cases immediately after the intravenous injection of hypertonic sugar solution on salt solution, there was a short rise in temperature, an occurrence which otherwise in practice is quite frequent after intravenous injections, but that is not the effect of sea water but the effect of intravenous injections of liquid that appears in every tenth or twentieth patient, and it is a short rise of temperature which lasts for about an hour and then it subsides again, but as to sea water itself nobody could get any fever from it.
Q What was the degree of temperature?
A I already said that they did not go above 37.5.
Q Why then according to statements of witnesses, were those patients delirious with fever, the experimental subjects?
A Normally there was a delirium from fever if a patient has a 41 degree temperature, over 100, but where it is 37.5 or even less, one cannot have a delirium from the fever. Such testimony is a shame for the witness, otherwise there was also no delirium in any case, not in a single case, the delirium which usually comes more from drinking than from thirst after the drinking of sea water, can be observed once in a while in the most rare cases, but in such a degree of dehydration as occurred in my experiments they are not possible and actually they never occurred.
Q Witness, how did the ending, the interruption of the experiments occur?
A I either discontinued the experiments by the intravenous injection of liquid, or in the thirst group, I gave them a solution of salt, light hypertonic salt solution, because causes the salt solutions to remain in the body longer than water and therefore, the body depots are filled up with a more lasting effect. In the sea water group I either only gave sugar solution or sugar solution mixed with hypertonic salt solution, and that is the reason why some individuals from that group had eliminated more salt than they had received, which was unusual, so that inducing small amount of salt could be undertaken here and regarded as useful. A large number of the experimental subjects, at the moment I cannot remember their number, discontinued the experiment, simply by drinking water or milk.
In the intravenous administration of a liquid, I sometimes administered some calcium.
Q For what purpose did you add the calcium?
A One knows from results of experiments that through administration of salt over an extended period calcium is eliminated from the blood and in order to prevent such a loss or salt or lowering of the salt content, I added some calcium.
Q Witness, what was the effect of these injections or the drinking of water?
A The effect was extra ordinarily impressive. If, in the case of the intravenous injection, one injected about 150 to 200 cubic centimeters, the feeling of thirst stopped already, and the entire appearance was, after about one quart of liquid had been administered, changed strikingly. It is true that the thirsting person through his loss of water, looks bad, his eyes are sunken in. This and a certain lassitude and a fatigue, lassitude in the muscles, was strikingly ended with the injections. I know that only with the giving of sugar and other insulin shots I noticed such a quick effect.
Q Now I have to tell you that the witness Bauer, in the exhibit which was not given under oath, testified exhibit No. 138, that the interruption took place always only when the experimental subjects were already in agony. What do you have to say to that?
A The witness Bauer was perhaps three times at the most, for perhaps half an hour, at my station. He himself has said in his statement that the experiments lasted four to six days, at the time when he was there, there was at most only 500 cc of sea water in the experiment, and after this amount had been administered nobody is in agony after 6 days. That does not exist. I know the witness Bauer and I am convinced of nothing more than that he doesn't know at all what agony is, but a lay person of course, likes to throw about medical terms. What did occur in the experimental person was a so-called apathy, a certain somnolence, what is called sleepiness, but what one means by agony, death agony, one means the condition of somebody shortly before dying in his last moments, and now the witness Bauer said after the injection of the serum, as he expresses it, the experimental subject revived, all of them, so it is a considerable medical achievement if one can recall forty people from the last gasp.
Q The witness Bauer, who is a business man in a civilian profession, says further that he saw symptoms of heart weakness. What do you say about that?
A The witness Bauer developed the electro cardiograms which I took. He developed the films. I suppose that on that opportunity he also examined them like an expert. What occurred in the case of the experimental subjects was a slowing down of the pulse. This is called in German medical literature "Schonstellung", it is a protective position of the blood circulation. This is supposed to express that through the slowing up of the heart beat as in the case of any case of deficiency, as in the case of hunger a certain economic using up, that is a quieting down of the circulation results. This theory I believe is the correct one but not the one that Herr Bauer accepted.
Q. Now the same witness says that many of them get rabies and similar things?
A. There was no case of rabies, not a single one. The case of rabies has not been described in literature about sea distresses or later depressive conditions. In healthy persons psychiatric symptoms do not belong among the symptoms of thirst but there is a certain nervousness and excitableness as in any condition of deficiency. Those are all part of the thirsty person's reaction.
One single time it happened that one of the experimental subjects went to the male nurse and cried for water. I was in the adjoining room and I heard these loud voices so I came cut and asked what was going on. I was afraid that in his nervous condition the person would perhaps continue to scream. I asked him to return to his bed and with the held of a linen bandage let him be fastened and asked for the termination of the experiment, which took place in a few moments. The experimental subject remained in bed absolutely quiet and he was told by me that the experiment would then be terminated. I said nothing more and he waited quietly until the injection was prepared. From this incident, which from a medical point of view, was quite insignificant, the case of madness was made out of that. In this case of madness, finally it has been said that I had the person tied to his bed as a punishment. Such an extraordinary statement shows, how one can distort facts which are quite insignificant and how they can be misinterpreted to have motives of ill will.
Q. Were there any other incidents which occurred during the experiments?
A. Otherwise I only experienced cramps in the muscles which lasted for a short period. They are called tetanoid or tetanorphous attacks, which can be observed in any case of deficiency of water, which are conditioned by the drawing of water out of the muscles.